Borderline INTP (INXP) = problems

[Benjamin Sainclair]

Good evening everyone. For well over a decade, numerous times (from time to time), I have tested my type. I've done online testing, testing from tests within books (e.g. Keirsey), professional testing (twice) and always come out as either an INXP or an INTP by the smallest margin the test allows. Some tests have had only twenty questions others seventy or more, so (over the years and with differing questions) I am not rigging the tests results by purposely answering a certain way.

What I find odd about myself, and very problematic, is that being an INXP, marginal INTP, you would think that my thinking/feeling would be about equal. What ends of happening instead is that instead of being an I-N-(50%F / 50%T)-P, or an I-N-(40&F / 60%T)-P, my mind often works like an I-N-(T=80+%)-P or an I-N-(F=80+%)-P. Not sure if this makes sense but basically instead of being balanced between the two like I would expect from my test results, I find that I oscillate between being an extreme INTP and an extreme INFP. So when I read type descriptions from various sites and books, and show them to people who know me, they all agree that I'm about 75-85% INTP (based upon the descriptions) and (75-85%) INFP... at various times. It's almost like being two people.

Basically, at work my INTP is in overdrive as it is whenever my core principles or values are tested. At home, I still see a dominant INTP baseline but I have strong INFP tendencies.

I am a logical and grammatical fiend and cannot stand inconsistencies in word usage, word meaning, rhetoric, etc. I can annoy people because of how nuanced and précise I am with language usage and how strict I am against the use of logical fallacies, sophistry, other forms of poor reasoning, etc. I am big into etymology and like to trace the root origin of words to ensure precision of thought and meaning when using them.

Yet, for matters that do not pertain to my core beliefs and values, I am incredibly laid back, and hate to have the group harmony unnecessarily disrupted. Basically, if I care deeply about something -- I'm INTP to the extreme. If I don't care much about something or am neutrally/marginally inclined, then my INFP is noticeably dominant and I act in a way that seeks to maintain group harmony and personal well-being.

It seems to me that this is not a healthy/balanced psychological state despite the balanced or near balanced (T-leaning) t/f numbers. My perception is that the "balance" is the cause of the oscillation between extremes. This, at times, drives me crazy and I often feel like the oddest man out in any group I'm in.


Does anyone have any thoughts or insight on this?

 

[Grayman]

I voted as MBTI would dictate it (No) but personally we always believed emotion was a varied thing in individuals and I find it odd that all of a sudden we break it up as either Ti or Fi.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

I voted as MBTI would dictate it (No) but personally we always believed emotion was a varied thing in individuals and I find it odd that all of a sudden we break it up as either Ti or Fi.

Thanks for the quick response. For you, and others who voted "no," how would you explain the high INFP tendencies. I've tried to be as clear and objective as possible, allowing for little personal bias, which is why I had people look at descriptions for both INFP and INTP. Do you think it is a sign of dysfunction to have people say "they both describe you for the most part" depending on "how you are" at a particular time? Is it an emotional problem to be an INTP and have high INFP tendencies at varying times? I do not want to over analyze or find problems where none exist but I can't help but feel that this isn't quite normal. I would love to hear if "other" INxPs or borderline INTPs have similar difficulties.

 

[Absurdity]

"Seeking to maintain group harmony" is classic INTP inferior Fe at work and not INFP dominant Fi.

You're an INTP.

 

[r4ch3l]

I am similar. 80+% I, N, & P but fairly evenly split on the T and F. For a long time I typed myself as INTP because I did not relate much to the INFP stereotypes and am very cold for an "F" type. Interests and intense curiosity seemed more aligned with the INTP description.

But I am starting to see that my way of perceiving could possibly be more Fi than Ti. For example, when I was taking a course on cryptography I kept relating the information back to theology concepts or to this modal geometry project I am working on. It was distracting -- I just wanted to learn the material to apply it and my brain kept taking it back to this "theory of everything" I have going on.

I think there are a lot of INFPs that aren't so idealistic in the traditional or humanistic sense who mistype themselves as INTPs. Or who are idealistic but also analytical, or idealistic about being analytical or the systems they analyze? [Also: I believe Einstein was INFP after reading Ideas and Opinions and more on his life.]

My friend is a professor (and an INTP) and says that most of the scientists he knows and works with are NFs followed by NTs. The NTs all go for the money these days. But this same friend and I are so similar in how we think and what ideas make us excited and there are so many similarities between my ENFP and ENTP friends that I've started to realize that maybe the differences between thinking and feeling are not so black or white...

 

[Grayman]

OP, Describe your friends or family and what you like about them or dislike. Or someone else. I'll tell you why after.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

I don't believe in the general accuracy of the almost mathematically seeming formulas which are deemed to make up the personality.
I believe the transitions are fluid in their nature and not as static as described.
But i'm a borderline INTJ/INTP myself (at least, that's what the test results indicate),
so my perception of the matter at hand may be biased.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

"Seeking to maintain group harmony" is classic INTP inferior Fe at work and not INFP dominant Fi.

You're an INTP.

Hah! Cool; thanks for that. I researched your quote and found this: "Fe drives the INTP to desire harmony in community. At their most relaxed, INTPs can be charming and outgoing among friends, or when they have a clearly defined role in the group. When under stress, however, INTPs can feel disconnected from the people around them, unable to use their extraverted Feeling to reach out to others. " -- This explains much; stress levels in multiple areas of life have been significantly elevated for many years now... It ties-in with the next quote:

"depending on how much pressure an INTP feels to "fit in" (ie., how strong their fear of being perceived as being weird and different is) the more they will use it. Fe is by definition conformist because it puts emphasis on group values and helps keep a bit of that N weirdness at bay." If accurate, it makes sense. I've felt weird and different most of my life; as a result, I probably have a more highly developed "INTP inferior Fe" than those INTPs who do not score borderline on tests.

Thanks much for the response; gives me ground to research and ponder further!

 

[Absurdity]

Hah! Cool; thanks for that. I researched your quote and found this: "Fe drives the INTP to desire harmony in community. At their most relaxed, INTPs can be charming and outgoing among friends, or when they have a clearly defined role in the group. When under stress, however, INTPs can feel disconnected from the people around them, unable to use their extraverted Feeling to reach out to others. " -- This explains much; stress levels in multiple areas of life have been significantly elevated for many years now... It ties-in with the next quote:

"depending on how much pressure an INTP feels to "fit in" (ie., how strong their fear of being perceived as being weird and different is) the more they will use it. Fe is by definition conformist because it puts emphasis on group values and helps keep a bit of that N weirdness at bay." If accurate, it makes sense. I've felt weird and different most of my life; as a result, I probably have a more highly developed "INTP inferior Fe" than those INTPs who do not score borderline on tests.

Thanks much for the response; gives me ground to research and ponder further!

The tests are misleading simple in that they suggest an "all or nothing" categorization: you are either a feeler or a thinker with no in between.

A more sophisticated understanding of the MBTI is that the four letter types are short hand for a specific stack of cognitive functions arranged in order of preference.

Personality Junkie has good descriptions of the INTP and the INFP based on cognitive functions. Read them and decide for yourself.

This is also good.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

OP, Describe your friends or family and what you like about them or dislike. Or someone else. I'll tell you why after.

I have very few friends. Okay, I lied, you caught me -- I have none. I have my family and that is basically it. Back when I had friends, I enjoyed their ability to either think accurately and deeply (preferred when it came to colleagues) or to both think accurately and deeply AND feel deeply (I liked this in the few women I was involved with; basically preferring sane but passionate, tender, caring, traditionally-feminine women). My ideal woman is one who is logical and precise while at the same time having deep, sincere passion, care, and commitment.

