Developing F Function?

[dark]

Is there anyway to develop my F function?

 

[indigofireflies]

Falling in love seems to do it pretty proper for most people.

 

[gruesomebrat]

Considering the last thread that I remember dark starting, which was all about his depression following a pretty bad breakup, do you really think that falling in love is high on his priority list, indigo?

 

[SkyWalker]

dont see people as objects (like a thinker), see only the interaction between you and the person (like a feeler). the interaction is the new "object" from now on... (work with the interaction instead of the person)

close your eyes, meditate, and bang... do it... SEE THE INTERACTION, the interaction is what moves you, nothing else, no other rationalities exist from now on..
thinking interactions is thinking about liking and disliking, if you like it you go along, if you dislike it you oppose.
you never let interactions pend (thinkers tend to let an interaction pend, because they don't feel the interaction at all). feelers think thinkers are dead inside when thinkers keep interactions pending. for a feeler every interaction must be settled, either as in liking it and allowing it, or in disliking it and opposing it.

even when the people are gone, you still feel (=think about the interactions of) their ideas and you act upon those ideas which keep on bugging you instead of your own normal self-made ideas/rationalities.

the universe (of a feeler) is conflict, all interactions are a form of conflict, and you must settle them as a feeler! Allow them or disallow them, but never ignore them (thinkers ignore them), they are not a waste of time, they are superimportant (thinkers think they are a waste of time).

when your new superpowers aren't so super and everything goes wrong in your life because of "feeling", its because yours are primitive/childish/underdeveloped.... all the stereotypical things that you hate about feelers will come out.... but keep on going... bite through it so it develops

 

[dark]

Sounds complicated. Sounds odd, I had thought the person would be more important than the interaction with the person, but I guess that is because I am a thinker, not a feeler... will try to do this, it does seem odd, but I did ask for this.

 

[SkyWalker]

just do it

 

[Bird]

Think of things relating to others.


"It's seven am for me. Four am her time. She doesn't go
to bed early. I'm really upset and I need to talk to
someone and she's probably the only one awake.
But if she is asleep? What if you wake her? All to
whine and complain? You would be so upset if
she were to call you at four am to complain about
things you cannot change. You're so selfish and stupid.
Do not call her. She'll only be inconvenienced."

blah blah blah


You get the picture. You put others first.

 

[BigApplePi]

d. To add to what Skywalker said, we are ALL feeling. Try to guess what the other person is feeling. Think on it. Then interact with their feeling after thought. That is advice for anyone including me.

 

[SkyWalker]

actually i said something subtly wrong: "see the interaction", it is not about seeing it (because seeing it is a perception function, not a judging function).
of course it is about judging on that interaction, taking action on it, instead of just seeing it.

but you have to see it too to be able to judge on it!! maybe some lagging perception function which you have to drag in there too!

anyway: take action upon the interaction as an object (feeling), instead of the person as an object (thinking)


feeling is not only about putting others first, you only do this if you like their intention in the interaction at that moment (if you value their task higher than your own task), if you dont like their intention (if you value your task higher than theirs) than you oppose it like you have never done before, without thinking, like a feeler!

 

[dark]

Sounds odd but thanks for the advise. Is this possible to do with all things when interacting with another person? This is really alien to me which is why I am wondering all these questions. I tried some of these things in the past two days, really odd doing it(things SkyWalker mentioned).

Also never thought about interacting with what people feel. I usually work on how they think. Will have to try the feeling part. I think I have a good ability to tell what others feel, like say understanding their mood in things from how they act and speak or write, I just never took much notice in it and worried more about why they were thinking that way or feeling or whatever.

So should I be more concerned with the feelings they have or the why they have them?

 

[EyeSeeCold]

This thread is BS.

Think of things relating to others.


"It's seven am for me. Four am her time. She doesn't go
to bed early. I'm really upset and I need to talk to
someone and she's probably the only one awake.
But if she is asleep? What if you wake her? All to
whine and complain? You would be so upset if
she were to call you at four am to complain about
things you cannot change. You're so selfish and stupid.
Do not call her. She'll only be inconvenienced."

blah blah blah


You get the picture. You put others first.

