Dealing with "tough guys" (OR: Developing F for all the wrong reasons)

[joejoeb88]

Hey, new to the forum but have read quite a bit on MBTI.

After much deliberation, I concluded I'm more INTP than INFP. I think the decision would've been clear cut circa 8th-9th grade, but High School brought about situations which I felt developed my F for all the wrong reasons.

Up until High School, I'd always been quite individualistic, opinionated, and unwilling to fake who I was for anything. I was quite weird and was often told "no one would ever say/think that but you." And I took it as a compliment.

After heavy marijuana use in 9th grade, I began to develop a fear of upsetting people. Especially "tough guy" types; I was just scared to death of getting into fights (i.e.: I didn't want to get my ass kicked). From there, my behavior became more and more designed to appease those around me. I stopped spouting off my own opinions and became an easy going free spirit, just willing to go with the group or the crowd. I became obsessed with understanding peoples emotions, in hopes that I could use this knowledge to further decrease my confrontations with them.

Inside, a part of me continued to be a thinker. It would always surprise my friends when I suddenly revealed my indepth opinion on the war in Iraq, or explain complex theories that they probably had no clue interested me. I showed an ability to learn things - video games, academics, etcetera - at an alarmingly fast rate, constantly working my brain to figure out how systems operated at a base level. But I repressed that so deeply and focused on making other people comfortable, even while it took a huge toll on my own mental health.

Taking the MBTI opened my eyes and helped me realize how much I've been faking these past few years. I've regained my "I don't care what you think" attitude, refusing to let other peoples emotions stop me from developing and expressing strong opinions. And while I don't enjoy hurting peoples feelings, I enjoy less withholding the truth or pretending to be something I'm not to spare them.

Yet, here's my age old problem creeping up again: How do I stop these asshole "tough guys" from catching feelings over my opinionated nature? So often I'll analyze a situation (or person, or idea), and simply admit my unadulterated, unchecked opinion of it. And just as often, a tough guy type takes offense to what I say. Of coure their first reaction is violence, and while I don't consider myself a total wuss, fist-fighting is absolutely not in my nature.

Has anyone else had trouble with this? Also, I'm fairly positive I'm INTP, but I'd be interested to hear if this sounds like prototypical INTP behavior. Obviously it's just one small droplet in the ocean of my life, but I'm likely a bit less educated on MBTI than many folks here.

(Specific story that brought this on: Girl on Facebook was complaining about things and being upset, I humorously (guess not) let her know that other people do not care about her ramblings and to get over it, next thing I know her boyfriend wants to kill me.)

In summary or for folks who don't care to read this whole post: Is it typical INTP behavior to develop a strong Fe out of fear of upsetting others? And do your strong opinions/intellectual nature lead to confrontations with "tough guy" types who you upset with your blunt analysis and opinions?

 

[Words]

I have it but not on the matter of safety but of intuitive concern to my outward social status. It's understandable since good communication requires respect and consideration. Fear is interesting though. I am socially weak but physical force is another dimension, therefore, I am more intimidated by popular people than muscular loners.

I often have no opinions and I simply believe in accuracy. Check the facts, create the theory, weigh the logic and if good, then good. If not, check again. Also, check with others and hear the basis of their opinions.

 

[joejoeb88]

I have it but not on the matter of safety but of intuitive concern to my outward social status. It's understandable since good communication requires respect and consideration. Fear is interesting though. I am socially weak but physical force is another dimension, therefore, I am more intimidated by popular people than muscular loners.

I often have no opinions and I simply believe in accuracy. Check the facts, create the theory, weigh the logic and if good, then good. If not, check again. Also, check with others and hear the basis of their opinions.

Hmmm.... sometimes I wonder if I'm truly F. It's so hard to figure it out.

I guess what I go back and forth with is that, while I do FEEL strongly about things, I generally only feel strongly about things I can argue with factual evidence. I feel strongly and passionately that the United States not having free universal health care is an injustice.. because _____________ (facts to back up my case).