I've moved away from my former friends for various reasons or else had falling outs for the reasons described below. I joke that I am a cross between Spock (Star Trek) and House (M.D.) -- albeit without the drug problem and not nearly as cold and callous. Yet, I can be seen as highly empathic, caring, sensitive, etc. by those in my close circle (well, who were in my close circle). My ability to get deeply connected / inside of people's heads is strong and often not so great so I back off from it. It can lead others into thinking that I am more interested than I am -- or else makes me too interested when I should not be. Too much depth of closeness drains me and I shutdown and back off -- often permanently (mainly when it is not "safe," as in if I am already in a relationship and cannot give back what they want, or if the person has too many issues and it is overwhelming). I am married now to someone of a very opposite MBTI type; she knows how different I am from most people. We have learned to work through it.

Finally, I do not do well with people who do not carefully, methodically, rationally make important decisions or come to certain conclusions. I try to be objective and search for the truth of things in a calm and careful manner. I run into people who basically just go by how they "feel" about things. Having such highly defined core values, interests, and paradigms -- I find it hard to relate to people who just go by tradition, what friends or family believe, or what they want to believe on strictly emotional levels. I cannot relate well to purely/mostly emotionally-driven people and that is the majority that I have encountered over the last several years. Yet, when I have to be around them (work, school, other social-obligations, etc.) I try to keep the peace and to minimize my "oddness." To some (a few) I am gregarious, cocky, and witty. To others I am an anti-social, socially-awkward, guy who eschews social events and just wants to do what I have to do and then get out at the end of the day. The more I get involved -- the more mentally draining it becomes.

That probably goes well beyond the question you asked... my apologies.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

The tests are misleading simple in that they suggest an "all or nothing" categorization: you are either a feeler or a thinker with no in between.

A more sophisticated understanding of the MBTI is that the four letter types are short hand for a specific stack of cognitive functions arranged in order of preference.

Personality Junkie has good descriptions of the INTP and the INFP based on cognitive functions. Read them and decide for yourself.

This is also good.

Great, thanks for the response and resources. I will look into them. Much appreciated!

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

The tests are misleading simple in that they suggest an "all or nothing" categorization: you are either a feeler or a thinker with no in between.

A more sophisticated understanding of the MBTI is that the four letter types are short hand for a specific stack of cognitive functions arranged in order of preference.

Personality Junkie has good descriptions of the INTP and the INFP based on cognitive functions. Read them and decide for yourself.

This is also good.

Wow... read the material and more confused now. Probably still due to the fe aspect you mentioned... but regarding the quotes from the INTP and INFP profiles you linked, I see major aspects of me in both.:

INTP
"They work to discern unifying themes and metaphysical truths that explain the underlying nature of things. Especially early in their intellectual journey, they feel they must develop a sufficient understanding of the whole before they can competently assess any of its constituent parts. Toward this end, INTPs may devour stacks of books on subjects like philosophy, religion, psychology, and evolutionary theory."

Absolutely me...

"When discussing a topic that interests them, they can be stimulating conversationalists, as their ever active minds can easily connect one topic to another, paving the way for a multifaceted and broad-ranging dialogue. If disinterested however, such as when forced to endure protracted small talk, they will quickly zone out or find a way of redirecting the conversation. Despite appearing outwardly genuine and personable, INTPs are more interested in discussing ideas than the commonplace details of people’s lives. They enjoy discovering what makes people tick—their motivations, interests, patterns, and propensities. This allows INTPs to further hone and refine their theories (Ti-Ne) of human nature (Fe)."

Absolutely me. This core "discovering what makes people tick—their motivations, interests, patterns, and propensities" leads to the problematic rapport discussed below.

"Like other introverts, INTPs can be anxious and self-conscious characters. It is not uncommon for them to display a handful of nervous habits, or at least some sign that they are not at ease. They generally avoid direct eye contact..."

Definitely me. People get on me about the lack of eye contact.

"Others may only encounter INTPs’ inner world through encounters with their work, such as by reading something they have written. This may explain why many INTPs often take interest in writing, which provides an excellent forum for expressing themselves more fully and precisely."

Absolutely me.

"INTPs can struggle to find satisfying jobs within the system and are often happier functioning as freelancers or entrepreneurs."

Definitely me again.

-----------------------------

INFP
"INFPs can commonly be found helping individuals that are sick, disabled, disenfranchised, or otherwise in need."

Definitely me and *want* this to be me... I was just telling a co-worker that for years now, I've been wanting to leave my field of work to do something that actually helps people in need... or else to become a professor / teacher.

"INFPs want to feel inspired. They need their Fi to be stimulated and impassioned. They may therefore seek out, even if unconsciously, experiences that arouse or intensify feelings of passion, inspiration, or meaning. They may turn to relationships, novels, poetry, music, travel, or charity work to achieve their desired level of intensity. In romantic relationships, INFPs can feel restless and dissatisfied when the passion or intrigue wanes."

Definitely me now; I think this covers my deep interest in music, travel, haikus, poetry in general, the fine arts, and high quality novels. Especially in the last couple of years, I've gotten deeply into aesthetics. Always been deep into music, visiting museums of art, etc.

"Because INFPs are outwardly receptive and non-judgmental, they can serve as veritable dumping grounds for others’ problems. This can engender a sense of emotional heaviness, leading some INFPs to have a tragic or melancholic air about them."

Definitely me; hence the burnout I mentioned in the other post -- this is precisely what happens. I develop a deep rapport with people (especially women), if they are "friends" the dumping of their problems begin, if they are not the "just friends" type -- even worse for me now because I cannot act on what develops and must shut it all down.

"Almost always lovers of nature, many take to the trails, mountains, and wilderness in hopes of passionately connecting with what they see as the essence of life."

Definitely me. I just recently described to a co-worker that the perfect vacation for me would be a trip to the mountains, alone, for a week just observing nature and thinking. This is why I love national parks, hiking, camping, etc. Feel more alive when I can just think and take in the natural wonder.

"Of all types, INFPs are among those most explicitly concerned with achieving a holistic balance of mind (Ne), body (Si), and emotions (Fi). Toward this end, they often populate self-help, “human potential,” or bodywork seminars. Such holistic practices may also serve as attractive and viable career paths for many INFPs. They may find their niche in alternative or complementary medicine, homeopathy, naturopathy, Reiki, etc. Others might opt to study psychology,..."

This is also me to the letter (on the mental / alternative medicine aspect -- not the body-work stuff).

---------------------------------------

When I read the two profiles all I see is me in both. It might as well be one profile combined on one page and called INFTP. Still feel like I have two sides. One that has a deep need and desire to explore who and what I am on a mental, spiritual, emotional level -- and another side that wants to analyze all of these varying factors and come to the most logical, cohesive, unified understanding possible.

 

[~~~]

I thought the theory said you ultimately had to be one or the other and that this is determined by what you are more likely to ultimately resort to in the functional stack. Although, I would also say that you will notice other elements if you are not strong on particular elements.

"theory of everything"

That's physics (T) isn't it?

 

[Grayman]

When I read the two profiles all I see is me in both. It might as well be one profile combined on one page and called INFTP. Still feel like I have two sides. One that has a deep need and desire to explore who and what I am on a mental, spiritual, emotional level -- and another side that wants to analyze all of these varying factors and come to the most logical, cohesive, unified understanding possible.

A lot of what you have said about people and in here seem to be similar to me but stronger toward art. I see you as an INTP who is interested in feelings of people and psyche. You seemed to even point out that you prefer the emotions to be logical and make sense to you and you have a hard time with people who don't.

Your description of the type of woman you like is also similar to me. I tend to find that people want a partner who excels in their tertiary functions.

When watching a movie what about the characters do you enjoy?
Do you need to like the characters in order to enjoy the experience?
What about the movie do you enjoy?
What type of movies and characters do you enjoy?