This makes sense and is useful for developing one's empathy, but doesn't help one develop control of one's emotions and feelings and the ability to accurately perceive and judge other's emotional states.

 

[BigApplePi]

So should I be more concerned with the feelings they have or the why they have them?

Pondering why people have those feelings is good for you. What you do about it in interacting is another matter. People's feelings can run deep. They may resist psychoanalysis and prefer sympathy instead. I don't think one can know if another's feelings run deep unless you get to know them.

 

[dark]

@ EyeSeeCold, so you don't believe it is possible for a person to consciously improve their self? Or do you mean the advise isn't correct?

Also I think this whole idea is way over my head. I am trying to grasp it but maybe it will just happen naturally with time like some of the older people have mentioned in other threads. It would be like me learning to notice things, which I can't seem to do either.

 

[EyeSeeCold]

@ EyeSeeCold, so you don't believe it is possible for a person to consciously improve their self? Or do you mean the advise isn't correct?

Also I think this whole idea is way over my head. I am trying to grasp it but maybe it will just happen naturally with time like some of the older people have mentioned in other threads. It would be like me learning to notice things, which I can't seem to do either.

I do think it is possible to overcome insecurity and to be able to develop your understanding of other people's feelings and how you should appropriately react, but it would be have to be through wisdom gained through experience not learned knowledge. There are some things in this world you have to understand for yourself because they can not be adequately explained. It's also like training your muscles, you cannot build them by reading about the different methods and other's experiences, you must work out yourself.

 

[dark]

Ah very good example. So one must experience. So I guess the only thing to do is just throw myself into things and learn from each experience. Guess that is how most people do it anyhow eh? So just contact as many people as possible and work the relations with each, make friends, enemies, etc. That is how the world works I guess.

 

[SkyWalker]

yes, the only way is to do it.

this is a fun way: go sit in starbucks and talk to everybody like you are a very talkative person. then try to work with the interaction instead of the person. try different things, seducing the other by spawning this great conversation in the air, dominating the interaction, etc.
dont talk about thinkers stuff!! be PLAYFUL
also talk to feelers only, or you'll end up in debate with a thinker.
most girls are feelers. talk to girls
try to keep talking to people for 30 minutes, without pressing eject.
it can result in dates with cute girls too btw.


just do it
(right now you are only thinking about it, that only makes your thinking function stronger and the rest more lagging).

you are INTP, you see possibilities, thats why you can always change yourself. (even if everybody would say its impossible)

don't let the self-doubt of INTP stop you, just let it work for you: help you push you away from your current situation

 

[dark]

You are right the more I think about this the more I become confused.

Um how do I talk about non-thinker stuff? I am really not sure if I have ever done this, I probably have but not much, should I talk about people or myself or the person or what?

I am becoming very excited about doing these things, but I will have to let the excitement exist until I get to go somewhere. The idea of interacting with people for a purpose other than my normal purposes is intriguing.

 

[SkyWalker]

empty the mind, dont be so serious, just tease them with arbitrary stuff, play, have fun

you should wear a belt that delivers a high voltage shock to yourself everytime you get serious!

or....try it on alcohol once and then try to simulate the same mood again later without alcohol (dont want to make you alcoholic).

 

[dark]

I tried alcohol a couple years ago, I will admit I had never been able to escape my mind like that. I am not sure how to replicate that but I can try, never thought to replay the thought process in my head, if I can I will tell you the results.

 

[gnome]

Is there anyway to develop my F function?

Its a slow process for me. I don't know how to relate it to you. I have made people cry and not even realized what I did. I used to be a really really obnoxious asshole to everyone. Simply because I didn't care about feelings. Life shows you that feelings are important at times.

If we're going the drug route alcohol does reduce inhibitions and makes you more open to opening up. I have drank so much alcohol that I can control it though. People of the feeling type who get drunk with me can't believe I'm drunk. They're like I don't even believe you're drunk.