Perhaps it depends on my definition of "injustice." I do take people into account there, how many people would benefit from one system over another Vs how much money it would cost. But is that being a feeler or is that just the only way to factually and logically argue such an issue?

How would someone who is for SURE an intp conclude which is the best health care system?

 

[Words]

Hmmm.... sometimes I wonder if I'm truly F. It's so hard to figure it out.

Read the cognitive functions. It'll make sense soon enough in that you will find consistency and pattern in your behavior.

How would someone who is for SURE an intp conclude which is the best health care system?

*You go with motivation first.

-What do we want: Better living conditions.
A possible way: Healthcare A.
Weighing: Pros and Cons.
Seeking other possibilities and anything for the promotion of health care, or in general, better living.

--You don't need emotion for this, you just need an objective.

*Personally, I'd rather deal with world poverty since I see it as priority. Also, it's more general, therefore, the possible ideas multiply.

 

[MrSandman]

I'm an un-confrontational INTP, as well. I'm not good at recognizing emotions such as anger or sadness, but I do everything I can to prevent them. I think this evolved from having parents who are HIGHLY confrontational. Figthing is simply a game to them. I'm very logical and level headed with my arguments against them, but they don't listen. They're always "right". In the last couple of years, rather than constantly reiterating my opinions, drawing out the conflict even further, I've just been locking myself in the bathroom until my parents cool off and (maybe) look at my argument. Realizing this, my mom recently blocked my exit from a room, arms crossed, grinning on the inside, frowning on the outside, ready for a battle that I never give her. I jumped out the window.

If an INTP such as myself is willing to go to such an extent, then I imagine others are as well. My answer to question 2 is that I simply don't express myself to individuals that can't handle it.

EDIT: I forgot to address your curiosity in whether or not being anti-confrontational leads to a development in Fe. I've been called the "Psychiatrist-type", since I'm good at analyzing emotions and taking an objective view on peoples' lives. I have to accredit this to that fear of conflict, as the prevention of anger, anguish, etc. has given me the skills to help others who are experiencing said emotions.

 

[joejoeb88]

Read the cognitive functions. It'll make sense soon enough in that you will find consistency and pattern in your behavior.





*You go with motivation first.

-What do we want: Better living conditions.
A possible way: Healthcare A.
Weighing: Pros and Cons.
Seeking other possibilities and anything for the promotion of health care, or in general, better living.

--You don't need emotion for this, you just need an objective.

*Personally, I'd rather deal with world poverty since I see it as priority. Also, it's more general, therefore, the possible ideas multiply.

Okay, but consider this - to whom or what do you place the most emphasis on? Meaning, are better living conditions inherantly the logical position? Or is it illogical/wrong to suggest everyone deserves equality in the health care system?

Same for world hunger.. I personally find it unsettling that many people own several yachts while millions starve to death on the streets. But is it logical to argue said billionairres tax money should be distributed to decrease poverty?

 

[joejoeb88]

I'm an un-confrontational INTP, as well. I'm not good at recognizing emotions such as anger or sadness, but I do everything I can to prevent them. I think this evolved from having parents who are HIGHLY confrontational. Figthing is simply a game to them. I'm very logical and level head with my arguments against them, but they don't listen. They're always "right". In the last couple of years, rather than constantly reiterating my opinions, drawing out the conflict even further, I've just been locking myself in the bathroom until my parents cool off and (maybe) look at my argument. Realizing this, my mom recently blocked my exit from a room, arms crossed, grinning on the inside, frowning on the outside, ready for a battle that I never give her. I jumped out the window.

If an INTP such as myself is willing to go to such an extent, then I imagine others are as well. My answer to question 2 is that I simply don't express myself to individuals that can't handle it.

My parents were VERY confrontational as well, especially my Dad. I spent many a night listening to my parents viciously scream at eachother, terrified in my bed for my Mother's safety. My Dad inparticular enforced constant mental and occasional physical abuse upon me. This culminated in a fist fight between us in that ever-so-impactful 9th grade school year (I'm a junior in college now).

