Ask me a music theory question

[some.body]

Doing some harmonic analysis and getting stuck?
Just *what* exactly is a "atonal non-functional chord succession" ?
What's a good place to start learning counterpoint?
Book recommendations?
Rudimentary theory?

Please feel free to ask me any questions you may have and I will do my best to answer them.

 

[BigApplePi]

I am quite ignorant about music (can't read notes) but have always wondered about this question. I like some tunes and dislike others. Some tunes everyone likes and it becomes a hit.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6P7g_qz2OU

Yet very few people can create a hit. Is a hit an acquired taste or is it an extremely difficult formula? I realize that may not phrase the question properly but that's the best I can do for the moment.

 

[Jennywocky]

Yay, someone else who can recognize a Phrygian Dominant on the street!

 

[Rocco]

There was a guy on a forum once who went by the handle Mixolocrian. I was never able to tell whether he was trying to be avant-garde, or just facetious.

Anyhoo, welcome aboard.

 

[some.body]

I am quite ignorant about music (can't read notes) but have always wondered about this question. I like some tunes and dislike others. Some tunes everyone likes and it becomes a hit.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6P7g_qz2OU

Yet very few people can create a hit. Is a hit an acquired taste or is it an extremely difficult formula? I realize that may not phrase the question properly but that's the best I can do for the moment.

Great question, thanks!

Fast answer. It's both an acquired taste and there is a formula.

So, (stating the obvious) what people like to hear is a subjective thing. I really get my kicks from harmony as opposed to rhythm. So there's certain things I like to hear but all the time, even if your not a musician, your ears are changing and hearing/perceiving things in a new way.

Though, there IS undoubtedly a sort of consensus with people in regards to them turning a song into a "hit"
A few things:
In the West, and this is just a generalization with the kinda tune you posted, most people enjoy music being in the time signature 4/4
People loooove, just love dancing to that. It's easy. Almost everything you hear on your generic rock radio station is in 4/4 (4 quarter notes per bar)
In the West your hard pressed to find the "average listening" person being able to dance to or even hear a complex time signature like what you find in the East. Eastern sitar music is all about rhythm and melody with very little harmony going on. They often play modally over what's called a pedal.
The other common time sig nature that we in the West find very easy to feel and dance to is 3/4
Rhythm is king in most popular music.

"is there a formula"?

Okay, so here comes a bit of theory.

In order to make us musicians lives easier and to communicate with each other we will often use what's called functional harmony. Take a look at the C major scale:

1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7. 8
C. D. E. F. G. A. B. C

So, without going into too much if I built a chord on the scale degrees 1 6 2 5
I would end up (using only basic triads at the moment) with the chords:

C
A- (- means minor)
D-
G7

So, there's a formula there. That chord progression, 1 6 2 5, is so unbelievably common that we can safely say that's a progression that is known to most people's ears, weather they are musicians or not and forms the basis of many many pop tunes.
And there's lots more progressions like this that occur frequently in pop music that mosts ears are accustomed to in that it's something they like to hear, just like how they enjoy dancing in4/4

As I said above, it's both an acquired taste and there are some very hard and fast guidelines to writing a pop tune.

I hope that helps some!

Edit: the tune you posted, as I'm sure you can tell, they even count it off in the beginning is in 4/4 and uses a very basic blues chord progression. The only chords in the whole song are 1 4 5

 

[some.body]

Yay, someone else who can recognize a Phrygian Dominant on the street!

Woohoo! Such a great sound!

What do you play?

 

[some.body]

There was a guy on a forum once who went by the handle Mixolocrian. I was never able to tell whether he was trying to be avant-garde, or just facetious.

Anyhoo, welcome aboard.

Haha, I see. Thank you, I'm happy to be here.

 

[Jennywocky]

Woohoo! Such a great sound!

What do you play?

Piano/keys is my primary, but I played clarinet and oboe and xylophone (the last for marching band) coming up through school. Been off-circuit for 5-6 years, for about ten I was running worship bands for my church congregation and writing/arrange music or adlibbing during services. My dad was a band director, so I had a lot of exposure to instruments growing up, as well as more western traditional forms (opera, classical), although I'm appreciative of many styles and like to mix.

I learn fast and could figure out any instrument, I'm sure. Trying to teach myself guitar because I can do different kinds of sounds with it (vs keyboard), but I'm just terrible at practicing... what I need is to just get dumped in a group and learn on the fly, play play play, until it becomes instinctive.

welcome to the forum.

 

[Jennywocky]

"is there a formula"?

Yeah, a lot of the mainstream stuff nowadays (especially when CCM worship and "alternate" music took off in the 90's, along with "drumtrack/sampling" tech) is pretty basic -- 1-4-5 patterns with permutations thereof. This was good in the sense that new musicians could just pick up and instrument and play, and I think there are some musicians nowadays who have become quite talented from such a start; however, in some ways it dumbs down the music and there's a lot of trash.