Esctasy (MDMA) I am told has given some INTP's a profound connection with their feeling side. I have never tried it because I don't want to get wasted on MDMA and become an emotional wreck. I hate being out of control of my emotions/feelings.


Yeah girls tend to be the best route. In my experience it takes a pretty patient girl to deal with an INTP "romantically". All the girls I have had in my life really had to take over on the feeling side of things. They were usually drunk whenever we opened up to each other. That's probably where I'd start if I were you. Get with a girl and get drunk together. Usually its best if there is more than just you two at first. Like a party situation. Make sure she gets hammered out of her mind on some cheap vodka. If I were you I'd watch how much you drank because early on in my drinking career I fucked up. I would go into ramblings of my theories and thoughts and that isn't what is going to help.

Alternatively you can just go get a gram of some cheap blow and rail that whore like a savage. If you don't believe me find a gram of some powder cocaine. Invite a girl over. Both of you do several lines. See what happens within 1-2 hours.

Last time I did the cocaine method I also had GHB which some use as the "date rape" drug. It was sitting on my fridge and she was like what's this? I was like GHB. She was like cool and measured out a heroic dose and fucking drank it. I was like .....

I never have used GHB as a date rape thing. I used it to get wasted on myself.

 

[Lobstrich]

Is there anyway to develop my F function?

Why would you want to do that? Or are you just curious?

 

[Jchazard]

As an INTP, consider people's feelings more. For instance, don't state facts, but be wary of how people may perceive these facts and be diplomatic about stating them. Also, by falling in love or loving a family member or friend you will naturally consider their emotions more so this may be a good place to practice. Just consider how you feel and how others would feel instead ofhow they think versus how you think. Try and do it with a very emotional person and read them. It's not wrong to use your thinking preference at first to develop your F function as long as your seriously considering emotion as the top being top importance in your decision making. This will honestly just come naturally if you care about a person enough.

 

[Jchazard]

Why would you want to do that? Or are you just curious?

Why wouldn't you? By saying you don't want to learn another aspect of your personality you're basically saying you don't want to grow as an individual. That's like saying as an ENTP intuitive you don't want to develop your sensing function. That would mean you'd never learn your fourth function of introverted sensing and will never grow to be your true self. It seems foolish not to develop your whole personality and only see one side of a give situation. As the buddhists say, moderation is key. If you were truely an objective INTP you'd allow yourself to consider both sides of a situation in making descisions and develop your feeling preference.

 

[Jchazard]

Its a slow process for me. I don't know how to relate it to you. I have made people cry and not even realized what I did. I used to be a really really obnoxious asshole to everyone. Simply because I didn't care about feelings. Life shows you that feelings are important at times.

If we're going the drug route alcohol does reduce inhibitions and makes you more open to opening up. I have drank so much alcohol that I can control it though. People of the feeling type who get drunk with me can't believe I'm drunk. They're like I don't even believe you're drunk.

Esctasy (MDMA) I am told has given some INTP's a profound connection with their feeling side. I have never tried it because I don't want to get wasted on MDMA and become an emotional wreck. I hate being out of control of my emotions/feelings.


Yeah girls tend to be the best route. In my experience it takes a pretty patient girl to deal with an INTP "romantically". All the girls I have had in my life really had to take over on the feeling side of things. They were usually drunk whenever we opened up to each other. That's probably where I'd start if I were you. Get with a girl and get drunk together. Usually its best if there is more than just you two at first. Like a party situation. Make sure she gets hammered out of her mind on some cheap vodka. If I were you I'd watch how much you drank because early on in my drinking career I fucked up. I would go into ramblings of my theories and thoughts and that isn't what is going to help.

Alternatively you can just go get a gram of some cheap blow and rail that whore like a savage. If you don't believe me find a gram of some powder cocaine. Invite a girl over. Both of you do several lines. See what happens within 1-2 hours.