 

[Words]

Okay, but consider this - to whom or what do you place the most emphasis on? Meaning, are better living conditions inherantly the logical position? Or is it illogical/wrong to suggest everyone deserves equality in the health care system?

Emphasis is placed on general understanding of specific human society. One most common goal is human survival.

Working on this objective, one must conclude based on reason to whether healthcare is necessary or not. In addition, identifying the most efficient choice. Most of the time, choices are difficult to determine. Still, 51% > 49%. Although there will be tough choices, there will be better choices.

It's not about "deserving", It's about the objective.

Same for world hunger.. I personally find it unsettling that many people own several yachts while millions starve to death on the streets.

Do you see this as injustice? It is humanity but likewise, the many people who strive to help. I also find it unsettling how you place so much emphasis on local healthcare.

But is it logical to argue said billionairres tax money should be distributed to decrease poverty?

This needs extensive research but if it does work for the benefit of the "objective", then why not?

 

[joejoeb88]

I'm an un-confrontational INTP, as well. I'm not good at recognizing emotions such as anger or sadness, but I do everything I can to prevent them. I think this evolved from having parents who are HIGHLY confrontational. Figthing is simply a game to them. I'm very logical and level headed with my arguments against them, but they don't listen. They're always "right". In the last couple of years, rather than constantly reiterating my opinions, drawing out the conflict even further, I've just been locking myself in the bathroom until my parents cool off and (maybe) look at my argument. Realizing this, my mom recently blocked my exit from a room, arms crossed, grinning on the inside, frowning on the outside, ready for a battle that I never give her. I jumped out the window.

If an INTP such as myself is willing to go to such an extent, then I imagine others are as well. My answer to question 2 is that I simply don't express myself to individuals that can't handle it.

EDIT: I forgot to address your curiosity in whether or not being anti-confrontational leads to a development in Fe. I've been called the "Psychiatrist-type", since I'm good at analyzing emotions and taking an objective view on peoples' lives. I have to accredit this to that fear of conflict, as the prevention of anger, anguish, etc. has given me the skills to help others who are experiencing said emotions.

very interesting and insightful

I find I have a clear understanding of what is bothering me emotionally, and exactly why it does bother me.. But I can never seem to just get over things. I try to look at a confrontation situation logically and I may even conclude I wasn't "wrong" in a given situation, yet that disgusting feeling still lingers in my chest.

The logic says one thing but my emotions can just take over and leave me miserable.

I'm also the "psychiatrist" among my friends, people always come to me with their issues and emotions.

 

[EditorOne]

I tend to avoid confrontation simply because it seems to call out a lot of emotions like anger that I'd rather not have to squelch. Sometimes it can go spinning off out of control and your body prepares for physical confrontation, calling up adrenaline. If there's then no burst of activity to burn off the adrenaline, it can leave me sick to my stomach for an hour or so.

 

[MrSandman]

very interesting and insightful

I find I have a clear understanding of what is bothering me emotionally, and exactly why it does bother me.. But I can never seem to just get over things. I try to look at a confrontation situation logically and I may even conclude I wasn't "wrong" in a given situation, yet that disgusting feeling still lingers in my chest.

The logic says one thing but my emotions can just take over and leave me miserable.

I'm also the "psychiatrist" among my friends, people always come to me with their issues and emotions.

I understand completely. I call it "undue guilt". I swear, if my mom were to tell me that she hated how blond I was, it'd hurt me over time. It'd take me awhile to just say "Hey, she has no argument... why should I be emotionally distraught simply because she is emotionally distraught?". I've been "letting go" of these situations quicker ever since I started doing neurofeedback.

 

[Oblivious]

In summary or for folks who don't care to read this whole post: Is it typical INTP behavior to develop a strong Fe out of fear of upsetting others? And do your strong opinions/intellectual nature lead to confrontations with "tough guy" types who you upset with your blunt analysis and opinions?

Developing Fe is something I personally consider essential to becoming a mature intp. You should be proud of yourself if you have managed to build it to a practical level. Know when to use it and when to keep it hidden.