Sorry for all the questions. I know someone who is INFP and we did a lot of comparisons and I am seeing which side you fit.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Ofc you have two sides, all functions operate by a duality. You're feeling the Fe tug urging you to be the nice guy.

I'm with Absurdity.

How were you as a kid and during your adolescent years? Not yet balanced individuals, people's types can be a bit more obvious when they haven't got control of their tertiaries and inferiors while their dominant gets to rule.

 

[Brontosaurie]

can't make sense of that one either, fuck MBTI

i'm me

you do sound very much like INTP though

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

A lot of what you have said about people and in here seem to be similar to me but stronger toward art. I see you as an INTP who is interested in feelings of people and psyche. You seemed to even point out that you prefer the emotions to be logical and make sense to you and you have a hard time with people who don't.

Your description of the type of woman you like is also similar to me. I tend to find that people want a partner who excels in their tertiary functions.

When watching a movie what about the characters do you enjoy?
Do you need to like the characters in order to enjoy the experience?
What about the movie do you enjoy?
What type of movies and characters do you enjoy?

Sorry for all the questions. I know someone who is INFP and we did a lot of comparisons and I am seeing which side you fit.

Hello Grayman,

I appreciate the time and questions!

When watching a movie what about the characters do you enjoy?
Honour primarily; my favourite characters act with honour, respect, love, nurturing/protecting the weak and those whom they love. But they also have to be just, act reasonably, rationally, soberly. So lead characters from films like Crouching Tiger, Hero (Jet Li), Hotel Rwandha, Man of steel, Snitch, Saving Private Ryan, Gladiator, etc. But their can be weaknesses also since I enjoy psychoanalyzing the characters (like those in 21 grams, mystic river, stay, half nelson, requiem for a dream, detachment).

Do you need to like the characters in order to enjoy the experience?
Absolutely! I did not like the "character" of Ray Charles in the movie Ray and could not enjoy the film at all. If I do not care for the characters, if they are not people that I would want to be around in real life, then the movie is a complete bust for me. Same with books. Which is why, despite the success, I was not a fan of "The Kite Runner" (book or film) -- couldn't connect wit the characters.

What about the movie do you enjoy?
Plot twists, intricate plots in general -- especially with surprise twists/endings (but definitely no major plot holes, annoying incongruities, or a reliance on deus ex machine). So the "Usual Suspects" would be a prime example as would the unrelated "Taylor, Tinkor, Soldier, Spy." The more complex it is, while remaining realistic within the context of the type of film that it is, the better it is for me. So a sci-fi movie doesn't have to be realistic in light of our current technological capabilities but within the world being created -- it must be congruent and make sense. However, even as a guy, I enjoy a romantic aspect to films (again, crouching tiger but even light-hearted like the relationship between Han and Leia in the original star wars films). I could even get into such "girl films" as the notebook, Amelie, time traveler's wife, joy luck club...

My rule is simple, the deeper it makes me think/reason, or the deeper it makes me feel/empathise/relate, the better it is (unless it's pure eye-candy like The Avengers, Lord of the rings / Hobbit, etc. which I also enjoy despite the lack of making me think or feel deeply).

What type of movies and characters do you enjoy?
Basically answered above I believe. I like all movie types except for many comedies. Intellectual comedies I like, but the crude, absurd, play-the-fool types I don't. But I lean toward documentaries and foreign films, psychologically-based films (stay, blindness, perfect sense); political / espionage dramas (skyfall, Syriana, good night, good luck, bourne), sci-fi films, crime films (end of watch, departed, etc.).

Thanks again

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

Ofc you have two sides, all functions operate by a duality. You're feeling the Fe tug urging you to be the nice guy.

I'm with Absurdity.

How were you as a kid and during your adolescent years? Not yet balanced individuals, people's types can be a bit more obvious when they haven't got control of their tertiaries and inferiors while their dominant gets to rule.

Thanks to Cherrie Cola and everyone that responded! As for your question Cherry Cola, as a child I was always the "diplomat" (one of my nicknames in high school also). I would help amend friendship issues, was the dumping ground for problems from peers and adults alike, worked to keep harmony, in my house, in my school, etc. I think this, over the years, burned me out and made me even more distant / introverted as a adult. I'm pretty empathic; get frisson easily; feel the pain of others when the cause of an injury is described, know what people are going to say (most of the time) well before they finish, know the "right words to say" to develop a deeper connection when it is safe to do so. This is where the INFP (I think) side was stronger. But it could just be mental issues. Like, I can feel the after-touch for minutes sometimes after someone taps my shoulder, pokes my back (especially if unexpected / unwanted); certain sounds (e.g. high pitched) make me really uncomfortable when no one else is bothered.

But I was also in my head a lot as a child and loved mythology (could name the gods of the Greeks, Romans, Norse, Aztecs, Egyptians, etc.). I also was really creative and made up my own fantasy worlds -- really vivid imagination. I used to write short stories, loved playing with words (scrabble and other word games, creative writing), etc.

Even as a child, I would not be the first to speak to people and hated parties and the like (except in the rare instances wherein I know all/most there well). My one extroverted tendency was and still is to try to incorporate anyone new into the conversation. If I see anyone new being the odd one out, then I will be the first to communicate to them because I know what it is like being the odd one. Other than that, I hated and still hate initiating the contact, large groups of strangers, etc. Sometimes it drains me so much that I just go home and fall asleep afterwards.

 

[Absurdity]

INFP
"INFPs can commonly be found helping individuals that are sick, disabled, disenfranchised, or otherwise in need."

Definitely me and *want* this to be me... I was just telling a co-worker that for years now, I've been wanting to leave my field of work to do something that actually helps people in need... or else to become a professor / teacher.

This could easily be attributed to inferior extroverted feeling's desire to better humanity. Distinction between Fe's desire to help the whole and Fi's desire to help particulars is important.

"INFPs want to feel inspired. They need their Fi to be stimulated and impassioned. They may therefore seek out, even if unconsciously, experiences that arouse or intensify feelings of passion, inspiration, or meaning. They may turn to relationships, novels, poetry, music, travel, or charity work to achieve their desired level of intensity. In romantic relationships, INFPs can feel restless and dissatisfied when the passion or intrigue wanes."

Definitely me now; I think this covers my deep interest in music, travel, haikus, poetry in general, the fine arts, and high quality novels. Especially in the last couple of years, I've gotten deeply into aesthetics. Always been deep into music, visiting museums of art, etc.

This is probably one of the worst parts of the INFP description because it could be attributed to anyone of any type. IMO I don't think appreciation for arts is determined by the presence or absence of a cognitive function. In your case I still think it could be traced to inferior Fe grip experience, which seems to be what you're in the thick of. Definitely reminds me of Architect's stories of thinking he was an INFJ in his youth and being a humanities nerd.

"Because INFPs are outwardly receptive and non-judgmental, they can serve as veritable dumping grounds for others’ problems. This can engender a sense of emotional heaviness, leading some INFPs to have a tragic or melancholic air about them."

Definitely me; hence the burnout I mentioned in the other post -- this is precisely what happens. I develop a deep rapport with people (especially women), if they are "friends" the dumping of their problems begin, if they are not the "just friends" type -- even worse for me now because I cannot act on what develops and must shut it all down.

Again, bad description on PJ's part (who doesn't want to describe themselves as "receptive and non-judgmental?"). The other post you allude to is telling (I think I picked the right one):

Yet, when I have to be around them (work, school, other social-obligations, etc.) I try to keep the peace and to minimize my "oddness." To some (a few) I am gregarious, cocky, and witty. To others I am an anti-social, socially-awkward, guy who eschews social events and just wants to do what I have to do and then get out at the end of the day. The more I get involved -- the more mentally draining it becomes.

Trying to keep the peace: textbook inferior Fe
"To some I am gregarious, cocky, and witty" Ne-Fe INTP charm. As you mention though you have a very limited reserve of it.