Last time I did the cocaine method I also had GHB which some use as the "date rape" drug. It was sitting on my fridge and she was like what's this? I was like GHB. She was like cool and measured out a heroic dose and fucking drank it. I was like .....

I never have used GHB as a date rape thing. I used it to get wasted on myself.

NO NO NO

Seeking drugs and alchohol to help yourself in an uncomfortable situation whether it be socializing for extroversion and feeling or numbing your depression, wither way is a HORRIBLE idea. These should just be take for fun and if you do it to compensate for a part of you thatisn't there you will naturally become unhealthy and possibly even dependent on it. My advice is to go to Barnes and noble, and pick up a book on EMOTIONAL/SOCIAL INTELLIGENCE. Or just about considering others and their feelings in the Self Improvement section. I think the EI or SI you might findmore interesting as an INTP though. I guarantee if you get a book to teach yourself and practivce with someone you love you will be able to consider others feeling much better in a give situation where it is required.

The best way to become more confident in a social situation with others emotions is to teach yourself from others experiences by reading and then figure it out for yourself how to best manipulate the information.

If you looke at it as a place to experiment different topics you've learned about emotions and not looking at something completely foreign it will just start to be noticable that you subconciously begin considering others feeling more.

A BOOK I HIGHLY RECCOMEND is "How to Win Friends and Influence People." That's probably your best bet.

 

[BigApplePi]

Alternatively you can just go get a gram of some cheap blow and rail that whore like a savage.

Hi gnome. I just had to pick out that statement of yours because I wanted to reflect on its meaning. I will give you an impression because I want to.

Sure you can do that. Self-indulgence is fun every once in a while. Note this thread is supposed to be on developing the F function though. Doing that is not developing much if it just operates as a stand-a-lone. If you get caught with the law or critical people or some twinge of conscience that enjoyment won't do you well and it will be gone and over with replaced by possible anguish. Credits are due for telling us ... that does communicate your feelings which is good.

Any comments?

 

[Lobstrich]

Why wouldn't you? By saying you don't want to learn another aspect of your personality you're basically saying you don't want to grow as an individual. That's like saying as an ENTP intuitive you don't want to develop your sensing function. That would mean you'd never learn your fourth function of introverted sensing and will never grow to be your true self. It seems foolish not to develop your whole personality and only see one side of a give situation. As the buddhists say, moderation is key. If you were truely an objective INTP you'd allow yourself to consider both sides of a situation in making descisions and develop your feeling preference.

You say learn and you say develop. They are two different things. I would not want to develop my F, I like T, I like logic, I like objectiveness.
But what I would want is to learn F. Which wouldn't require me to embrace it, but I would still know alot about it.

 

[BigApplePi]

Damn. That's the 2nd time I lost my message because "your token has expired" and I forgot to save it. Here goes again:

There are more issues in developing one's F function than just being sensitive to other's feelings. There is the expression of one's own feelings in the presence of others. That is where I certainly fall short especially with my wife. It's the old complaint that "men don't show their feelings" thing. There is a reason why INTPs don't easily show their feelings. Right?

I am currently visiting my sister in another state so I can't easily go into it right now. Another thing is Skywalker has said some interesting things which I can't exactly go along with or needs to be added to. Later ... ?

 

[Solitaire U.]

Postpone love and focus on impregnation...I guarantee you'll be up to your neck in F-function within 9 months.

Consider yourself warned...

 

[nyaneko]

Traumatic experiences.
Love experiences HEAPS AND HEAPS AND HEAPS (not necessarily sexual).
Watch movies.
Watch tv shows.
Watch girly shit.

 

[Jchazard]

You say learn and you say develop. They are two different things. I would not want to develop my F, I like T, I like logic, I like objectiveness.
But what I would want is to learn F. Which wouldn't require me to embrace it, but I would still know alot about it.

