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Convergence of Extraterrestrial Life

Yellow

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I have no idea how to structure this idea in a succinct way because it's still in the "iffy" stages. I realize we aren't all bio geeks, but this isn't really too deep in the science (could easily go into the philosophy section), so everyone feel free to hop in and help me out.

The complexity of life on our planet can be attributed to five self-replicating chemicals. Adenine, Urascil & Thymine(5-methyluracil) depending on if we're talking about RNA or DNA, Guanine, Cytosine. They interact in very specific ways. Adenine pairs with Thymine (DNA) or Uracil (RNA). Guanine pairs with Cytosine. There is one exceptional instance that I can think of, but they cause deleterious effects (pyrimidine dimers).

These five self-replicating chemicals, like the rest of our bodies, like all organic molecules, are made out of some of the most common elements in the universe (outside suns). This point is important. While it is entirely possible that there is Silicon-based life out there or organisms using/breathing Phosphorous and Sulfur, it's far less likely. Those elements aren't nearly as abundant as Carbon, Nitrogen, & Oxygen. Further, Silicon is less capable than Carbon in forming complex, stable molecules. Sulfur is less aggressive than Oxygen in its chemical encounters, and Phosphorous is less flexible than Nitrogen.

It is reasonable to guess that life on other planets will most likely be made from chemicals that will be recognizable to us as "organic molecules". I.e., Carbon-based, with plenty of play from Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Hydrogen, and other elements acting as supporting characters. I'd be really excited if it turned out that Ca, Fe, Na, Cl, and other major minors were equally important in extraterrestrial life, but I suspect that they will be much more prone to variance.

It would also stand to reason that our nucleic acids were statistically more likely to arise than other, equally functional, but as yet undiscovered self-replicating genetic molecules. This is my weakest assumption, but bear with me. If C, G, A, T, & U formed here, rather than similar chemicals that could arise from similar conditions, it's reasonable to guess that it happened because those particular chemicals form and pair spontaneously more often in early earth-like situations, or they replicate with better integrity over time than other similar compounds.

Based on these premises, would it be reasonable to expect life on other planets to be genetically similar to life on ours (using some or all of the same chemicals as their genetic material)? (Though how fucking awesome would it be if we discovered more molecules that behaved as DNA and RNA do?)

We've already learned how to take nucleic acids and compile them to form a virus. We've already begun to use gene therapy. We already splice genes together to create genetically altered organisms. It's only a matter of time before someone successfully tinkers around and "creates" a genetic code. This, if successful and allowed to thrive, would be more than divergence. Given a few billion years and favorable conditions, it could proliferate into a world's worth of entirely new and foreign life.

Even if life on other planets was more boring than we imagined, using all or some of the same genetic materials, then it could still be very different from life on earth. But, if the conditions that encourage such chemical reactions to occur exist elsewhere as here, how different can it really be?

Okay, that's most of it, I think. Please excuse the mess.
 

Lapis Lazuli

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It would also stand to reason that our nucleic acids were statistically more likely to arise than other, equally functional, but as yet undiscovered self-replicating genetic molecules. This is my weakest assumption, but bear with me. If C, G, A, T, & U formed here, rather than similar chemicals that could arise from similar conditions, it's reasonable to guess that it happened because those particular chemicals form and pair spontaneously more often in early earth-like situations, or they replicate with better integrity over time than other similar compounds.

As an extension to the carbon based evidence, quantify this into a proposition and start looking for verification. I don’t know what it means, but I do know that this is where your intuition is leading you. If quantification is to precise at the moment, lead out the ratio’s of probable vs. improbable categories.
 

Pyropyro

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Yellow, we have already discovered amino acids and nucleobases inside the Murchison meteorite.

You might want to take a look at these findings ;) Bio-molecules may be more abundant in space than previously thought.
 

Yellow

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As an extension to the carbon based evidence, quantify this into a proposition and start looking for verification. I don’t know what it means, but I do know that this is where your intuition is leading you. If quantification is to precise at the moment, lead out the ratio’s of probable vs. improbable categories.
Wikipedia has a nice breakdown.
But for these purposes, according to the chart,
Carbon:Silicon is about 7:1
Oxygen:Sulfur is about 24:1
Nitrogen:Phosphorus is about 3:1
You also have to take their behavior into account.

Wait, was this what you meant? or were you talking about the chemical ratios as they may or may not occur primordial conditions?