"Almost always lovers of nature, many take to the trails, mountains, and wilderness in hopes of passionately connecting with what they see as the essence of life."

Definitely me. I just recently described to a co-worker that the perfect vacation for me would be a trip to the mountains, alone, for a week just observing nature and thinking. This is why I love national parks, hiking, camping, etc. Feel more alive when I can just think and take in the natural wonder.

Again, vague and generic description anyone could identify with. See: Forer Effect

"Of all types, INFPs are among those most explicitly concerned with achieving a holistic balance of mind (Ne), body (Si), and emotions (Fi). Toward this end, they often populate self-help, “human potential,” or bodywork seminars. Such holistic practices may also serve as attractive and viable career paths for many INFPs. They may find their niche in alternative or complementary medicine, homeopathy, naturopathy, Reiki, etc. Others might opt to study psychology,..."

This is also me to the letter (on the mental / alternative medicine aspect -- not the body-work stuff).

IMO INTPs are just as likely. See Architect's wacky diet

When I read the two profiles all I see is me in both. It might as well be one profile combined on one page and called INFTP. Still feel like I have two sides. One that has a deep need and desire to explore who and what I am on a mental, spiritual, emotional level -- and another side that wants to analyze all of these varying factors and come to the most logical, cohesive, unified understanding possible.

This is because INTPs have a feeling function and when it is not well understood or integrated it can seem to be very prominent. You display many of the hallmarks of an INTP's inferior Fe and few if any of an INFP's dominant Fi. Fe is "extensive," according to PJ, while Fi is intensive. An INTP is more apt to get heated about social justice issues or whatever, whereas an INFP might burst into tears at the sight of some roadkill (slight caricature on my part). An INTP would want to help people in the abstract but be very drained in a helping career like as a social worker or psychiatrist, whereas an INFP will be motivated to help a particular person or thing and be deeply galvanized by the experience.

If you still aren't convinced, this is checkmate IMO:

Unlike Fe, Fi is not overly concerned with cultivating positive feelings or good morale in a social environment (IFPs do like harmony, but this has more to do with their being uncomfortable with conflict than wanting to cultivate Fe rapport). Rather than focusing on general morale or interpersonal harmony, Fi is concerned with helping specific individuals who have personally moved or otherwise affected them.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

Just took another test last night, took it quickly, without trying to get my scores to be a certain way -- never took the test before and it seemed to add extra questions (three times it said something like, "just a few more questions"). It was about 40 questions altogether but the 25quiz suggests only 25 questions... maybe I'm wrong. Once again, my scores were very close for INTP/INFP giving the edge to INTP.

http://www.25quiz.com/
19% INTP
17% INFP
13% INTJ
11% INFJ
11% ISTP

I don't know why I care so much; guess because if something is "wrong" I want to get it right. But as I looked through the responses for this test on this forum, most people did not have results like mine. There results had numbers (percentages) in the thirties, forties, I saw some in the fifties... mine have a max spread of 8%... just doesn't sound right. It is what it is I guess.

 

[Grayman]

Just took another test last night, took it quickly, without trying to get my scores to be a certain way -- never took the test before and it seemed to add extra questions (three times it said something like, "just a few more questions"). It was about 40 questions altogether but the 25quiz suggests only 25 questions... maybe I'm wrong. Once again, my scores were very close for INTP/INFP giving the edge to INTP.

http://www.25quiz.com/
19% INTP
17% INFP
13% INTJ
11% INFJ
11% ISTP

I don't know why I care so much; guess because if something is "wrong" I want to get it right. But as I looked through the responses for this test on this forum, most people did not have results like mine. There results had numbers (percentages) in the thirties, forties, I saw some in the fifties... mine have a max spread of 8%... just doesn't sound right. It is what it is I guess.

You seem to answer down the line on all my questions. There were only a few things that stood out and then you answered with things that flipped it back the other way.

When you call a person logical what does that mean for you exactly? Are they a person who has organized thoughts, who is consistent, or whose feelings make sense to you? What about ethics? Do you enjoy a person who is knowledgeable. Do you like people more for the information they provide in emotion and thought or for their ability to honestly express their feelings deeply and true.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

You seem to answer down the line on all my questions. There were only a few things that stood out and then you answered with things that flipped it back the other way.

When you call a person logical what does that mean for you exactly? Are they a person who has organized thoughts, who is consistent, or whose feelings make sense to you? What about ethics? Do you enjoy a person who is knowledgeable. Do you like people more for the information they provide in emotion and thought or for their ability to honestly express their feelings deeply and true.

Hello Grayman, my answers are below. "Absurdity's" responses have given me a much better understanding of the role that the inferior Fe aspect is playing in my life and I think he is spot on with the analysis. Nonetheless I am definitely interested in in your views as well in light of the questions you are asking.

When you call a person logical what does that mean for you exactly?
Logical means, for me, anyone who:

1. Does not let tradition/loyalty/bias/perceived personal experience get in the way of objective truth or facts.
2. Takes the time to properly hear the matter before rejecting it and getting familiar with both/all sides of the argument before responding (when possible).
3. Taking the time to understand the terms used, the nuances in the definitions of those terms, and then "coming to terms" with the other party to ensure that each has the same understanding of the key terms in use.
4. Avoiding logical fallacies, sophistry, rhetorical one-upmanship, empty appeals to emotion, etc.

Are they a person who has organized thoughts, who is consistent, or whose feelings make sense to you?

Not sure; a person can have scattered thoughts but those thoughts can still be incorporated into a larger, orderly/rational mode of thinking and reasoning. Consistency is golden; inconsistent reasoning, failure to uphold the same standards or decisions for two equal scenarios is annoying. Saying one thing and then engaging in prolonged activity that denies your words (hypocrisy) is equally frustrating. As for emotions/feelings; I love people with strong, power emotions so long as those emotions are subject to the rational thought/convictions/standards that engender them. People who are passionate about a cause that is rationale appeal to me. People who get overly-emotional over subjective issues, matters of little real import, etc. drain me more than anyone else.

What about ethics?
Ethics are paramount for me; I want nothing to do with someone who is unethical, unjust, or the like. My rule (though I am not perfect at it) is to leave no one worse off after having been in a relationship with me than when I found them. This is my rule especially for the women who have been in my life. Using people just for kicks, to satisfy your needs (while ignoring theirs) is unethical and those who engage in such things I avoid.

Do you enjoy a person who is knowledgeable.
Absolutely; but not necessarily highly educated. I know people with very little schooling but who ponder life; pick up on the connections between the seemingly individual/unrelated things around them, and who have deeper insight than most with much higher levels of advanced education. Depth is the key thing for me. I hate small talk and it limits my advancement at work, etc. Empty words drain me. If it isn't rich in depth of emotion/experience or depth of analysis/thought it is hard for me to stay focused/interested. So I can do religion, philosophy, science, technology, the arts, etc. but (unless it relates to something of greater weight/value) I could not care less about what one bought when they went shopping, how much they saved, what Suzy did at the party yesterday with Bob, etc. Gossip, banality, talking just for the sake of talking = kryptonite.

Do you like people more for the information they provide in emotion and thought or for their ability to honestly express their feelings deeply and true

If I had to pick, it would be the former (information provided). But I have a rich appreciation for anyone who can honestly and deeply expression their feelings when those feelings stem from a rational/logical view of the world. So to "honestly" express "true" feelings really appeals to me as long as the feelings are not based on whim, fancy, or an unwillingness to honestly look at the facts. Yet, I have grown to appreciate a woman's intuition and recognize that my wife (and other women I have known) have been right about things on a gut level when logic/facts alone would have suggested a different approach.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

...This is because INTPs have a feeling function and when it is not well understood or integrated it can seem to be very prominent. You display many of the hallmarks of an INTP's inferior Fe and few if any of an INFP's dominant Fi. Fe is "extensive," according to PJ, while Fi is intensive. An INTP is more apt to get heated about social justice issues or whatever, whereas an INFP might burst into tears at the sight of some roadkill (slight caricature on my part). An INTP would want to help people in the abstract but be very drained in a helping career like as a social worker or psychiatrist, whereas an INFP will be motivated to help a particular person or thing and be deeply galvanized by the experience.