(then again, the mainstream music industry was kind of sad by the end of the 80's, which is why alternative came to be.)

A lot of hits do use 4/4 timesig, but I think a lot of modern pop with its visual element (live tour + vid channels and promotional mats) is also about image and show, as well as the creation of "hooks." Madonna and Jackson were both masters of this in the 80's (plus they were "mainstream" edgy, which kept them in the public sphere); in the last ten years, one reason Katy Perry has done so well is that she's REALLY good at writing "hooks" -- the musical line + lyric that sticks in your head and drags you into the song. I think she's pretty talented, although in a very different way than Mozart or Benjamin Britten, obviously.

The acoustic "alternative" sound, after festering a bit, now has people blending various styles together and there's some more creative stuff out there. One just has to look for it.

 

[some.body]

Piano/keys is my primary, but I played clarinet and oboe and xylophone (the last for marching band) coming up through school. Been off-circuit for 5-6 years, for about ten I was running worship bands for my church congregation and writing/arrange music or adlibbing during services. My dad was a band director, so I had a lot of exposure to instruments growing up, as well as more western traditional forms (opera, classical), although I'm appreciative of many styles and like to mix.

I learn fast and could figure out any instrument, I'm sure. Trying to teach myself guitar because I can do different kinds of sounds with it (vs keyboard), but I'm just terrible at practicing... what I need is to just get dumped in a group and learn on the fly, play play play, until it becomes instinctive.

welcome to the forum.

Sweet. I'm kinda jealous of you multi-instrumentalists. I find I need to keep focused on what I'm trying to do with the guitar instead of getting caught up in like listening to Elliott Smith or something cause then I wanna play guitar, sing, piano ect. and then I end up with little actual music that im happy with so, yeah, I gotta keep myself in check!
I'm just a guitarists, if you have any technique questions please ask.
My family isn't musical at all. I'm the only musician. I make most of my living from teaching.
And thanks its nice to be here.
Oh yeah, do you know any musicians type? I'd love for someone that knows more about that stuff to tell me what type they think Elliott Smith could have been.

 

[some.body]

Yeah, a lot of the mainstream stuff nowadays (especially when CCM worship and "alternate" music took off in the 90's, along with "drumtrack/sampling" tech) is pretty basic -- 1-4-5 patterns with permutations thereof. This was good in the sense that new musicians could just pick up and instrument and play, and I think there are some musicians nowadays who have become quite talented from such a start; however, in some ways it dumbs down the music and there's a lot of trash.

(then again, the mainstream music industry was kind of sad by the end of the 80's, which is why alternative came to be.)

A lot of hits do use 4/4 timesig, but I think a lot of modern pop with its visual element (live tour + vid channels and promotional mats) is also about image and show, as well as the creation of "hooks." Madonna and Jackson were both masters of this in the 80's (plus they were "mainstream" edgy, which kept them in the public sphere); in the last ten years, one reason Katy Perry has done so well is that she's REALLY good at writing "hooks" -- the musical line + lyric that sticks in your head and drags you into the song. I think she's pretty talented, although in a very different way than Mozart or Benjamin Britten, obviously.

The acoustic "alternative" sound, after festering a bit, now has people blending various styles together and there's some more creative stuff out there. One just has to look for it.

I agree with everything you said. The only thing I would add is that articulation/dynamics, the WAY you play the notes as opposed to the notes themselves is in some ways more important. In jazz we place a very big importance on which notes will sound consonant and dissonant on what harmony were blowing over, but can get away with playing out there kinda stuff just merely by the way the line is articulated...
If you hear it strong enough then you can make anything work.

All of this theory and the systems we use is leading us to chromaticism I believe.

 

[Jennywocky]

I agree with everything you said. The only thing I would add is that articulation/dynamics, the WAY you play the notes as opposed to the notes themselves is in some ways more important. In jazz we place a very big importance on which notes will sound consonant and dissonant on what harmony were blowing over, but can get away with playing out there kinda stuff just merely by the way the line is articulated...

yeah, definitely! I don't listen to actual jazz as much as I should, but I've been a big fan of fake books and jazz-style chord in my normal playing. (In the pop scene, I'm a fan of David Paich from Toto, which was basically a band made of studio musicians, the guy has a LOT of jazz influence in his piano style in pop/rock.) 7th, 13th, 9th, majored or minor as necessary, closed vs open chording [because it sounds different depending on what you use, and might or might not clash with the rest of the band].

