Brains or Balls

[AlisaD]

It's pretty simple, if you had to choose, would you rather be smart and cowardly, or dumbish but bold?

 

[₲uardian]

in the center

 

[AlisaD]

in the center

It's not that kind of game.
Take a pick

 

[TruthSeeker]

My childhood scars still leave me biased. I associate "boldness" with the dumb macho guys I knew as a kid, you know, the type of people who acted like lunatics for the sake of being "manly". They would pressure me into doing some stupid stunt with them, only to get us all injured, but that wasn't what annoyed me the most. As we all sat there writhing in pain, they would laugh manically and say it was "still worth it". And not just because they were too embarrassed to admit they were, well, dumb.

Plus, bold people have a reputation to keep up. As soon as they do something smart that people perceive as cowardice, they question their "ballsiness" (or at least men do). Which, by the way, I think pretty much proves being brave is just a social construction intended to make people do stupid things for the sake of those wise enough to take advantage of their insecurities. (See? Now you know how to manipulate ST men. You don't need to be "bold"!) But if a smart person says something others perceive as "stupid", or call stupid because it goes against their all-wise societal norms, the smart person can rest assured knowing in their heart they were right.

Of course, I don't know if you were talking about "physical boldness" or other types of "boldness", like, say, boldness in the stock market. But don't you have to be smart for that type of boldness to pay off?

I say smart but cowardly all the way.

 

[Derocrates]

I live to fight another day. Intellect, cowardice all the way

If the worst that can happen is death, with decision making theory, it follows that smart and cowardice seems the better choice. Going purely off of semantics, Brave and dumb has a greater probability for the acceleration of death than intellect and cowardice. The coward will not only avoid, but s/he/it will think about how to avoid. If teleologically speaking, death occurs [which it will] in the long run, cowardice is logically the better choice but it does not indicate the quality of the life lived. One could be a badass, lived a short awesome life, whilst the coward lived the long shitty life. In this reasoning here, there is a greater chance for the coward to live an awesome life.

Ok I totally ranted and based that on like...scholars vs. Barbarians of the 5th century. Don't mind too much of my dissertation.

 

[AlisaD]

My childhood scars still leave me biased. I associate "boldness" with the dumb macho guys I knew as a kid, you know, the type of people who acted like lunatics for the sake of being "manly", pressured me into doing some stupid stunt with them, only to get us all injured...and we all sat there writhing in pain, they would laugh manically and say it was "still worth it" - not entirely out of fear of admitting they were, well, dumb.

I was thinking more along the lines of bold as telling those guys to go fuck themselves without worrying about getting your head kicked in...

 

[AlisaD]

I live to fight another day. Intellect, cowardice all the way

If the worst that can happen is death, with decision making theory, it follows that smart and cowardice seems the better choice. Going purely off of semantics, Brave and dumb has a greater probability for the acceleration of death than intellect and cowardice. The coward will not only avoid, but s/he/it will think about how to avoid. If teleologically speaking, death occurs [which it will] in the long run, cowardice is logically the better choice but it does not indicate the quality of the life lived. One could be a badass, lived a short awesome life, whilst the coward lived the long shitty life. In this reasoning here, there is a greater chance for the coward to live an awesome life.

Ok I totally ranted and based that on like...scholars vs. Barbarians of the 5th century. Don't mind too much of my dissertation.

The question still remains, is living a 100 years as a coward really worth it?

Compared to, let's say 30 years, of living a simple life where you are dumb enough not to see the alternatives, but just know what's right and you are brave enough to do it.

30 years of being in the right against a 100 years of being afraid?

I say Arrrrrrrrrrrggghhhhhhhhh!!!! - Barbarinas rule

 

[₲uardian]

It's not that kind of game.
Take a pick

Do you get to attack my choice if you dont like it? You gotta do something with it...

 

[AlisaD]

Do you get to attack my choice if you dont like it? You gotta do something with it...

If it'll make you happy, I'd be glad to do it.
If you'd prefer if I didn't, I'll just look at it disapprovingly.

 

[₲uardian]

If it'll make you happy, I'd be glad to do it.
If you'd prefer if I didn't, I'll just look at it disapprovingly.

Oh, I already made my choice

But... you didn't like it

 

[AlisaD]

Oh, I already made my choice

But... you didn't like it

That's because it was a smart-ass choice, and I am a barbarian

 

[Anthile]

This is a false dichotomy. You're basically asking me if I'm dead or alive but you're ignoring that I might be a vampire.