There is a time to be namby pamby and there is a time to lay the smack down. This is very important. Being too accommodating of an adversary can be just as bad as driving him into a corner. It is one thing to be powerful yet merciful and quite another to be merciful yet powerless.

About tough guy types. There are really two kinds, one is the wannabe tough guy who just ends up becoming a bully who preys on those weaker then him and the real tough guy.

Ironically the real tough guy is less of a worry, as they respect those independent people who are willing to say no to them and don't give a damn about namby pamby stuff like feelings. Even if a muscular guy cared about those, he'd be too busy crying to be a tough guy. I am not telling you to be a jerk, only that if they want to test you, you should know how to stand your ground. If you do offend one, explain yourself in easy to understand terms. If you are convincing enough, their pride will not allow them to hurt you, since intps generally come across as honest people.

As for the wannabes, you really have to learn how to kick their asses because that is all they understand. How you do it is up to you, just as long as you put the fear of God in them. I will say it is worth it to put in a little physical training to this end. Most of them are too whiny to do any real training and will naturally back off from anyone with a hint of steel in them. However I will say it is more satisfying to crush their resolve to face you without a fight.

Ultimately it all comes down to your own determination and the skills/options you have. If you are not strong enough, then you just will have to take whatever punishment they feel fit to load on you, just or not.

If you truly want to be independent you will not be dependant on the good graces of others. Sure, its common sense to be on everyone's good side, but you would want a back up plan. Do not expect your manipulation to get you out of everything. Maybe it's just the way I was brought up, but I feel that a good man should be able to defend his honour with his fists if need be, because what you cannot defend is not yours.

There is justice in this world. I believe it is worth defending. Anger evolved for a reason. Know it, control it and use it and it will temper you. If you fear your anger, you ironically will be at its mercy. Accept it, and embrace it as your weapon. Since you will never be rid of it, you should learn to use it. Once you realise that, you will find it easier to keep a cool mind under stress since you are now channeling your anger instead of supressing it.

 

[Adamastor]

Developing Fe is something I personally consider essential to becoming a mature intp. You should be proud of yourself if you have managed to build it to a practical level. Know when to use it and when to keep it hidden.

That is something that have been happening with me, recently.

I have never thought about it this way :O, so I am not sure if I agree with you... For instance, I kinda of got a feeling of nostalgia of the days where I had no problems with Fe related stuff... But this is quite irrelevant, because

On the good side I have been more open to some interesting people who have been around me for a while and, more importantly, I have met interesting people who I haven't even noticed before.
(I even discovered that there were another INTP in usual environment! This was rather chocking ...)

In my opinion, the slow and gradual development of Fe, was somewhat like opening doors to my inner world, which was built based on info gathered for the real world, meaning that I simply saw nothing which was not in my own small world and after many years, I am not sure why, I was getting bored with this closed world, since it's growth rate (probably) have been slowing down.

Well, right now I feel like I am more aware of my surrounding and people, though it is strong the feeling of being far away from it, yet.

About tough guy types. There are really two kinds, one is the wannabe tough guy who just ends up becoming a bully who preys on those weaker then him and the real tough guy.

I have never had many problems like these, so my opinion may not be useful at all...

But I believe that from what I have seen of classes of people there will always been the pathetic ones that must prey on the weak, so they obfuscate their own conscious about their sad situation, what is natural I think...

Personally, I think that is the natural order of things: there are people who must meddle with others and there are others who have no interest in doing this; and is this situation, meddling has many meanings, one of those would be "preying" on the weak...

In this case, I agree with oblivious, since INTPs are indepent souls (or not?) they must stand by their own, by their own means. Meaning that if the problem is those who prey on the weak, you must not be labeled as weak, this can be done by confronting the opposition, because why would someone prey on the weak if real opposition is expected?

Well, I have not enough data about your current situation, but I believe it is quite probable that if you confront them, unless the "tough guy" is some kind of sissy, you are going to be beat up. The good thing is that if that happens at some cost, not in confortable way, they are probably not inclined to do it anymore, thus justifying your resistance...