You have to think big picture in a group setting and hear how what you're doing is fitting into the overall sound. Usually too each instrument is filling a particular part of the group sound, and you don't want to muddy things open (or leave too much air) by overlapping into someone else's area, either pitch/chordwise or even rhythmically (as the rhythms have to interlock too). Usually bass and drums have to lock things in, and then the keys.

If you hear it strong enough then you can make anything work.

Yes, in my book, there are not rules or boundaries -- it's whatever you can make work as you go. You just have to be locked into what you're doing and really listening.

 

[Architect]

Why has twelve tone been a failure?

 

[some.body]

Why has twelve tone been a failure?

First, I don't know if it was/is a "failure" you would have to define that a bit for me.
But I think I understand and would say it's just ears really.

Look at a few things:

The rite of spring caused riots. It was controversial in its time, and not just because of the music. Is it now? Have our ears/attitudes adjusted?

Draw a parallel with Ozzy or Iron Maiden. Those kids suicides, the satanic panic of the 80s.
Is it controversial now?

When "the shape of jazz to come" came out a lot of people even Miles Davis gave Ornette Coleman shit for that record. Up till then in jazz there was some harmony instrument, piano much more so then guitar. That record had neither. Lots didn't get it, then ours ears change and it's a source of inspiration, even Miles came around.

 

[some.body]

yeah, definitely! I don't listen to actual jazz as much as I should, but I've been a big fan of fake books and jazz-style chord in my normal playing. (In the pop scene, I'm a fan of David Paich from Toto, which was basically a band made of studio musicians, the guy has a LOT of jazz influence in his piano style in pop/rock.) 7th, 13th, 9th, majored or minor as necessary, closed vs open chording [because it sounds different depending on what you use, and might or might not clash with the rest of the band].

You have to think big picture in a group setting and hear how what you're doing is fitting into the overall sound. Usually too each instrument is filling a particular part of the group sound, and you don't want to muddy things open (or leave too much air) by overlapping into someone else's area, either pitch/chordwise or even rhythmically (as the rhythms have to interlock too). Usually bass and drums have to lock things in, and then the keys.



Yes, in my book, there are not rules or boundaries -- it's whatever you can make work as you go. You just have to be locked into what you're doing and really listening.

Totally.
Voicing chords in different ways, chord extensions, chord addition and substitution are all are very fun and huge part of jazz. I only in some ways would disagree with the "locking things in" only because in jazz its the syncopation and interplay that largely creates swing.
It should sound like you pushed a truck down a hill... Just this rolling unstoppable thing...
Oh yeah, if you do start getting serious into jazz, lots of teachers will tell you if there's a bassist then to always and only play rootless voicing, not even having the root voiced in soprano due to the fact it can muddy things up like you mentioned, and that's completely true but I've seen and know musicians that end up scared of playing voicings with the root. Don't be. Listen to red garland play, he did it all the time, as did bud powell, it wasn't till the likes of bill evans that this concept started to largely appear in jazz.

 

[Jennywocky]

I don't know if twelve tones' been a failure either. I think though, what little I've heard of twelve-tone in concert, it's more an appeal to the intellect than to the aesthetic. I could hear patterns but it was very difficult for me, and I'm generally good at that kind of thing; I'm not sure if the general audience will emotionally resonate with it.

However, while Don Davis' "matrix" soundtrack wasn't exactly twelve-tone, it did use constructed melodies and rhythms (rather than classical lines in its themes as old John Williams' stuff did in Star Wars, for example) to brand the movies and it left a cultural impression.

Totally.
Voicing chords in different ways, chord extensions, chord addition and substitution are all are very fun and huge part of jazz. I only in some ways would disagree with the "locking things in" only because in jazz its the syncopation and interplay that largely creates swing.
It should sound like you pushed a truck down a hill... Just this rolling unstoppable thing...
Oh yeah, if you do start getting serious into jazz, lots of teachers will tell you if there's a bassist then to always and only play rootless voicing, not even having the root voiced in soprano due to the fact it can muddy things up like you mentioned, and that's completely true but I've seen and know musicians that end up scared of playing voicings with the root. Don't be. Listen to red garland play, he did it all the time, as did bud powell, it wasn't till the likes of bill evans that this concept started to largely appear in jazz.

Cool, thanks for the advice. I did struggle a bit when I moved to a "band" setting where I had to coexist with the bass, I basically had to haul way back on lower voicing and focus more on mid-range rhythm chording. It took a little time to get used to.

I don't have an issue with experimenting, and I think the frequency differences where the root gets used can let it work. And even some pedal-tone kind of things in the high registers.

 

[some.body]

I don't know if twelve tones' been a failure either. I think though, what little I've heard of twelve-tone in concert, it's more an appeal to the intellect than to the aesthetic. I could hear patterns but it was very difficult for me, and I'm generally good at that kind of thing; I'm not sure if the general audience will emotionally resonate with it.