If you still aren't convinced, this is checkmate IMO:

Incredibly helpful; definitely agree with the social injustice versus road-kill; which would explain my strong "crusader/activist" leanings. In fact, everything you wrote/quoted is spot on and makes total sense. This was more helpful than you likely realize; very much appreciated.

I do have one last question; you wrote of an "inferior Fe grip experience" and "This is because INTPs have a feeling function and when it is not well understood or integrated it can seem to be very prominent." Do you know of any books, articles, etc. that would cover dealing with the "inferior Fe grip" and with properly integrating the feeling function. I'll research it on my own as well but any assistance would be greatly appreciated. It sounds like a better understanding of these things (Fe integration), rather than gravitating towards the viewpoint that I have a mental disorder (as I have been), is the best route to go. Again, thanks for your input.

 

[Absurdity]

Incredibly helpful; definitely agree with the social injustice versus road-kill; which would explain my strong "crusader/activist" leanings. In fact, everything you wrote/quoted is spot on and makes total sense. This was more helpful than you likely realize; very much appreciated.

I do have one last question; you wrote of an "inferior Fe grip experience" and "This is because INTPs have a feeling function and when it is not well understood or integrated it can seem to be very prominent." Do you know of any books, articles, etc. that would cover dealing with the "inferior Fe grip" and with properly integrating the feeling function. I'll research it on my own as well but any assistance would be greatly appreciated. It sounds like a better understanding of these things (Fe integration), rather than gravitating towards the viewpoint that I have a mental disorder (as I have been), is the best route to go. Again, thanks for your input.

Personality Junkie's articles will usually touch on it. The guy has some general articles for all types, and he also mentions the INTP manifestations of it in a few different articles as well. The one on INTP career choice has a good summary IMO:

The Role of the Inferior Function in INTP Careers

There seems to be a fair amount of irrationality at play in career decision-making, with people commonly choosing careers poorly suited for their personality type. The reason for this apparent irrationality, as I’ve explained in other posts, is that such decisions are being driven by our often overlooked, yet extremely potent, inferior function. This may lead Thinking types, for instance, to be drawn to careers better suited for Feeling types, and vice-versa.

INTPs should be aware of the multiple faces of their inferior function, Extraverted Feeling (Fe). When it comes to careers, their Fe compels them to function in ways exemplified by ENFJs (for whom Fe is dominant). In a nutshell, ENFJs function as teachers and counselors. They like to provide counsel and advice to others to help them improve their lives. Similarly, INTPs like to think of themselves as wise philosophers. They dream of a career where they can seek wisdom and share it with others. This dream also includes a huge ego pay-off for INTPs, in which others lavish them with praise and affirmation for their intelligence and wisdom. So Fe does not merely compel INTPs to act as wise sages, but perhaps even more so, it seeks broad-scale validation and affirmation.

This desire for affirmation and validation may cause INTPs to overlook good career options because, on the surface, such careers seem too far removed from the source of their desired validation: people. So rather than choosing a career in science, for instance, INTPs may opt for what amounts to a “quick fix” for their inferior and select a people-oriented career, such as healthcare or human services. While at first blush, such people-oriented careers may “feel right” to INTPs (or more specifically, to their inferior function), it is rarely long before they realize that this is not the case. INTPs are better off with a career that allows them to use their top two functions (Ti and Ne) to help others (Fe) in a less direct fashion. Examples of this are provided below.

One user on this forum in particular, Architect, has written a good deal about INTP grip experiences. He has a popular advice thread that is worth looking over.

Ah I don't know if you read this article I mentioned a few posts up but it does a good job as well.

 

[BigApplePi]

Hello Benjamin Sainclair. Glad you made this thread and it's a wonderful example of something I'm looking for to explain a theory of Primary temperament and Secondary temperament I'm at the moment interested in. I propose this here = MBTI Explanation, but you need not read it. All it says is there are primaries and secondaries.

I tend to like Absurdity's interpretations. I would like to trust them for the moment. Most here say you are INTP. Let's go with that.

What I'm interested in is the proposal that you have developed or are concentrating on Fe. You are still a Primary INTP. Now to a secondary description.

Absurdity. He entered this thread with a question he is puzzling about: INTP or INFP? This has pure Fi content I say. That is, the puzzlement part, not the intellectual Ti inquiry. INFP = Fi Ne Si Te. One could go over the posts of his looking for Ne Si Te on the subject. I propose they are there. This is what I mean by an exhibition of a secondary "temperament." This thread is a devotion/dedication to his inside internal Fi emotion of solving (desire to solve) a problem. If it looks like INFP, talks like INFP, acts like INFP, then isn't it?

Perhaps Ti always has an Fi on its backside. I'm leaving out ISFP thoughts.

 

[Absurdity]

Absurdity. He entered this thread with a question he is puzzling about: INTP or INFP? This has pure Fi content I say. That is, the puzzlement part, not the intellectual Ti inquiry.

Um, what? Ti users can't be puzzled? "Pure Fi content I say" Wtf does that even mean? You're going to have to do a much better job of supporting these claims.

INFP = Fi Ne Si Te. One could go over the posts of his looking for Ne Si Te on the subject. I propose they are there.

Again, lack of support makes this "proposal" outlandish.

This is what I mean by an exhibition of a secondary "temperament." This thread is a devotion/dedication to his inside internal Fi emotion of solving (desire to solve) a problem. If it looks like INFP, talks like INFP, acts like INFP, then isn't it?

Except he doesn't look like an INFP at all, you're just strangely asserting he is and presenting some pet theory that will only further confuse the OP, who clearly is new to MBTI and cognitive functions.

Perhaps Ti always has an Fi on its backside. I'm leaving out ISFP thoughts.

I don't even know what this means.

 

[BigApplePi]

It's not that complicated. Ti = internal thinking doesn't not exist wo some feeling. Ti = internal thinking doesn't exist wo feeling about that thinking. Benjamin Sainclair himself says, "Does anyone have any thoughts or insight on this?" Do you think that a cool statement made after preceding it with paragraph upon paragraph of puzzlement? He in not a computer. Computers do internal thinking wo feeling. His feeling is not spread outward like Fe although his post is Fe. He feels it inwardly = Fi. Ask him if you don't believe me. If he says no, I will back off, you INTJ, you.

 

[Absurdity]

Ti = internal thinking doesn't not exist wo feeling.

This sentence is a triple negative at least, and I have no idea what it's suppose to mean. Which makes it extra difficult to understand the rest of your argument:

Benjamin Sainclair himself says, "Does anyone have any thoughts or insight on this?" Do you think that a cool statement made after preceding it with paragraph upon paragraph of puzzlement? He in not a computer. Computers do internal thinking wo feeling. His feeling is not spread outward like Fe although his post is Fe. He feels it inwardly = Fi. Ask him if you don't believe me. If he says no, I will back off, you INTJ, you.

You're psychoanalyzing his post instead of using the evidence he provides to draw to conclusions, and your analysis is not very compelling.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

Personality Junkie's articles will usually touch on it. The guy has some general articles for all types, and he also mentions the INTP manifestations of it in a few different articles as well. The one on INTP career choice has a good summary IMO:



One user on this forum in particular, Architect, has written a good deal about INTP grip experiences. He has a popular advice thread that is worth looking over.

Ah I don't know if you read this article I mentioned a few posts up but it does a good job as well.