 

[AlisaD]

This is a false dichotomy. You're basically asking me if I'm dead or alive but you're ignoring that I might be a vampire.

That's why I said IF you had to choose.

It's just a game, but vampires aren't allowed to play.

 

[bloozie]

Smart and Cowardly will get you nowhere.
Dumb and Bold will get you somewhere.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I'm confused who's turning me into a coward and how.

 

[commandolam]

Bold, but dumbish.

Being cowardly doesn't get anything done.

 

[AlisaD]

Smart and Cowardly will get you nowhere.
Dumb and Bold will get you somewhere.

Thank you.

I'm confused who's turning me into a coward and how.

Really? I mean really?

 

[TruthSeeker]

I was thinking more along the lines of bold as telling those guys to go fuck themselves without worrying about getting your head kicked in...

Oh. Hm...that's a toughie.

If had I stood up to them in that case, you imply I would have been dumb, but in giving in I was both cowardly and dumb, because I knew I would probably get hurt.

So in at least a few instances, we don't even have the option to be smart.

But you have the option to be bold (in some small way) in pretty much every situation (whether or not it helps you or even means anything at all is a different story).

So I would have more chances to cultivate the virtue of courage than the virtue of smartness, and Aristotle says virtue is the path to seeking the good, so based on that I would logically have to go for being dumb. But then I would not be able to understood the genius rationale behind that decision, so I would probably not focus as much on cultivating that virtue and thus give up my intelligence for nothing.

Damn you! I hate this question!

 

[AlisaD]

Oh. Hm...that's a toughie.

If had I stood up to them in that case, you imply I would have been dumb, but in giving in I was both cowardly and dumb, because I knew I would probably get hurt.

So in at least a few instances, we don't even have the option to be smart.

But you have the option to be bold (in some small way) in pretty much every situation (whether or not it helps you or even means anything at all is a different story).

So I would have more chances to cultivate the virtue of courage than the virtue of smartness, and Aristotle says virtue is the path to seeking the good, so based on that I would logically have to go for being dumb. But then I would not be able to understood the genius rationale behind that decision, so I would probably not focus as much on cultivating that virtue and thus give up my intelligence for nothing.

Damn you! I hate this question!

 

[SpaceYeti]

Really? I mean really?

Well? I voted, I went along with it. A coward can still be a power behind the throne sort of getter of jobs done. I simply cannot surrender my intellect. Without it, I'd be dumb. Eff that. But, yeah, how'm I getting cowardly?

 

[AlisaD]

Well? I voted, I went along with it. A coward can still be a power behind the throne sort of getter of jobs done. I simply cannot surrender my intellect. Without it, I'd be dumb. Eff that. But, yeah, how'm I getting cowardly?

It's just a hypothetical question, like: "If you could kill just one celebrity without repercussions, which one would you choose?" Or: "If you had to suffer from a mental disorder, which one would you like?"

No one is making you a coward, don't worry. I was just wondering, if people had to choose, what would they go with.

 

[SpaceYeti]

I know they're not really making me a coward, I'm curious how, in the hypothetical, my balls get removed.

 

[AlisaD]

Hypothetically, you never had any balls to start with.

 

[SpaceYeti]

Oh. Well, good, I won't live in the shame of having lost them!

 

[echoplex]

I picked smart and cowardly, mainly because I sort of see bravery -- at least when combined with 'dumb' -- as being a bit too suicidal. I mean, bravery at its most extreme is essentially being willing to die for something -- not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that -- but if I'm going to ever do so, I'd better be pretty damn smart (also to avoid dying, hopefully). But even then, martyrdom seems without reward unless one feels confident in an afterlife affected by such actions. Selfish I know, but let's keep in mind this supposed bravery is defined as 'dumb', so what are the chances I succeed in effectively improving the world anyway?

But then, to be fair, I suppose cowardice could be deadly as well. But then, that's the whole point of being 'smart': To avoid such situations.

To totally destroy my own argument: There are worse things than death. Being a coward sucks. The opposite sex doesn't usually like it and you also don't get to tell people what you really think. So basically, good luck being miserable in a cave somewhere, terrified of spiders, shaking in the fetal position in a corner. Yeah, that's how I picture it. Goddammit AlisaD, you sure do ask the tough questions. Still not changing my answer btw. Take that.

 

[Kokoro]

Damn, this is harder than I thought it would be. I really want to answer, but every time that I settle on an answer, a counter point pops up. The poll is worded vague enough to allow possibilities, yet specific enough to make it difficult. Nice one, AlisaD. I'll ponder for awhile and get back to you.