Yes, for sure, you just said what I was trying to much more succinctly. Thank you.

However, while Don Davis' "matrix" soundtrack wasn't exactly twelve-tone, it did use constructed melodies and rhythms (rather than classical lines in its themes as old John Williams' stuff did in Star Wars, for example) to brand the movies and it left a cultural impression.

Ears right? Minus of course the movie ect.

Cool, thanks for the advice. I did struggle a bit when I moved to a "band" setting where I had to coexist with the bass, I basically had to haul way back on lower voicing and focus more on mid-range rhythm chording. It took a little time to get used to.

I don't have an issue with experimenting, and I think the frequency differences where the root gets used can let it work. And even some pedal-tone kind of things in the high registers.

Yeah, I'm gonna mess around with some pedal tone stuff today, I haven't really tried using a pedal that's voiced high. I'll use a lot of oblique motion when voice leading but I don't really hear that as a pedal. I usually put that as the lowest voice and keep it going while I'm playing over top.

Here's something to try:

Play a jazz blues in Bb using all the basics like sticking a 1 4 3 6 2 5 1 in there, making the chords altered dominants but now put the whole thing over an F pedal and play like that for a few choruses then start walking the bass like you normally would.

It creates this unbelievable amount of tension because your constantly on the 5 chord as a pedal.

 

[Rocco]

This thread is fascinating, and I'm blown away that it's already so huge and thoughtful so soon after its inception.

I'm a music student who quit. I dropped out three semesters in, before really tightening my grasp on theory and composition... and now it's just a sloppy mess of half memories. Even key signatures and scales are murky; I'm ashamed of myself. As a hobbyist composer, it would be the best gift I could give myself to start fresh with my musical training.

Can you recommend any free or cheap utilities that effectively teach theory, aural training, and possibly basic piano all together? If I get back into this, it's gonna be from scratch.

 

[some.body]

This thread is fascinating, and I'm blown away that it's already so huge and thoughtful so soon after its inception.

I'm a music student who quit. I dropped out three semesters in, before really tightening my grasp on theory and composition... and now it's just a sloppy mess of half memories. Even key signatures and scales are murky; I'm ashamed of myself. As a hobbyist composer, it would be the best gift I could give myself to start fresh with my musical training.

Can you recommend any free or cheap utilities that effectively teach theory, aural training, and possibly basic piano all together? If I get back into this, it's gonna be from scratch.

I'm very happy that this thread seems to be taking off as well, and that people seem to be getting something out of it and participating too.

As I said before, I make most of my income from teaching and im always learning as I'm teaching and figured it would be cool to see what kind of questions fellow INTPs would ask. Very cool stuff so far.

So, to your question's:

I had a similar experience with music school, not finishing the last semester. I was getting depressed with the politics and just wanted to teach more, play shows, record ect.

Do you have any musician friends locally that you can pick their brain?

I don't know of any theory teaching software. There's some great books out there. Since you said you wanted to start from scratch I would recommend a book titled "Elementary rudiments of music theory" you should be able to find that at your local music/sheet music store. The books a bit dry but it will give you all the basics and you will be well equipped.

If you wanted, I could write out a few things for you to start working on? It's really not that difficult to understand how key sigs. are related to scales and how to derive chords from them ect. As an INTP (sorry if I'm in correct here) you would probably enjoy learning more that way.

As for ear training there are some great programs out there. I just did a Google search because I couldn't remember the name of the one I used and came across this one:

http://www.earmaster.com/

I've never used that but it looks like you can try it out for a week for free.

This is the one I've used before:

http://www.solfege.org/

If we're going to be honest though, the best thing you can do to train your ears is transcribe. Get the program "the amazing slow downer" you can start with just transcribing a few melodies. You don't even need to write them down since the goal right now is to get your ears going. Then we can talk about how all these things connect, though I suspect that's something you will have no trouble doing.

A great book that I can't recommend enough, and don't be put off by the title, this will teach you all the basic theory and then some and then some. It starts as if you know nothing about theory then guides you through a ton of it. I still use it as a reference.

"the jazz theory book" by Mark Levine. I'd actually recommend that one more then the other one I mentioned but "Elementary rudiments of music theory" is inexpensive and I'd pick it up too along with the "jazz theory book"

Hope that helps, and let me know if you want me to write something out for you to start working on. Maybe we could go over key sigs. or wherever you feel you wanted to start in a PM unless other people may find it helpful as well.

Cool.

 

[Architect]

First, I don't know if it was/is a "failure" you would have to define that a bit for me.

Failure to achieve significant interest outside of professional music circles (full disclosure, I was a professional classical musician)

But I think I understand and would say it's just ears really.

That's funny

The rite of spring caused riots. It was controversial in its time, and not just because of the music. Is it now? Have our ears/attitudes adjusted?