Lol they're pretty much the same thing in the way I intended to use them. Learn as in learn to use. Logic is beautiful I couldn't agree more. However, by simply learning facts about emotion you aren't learning your feeling preference. And by developing your feeling preference that doesn't mean your logic becomes flawed in any way. It means you've fully developed the thinking preference, AND fully developed the feeling preference. It doesn't meet in the middle here like it's shown on the mbti tests to type you. By learning both functions you become equally efficient in both and can therefore make better decisions and are a more complete person who has adapted to situations where one function takes preference over another, for instance socially. You can have the most logically argument in the world but in the end if you can't consider another's emotions when explaining it they'll probably refute it. Therefore, by developing your F function you learn how and where to use your logic in a social setting. If it isn't desired by you now, you will desire it later in life. Eventually you will use your logic and realize how important and influential emotions are in life.

 

[Jchazard]

Damn. That's the 2nd time I lost my message because "your token has expired" and I forgot to save it. Here goes again:

There are more issues in developing one's F function than just being sensitive to other's feelings. There is the expression of one's own feelings in the presence of others. That is where I certainly fall short especially with my wife. It's the old complaint that "men don't show their feelings" thing. There is a reason why INTPs don't easily show their feelings. Right?

I am currently visiting my sister in another state so I can't easily go into it right now. Another thing is Skywalker has said some interesting things which I can't exactly go along with or needs to be added to. Later ... ?

I agree with Skywalker also. But Fe is not expression of emotion nor is Fi. It is considering the emotions of everyone in a given area and trying to have them all maintain the same one of choice. Your inability to express emotion is probably due to lack of confidence in it's underdevelopment.

 

[Solitaire U.]

...which is why I recommend starting with infants...

 

[nyaneko]

Firstly, there is Fi and Fe.

Fe = Extraverted Feeling aka social abilities
Fi = Introverted Feeling aka your morals, what you value, what you think
(not to be confused with Ni introverted intuition = imagining a different future/possibilities)

If you want to work on social abilities Fe then you should go out meet people... watch emotional dramas... which consists of EXPRESSION your emotions because communication is important in a relationship... and UNDERSTANDING other people's emotions by observing... deciphering body language/ facial expression / tone and actions... dont be too shy.

Fi ... this is the hard one... you have to find out about yourself. You can do this by going to different places experiencing new things finding out wht you're comfortable with and what not... ugh... kinda useless... but really hard.

Infants are a good example if you want to understand natural and human instinctual emotional responses or cognitive activity.

 

[Solitaire U.]

The impression I get from your astute explanation is that Fi is a mental disorder.

 

[Jchazard]

Fi- Good vs bad. Fi is very subjective. With strong Fi, you can read a persons beliefs, morals, likes, etc and judge EMOTIONAL DISTANCE from another subject whether it be a person or thing based on the vibe. How much you like it, how much it feels right, how much something pertains to your person.

Fe- judges EMOTIONAL ATMOSPHERE. Takes all individual vibes in a given area into consideration. For instance, the mood or feel of a room. This function tries to maintain a certain emotion based on all the connection of individual vibes or atleast notices it. That doesn't mean it needs to do anything about it but odds are it will. If one person is ruining the atmosphere, Fe will jump in and keep everyones mood up or that person in specific, giving off a greater vibe from the atmosphere to counterbalance the individual vibe. Those more experienced in this can generate different emotions not just enthusiasm. Manipulation of emotion, not so much expression.

 

[SkyWalker]

Oh please! Don't perplex people with that "emotional atmospheric" crap. I hate those kind of weasel words.

It is simply like this:
-------
Both Fe and Fi either oppose/hate/allow/dislike or cooperate/love/like, they judge like that. (Ti/Te is indifferent to liking/disliking )

So Fe/Fi split the world in good and bad.

Fe is the how of feeling, Fi is the why of feeling

Fe is grounded in the application of it's effect (e.g. how). For example: An Fe person opposes if it can oppose, e.g. if its useful/applicable, no matter whether truthful or not. Fe doesnt care about subjective truth, only if it can get away with its application.
Fe people can be annoying because they can be stubborn to you even if you have the truth backing you up. If they can oppose your truth because the power is on their side, then they will always use that power. They think its smart to just use what you can use, no matter if they are actually right (to them it feels right).
Fe can also cooperate with the weirdest things (religion), just because everybody does that and it gives benefits to cooperate at that moment.