 

[bloozie]

I see "Smart and Cowardly" as a type of person who can be manipulated by other people.
"Dumb and Bold" is a type of person who would probably annoy people who think that they know better than them but are too reticent to even tell "Dumb and Bold" outright.

The first thing that came to my mind when I saw this question though was what would be most appreciated in a big company where innovation is key and results are necessary?
I chose "Dumb and Bold"... reason why? Getting somewhere through action (bold) can lead to results... even if they aren't the "smart" or "best" results... BUT... through this that person learns from those results and is able to move forward and apply what they learned to acquire better results...

 

[The Frood]

lol, I'm in the same boat as kokoro.
Leaning towards dumb and bold though at the moment... we'll see about the next one lol.

hmmm now I envision the "smart and cowardly" as Wormtongue from Lord of the Rings, and Sam (well, Merry and Pippen also) for the "brave and dumb"... Can't I be Aragorn? or even better, Gandalf? (you would think we would have a "wizard" smiley...)



But, @Derocrates "s/he/it" couldn't you just say "they"? (sorry, pet peeve of mine)

 

[Hammett]

Brave, but dumbish works for me as it is. Don't need to be super intelligent to have common sense.

If dumbish lacks common sense then my vote totally changes, meanwhile I'm gonna kick all yo smurt cowdly asses!

 

[SpaceYeti]

I'm confused why everyone seems to think cowards cannot do anything ever. I've known cowards throughout my life, and they do stuff all the time. Just not risky stuff. The stuff they do still finds results, though. An action doesn't have to be courageous in order to work. Come, people, we INTPs should understand the distinction, no?

 

[AlisaD]

My opinion is not that a coward will never do anything, it's that no matter what they do, they will still be afraid. It's not about achieving, it's about living. And living in fear is not something I'd choose.
If I had a choice.

 

[Derocrates]

But, @Derocrates "s/he/it" couldn't you just say "they"? (sorry, pet peeve of mine)

I could have but s/he/it sounds less trite. Totally going to say "they" just for you from now on

My opinion is not that a coward will never do anything, it's that no matter what they do, they will still be afraid. It's not about achieving, it's about living. And living in fear is not something I'd choose.
If I had a choice.

I mean, after a certain point, fear becomes so static that it's just a natural response--a natural response endomorphic to salivating when you get a smell of food in the air. You see, when I picture an intellectual coward, I picture someone who is forecasting outcomes (albeit the worst possible ones) and acting on those cues depending on the urgencies they (<-- FROOD DO YOU SEE THIS?) predict. Now you might be correct to say that no matter what they do, they will always be afraid. Ultimately, someone who is brave and dumb is perhaps too dumb to realize that they are brave and find it natural anyway. Whereas someone who is cowardly and intelligent is perhaps too cowardly to realize that they are smart and can make risky decisions in game theory. So...it seems to me that Bravery commandeers the dumbness and conversely, cowardice commandeers the intelligence. One may do cowardly things, but may not show fear. I can easily call someone a coward for not investing in the stock market. They are afraid to lose their money--is this cowardice or intelligence...??

Now let's talk evolution. You have a better chance of dying or never being born than being born. The probability of existence with your genes are roughly 1 in 2.041 × 10^-28, assuming basic combinatorics with about 3*10^4 genes, yada yada. Because this probability of you occurring is so small, in theory, wouldn't it make sense to protect something so...precious maybe? That's what cowardice brings out of intelligence, the ability to reason this. Don't get me wrong, bravery is a novel thing but dumbness appears to me as a defect, though not necessarily indicative of its potential usefulness.

Curious, did anyone choose bravery over cowardice [when that might fit the personality initially] because that might be a disposition that they'd like to aspire to or would like to try?

Oh and a mini paradox: If one considers suicide an act of cowardice whilst someone with that same conviction fears dying...is it that the one who commits suicide is brave enough to take their life and those who don't are cowardly vs. those who live on and don't suicide are brave and those who commit suicide are cowardly?

I guess it applies to particular events, doesn't seem like either extrema is a "cure-all." I mean even if there was the 'center' option, the problem arises when to apply either extreme and mood, events, places and time etc... IMHO, that's more difficult.

Rant Mode ON [OFF]

 

[Thaklaar]

I'd rather be Ulysses than Achilles. Smart cowards get things done.

 

[SpaceYeti]

My opinion is not that a coward will never do anything, it's that no matter what they do, they will still be afraid. It's not about achieving, it's about living. And living in fear is not something I'd choose.
If I had a choice.