Interesting choice that, since the Rite probably marks the point in time I'm alluding to. OK take that piece, I happen to enjoy listening (and playing) it, but I'm not aware of anybody in the general public who even knows about it, or less would enjoy it. Certainly it's not played very often, I can count on one finger the number of times I've heard of SFO doing it.

Draw a parallel with Ozzy or Iron Maiden. Those kids suicides, the satanic panic of the 80s.
Is it controversial now?

You're going down the wrong trail, I didn't say controversial, I said successful. Iron Maiden made more than the classical collective combined. Even within those bounds 12tone is a failure.

When "the shape of jazz to come" came out a lot of people even Miles Davis gave Ornette Coleman shit for that record. Up till then in jazz there was some harmony instrument, piano much more so then guitar. That record had neither. Lots didn't get it, then ours ears change and it's a source of inspiration, even Miles came around.

You're proving the point, nobody listens to Wozzeck, do they?

The meat of this question gets to the core of this thread, I want to see if you find it.

 

[Architect]

I'll follow up with one more to test your mettle. Answer carefully.

What separates a great musician from a good musician? Specifically, don't talk in generalities.

 

[Jennywocky]

My idea about the failure of twelve-tone, as mentioned earlier in the thread, is simply that it appeals to a particular kind of mind -- a more detached and logical one. I think it can be appreciated via logic, but the music itself is not set up in a way that instigates, reinforces, and unleashes an emotional response in the audience. I can appreciate the idea of twelve-tone, but do I listen to twelve-tone music? No, not really. it's more of an exercise than an experience. [I think the only time I've heard a live twelve-tone performance was in Carnegie Hall, years ago.... ]

Most people seem to listen to music because they like how what they are listening to makes them FEEL. Music is an art form that is very holistic, it can involve a combination of mental, emotional, and literally physical responses.

 

[Architect]

My idea about the failure of twelve-tone, as mentioned earlier in the thread, is simply that it appeals to a particular kind of mind -- a more detached and logical one. I think it can be appreciated via logic, but the music itself is not set up in a way that instigates, reinforces, and unleashes an emotional response in the audience. I can appreciate the idea of twelve-tone, but do I listen to twelve-tone music? No, not really. it's more of an exercise than an experience.

Most people seem to listen to music because they like how what they are listening to makes them FEEL. Music is an art form that is very holistic, it can involve a combination of mental, emotional, and literally physical responses.

JW's hot on the trail ... so why exactly does it appeal to THIS side (intellectual) rather than THAT side (emotional, experiential, physical)? Note that 12 tone can have just as much expressive content as classical, or pop, jazz, etc.

 

[Jennywocky]

JW's hot on the trail ... so why exactly does it appeal to THIS side (intellectual) rather than THAT side (emotional, experiential, physical)? Note that 12 tone can have just as much expressive content as classical, or pop, jazz, etc.

Yes, it's more whether the composer is capable. An incapable twelve-toner composer would sound like a mess; a competent one will have the "dramatic form" of the music down regardless of the note values, and also know how to interweave them.

My first line of inquiry is whether the ear can be trained to appreciate certain progressions (is musical form and appreciation a matter of cultural training?) or are there certain types of melody/chording that most easily generate a response?

For example, consider the V7 chord, which naturally leads back to I. [Sorry for assuming the "naturally" there, I suppose that's part of the question!] If you end on a V7 and don't lead to the I, people get REALLY agitated. It's an actual response. Is this due to how our ears have been trained, or is there something innate about it?

 

[Architect]

My first line of inquiry is whether the ear can be trained to appreciate certain progressions (is musical form and appreciation a matter of cultural training?) or are there certain types of melody/chording that most easily generate a response?

For example, consider the V7 chord, which naturally leads back to I. [Sorry for assuming the "naturally" there, I suppose that's part of the question!] If you end on a V7 and don't lead to the I, people get REALLY agitated. It's an actual response. Is this due to how our ears have been trained, or is there something innate about it?

Excellent, follow this line of inquiry. Why does V7 so dearly want to go back to the tonic? Why does IV want to progress to V, eventually to I? So ultimately then why do we have a music theory (Western theory implied here) at all?

 

[some.body]

JW's hot on the trail ... so why exactly does it appeal to THIS side (intellectual) rather than THAT side (emotional, experiential, physical)? Note that 12 tone can have just as much expressive content as classical, or pop, jazz, etc.

Okay.
Lets pretend you don't know what 12 tone technique is for a minute and I think I can answer from that angle as to why it was a "failure outside of professional musician circles"
And appeals to the intellectual side.

