Avatar. Would We Want It?

[BigApplePi]

If you had access to some planet aka moon called Avatar or Pandora or whatever would you say it was worth obtaining the mineral "unobtainium" at the cost of destroying nice indigenous humanoid people? That if it was worth twenty million dollars per kilo 2010 money? In case you are not sure of the scenario, this Pandora people's homeland it sitting on a mountain of the stuff.

If you don't believe me, ....., well you'd got to believe me or else see the movie.

 

[y4r5xeym5]

I never did see the point in that during the movie to be honest. It's just a rock, whose purpose was never explained to begin with.

To answer your question though, doing anything for the money is just stupid in my opinion.

 

[Hawkeye]

Why do you need to bring imaginary materials and locations into it?

We do stuff like that now to lesser developed countries. Take Nestlé for example.

 

[Dormouse]

I'm certain there would be ways to extract small quantities of the stuff either from different locations or with the consent and supervision of the natives.

It's not worth destroying the culture for... Especially the one represented in the film, their interactions with their planet was amazing and would be a valuable scientific asset to study. They'd be fascinating from an antropological point of view, too, and anyways, no sadist these days wants to go around destroying cultures/commiting genocide.

 

[Cognisant]

The methods used in the movie were unnecessarily brutal, personally I'm surprised they didn't start manufacturing some commodity with which they could use to trade for the ore, for example they clearly had an in-depth understanding of the local's physiology, why didn’t they create some sort of addictive drug?

Violence is just so wasteful, what's the gain in ostracising potential employees?

 

[BigApplePi]

I never did see the point in that during the movie to be honest. It's just a rock, whose purpose was never explained to begin with.

To answer your question though, doing anything for the money is just stupid in my opinion.

Not sure if you mean this, but "unobtainium" was some mineral that floated or defied gravitation. That would make it valuable because it meant you could run things on Earth without friction meaning no oil needed. (I'm just guessing.)

 

[BigApplePi]

Why do you need to bring imaginary materials and locations into it?

We do stuff like that now to lesser developed countries. Take Nestlé for example.

You don't like chocolate Hawkeye? Why not?

 

[y4r5xeym5]

Not sure if you mean this, but "unobtainium" was some mineral that floated or defied gravitation. That would make it valuable because it meant you could run things on Earth without friction meaning no oil needed. (I'm just guessing.)

You'd think they could just take a sample back and figure out how to produce it themselves.

I don't know, just my take on it. I found the plot in the movie wanting.

 

[BigApplePi]

I'm certain there would be ways to extract small quantities of the stuff either from different locations or with the consent and supervision of the natives.

It's not worth destroying the culture for... Especially the one represented in the film, their interactions with their planet was amazing and would be a valuable scientific asset to study. They'd be fascinating from an antropological point of view, too, and anyways, no sadist these days wants to go around destroying cultures/commiting genocide.

I think they implied the mother load was under the big town where all the natives lived. Taking small samples would be too expensive.

As for the culture, that's what Dr. Signorney Weaver wanted to study. But her boss gave the project to the colonel to try to take over peacefully -- sort of. Then the natives resisted so he had to take stronger action. My question would be, "Why did the natives resist after being warned?"

 

[Hawkeye]

You don't like chocolate Hawkeye? Why not?

My point was that Nestlé are the equivalent to the Military organisation in Avatar. They expolited natives to gain access to their fields for cheap prices and then almost killed them off by poisoning them.

They are not a very nice company.

 

[BigApplePi]

The methods used in the movie were unnecessarily brutal, personally I'm surprised they didn't start manufacturing some commodity with which they could use to trade for the ore, for example they clearly had an in-depth understanding of the local's physiology, why didn’t they create some sort of addictive drug?

Violence is just so wasteful, what's the gain in ostracising potential employees?

I think I remember the natives were very happy with the way things were. They had everything they needed anyway. About the addictive drug: they wanted to keep the movie simple so they left that very real complication out. I paid $13.50 to see it. Add another hour and I'd have to pay $17.50

As for violence being wasteful, I think the colonel thought, "no problem." I can do my job any way I need to and I will do what I need to do to get the job done.

 

[Kuu]

You don't need such removed examples Hawkeye... there are much closer ones *cough* Iraq *cough*

*capitain obvious, once again having not saved the day, flies away to annoy someone else*

 

[Dormouse]

I think they implied the mother load was under the big town where all the natives lived. Taking small samples would be too expensive.