Gone through several of these and more -- all very good. I will go through architects Q&A as well. Thanks again for the insight!

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

It's not that complicated. Ti = internal thinking doesn't not exist wo feeling. Benjamin Sainclair himself says, "Does anyone have any thoughts or insight on this?" Do you think that a cool statement made after preceding it with paragraph upon paragraph of puzzlement? He in not a computer. Computers do internal thinking wo feeling. His feeling is not spread outward like Fe although his post is Fe. He feels it inwardly = Fi. Ask him if you don't believe me. If he says no, I will back off, you INTJ, you.

BigApplePie, thanks for responding. I appreciate your willingness to reply to my initial questions and your attempt to assist with my confusion over these matters. However, much of this is still code to me. The statement "INFP = Fi Ne Si Te. One could go over the posts of his looking for Ne Si Te on the subject" is way beyond my ability to understand at this time. I get a very elementary gist (based upon some of the links "Absurdity" provided) but my understanding of the primary, auxiliary, tertiary language is abecedarian at best and the abbreviations confuse me.

Also, when you say "His feeling is not spread outward like Fe although his post is Fe. He feels it inwardly = Fi. Ask him if you don't believe me" all I can think is "despite the links "Absurdity" provided, I still do not understand what the sentence really means." So I couldn't really say yes or no because I lack the requisite understanding. But again, I appreciate the reply.

BTW, I put "Absurdity" in quotes due only to my discomfort in refering to him as such because none of his words have been absurd but very helpful.

 

[Grayman]

BTW, I put "Absurdity" in quotes due only to my discomfort in refering to him as such because none of his words have been absurd but very helpful.

My intuition insists that you are INFP.

Your values may coincide with others but yours seem to define you more than theirs. Most of your logic is stemmed from ethics and your values. When you watch a movie you do not care so much about the movie if the characters do not have good values. You are also irritated by people whose values are not well thought out. You spend a lot of time organizing your values and thoughts and you find this expectation of others but you do not want to cause issues. If asked to go against your value system you would refuse and likely you would get upset if they insisted but you would not make waves if they did not follow yours so you feel fairly laid back.

If I am completely off then I am sorry, I could try again but it is likely you should follow Absurdity's lead.

I did think your last comment quoted confirmed how your think like an INFP. We both know Absurdity would not care if you called him by the name he selected so it was not an Fe issue. It was Fi. You likely have a value or feeling of what Absurdity means to you and to call him by the name he selected feels wrong and bothers you. You defined the issue as "my discomfort".


If this is correct so far and you want me to better define it I will put together all the parts together and explain the pieces.

*******************************
Difference between Fe and Fi example

INTP Fe - I don't believe in putting my hand on my heart during the flag salute but I don't want people to misinterpret this as me not disrespecting their opinion.
INFP Fi - I don't believe in putting my hand on my heart and I know that people may not understand this but it is really important to me to be true to my values.

Fe (DOM)- That guy did not put his hand on his heart, I need to confront him about this and make sure he knows how disrespectful he is being.
INFP Fi - I am not causing waves, I am just doing what I believe. Why are you being so emotional for no reason?

 

[PmjPmj]

Individuation can lead to balance.

However, it is my opinion that we have a clear preference for either T or F as our rational judging functions, just as we have a clear preference for S or N when it comes to our perceptions.

Obviously, age should mean our tertiary and inferior functions become better integrated; this could well throw up the illusion of sitting atop the dichotomy fence.

 

[BigApplePi]

Individuation can lead to balance.

However, it is my opinion that we have a clear preference for either T or F as our rational judging functions, just as we have a clear preference for S or N when it comes to our perceptions.

Obviously, age[**] should mean our tertiary and inferior functions become better integrated; this could well throw up the illusion of sitting atop the dichotomy fence.

That seems concise and very well put. Individuation, meaning the development of more* of the eight cognitive functions, means one will have more of both internal and external CF's over the same time period. Thus one can have BOTH Fe and Fi though, as you say, one is favored.

*Who knows? Possibly all eight.
**I would add experience to age.

 

[WALKYRIA]

yeah, same shit here... I always had a strong Fe. Wanted to save the world since ever, and I love music with much sentimentality, I care very much for kids in my family(hug them all the time; although I hate the adults!)... But thing is although my feelings can be strong at times, they are not very complex and if we hve some, than we don't love to share them with public( Personally I cn only share my feelings with my beloved; no one else deserves them...). That's the difference with INFP I think so. We INTP 5w4(the more sentimental ones, and the ones who might be confounded with INFPs or INFJs) have a very limited range of emotions...

SO my guess is that you an INFP 4w5( an INFP with a strung strung Te)... I don't have the rationale for that. Pure intuition from you answers.

This desire for affirmation and validation may cause INTPs to overlook good career options because, on the surface, such careers seem too far removed from the source of their desired validation: people. So rather than choosing a career in science, for instance, INTPs may opt for what amounts to a “quick fix” for their inferior and select a people-oriented career, such as healthcare or human services.

Man, this can not be truer... But do you seriously think that one can become physicist or philosophers without people thinking u nuts? I went into healthcare, and sometimes I find that I care much better for people-- But it's more due to my rather precocious social experiments/exploration of life -- than my fellow SJs(who tend to judge their patients and be selfish; I think tht our selflessness can be a great asset in healthcare !).
Personally I love healthcare because it resonates with almost all our functions: Ti(health= life, biology,science), Fe obviously, Si(certainly)... the only function which is not fed properly is the monster Ne(and yes that hurts a lot to be considered a freak by your boring uncreative colleagues; but at the same time I love to be the disconnected misfit and I learn a lot from it... and differentiate from your basic IT INTP !).
It seems that INTP on forums are coming from IT many times... thus biaised perception of what an INTP is?
I intend to only work in helthcare 2-3 days/week jsut for the money, the rest I intedn to spend it doing my passions... I actually agree with AJD, healthcare is for NFJ/STJ... They can do it all their lives; while I intend to change orientation after 10-15 years in it.

I went into healthcare, not only to please people(Fe), but it was more for the growth process that It brought with it... I think that life is long, and you better get out of your comfort zone early. The earlier, the better. My final goal is to be a writer(I'd like to write a "guide for life for beginners" kinda book !) , and thus I need to know/analyse as much people as I can( Ti-Ne paroxysm)...

And I don't think the world as it is, and its current educational paradigm facilitates IN*P to follow their dreams... Is Physics or philosophy a good deal for INTP, really? I don't personally think so. There is more to life than just feeding Ti-Ne.


OP, do you listen to this kinda lame music? I luv it... I think you INFP man !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVjsGKrE6E8

 

[Coolydudey]

You seem more like an INTP to me. Either way, my most honest advice is: you are taking this wayyyyy too seriously. MBTI is not a science.

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

Everyone has been quite helpful and I appreciate the responses. At this point, I do not want to drag this out further and take up more of people's time. I will wrap it up with this response.

I read Absurdity's posts and referenced material, I agreed with everything I read. Yet, when I read Grayman's last post, especially the flag salute example, it sounded true to me... today. Yet there are many times when I think like the INTP in Grayman's example -- just not yesterday and today. Here is the bottom line for me. When I am alone for extended periods, not reading anything, just pondering my views, beliefs, and values, I think more like an INFP (using Grayman's example language and going by this http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/healer.asp -- in fact, this link represents what I was as a child to early teen)." However, since I am not often alone for extended periods of time, rarely go unchallenged (either by people or the material I encounter), but am almost always around those who differ from my views, values, beliefs, I live as an INTP... I am literally this person http://www.keirsey.com/4temps/architect.asp to the core. It is rare that I go back to purely being the person in the first link; what I know the vast majority of the time is the second link. Yet, throughout the day, it feels like I have this dual mind. I can oscillate between the INFP (in the flag salute example) and the INTP on the same day, several times a day even (as ridiculous as I know that sounds). Other times, it's straight INTP mindset for days on end. It's a complete lack of balance, no consistency; like my mind doesn't know who or what to be so it flip flops - sometimes on a whim.