So first, 12 tone technique was a system created by Schoenberg as a way to use all 12 notes equally before repeating any note, the idea behind this is to avoid a set key. Atonality. Because of this and also due to the overtone series you end up writing a piece using "tone rows" that, yes has just as much expression, dynamics as any other style. But the end result is a piece of music that most people in the general public would classify as, perhaps "weird" "out there" because your avoiding a tonal center completely. It's a theoretical SYSTEM and the resulting music is that of a kind most feel as has been described to me by non musicians as a "punch to the gut" besides dynamics ect. There's not much for someone who doesn't understand that music to "latch onto"

 

[some.body]

Excellent, follow this line of inquiry. Why does V7 so dearly want to go back to the tonic? Why does IV want to progress to V, eventually to I? So ultimately then why do we have a music theory (Western theory implied here) at all?

V7 does NOT always go back to I as you know.

As I said in my first post, I used functional harmony as an example but the same is true for any system, we are creating a language after the fact to communicate with other musicians. The term secondary dominant wasn't evencodified until the early 1940s by Walter piston. After that sound was used for centuries.

Edit: so I would add that music theory is not necessary to know to write or play music though it certainly helps to explain a lot of things and is something I just get a lot of pleasure contemplating from.
Edit: I'm going to mull over your great/good musician question since you requested I not speak in generalities about that.
Thanks for the thought provoking questions though. Good stuff.

 

[some.body]

So, Architect, that's probably the best I can answer your question. It seems Jennywocky has already answered your question better than I, which if you read up I thanked JW for. If neither of us "get it" I'd appreciate if you could elaborate for me.
Thanks!

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I'm not up to snuff on the terminology stuff, but what's going on at the ~10:50-11:15 mark that makes this so awesome when I'm already experiencing a dopamine flood?:

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVtJG1MN8LE

 

[some.body]

I'm not up to snuff on the terminology stuff, but what's going on at the ~10:50-11:15 mark that makes this so awesome when I'm already experiencing a dopamine flood?:

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVtJG1MN8LE

Hey, I'm not at my place right now and running a horrible Internet connection atm on a bb playbook, but I will for sure give it a listen to tomorrow and see what I can come up with but I kinda have a feeling the answer may be closer to the "dopamine flood" you mention then some theoretical construct.

 

[BigApplePi]

@Architect

probably marks the point in time I'm alluding to. OK take that piece, I happen to enjoy listening (and playing) it, but I'm not aware of anybody in the general public who even knows about it, or less would enjoy it.

I (INTP public) played my record decades ago and liked it.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjlXYQzO7w

Why? It's the drama. Now if only I would get going and transfer it to CD I could play it in the car.

Question: Since I'm musically ignorant, could it have been composed using the regular scale?

 

[Rocco]

I THINK I see what you're getting at, Archie.

Succinctly: 12-tone defines rules that determine how music sounds. Western Theory defines rules that describe and categorize how music sounds.

Theory isn't JUST a compositional tool; It's primarily a taxonomic system that explains why certain forms already sound good to us. Blame evolution (and probably culture, to some extent) for building a ready framework in our brain where Functional Harmony can thrive.

But now that I've typed that out, it sounds overly-simplistic and obvious... Oh well.

 

[some.body]

@Architect
I (INTP public) played my record decades ago and liked it.

Spoiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjlXYQzO7w

Why? It's the drama. Now if only I would get going and transfer it to CD I could play it in the car.

Question: Since I'm musically ignorant, could it have been composed using the regular scale?

Hey, for your consideration I submit to you this link which gives a pretty good analysis of The Rite of Spring... And for anyone else's benefit here:

http://igorsrite.blogspot.ca/2009/06/analysis-of-rite-of-spring.html

Let it be well known that I am a "jazz musician" so that is my area of expertise, though of course I love many different styles/forms of Music.

Since Architect plays this it would be cool if A would chime in about it.

 

[BigApplePi]

Hey, for your consideration I submit to you this link which gives a pretty good analysis of The Rite of Spring

I read that link. Thank you. Of course I didn't understand the terms but I guess what Stravinsky did was to try out a new vocabulary. That vocabulary was able to provide a flexibility and provide new things not accomplished before.

So question. Like mathematics which is a language for order, quantity and precision, is music a language for the emotions*? By "emotions" I mean does it always always present some sort of drama? It tells a story, and as stories go, there are many different kinds. Therefore there are many different reactions ... as many as reactions to tastes in stories.

Let it be well known that I am a "jazz musician" so that is my area of expertise, though of course I love many different styles/forms of Music.

I recognize there are multiple kinds of jazz. I wonder if there is some common story thread for jazz though. Like a story line, an improvisation on that line (which offers a chance to play around) and a return to the home story just to emphasize you were never lost ... or is that too narrow an interpretation?
_______________________

*And possibly when accompanied by dance, for the body as well?