At twenty-million a kilo? There was a whole planet. It's very likely there would have been other sources, unless the mineral was depositted by an asteroid or some such thing, but that's pure speculation.

As for the culture, that's what Dr. Signorney Weaver wanted to study. But her boss gave the project to the colonel to try to take over peacefully -- sort of. Then the natives resisted so he had to take stronger action. My question would be, "Why did the natives resist after being warned?"

They had evolved along the same lines as humans and become extremely territorial. And surely they felt some injustice was being done. It's very difficult for some people to cut and run, minimalizing their loses, especially when there's a sense of being wronged.

Not to mention the presence of their spirit tree.

 

[BigApplePi]

You'd think they could just take a sample back and figure out how to produce it themselves.

I don't know, just my take on it. I found the plot in the movie wanting.

Now that you mention it -- and I didn't realize it before -- I saw a film with exactly the same plot except instead of a valuable mineral, they wanted to mine bird-do or bat-do on some island in the south seas. I told some guy on the internet about it. If I find its name, I'll post it because I have the VCR. Same plot different natives.

 

[Cognisant]

As for violence being wasteful, I think the colonel thought, "no problem." I can do my job any way I need to and I will do what I need to do to get the job done.

Also I'd say it's safe to assume the colonel earned his rank, namely by being a badass normal (heck, personally I thought he was awesome, if misguided) and as is the nature of the human species, it's not enough to simply be stronger, faster, or especially talented, because as a species the human race is defined by one survival trait in which we excel beyond any other creature, sadism.

Humans are the dominant species on earth, because we’re the meanest.

Was the colonel a sadist or is sadism what makes a colonel?
It's a moot question, my point is he shouldn't be judged too harshly.

I blame the pen-pusher who should have known better.

 

[Anthile]

Never watched Avatar but listen to Kuu, guys. Also, there is a character named Dr. Signorney Weaver? That's awesome.

 

[BigApplePi]

My point was that Nestlé are the equivalent to the Military organisation in Avatar. They expolited natives to gain access to their fields for cheap prices and then almost killed them off by poisoning them.

They are not a very nice company.

There must be an awful lot of companies that do this. It has me wondering if there are ANY nice companies. When one has power it's easy to become a bully. If a company is to go in there, what's to stop it from not compensating the natives? It's like eminent domain except that there are rules in the U.S. for eminent domain.

 

[BigApplePi]

At twenty-million a kilo? There was a whole planet. It's very likely there would have been other sources, unless the mineral was depositted by an asteroid or some such thing, but that's pure speculation.

I think you are right. Maybe it was a matter of practicality. Humans found the mother lode and they were too lazy to look elsewhere. Bringing that into the plot would have lost the focus of the movie.

They had evolved along the same lines as humans and become extremely territorial. And surely they felt some injustice was being done. It's very difficult for some people to cut and run, minimalizing their loses, especially when there's a sense of being wronged.

Not to mention the presence of their spirit tree.

I think it a good example of how wars start. Each side thought they were right and believed they could put up a defense. Neither side knew how bad it could get. Knowledge? Kinda impossible to predict what one will do.

That spirit tree is a great idea. We are ALL connected even though we don't realize it.

 

[BigApplePi]

Also I'd say it's safe to assume the colonel earned his rank, namely by being a badass normal (heck, personally I thought he was awesome, if misguided) and as is the nature of the human species, it's not enough to simply be stronger, faster, or especially talented, because as a species the human race is defined by one survival trait in which we excel beyond any other creature, sadism.

Humans are the dominant species on earth, because we’re the meanest.

Was the colonel a sadist or is sadism what makes a colonel?
It's a moot question, my point is he shouldn't be judged too harshly.

I blame the pen-pusher who should have known better.

I'd have to think about that: what to do with the colonel. I don't think of the colonel as sadistic. He was just single-minded and unfeeling. His thought was to do a job and other live creatures didn't count. They were in the way. He did not actively want to hurt. Rather it was hurting that showed his job was being done right. Only in that sense sadistic. Am I making sense?

Actually the colonel and Signorney Weaver's boss (he was the pen-pusher you mean?) was the problem. Hard to say if it was you or me who we would put in charge. How could we have chosen a better boss? Back on Earth next time someone would want to send in a stronger team. A general instead of a colonel.