Yellow, we have already discovered amino acids and nucleobases inside the Murchison meteorite.

You might want to take a look at these findings ;) Bio-molecules may be more abundant in space than previously thought.
Yay! thank you. I didn't know this! It's pretty exciting to see that there were base pyrimidines and purines in there. I mean, it is conceivable that uracil and a xanthine could form a primitive RNA-like strand, maybe. In the right conditions? It's been almost 10 years since I got my Bio & Chem degree. I have a few rusty spots. I'll look into it.
 

Lapis Lazuli

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or were you talking about the chemical ratios as they may or may not occur primordial conditions?

How would you structure this into semantics for a heuristic device to guide you through the process of discovering the relation between existing conditions on Earth and those on other planets and solar systems?
 

Yellow

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I have no idea. Is that necessary? Discovering the relation between existing conditions on earth and other solar systems would be as easy as "look and see" once we're able to explore within and without our solar system (or when things come to us). Otherwise, it's just extra work, right?

What would your idea for a semantics structure for a heuristic device to guide us through the process of discovering the relation between existing conditions on Earth and those on other planets and solar systems look like?
 

Pyropyro

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Yay! thank you. I didn't know this! It's pretty exciting to see that there were base pyrimidines and purines in there. I mean, it is conceivable that uracil and a xanthine could form a primitive RNA-like strand, maybe. In the right conditions? It's been almost 10 years since I got my Bio & Chem degree. I have a few rusty spots. I'll look into it.

Is it fine that I talk nerd?

Anyways, the problem about xanthine is that it lacks the NH2 functional group to bind with the other nucleobases. However xanthine can be derived from guanine through a certain enzymatic reaction. I don't know if said reaction is reversible though.
 

Lapis Lazuli

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It is reasonable to guess that life on other planets will most likely be made from chemicals that will be recognizable to us as "organic molecules". I.e., Carbon-based, with plenty of play from Oxygen, Nitrogen, and Hydrogen, and other elements acting as supporting characters. I'd be really excited if it turned out that Ca, Fe, Na, Cl, and other major minors were equally important in extraterrestrial life, but I suspect that they will be much more prone to variance.
...

Based on these premises, would it be reasonable to expect life on other planets to be genetically similar to life on ours (using some or all of the same chemicals as their genetic material)? (Though how fucking awesome would it be if we discovered more molecules that behaved as DNA and RNA do?)

But it’s not as easy as look and see. We have limited resources, and if those resources are to be used with justification, they should produce results that benefit humanity. So if you want to further the idea that there is potential for life to develop in other places in the universe we will have to show where and under what conditions are most fruitful for cultivation.

It sounded like this is what your conjecture was intending. So if you want to discover life on other planets, the question is: under the received view what methods of verification will allow you to correlate a “reasonable ... guess that life on other planets will most likely be made from chemicals that will be recognizable to us as "organic molecules".”
 

Yellow

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@ pyropyro
With the help of the internet, it's all coming back to me. It's a purine. Guanine breaks down into xanthine, adenine breaks down into hypoxanthine. Similarly, thymine breaks down into uracil. So reversing the process would require heat, nitrogen, and something to distract the oxygen molecules, so they can be replaced with the NH2 again (except for thymine to uracil. That just needs a little C and heat)
 

Yellow

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But it’s not as easy as look and see. We have limited resources, and if those resources are to be used with justification, they should produce results that benefit humanity. So if you want to further the idea that there is potential for life to develop in other places in the universe we will have to show where and under what conditions are most fruitful for cultivation.

It sounded like this is what your conjecture was intending. So if you want to discover life on other planets, the question is: under the received view what methods of verification will allow you to correlate a “reasonable ... guess that life on other planets will most likely be made from chemicals that will be recognzable to us as "organic molecules".”
I see. I hadn't considered the advancement of humanity nor justification for resources. I don't think there's any reason in particular for investigating anything, really, beyond curiosity and a general thirst for knowledge. I mean, what's the point of existing as cognisant creatures, if we aren't intrinsically motivated to understand the natural world?
 

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(Though how fucking awesome would it be if we discovered more molecules that behaved as DNA and RNA do?)
That would open up so many possibilities and configurations of mechanisms.
It's similar to hemoglobin and hemocyanin differences, both are oxygen carriers but are useful in different conditions, or even organisms without dedicated oxygen carriers. Maybe the existence of large obligate anaerobes, or hybrids on worlds with different elemental makeups.