 

[some.body]

I read that link. Thank you. Of course I didn't understand the terms but I guess what Stravinsky did was to try out a new vocabulary. That vocabulary was able to provide a flexibility and provide new things not accomplished before.

So question. Like mathematics which is a language for order, quantity and precision, is music a language for the emotions*? By "emotions" I mean does it always always present some sort of drama? It tells a story, and as stories go, there are many different kinds. Therefore there are many different reactions ... as many as reactions to tastes in stories.


I recognize there are multiple kinds of jazz. I wonder if there is some common story thread for jazz though. Like a story line, an improvisation on that line (which offers a chance to play around) and a return to the home story just to emphasize you were never lost ... or is that too narrow an interpretation?
_______________________

*And possibly when accompanied by dance, for the body as well?

"language of emotions" that's a nice way to put it... I have yet to hear a piece of music that *doesn't* elicit some kind emotion.

There is for sure a "common story thread" through jazz. Namely, blues inflections. Any competent jazz musician has a mastery of this language.

It is of course possible to avoid this (kind of blue, was a record made with just this intention in mind, after years of Miles playing with Charlie Parker) but you could consider bebop to be the common practice period of jazz. That's another language with great importance. One way jazz musicians judge another's ability is by how well they can play on certain bebop tunes.

Edit: I'm not too sure about dance. Personal I don't, I'm more a foot tapper hah.
I just wanted to add that, when a jazz musician uses the term "head" what they are talking about is a melody written on an existing set of changes (chord progression)
There are many songs written this way. One reason for this is that when you went to jam or "sit in" on a session you may not know the same tunes but you could call out a head and right away you have a common vehicle.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Hey, I'm not at my place right now and running a horrible Internet connection atm on a bb playbook, but I will for sure give it a listen to tomorrow and see what I can come up with but I kinda have a feeling the answer may be closer to the "dopamine flood" you mention then some theoretical construct.

Sort of. I'm trying to get at the interplay between theoretical structure and emotion, specifically that because a given structure is perceived subjectively, emotion/perception appears to add to that structure (perhaps through reflection or mimicry), making it more or less complex. This makes music an interaction as opposed to a series of notes on paper with some sound accompaniment.

One would expect such an interaction to vary wildly by individual, however there is an apparent shared effect courtesy of synchronicity. Different individuals share the same emotional experience to a given degree of overlap, as evidenced by their congregation at concerts, raves, etc.

Given the most basic differences in the emotions generally elicited by major vs minor keys, might music actually serve as the bridge between emotion and the physics of sound (thus demonstrating in a roundabout way that emotions aren't immune to the laws of physics)?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-gf_bxV00s

It's primarily a taxonomic system that explains why certain forms already sound good to us. Blame evolution (and probably culture, to some extent) for building a ready framework in our brain where Functional Harmony can thrive.

 

[some.body]

One would expect such an interaction to vary wildly by individual, however there is an apparent shared effect courtesy of synchronicity. Different individuals share the same emotional experience to a given degree of overlap, as evidenced by their congregation at concerts, raves, etc.

Yeah, using that example I would tend to agree, however this flys in the face of some of what I have experienced as a teacher.

Given the most basic differences in the emotions generally elicited by major vs minor keys, might music actually serve as the bridge between emotion and the physics of sound (thus demonstrating in a roundabout way that emotions aren't immune to the laws of physics)?

I'd agree with that too, leaving out the "immune to physics" part because I know shit all about physics, music theory has been and almost always is a reflection of sound after the fact of said sound. In general it is just a way to communicate and compartmentalize things. Do you know how many different terms there are for a "secondary dominant"?there are quite a few and it wasn't till the early 40's that a kinda consensus was reached.

You would think if you took someone with no or little musical training and played them, even a basic minor triad and then asked "is this an upbeat happy sound?" that they would say no, or something like "well I actually feel it more like..." but, in my experience, you will come across people that cannot distinguish between a major or minor triad. Now play them octaves and ask "is this the same note?" and see what they say.

Some of this has to due with the overtone series, and then this raises even more questions. How long could you listen to *only* b9 intervals? Do you think you could go a day? Sure, by forcing yourself but your day will probably contain some shouting/outbursts.

Record a Ebmaj9 chord. Listen all day. Now record a b9 interval. Listen all day.
What happened on b9 day?

 

[some.body]

Here is a transcription that I just banged out in a few minutes. Figured I should post it here instead of starting a new thread. It's pretty interesting harmonically, using what is commonly refereed to as the "expanded diatonic framework" all that means, in case anyone has not heard of that term before is, a very simple explanation, everything is in every key or tonal center.

This is, by far one of Emil Amos' most "pop" type tunes, but, as I said it is pretty interesting harmonically, and just a great tune.