 

[BigApplePi]

Never watched Avatar but listen to Kuu, guys. Also, there is a character named Dr. Signorney Weaver? That's awesome.

I called her that. Her movie name was Dr. Grace Augustine

 

[Hawkeye]

There must be an awful lot of companies that do this. It has me wondering if there are ANY nice companies. When one has power it's easy to become a bully. If a company is to go in there, what's to stop it from not compensating the natives? It's like eminent domain except that there are rules in the U.S. for eminent domain.

Walmart compensate the natives by offering them jobs at stupid pay rates something along the lines of $1 per hour. They justify themselves by saying that what they offer is greater than what their native country can give them.

To answer your question. There are no nice companies in existance because being nice doesn't pay the bills.

 

[BigApplePi]

Walmart compensate the natives by offering them jobs at stupid pay rates something along the lines of $1 per hour. They justify themselves by saying that what they offer is greater than what their native country can give them.

To answer your question. There are no nice companies in existance because being nice doesn't pay the bills.

More generally perhaps it's not about being nice, but about making change. It's alright for a company to be enterprising but not when it affects people. I think part of the solution is to take a survey of the people as was the job of "Dr." Signorney Weaver. Anthropologist -- is that the word? Then we see how the people would take it. Sell them, con them, force them, or leave them be. I dunno. What's the tipping force?

Something we failed to do in Iraq as was pointed out. On the other hand we had little access to Iraq. We went in blind and stupid and Rumsfeld conned us. He conned me. Rumsfeld = ExTJ?

 

[Dormouse]

the human race is defined by one survival trait in which we excel beyond any other creature, sadism.

Humans are the dominant species on earth, because we’re the meanest.

I must say I disagree with this. Sadism isn't inherently beneficial...

Ruthlessness maybe.

An the colonel was pretty awesome. Like a living cartoon character, you could drop an anvil on him and there was half a chance he'd get back up.
'Air? Fuck air! I've gotta go kill those guys!'

And anyways, I just can't help loving anyone so exagerated.

 

[Cognisant]

I'd have to think about that: what to do with the colonel. I don't think of the colonel as sadistic. He was just single-minded and unfeeling. His thought was to do a job and other live creatures didn't count. They were in the way. He did not actively want to hurt. Rather it was hurting that showed his job was being done right. Only in that sense sadistic. Am I making sense?

Exactly, I didn't use the term ruthless because someone can be ruthless and tactful, but there was nothing tactful about the colonel's methods, he was more than ruthless yet not quite truly sadistic.

Actually the colonel and Signorney Weaver's boss (he was the pen-pusher you mean?) was the problem. Hard to say if it was you or me who we would put in charge. How could we have chosen a better boss? Back on Earth next time someone would want to send in a stronger team. A general instead of a colonel.

Personally I'd have walked straight into the indigenous people's home tree (alone) with a slightly bigger/stronger/better-armoured exosuit, picked up their leader and held him at my mercy, thus making the situation abundantly clear, resistance is futile. Now sure it's hardly the morally righteous course of action but at the same time nobody gets hurt, well not badly anyway, which really is what's most important, because lets face it, with resources of that value up for grabs it's only a matter of time until the indigenous population succumbs to one attack or another.

As long as the ore's there, the human's will not stop.

 

[RandeKnight]

Wouldn't it have been easier to just angle drill? Looked like the deposit was quite a ways under the tree, so they could have mined it without disturbing the tree. Admittedly that's less efficient than surface mining.
Did they even _ask_ about the mineral? Or did they just assume that they were ignorant savages and tell them to move _because_we_said_so_!? Who knows, maybe they could have asked the magic planet network and it would have come up with a better way?

 

[BigApplePi]

Wouldn't it have been easier to just angle drill? Looked like the deposit was quite a ways under the tree, so they could have mined it without disturbing the tree. Admittedly that's less efficient than surface mining.
Did they even _ask_ about the mineral? Or did they just assume that they were ignorant savages and tell them to move _because_we_said_so_!? Who knows, maybe they could have asked the magic planet network and it would have come up with a better way?

Angle drilling would be a rational idea, but after traveling all those interspace miles I think they thought they'd better go after the least expensive method. They had the military to back that idea up and the anthropology team to negotiate. I guess the wrong party won out.

Do you think if Christopher Columbus had brought an anthro-apology team with him the Native Americans would be better off today?