I have little to add, besides reading all the news about exobiology and evolutionary models, not much can be said with certainty. It would be very interesting to see or prove how alternative mechanisms arise in different conditions.

I see Fermi paradox as somewhat key problem of whether life on earth was influenced by something outside our system, or was a purely spontaneous reaction of primordial forces and basic building blocks.
 

Pyropyro

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(Though how fucking awesome would it be if we discovered more molecules that behaved as DNA and RNA do?)

Xeno nucleic acids :) I'm not yet that familiar with these molecules but it seems that they can store genetic info within six bases compared to DNA's four.
 

Yellow

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Xeno nucleic acids :) I'm not yet that familiar with these molecules but it seems that they can store genetic info within six bases compared to DNA's four.
See, I should have been studying instead of musing. This is awesome.

What I can tell so far: Of the XNAs, there seems to be mixed success and newness. I mean the TNA and GNA look cool, but only the sugar backones are different, so the results are slightly less exciting. Peptide Nucleic Acids (PNA) seem to be pretty awesome and stable, but they seem to be overly large and complex. Oh!
Since the backbone of PNA contains no charged phosphate groups, the binding between PNA/DNA strands is stronger than between DNA/DNA strands due to the lack of electrostatic repulsion. Unfortunately, this also causes it to be rather hydrophobic, which makes it difficult to deliver to body cells in solution without being flushed out of the body first. Early experiments with homopyrimidine strands (strands consisting of only one repeated pyrimidine base) have shown that the Tm ("melting" temperature) of a 6-base thymine PNA/adenine DNA double helix was 31 °C in comparison to an equivalent 6-base DNA/DNA duplex that denatures at a temperature less than 10 °C. Mixed base PNA molecules are true mimics of DNA molecules in terms of base-pair recognition. PNA/PNA binding is stronger than PNA/DNA binding.
I see Fermi paradox as somewhat key problem of whether life on earth was influenced by something outside our system, or was a purely spontaneous reaction of primordial forces and basic building blocks.
I'm totally with you on that one. I really want to lean toward the latter, but I know my information is limited, and that it affects how I see the possibilities.

But, it could also be as simple as a problem of distance. If physicists are correct, and nothing with mass can travel at or beyond the speed of light, then perhaps extant and extinct technologically advanced extraterrestrials may have no practical way to reach us (and we no way to reach them). Our furthest probe has only reached the edge of our solar system. And while we're a very noisy planet right now, we weren't always. Perhaps, though, we might someday influence the evolution of life on other celestial bodies. Like Europa and whatnot. Then perhaps someday, when we've gone quiet again, they can reach out and find our remains!
 

computerhxr

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While it is entirely possible that there is Silicon-based life out there or organisms using/breathing Phosphorous and Sulfur, it's far less likely.

What about kenetic energy beings? I would think in entirely different conditions, with the same rules and enough time, eventually another form of DNA like organism would exist. Maybe it's 100brazillian years from now where things might be totally different than we know it today.

In all honesty, humans forming intelligence, and eventually creating tools to alter DNA is part of DNA's evolution. It created beings that were capable of modding DNA. The diversity of life on this planet, and because we evolved from non-living things at some point, leads me to believe that there would be many other forms of life out there. It might be outside of what we can see because light hasn't travelled far enough, or time hasn't passed long enough. IMO, it's near impossible that there isn't other life, and that there is probably life similar to our (maybe in the future, or relative space-time position).

The ocean is also somewhat alien to us even today. Lots of new discoveries happening down there.
 

Pyropyro

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What about kenetic energy beings? I would think in entirely different conditions, with the same rules and enough time, eventually another form of DNA like organism would exist. Maybe it's 100brazillian years from now where things might be totally different than we know it today.

In all honesty, humans forming intelligence, and eventually creating tools to alter DNA is part of DNA's evolution. It created beings that were capable of modding DNA. The diversity of life on this planet, and because we evolved from non-living things at some point, leads me to believe that there would be many other forms of life out there. It might be outside of what we can see because light hasn't travelled far enough, or time hasn't passed long enough. IMO, it's near impossible that there isn't other life, and that there is probably life similar to our (maybe in the future, or relative space-time position).

The ocean is also somewhat alien to us even today. Lots of new discoveries happening down there.

This reminds me of the novel Dragon's Egg. It's not kinetic energy but the life developed in that "egg" was not chemical in origin.
 
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