Fi people can also oppose or cooperate, like Fe's, but only if it comes from their heart, no matter what society thinks.

Fi people simply think WHY should I oppose/cooperate (they break rationalities down to the root and ground it there: grounded in the root intent of it deep down in their conceptual "heart")
Fi's UNDERSTAND WHY they feel.

Fe people simply think HOW should I opposse/cooperate (to have an effect in my benefit)
(they built rationalities up to the last branches with leafs and ground it there: grounded in the application of it)
Fe's KNOW HOW TO feel.


BTW my Fe description sounds kind of negative, but it is just as positive as Fi.
Playfulness, a positive trait, requires Fe for example: 'A guy that opposes a girl as a cocky joke, the girl actually likes it and is a bit attracted to him because of it.'
the cocky joke is actually just "applying it because it works", it's not something from the heart ,its application and thats attractive too, even funny and playful. How dreadful would it be if everything came from the heart

 

[Jchazard]

All you did was explain it in a different way. Someone could have understood what it was by reading either of our definitions. Also, by the way I explained it you'll actually use the sense. By your way an INTP might "use" Fe by using Ne. Which in the end doesn't clarify anything in the least.

 

[Observer]

Personally, I think I have taken a more backdoor approach to feeling. I keep in mind such things as insecurities, differing perceptions, perceived social and professional pressures, primal joy/primal anger etc. and to some extent logically arrive at an expectation of which feelings different people might have at any given point and act accordingly.

An example:

Imagine you are having a thinker type conversation/discussion with a feeler.

Since feelers do not take naturally to thinker type discussions, you should not be surprised if at some point the feeler gets tired from using their inferior thinking function and starts to default back on their more dominant feeling function. When this happens, he/she will start to focus on your general attitude rather than the validity of your statements. It becomes more a matter of "Are you with me or against me?" than "Are you making sense?". Using the thinkers' backdoor approach to understanding feeling, you must anticipate this and make sure that you give off the correct "I am on your side in this discussion" impression to avoid ugly conflict.

 

[dark]

@ Observer, that makes a lot of sense.

From what I have gathered thus far, to progress I need to worry less about whether the person is being logical, and more of being either on their side or against them. I think I am understanding it more.

 

[BigApplePi]

I thought I would relate this story. It is highly personal, but what the heck. Are we going to develop our F function properly or aren't we?

Some background. My wife and I are traveling by car and we have a GPS (Global Positioning System) we call, "Jillette" because of the female voice. It can be programmed to take various routes and this one was between our motel 12 miles away from a relative we were visiting. My wife (an IFxx) and myself (INTP presumably) had an argument. She knows how to get her way handling F and I am no match for her in this department. This happened a few days ago. We are still on the road, headed home. We both have laptops so I sent her this email. I changed only names. Feel fee to ask for its meaning if its not clear as I'm too lazy to explain first:

Subject: Can This Marriage be Saved?

Wife,

Certainly seemed in doubt last night returning to the motel outside Ann Arbor. I woke around 4:30 am, couldn't sleep to think about it. I may not be good with people, but according to the personality studies I should be okay at thinking. Perhaps I should give a try at thinking about what could be addressed in our marriage ... BAP style. I'm not a counselor but as long as we don't have one, I could try to take on the thinking role: that of theoretician. What do you say? Shall I try?

How would we understand what, if anything (BAP humor), is wrong? Remember my six tools for understanding? Which one or ones would apply? Hard to say. Maybe we'll find out later though I have a clue. Let me throw out something ... a word ... control. Let's try that.