Bravery is not lacking fear, it's facing it. Cowardice is not having fear, it's avoiding facing it. And, sure, I'd like to not be a coward as well, but not at the expense of my mind. I am my mind.

 

[SpaceYeti]

The probability of existence with your genes are roughly 1 in 2.041 × 10^-28, assuming basic combinatorics with about 3*10^4 genes, yada yada

The odds of something that already happened happening the way it happened is 1 in 1.

 

[Derocrates]

The odds of something that already happened happening the way it happened is 1 in 1.

What?

 

[Cavallier]

And thus the INTPs start dickering about semantics...

For me being a coward = selling out your friends, family, and all your loved ones if that is what it takes to stay alive or protect yourself from pain. I have no real desire to stay alive other than to continue learning and enjoying life. However, should the need arise I'm comfortable with death and I've lived with enough pain to be comfortable with that (barring torture obviously).

For me being dumbish = not very good at school learning but not necessarily stupid in a street smarts sort of way. I've known a lot of dumb but happy people filled with a fair amount of boldness that just pissed me off to no end. They made stupid choices and then fought over them like rabid street dogs. I don't really want to align myself with that.

However, assuming boldness does not equate aggression (after all lynch mobs are made up of the aggressive Dumb but Bold variety of person) I'll go with Dumbish but Bold. I've been clever enough in my life but my intelligence wouldn't have gotten me very far if it weren't for the fact that I'm also rather bold.

 

[s0nystyle]

cowards get stuff done while minimizing the risk to themselves.

ex1: smart+coward: cellphone bomb/ IED
brave+stupid: drivable carbomb/ insurgent combatant

While both accomplish a similar goal, i'd rather go with the coward's approach.

ex2: smart+coward: waiting at a crosswalk (w/ moderate oncoming traffic)
brave+stupid: dashing across the street a la J-walking

Both accomplish a similar goal, while one is safer/takes marginally longer, it also minimizes risk

I'd personally prefer being a coward+smart.

 

[Derocrates]

one is safer/takes marginally longer, it also minimizes risk

Thank you. This is exactly what I've been thinking about, maximization of utility and minimizing of risk...all concerted.

 

[s0nystyle]

NT's would naturally gravitate towards cowardly+smart then right? Or perhaps my assumptions are unfounded >.>

 

[SpaceYeti]

What?

The chances of something happening that already happened is 1 in 1. It happened. Odds are irrelevant to past occurrences, because the past already happened.

 

[s0nystyle]

i think what derocrates meant was that the odds of something recurring.

 

[Derocrates]

i think what derocrates meant was that the odds of something recurring.

And thank you again

 

[Minuend]

For me being a coward = selling out your friends, family, and all your loved ones if that is what it takes to stay alive or protect yourself from pain. I have no real desire to stay alive other than to continue learning and enjoying life. However, should the need arise I'm comfortable with death and I've lived with enough pain to be comfortable with that (barring torture obviously).

Oh! I want to be the coward!

*Pushes Cava off Grand Canyon and inherit all her money*

Who needs bravery when you can spend all day reading books and play games?

My opinion is not that a coward will never do anything, it's that no matter what they do, they will still be afraid.

That's why God invented alcohol.

Ed: I don't really think one is better than the other, but I'd choose the coward one, I think that'd be easier to cure.

 

[AlisaD]

Oh! I want to be the coward!

Who are you and what have you done with Minuend, the jolly old brute we all know and love?

 

[Minuend]

Brute? Yarr, I've always been intpforum's fine, charming, charismatic, lovable example of politeness, good manners and finesse, you scallywag!

*Stabs Alisa cowardly with a pointy wizard's hat and inherit all her Serbian primitive technology and nuclear weapons made from human fat soap*

 

[bumsyspin]

But if you're smart, you know how to exert control (not necessarily through action), rite??

 

[snafupants]

since i value intelligence more than happiness, smart and cowardly. with brave and dumb, although you might be happy - which you probably would be if observing america teaches you anything - your plans might be completely misguided and even damaging to yourself, your community, the planet, etc. imho, intelligence is vitally important to making correct observations and judgments, which is - or should be - of paramount importance to intelligent, autonomous human beings.

 

[Inappropriate Behavior]

I choose smart and cowardly because I want something different from here on out. I've done enough stupid shit to last me for the rest of my life.

 

[Hammett]

NT's would naturally gravitate towards cowardly+smart then right? Or perhaps my assumptions are unfounded >.>

I wouldn't expect so, I'd guess the split would be reasonably close in preference, however INTs may lean towards preferring smart, and ENTs may lean towards preferring brave.