So why does this type stuff matter? Why do I take it so seriously and need to calm down? It's because I need answers so that, hopefully, I can figure out the problem and do something about it. Maybe it's beyond my hands at this point. Simply imagine a massive funnel. I was at the top once; there was a lot of light there. I'm heading deeper down the funnel and it isn't so bright. Isolation is becoming a major problem (even in my own home). I have people who want to be friends, who try to reach out to me, but I feel such a lack of relatedness -- see nothing in common -- that I feel completely alone in the midst of plenty of people who wouldn't want me to be. If I keep slipping down the funnel, it's as if I will never make it back out -- sometimes I think I've already crossed the line. I have this mindset, this feeling, that if I can just figure it out, get it straight, I can do something about it and stop the slippery slope. I keep thinking that there is some factor that I'm missing, some piece of the puzzle that can explain/address all. Yet, this is all well beyond the scope of this forum. As it stands, whether I am an INTP with strong Fe or an INFP with strong Fi, or Ti (or however it is supposed to go), it is just too confusing for me. I cannot process it at this point and likely need to read a lot more before I can come to a rational conclusion either way. Once said conclusion is reached, the question becomes, how to use this information in a way that will effect the need change in my psyche. Maybe I've reached the end of my analytical capabilities on these matters and need to leave it to those who do it professionally. Nothing against you all, I appreciate your input, but I simply cannot wrap my mind around these things in a way that (as I had hoped) would have shed some needful light. So I will leave it at this but thank everyone for their time, effort, and input!

Thanks again.

 

[BigApplePi]

@Benjamin Sainclair.

Maybe I've reached the end of my analytical capabilities on these matters ...

Sounds like you are saying goodbye. I hope you'd peek in here every once in a while because I'm thinking over and have been thinking over the ambiguities of the type issue for quite a while. I'm not satisfied either. I'm frustrated because I feel I'm running out of time.

Unlike Coolydudey I believe the MBTI is a science (or can be anyway) because psychology is a science. It can be addressed just as anything in psychology can be addressed and is subject to the scientific method.

 

[Cherry Cola]

If you're so hellbent on pigeonholing yourself then you should study MBTI holistically, easier to see where you fit if all the rest of them pieces are there. Ie read about all the types, perhaps buy a book, study the functions carefully etc.

Although it really shouldn't be so difficult to determine what you are anyway. To me it just looks like you're expecting a categorical definite that will fit you like a glove from a foggy abstract construct (MBTI); wherefore, instead of determining your type by means of function analysis, you get hung up on type descriptions. Remember there are 16 types to account for 6 billion people. Ofc similar types have a lot in common and likewise tis pretty obvious that the types are pretty broad so as to be able to account for everyone.

There are plenty of people who stand out in their given types. Displaying atypical behavior and thinking on a surface level. That's why you got to pin it down to functions.

 

[BigApplePi]

If you're so hellbent on pigeonholing yourself then you should study MBTI

Okay Cherry. I'm hellbent on breaking this MBTI thing before it breaks me. Last week I was driving alone in my car where no one can see or detect my feelings. Was thinking about a pet I had lost and started to feel something. I let it take me over and started bawling like a baby. Are you going to tell me this INTP (me) didn't feel that? If I was quite conscious of it, isn't that Fi? Don't tell me it's anything else ... what could it be? Wasn't I leading with Fi? Doesn't that mean I was temporarily taking on the temperament of an IxFP?

Although it really shouldn't be so difficult to determine what you are anyway. To me it just looks like you're expecting a categorical definite that will fit you like a glove from a foggy abstract construct (MBTI);

I agree, maybe a mitten.

There are plenty of people who stand out in their given types. Displaying atypical behavior and thinking on a surface level. That's why you got to pin it down to functions.

I call this atypical behavior "Secondary temperament." The main temperament is the Primary. Atypical behavior has cognitive functions or don't you believe that? No one here will buy it.

 

[Grayman]

Okay Cherry. I'm hellbent on breaking this MBTI thing before it breaks me. Last week I was driving alone in my car where no one can see or detect my feelings. Was thinking about a pet I had lost and started to feel something. I let it take me over and started bawling like a baby. Are you going to tell me this INTP (me) didn't feel that? If I was quite conscious of it, isn't that Fi? Don't tell me it's anything else ... what could it be? Wasn't I leading with Fi? Doesn't that mean I was temporarily taking on the temperament of an IxFP?

This happens a lot to me. Often my inner world is more real than my outer. I did not shed a tear until I was alone and had time to consider the real ramifications of the death. The thoughts would not let me be until I stumbled on the trigger to let the emotions flow out of me. I believe it is part of an INTP process. Our emotions can hide just outside our vision and then burst out of us when we least expect it. Even then I think our simple sadness does not compare to the multitude and complex structures of feeling in an Fi. My saddness was rather simple but strong and very blunt. The INFP I know can weave emotion into art. I can only express the basics of what feel and only if it fits into some form of logical structure.


********************

Mr Logic saw a creature and decided to try and determine what it was. He gets out his tape measure and square ruler and protractor and begins taking measurements of the ears, legs, body, hair, snout, eyes. He even indicates color and hue. Roughness of hair. He is very percise and spends a lot of time examining the different parts. After five hours he cannot determine what it is. It is so like many things but nothing at all.
Mr Intuition comes by and sees Logic taking his measurements. Intuition askes "What are you doing?". Logic states "I am trying to define this creature." I even took a DNA sample and compared it to other creatures but I cannot find a 100% match. It is like a creature like no other but similar in so many ways.
Mr Intution takes one look at the creature and exclaims "Oh, thats just a dog." Logic is astounded and the speed in which Intuition acheived his answer. Logic exclaims "How did you figure this out and without a ruler!".
Intuition answers "Because it looks like a dog.".

 

[crippli]

Okay Cherry. I'm hellbent on breaking this MBTI thing before it breaks me. Last week I was driving alone in my car where no one can see or detect my feelings. Was thinking about a pet I had lost and started to feel something. I let it take me over and started bawling like a baby. Are you going to tell me this INTP (me) didn't feel that? If I was quite conscious of it, isn't that Fi? Don't tell me it's anything else ... what could it be? Wasn't I leading with Fi? Doesn't that mean I was temporarily taking on the temperament of an IxFP?

It's not what you feel. It's what you do. A T will make decisions based on logic and objective analysis. An F will make decisions to create harmony and people centered values. It's not even what you think. It's in that situation. What do you do? Do you go with the mob? Create harmony by burning the witch so all can be happy?

Personally. I feel the MBTI theory is to vague to use for clear labeling. A photographer once said;

"There is nothing worse then to make a sharp picture of a fuzzy concept".

 

[Cherry Cola]

BAP: Now you're saying that people don't have inner feelings without Fi in their stack? Non-distinctive descriptions of functions are an issue with MBTI, and they should be avoided when determining what functions are at work in a stack.

Come on that's basic stuff. It's like saying "oh you remember something? You can picture something that happened before visually in your head? You must have Si!".

What you call secondary temparent is what I think falls outside the realm of MBTI. Shadow functions are described speculatively at best. It is better simply to recognize that types do not constitute complete descriptions of specific individuals.

If you start taking things like "has inner emotions" and "can recall scenes from past events in life" or "will at times put things in order" as signs of their most indicative functions then everyone has all functions.
However, once we move past the inferior, we end up at the fringes of MBTI. There are a ton of different theories trying to account for the so called Shadow-functions in detail. All of them fail, and none of them can be backed up with actual observations of people. Likely because the Shadow functions -even if they exists as such- account for such a small portion of behavior that they are overshadowed by any one function in the primary stack. Because they play such a small part it's pretty much impossible to put them in order or even distinguish between them clearly.