Anytime any issue for action is taken, there is the matter of control. Who or what, if anything, should be in control? Our situation centered around "Jillette" ... or was it, how to drive home? We were using Jillette as our guide and using her ... shall I say ... badly. Suppose I start with her. How do I feel about her? If she were human, I'd say we don't have a rapport. We are not friendly. I say she is not "user friendly." I hate machines that are not friendly. I've failed (so far) to get her to work as best she should. You have succeeded far better than I. But the way I see it is you've done so by trial and error, not logic. To me logic is user friendly. Trial and error requires too much memorization, back tracking and error ... not user friendly.

Back to control. I ask this question: who, if driving, should be in control? I say the driver. It hadn't worked that way because you start out by programming her and expecting me to "follow orders." That doesn't leave me enlightened. Finally we hit on the "Destination" button. Until then we couldn't consistently determine how to locate and key in our previously set destination. That helped. Next is the one of three methods to get there. That's where I remain upset. I want to know how that works so I can pick ... if I'm the driver. No answer so far. We then fight over something centered around that. Also her language. "Turn right." To me, "turn right", means turn right right away. I may be wrong there. At night my eye is not on the screen. I fail to read the miles to go to turn right. I need to know that so I don't turn right right away. That is unsettling to me when I don't know and need to know. Unsettling is putting it mildly. Driving is a matter of life and death and very dangerous.

Another thing is all this upset doesn't mean I hate you. Anger, yes. But anger at what? Frustration. But not hatred for you. Back to control. Who should be in control when I am driving? I suggest ME. Everything should be directed toward my remaining in control. Driving is dangerous. I fail at control in following Jillette because I turn control over to you ... and you take it. That makes it worse and more frustrating because that means a separation in communication. When driving, communication can't afford error and delay. It has to be practically instantaneous.

But I'm rambling in this writing. Better send it off before the electricity runs out. Your battery is low and you may not be able to receive this.

BAP

 

[nexion]

Is there anyway to develop my F function?

What do you mean?

 

[dark]

@ BigApplePi, It seems in your email, you did focus on the F a little, but true to us T users, you kept the logic, but nice use of F there I must say. I must say this thread is working good for me, it may be only text, but I have made a couple friendships stronger I think from this advice.

@ nil, what it means is how can we better ourselves by communicating effectively with our normal logically ruled thought with those who don't normally think that way. Like many here said, to use F we need to oppose or join a persons point of view. It doesn't matter at all if we are right, all that matters is if we are interacting with the person and are either actively opposing or actively showing we will stand by their side no matter what. At least this is how I see it going.

It is about becoming a better you, developing all parts of your being, say take a car for instance. Sure it is nice if it had nice seats, sure it is nice if it has a lot of power, sure it is nice if it has nice handling, but if you over look the quality of the parts, which is a big factor in cars, the car can only last for a while. All the coolness of it wont last in the relationship of owner and car. When getting something that will cost you that much, you don't want to settle with second rate, you want something that has it all, you want a car that can handle the random strain you may put it under in heavy traffic, the constant stopping and going, the passenger load must satisfy good, the car needs to make you feel safe, you need all these things so it will last with you, it will be something more than just its normal dull counterparts of other automobiles. You want the ultimate machine, it must have everything you will need. Same with people, we want ourselves to have every possible edge, anything to help us personally is great.

 

[nexion]

I am just confused by what you mean by 'F function'. You are talking about developing the Feeling side of your personality, I presume?

 

[Moocow]

Can we actually "develop" functions in the first place, or do they just situationally adapt to changing degrees of necessity?

I knew an ENFP that claimed to be a "highly developed INTP."

Yes, her ability to openly promote herself was quite... "developed." Her debating and analytical skills were not.


It might not be good "development" for my extroverted feeling, but people that throw around ideas of progress with the assumption that we're all racing in the same direction or racing at all just rub me the wrong way.

 

[Jchazard]

Is Fe about how you relate to what's around you and Fi about how things around you relate to you?

 

[Moocow]

Is Fe about how you relate to what's around you and Fi about how things around you relate to you?

Fi is how the world around you is evaluated with feelings for decision making... sorta.