Hopefully, no one is going to suffer critical injuries, but in some circumstances a fight can turn out pretty bad, especially if one of the parts goes for some "prohibited areas": lower body, head (well, head is normally okay, since it is the first thing you always protect), neck, etc...

Oh yeah, what I said is valid for 1 on 1, 1 on 2, 1 on 3 (max), above it you probably should protect your head, find a wall, and hope that the beating ends soon.

 

[Aristocrat Porn]

I call bullshit on your entire post. You claim to try and avoid confrontation but can't help yourself to not act like a dick?

Alright, if you are telling the truth about avoiding confrontation you are terrible at it and also terrible at social situations. If you are not, then I have no idea why you pretend it is so.




It does sound however like you are annoying and behave like an asshole in certain situations. You try to soften it by saying you have "strong opinions'. Well, if you could either keep them to yourself or at least voice them in a respectful manner, you wouldn't have anyone wanting to beat you up.

Now it sounds like you behave like that for some other reason, but for example in the facebook scenario you were entirely in the wrong.

If you don't like how she uses facebook, either tell her politely if you are close enough with her or just delete her. Being a major asshole just because you read something she posted when you weren't forced to do it will make people angry at you. You are in the wrong more than the boyfriend is.

 

[joejoeb88]

Actually you're right that post was largely bullshit. But it was designed (and dramatized) more to fetch the type of answers I wanted than to accurately depict the reality of my situation.

The part about standing up to people in an independent, autonomous way struck me and I actually used that strategy in the angry boyfriend situation. Worked out pretty well.

 

[Dunno]

Having an opinion doesn't makes you forced to express it.
You can develop it in your mind, ask other people to make them say what they think, and try to understand the logics of their way to think. This is what I do now, and it works well. As said Nietzsche : rumination.

What you think is not necessarily an opinion. It can be a truth or at least part of a truth. Plato operated a distinction between opinion and science : a true opinion is something that can change, become false, because you don't really know the deep things under the object you think about. An opinion became science (today we just should truth, as science has become something more or less different) stands at a more satisfying level of thinking.
Even if, while knowing a lot, you can still be wrong

 

[EditorOne]

"Having an opinion doesn't makes you forced to express it."

Just noting that the truth of this has stood me in good stead many times. It's called "bite your tongue, fool."

 

[LAM]

What you wrote on that facebook page was unnecessary. You have no right to interfere in other people's dealing with issues unless you know how you might be able to help them in a considerate and respectful manner or if they specifically asked you to help them . Even then don't talk in such a disrespectful manner (to their feelings,) unless they specifically ask you to be completely honest. Although in my opinion you end up looking like you are being just a huge asshole when doing that, so it'd be good for you to say the truth in a less hurtful and confronting way.
What you need is some Fe to stop that kind of behaviour.

Also I personally enjoy arguments and fights in certain cases (like when the actual argument is not actually serious, the two guys just wanna fisticuff for a while .) But in most cases, especially as you get older, fighting become very dangerous and unnecessary.

Edit: to answer your question, no I don't have Fe out of fear (mostly because I wasn't afraid of a bit of fisticuffs, whilst also trusting myself to know when to flee,) I developed Fe to be more considerate, likeable, respectful and succeed in life (in jobs, relationships, whatever.)

 

[nexion]

I find it perfectly possible to be heavily opinionated while still being easy-going and having a positive (albeit strained) relationship with the masses. Although, this could be quite different because I mostly don't hand around with people who I think would beat me up for expressing my opinion. Some would concede, few would try to debate me on it, and then most would simply not care. What a bunch of good-for-nothings I hang with. :P

So, basically... I have gone throughout my entire 17 years without having any motivation or means to develop my Fe at all. I am quite sure it is starving, most likely leaving you as an almost emotionless shell (but oddly enough, I'm perfectly fine with that). I generally don't hang with people who I could offend, but I'm sure I come off as quite (I realize I use this word entirely too much) arrogant to everyone around me. I'm one of the few people I know who use facts and objective means as a basis for opinions.