Hence the fact that no one has achieved anything by considering Shadow Functions. Furthermore, regarding your example, as already stated; all types can have crying spells alone. What's the point in calling that "secondary temperament" or a case of a surfacing "shadow function" when both those concepts are vague and lack explanatory power? I concur that MBTI has limits that it should not cross, at least not before it's ready to.

And even if you disagree with this, Shadow Functions and Secondary Temperaments are speculative and at the fringes of MBTI, and are thus not relevant when typing someone anyway.

 

[BigApplePi]

Attempt @ Clarity of a Complex Topic

@Cherry Cola

Cherry. I have an idea in my head and I think language is a lot of the problem.

BAP: Now you're saying that people don't have inner feelings without Fi in their stack? Non-distinctive descriptions of functions are an issue with MBTI, and they should be avoided when determining what functions are at work in a stack.

I'm not thinking "stack." I'm probably not ready to say this well. Doesn't an ordered stack refer to "ease of use" a defined type is? If you are an INFJ, then INFJ = Ni Fe Ti Se (<-- code for CF stack order according to my notes.) I'm claiming when an INTP = Ti Ne Si Fe gets into an Fi state, the stack gets wacked. The INTP loses his INTP characteristics and behaves like a lead Fi = IxFP.

Come on that's basic stuff. It's like saying "oh you remember something? You can picture something that happened before visually in your head? You must have Si!".

You are going for a point but I fail to understand it. What you described is Si, isn't it? What kind of Si it is depends on where it is in the stack. An ISxJ has it as a primary lead CF. For an ESxJ, it is auxiliary. For an INTP, it is tertiary. For an ENxP it is inferior = last. (<-- I'm not smart enough to remember all that. I got it from my notes.)

Are you really an INFJ? If so, you don't have it at all. You don't have Si ... normally. So I have to ask you, what do you do with sensation? Do you normally experience it as an external event, that is Se? What happens if you have a headache, stomach ache or worse? Can it take you over? Can it wipe your lead Ni out of your psyche?

What you call secondary temparent is what I think falls outside the realm of MBTI. Shadow functions are described speculatively at best. It is better simply to recognize that types do not constitute complete descriptions of specific individuals.

Suppose it is put this way: Type represents the primary temperament of the individual. I'm not ready to use the term, "shadow function." That seems like cheating if it is not explained. "Secondary temperament" may not be the best term. How about "Secondary Disposition"? though I think we could do better in word choice. If something falls outside the realm of the MBTI, well what I'm doing is trying to bring something in.

In your prior message you used the words, "atypical behavior." I'm after that. I admit to typical behavior. That is what the MBTI is for. We need a handle on atypical behavior and I'm going after that.

BTW I proposed a 2ndary temperament to the great Adymus but he wiggled away before anything congealed in my mind. I can't tolerate the slipperiness of it in my INTP mind.

=======================================
@Grayman.

This happens a lot to me. Often my inner world is more real than my outer. I did not shed a tear until I was alone and had time to consider the real ramifications of the death. The thoughts would not let me be until I stumbled on the trigger to let the emotions flow out of me. I believe it is part of an INTP process. Our emotions can hide just outside our vision and then burst out of us when we least expect it. Even then I think our simple sadness does not compare to the multitude and complex structures of feeling in an Fi. My saddness was rather simple but strong and very blunt. The INFP I know can weave emotion into art. I can only express the basics of what feel and only if it fits into some form of logical structure.

What you describe I claim is Fi. Cherry mentioned the "stack." It remains to analyze this. It may not relate to the INTP stack at all. Then again it may. Yet to be determined.

Mr Logic saw a creature and decided to try and determine what it was. He gets out his tape measure and square ruler and protractor and begins taking measurements of the ears, legs, body, hair, snout, eyes. He even indicates color and hue. Roughness of hair. He is very percise and spends a lot of time examining the different parts. After five hours he cannot determine what it is. It is so like many things but nothing at all.
Mr Intuition comes by and sees Logic taking his measurements. Intuition askes "What are you doing?". Logic states "I am trying to define this creature." I even took a DNA sample and compared it to other creatures but I cannot find a 100% match. It is like a creature like no other but similar in so many ways.
Mr Intution takes one look at the creature and exclaims "Oh, thats just a dog." Logic is astounded and the speed in which Intuition acheived his answer. Logic exclaims "How did you figure this out and without a ruler!".
Intuition answers "Because it looks like a dog.".

Mr. Logic was able to take measurements but failed to identify the whole.
Mr. Intuition observing what Mr. Logic was doing said, "This is truly something different. Let's call it a griffin.

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@crippli.

It's not what you feel. It's what you do. A T will make decisions based on logic and objective analysis. An F will make decisions to create harmony and people centered values. It's not even what you think. It's in that situation. What do you do? Do you go with the mob? Create harmony by burning the witch so all can be happy?

Personally. I feel the MBTI theory is to vague to use for clear labeling. A photographer once said;

"There is nothing worse then to make a sharp picture of a fuzzy concept".

I would love to make this thing sharper. The foundational approach I'm taking is that of the cognitive function. CF's are conscious.

Feeling, thinking, or doing ... it's the consciousness that counts in this my working theory. The MBTI literature uses fuzzy images. The clincher I propose is to examine what are the conscious cognitive functions, list them and that is one's type.

 

[Cherry Cola]

To put it bluntly then: the guy wonders what his mbti type is, you're giving him speculative info that isn't part of the MBTI system. Now what did you not get?

Again going by your reasoning everyone has all functions at all.

Experience an extraverted sensation such as the taste of food? Se function!
Remember something? Fi function!
etc etc...

Functions are cognitive patterns of thinking that stand out. They are not there just because one of the things involved in this pattern happens to occur. Te isn't there just because a person does something in an orderly and organized way every now and then. For a function to be present a lot of criteria need to be fulfilled, and relative prominence of behavior and thinking in accordance with a functions characteristics needs to be considered. Not just prominence in itself.

 

[Brontosaurie]

wow if people would just think for one second before posting a massive load of letters and expecting others to parse through them despite that the only conclusion is "hurr durr urr urr urr" with no semblance of reward

that would be great

 

[Brontosaurie]

the only useful post so far:

You seem more like an INTP to me. Either way, my most honest advice is: you are taking this wayyyyy too seriously. MBTI is not a science.

 

[BigApplePi]

Functions are cognitive patterns of thinking that stand out. They are not there just because one of the things involved in this pattern happens to occur. Te isn't there just because a person does something in an orderly and organized way every now and then. For a function to be present a lot of criteria need to be fulfilled, and relative prominence of behavior and thinking in accordance with a functions characteristics needs to be considered. Not just prominence in itself.

Perhaps it's a matter of degree. Lots makes a temperament. A little makes a behavior. The MBTI historically deals with quantity ... lots of quantity. When one has a little what I'm doing is identifying secondary behavior. We want to distinguish between secondary behavior and major temperament. Can we agree on that?

 

[Brontosaurie]

you still don't understand a lick of what CC is saying

read again and again til you do instead of compulsively replying

please

 

[Cherry Cola]

A distinction should be made only if it has explanatory value.

What such a distinction constitutes now is nothing more than a name for all the behaviors which do not fall under the 4 cognitive functions, which however everyone has. Ie it says nothing.

What is the point of Including this into MBTI when it cannot be systematically and without any empirical basis? It is better to simply call it human behavior and define the 4 main functions by their relative prominence.

Another consequence of having all and any behavior be a sign of a function at work is that there would need to exist more functions.

 

[BigApplePi]

Hi Brontosaurie.