 

[SkyWalker]

BigApplePi:
Your email is not about feeling at all. You email is a about logic logic logic... you just stream out all your internal rationalities, you don't feel that the conflict should be settled, you don't address the settlement of the conflict at all, you just keep stating your own internal tasks.... you don't settle the conflict, you keep the conflict pending... you hope that she gets tired of the pending conflict and this way you think you win (but this isnt always the best solution, you can actually lose by this strategy as well)

read the email: where do you address her viewpoint in the email? nowhere! you mention only your internal tasks, you do not mention her internal tasks, you talk as if have no clue about her internal tasks (although you probably know her well and have all the clues but you refuse to use them)

this is the situation:
- you have internal tasks
- she has internal tasks
these tasks want conflicting things and are now in a deadlock situation: you want left, she wants right.

you keep on repeating left (you have repeated all the rationalities that run in you internally in the email, which are actually irrelevent for the settlement)
if she would be a thinker too, she would do the same for right>>>> then nothing happens! deadlock! both of you would not see the conflict, both of you will stay in the middle and keeping on pushing left/right until eternity

good thing she is not a thinker too, but a feeler. because someone has to settle the conflict, this is the only solution.
a feeler can settle this conflict with you only in 2 ways:
a feeler can say: A cooperation - ok whatever i'm tired, you win this time. (but i hate you now and will make you lose in the long run)
or a feeler can say : B opposition - fuck you and your rational crap (and you lose)

the more get of A, the more B will appear in the future (they will slowly start to hate you and block all your rational crap from now on)

the trick is to get A in the right way, not by rationalizing her into oblivion, but by going straight for the kill: address her viewpoint, internalize her own tasks instead of yours and pretend that you are her and how she can go from her tasks into yours in a smooth way? from her viewpoint! (simulate her tasks in your mind)

and sometimes when you simulate her tasks in your mind, you will also find out that she is actually right... and then it's you who has to change your internal tasks yourself. but this is something you can only find out if you actually simulate her tasks in your own mind. if you keep on running your own tasks into oblivion you will never find out and will always think you are right. even if its right what you say, but its only right from your viewpoint, then what good is it for another? why would they care?

in all other cases that you are in fact right: you have to change her mind in a smooth way

 

[BigApplePi]

Skywalker. Your feedback is much appreciated.

Let me quote this from what I said, "Another thing is all this upset doesn't mean I hate you. Anger, yes. But anger at what? Frustration. But not hatred for you."

When she read my whole email, she said my quote was all that mattered to her. I had listened to her and she was upset because my attitude (anger) gave her the impression I hated her. THAT was what bothered her. She had felt my frustration with the GPS meant I was against her. Later she admitted she was trying to take control. Today all those feelings are gone. I let her program the GPS which I don't like and am slow to learn and she is good at. I drive and we've driven the same route a few times since the blowup without conflict.

From my story, Skywalker, it may not be clear how I snuck in my feelings yet I think I got in enough to communicate with her. I used words like "frustration", "not hatred", and more when we talked later. She understands emotion and I have to let her know and did how I felt about each driving detail. As soon as she understood how I felt about things, she calmed down and was all lovey and dovey. Interesting for this thread?

Thanks again and I may not have addressed all your points.

 

[BigApplePi]

nil. I think "Developing F Function?" means, like all development, going into detail, enough to work on the whole picture so more is available to handle the thing. Since F stands for feeling here, that means being able to handle feeling in ALL situations, whether it is Fe or Fi or Fx. Maybe it is good for some to look at Fe versus Fi, but I have yet to grasp those firmly. I think of my feelings and others feelings and go with that.

If I were to state MY feelings NOW, they would be I LOVE to describe or address this stuff with the idea of covering or organizing or targeting all the angles. I like to see it done in others too. But I vaguely sense that I'm unaware of how others receive what I say. Perhaps I'm self-centered in this and get no points (or even negative points) after all, lol.

 

[SkyWalker]

just dont confuse feeling with everyday usage of the word feeling. i wish they'd rename feeling to "conflict settlement drive"