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college history

DesertSmeagle

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I have this fukin asshole narsacistic history prof in college..The only thing i like about him is the fact that hes smart, and recognizes that traditional education is wrong. So instead of teaching us just information, hes making us develop views on historical events. A test in this class would have history events lined up, and we have to write what we thought about the event with backed up facts.


So i have to write a paper about what i think about europeans "discovering" america...Im arguing that they invaded and took advantage of the indians to create america..Im not supposed to say wether its right or wrong, but i have to include a counter argument in the essay...what would a counter argument be for this? What could i say to back myself up rather than "it was wrong"....i say that europeans invaded the indians and took their land...could a counter argument be that they were escaping religious oppression?? how can i justify my argument?..

i think about this and i get all mixed up in thought, and i dont know who i am anymore..
 

EyeSeeCold

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"On the other hand, we now have tobacco."
 

Thaklaar

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"Sure, we gave 'em smallpox. But they gave us syphillis, dammit!"
 

Melllvar

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I'm not sure of a direct counter-argument to "they invaded and took their land," cause that seems to be what actually happened. Religious freedom seems more like an excuse for the invasion and genocide, not an argument saying "they didn't invade and take their land." Maybe it doesn't matter though, I'm not exactly sure what you're looking for. If excuses will do you could also claim that a clash of civilizations was inevitable and due to geographical and environmental factors Europeans gotten the better end of that asymmetrical power relationship. Or that similarly Europeans had better technology and were better able to make use of the resources than the less technologically advanced groups already present.

A counter-counter-argument could then be that efficient resource utilization is less valuable to the human species than diverse social systems, so (mostly) wiping out an entire civilization in what was largely a technological competition was a disservice to the longer term social evolution of humans. I suppose for that to be true though you'd need to show that social advancement takes place on longer timescales than technological advancement, so that a brief period of decisive tech. competition would override a longer term and potentially more important social competition.

I'm not necessarily supporting any of this, just throwing some ideas out there. Apologies if this makes no sense or I'm setting up weak arguments.

Edit: I suppose an actual counter-argument to "they invaded" would be that they came and tried to co-exist, and the genocide was an unintentional by-product that they mostly would have preferred to avoid. Then it stops looking like invading and stealing and goes back to an inevitable clash of civilizations.

I'm definitely not claiming this is true though.
 

Autodidact

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I'm new, but I had to comment.

I had a history professor just like this. He was arrogant and a little condescending, but I've never learned so much from any professor because he was intelligent and didn't care if he hurt your feelings; in other words, he taught well because he challenged students. Loved the history class as well.

I almost thought you may have been describing the professor I had till I realized you're in New York. My professor, too, did not pump us full of facts and figures, he asked us to study events and make our own arguments for what the causes were.

My fave professor.
 

Dormouse

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Are all history teachers like this? Maybe it's a job requirement...

Anyways, I had a prof like that last year. We didn't get along. Aimless rebellion on my part, exasperation on his. Still, he taught well and I learned quite a bit. Even though I had to feign considerable ignorance and apathy to get on his nerves.
 

EditorOne

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There don't have to be just two possibilities to explain what happened. And more than one explanation can be true.

A quick and imperfect summation of European culture's relevant features at the time America was "discovered" and settled: Landowning most places was limited to the aristocracy. Most people weren't allowed to own land, only rent it from the local lord; rent was the source of most of their wealth. The continent was periodically rent with wars, some of them because of religion. The average person had no control over much of anything. Merchants were increasing in numbers and were asserting themselves as something of another force to be dealt with in terms of having wealth and aspiring to power.

Add the discovery of a new continent, limiting ourselves just to land now the United States and Canada, and the first thing that happened was creation of land grants by European royalty to some aristocratic supporters as a way of expanding their wealth. The early settlements were not all just people fleeing religious oppression, they were speculative schemes organized by entrepreneurial interests, both royal and merchant-sponsored, to create new towns and new farmsteads from which rents and trade could be obtained. Some of these efforts were "state sponsored," ie., national (royal) backed. Others were backed by consortiums of merchants who pooled their money, funded creation of a town in the new world, and hoped for a return on their investment. You can still take land in, say, New Jersey, and trace the deeds back through time until you get to the original land grants from the king to two individuals. And in the late 1600s and early 1700s, there was debate and unrest here about the abolition of the kind of rent system that dominated England and Scotland. To this day county government in New Jersey is known as the "board of chosen freeholders," ie, people who actually owned land picked just by others who owned land to administer counties and do things like improve roads and build bridges. The system of picking them changed, of course, but the title lingers as a kind of historical artifact.

Consider the culture upon which this descended: While there were recognized areas that might be considered "Lenape land" rather than "Mohawk land," the idea of a specific, identifiable piece of ground being owned by an individual, whether a chieftain or a rank-and-file guy, wasn't in the paradigm. No culture is monolithic, though, so when some chieftains were asked to trade their land for various goods that very much offered an improvement in their life, they went ahead and did it. That the Europeans then, in effect, fenced it off and started farming, creating resentment among all the indigenous people affected by the actions of some of their number.

The degree to which indigenous people were then either deliberately or accidentally eliminated varied from place to place, with the English at one point actually recognizing one coalition of tribes as a sovereign nation just like England.

It was, given the paradigm from which it sprang, inevitable that the pressure from Europeans to own land would be unstoppable. It was a privilege to own land, and a sign of prestige and a ticket to power. And there were millions upon millions of acres here, a huge magnet. Again, no monolith: People who thought nothing of deliberately giving blankets contaminated by smallpox victims to Native Americans came over along with others to whom that idea was barbaric.

The trick to perhaps presenting a premise to your history professor, whatever you choose, might simply be to avoid the mistake of attributing deliberate, articulated motive to what really was the outcome of contact between two mutually exclusive cultures. Even had there been no creeps willing to use genocide, even if there had been no deliberate efforts to wipe out the buffalo to destroy the Plains Indians "commissary," their way of life depended on communal "ownership" of vast tracts needed for hunting and agriculture and the European model was fueled by a burning quest for land divided up and controlled by individuals. Since the European was, relatively speaking, more technologically advanced and more powerful, it inevitably survived and dominated.

People always seem ready to assign evil motives to the Europeans, on the argument, apparently, that because the Native American culture was destroyed, destroying that culture was the reason Europeans came here. Stated like that, it's obviously nonsense.

Part of the problem you're having is that you intuitively know that, but explaining it as a "counter argument" requires you to take it seriously or, put it another way, you have to accept a "judging" premise and have no idea how to "counterjudge" it because you're a perceptive, not a judger. I'd just go with some observations on culture clash.

Be glad you have such professors. When I was in school it was all just information and facts and it was boring beyond belief.
 

DesertSmeagle

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Thanks editor one...cleared shit up for me...my professor writes text books, but he says they are worth....deja vu.....worthless...he says he writes them for money..im sure hes fukin loaded with cash. but instead of text books, we have these little books filled with primary sources, and we have to make opinions on them and back them up with facts from the book...and sometimes i do wish i was intj, so i did good in school..i can fuck shit up when it comes to projects and papers, but its the homework that killls me. im only good at papers because all the energy from learning math went to my word and sentence building intuition...i clearly dont use that word intuition here...i hate math in school..the teacher teaches me all these tricks, and i dont wana learn tricks, i wana learn how the shit works so i can just do it my own way...the education system is so fucked up.
 

EditorOne

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Slog it out. It's a river of shit and you've got to keep swimming or you'll sink. (Fugs) Eventually you'll reach an ocean and there will be pleasant beaches to enjoy.
 
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