Note: I wrote maj7 or -7 for most chords but of course you can add different extensions. I'm sure anyone looking at this knows and understands how to add extensions to chords.
You could even get a lydian sound in parts of this too.

Anyway, enjoy the genius that is Emil Amos.

"A Chapter Must be Closed"

======Abmaj7=======================Gbmaj7
see your old clothes on some junkies back, watch your furniture get up, and disappear

===Abmaj7
have pity on those, who gotta suffer from their own hand

==Gbmaj7
and watch what they have get up and disappear

=Dbma7===============C-7
a chapter must be closed, a chapter must be closed,

======Bmaj7==================Bb-7
it cant go on and on and on and on and on

===Dbmaj7=========C-7
you gotta shut it down, to start it up again,

======Bmaj7==================Bb-7
it cant go on and on and on and on and on



Dbmaj7=========Bmaj7


========Dbmaj7
Im not gunna rise up like a phoenix from the fire, and fly away

==Bmaj7
or hold hands with the whole wide world on an endless sunny day

======Dbmaj7
why cant people accept it may just be the way, the way it always was

==============Bma7===== Bb-7
their so wraped up in fantasy

====F#maj7=======A#-7==F#maj7======A#-7
ohh, a chapter must be closed, a chapter must be closed

======Emaj7===============D#-7
it cant go on and on and on and on and on

===F#maj7===A#-7===F#maj7==A#-7
you gotta shut it down, to start it up again

=======Emaj7==============D#-7 (Bmaj13)
it cant go on and on and on and on and on

I had to use = to space this chords. Here is a link to the song and a pretty cool video that Emil made. Enjoy!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LieimziMPfU

 

[some.body]

Aaaand here's another one:

"No Claws"

C#- ======= A ====== C#- ====== A
rush off to work again, pushin off that mean last stair

C#- =====A
gotta lot of streets to pound my heads turned down
legs know the path and i wear a frown

C#- ====A =========== C#- ====A
if there is too much stress, the liver cleans up the mess

==C#- ===== A
its just another dusty mop when your weapons drop
if you tip back too much and your night watch stops

G#-
im vulnerable to the thieves and all the other scum on the street

===================A- ========F
dont you know there aint no claws im searching for

=======A- ==========F
there aint no laws im searching for

=======A- ==========F
there aint no spells im searching for

====A- ================================== G
there aint no clause that im under to harness my mind


=========A- =========================G
too much comfort dulls the mind, shovels soil i hoped to find

=========A- =========================G
feelings cold on mind controlled, wasted life on the blind

=========A- =========================G
cover dust over my name, ill never pass this way again

=======F
change my walk lose their trail history written never mailed


A- ==================== F

F
too much comfort dulls the mind........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgE_1P-sWkY

 

[some.body]

-7b5 possibilities.

Anytime you encounter this sound you can (if you're so inclined) use these chords instead to directly replace the -7b5 or (depending on the tempo) use any or all or these with it.

- maj7#11 half step below root of -7b5
- alt dominant whole step up
- dominant maj3rd below
- maj7#11 tritone above/below
- -6 min3rd above (an inversion)
- keep root same but change quality to any type of dominant (mostly on a ii V. For instance, you probably wouldn't wanna do this to a tune like 'stella by starlight')

 

[travelnjones]

Ok what is a mode? I know there are different types what what makes something a mode or not.

 

[some.body]

@travelnjones
So, if you already know there are different types than what you should do now (I'm assuming you play an instrument) is get the sound in your ear. Anyone can analyze and understand what the difference is between ionian and mixolydian, however it's something else to bring out the color of the mode.

Here's a simple example:

Take lydian. What's the difference between that and ionian? The #11 correct? Well than that is lydian's characteristic note. That's the note that you want to stress in order for it to sound like lydian. You know you're on the right path when you can let a C pedal ring out while playing over it (the f# makes it lydian if in this case) and hear the dreamy kinda sound that's usually associated with lydian.

If that's too basic for you let me know and we'll talk about melodic minor modes and how there is no "handle with care" note in that scale. Everything (harmony, lines ect.) in melodic minor is interchangeable because of this.

Then you have scales that don't have 12 keys, like whole tone.

Side note: for a serious study of modes listen to sitar music. In India they call these things raags. There is a order that the notes go in, a certain rhythm, notes that are more important than others, and most interesting to me , the times of day and night that you are supposed to play these raags. For example, Durga Raag is supposed to be played after the sun has set.

 

[Steven Gerrard]

If one plays a 440 A are the frequencies vibrating only 440 or like 400-480?

How do frequencies work basically?

Could one play frequencies 0-1000 from one source?

 

[Meer]

How do frequencies work basically?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)

'Frequencies' are not actual things. Sound is made of partials (i.e., sine waves) of various frequency, phase and amplitude. These partials can be harmonically related to one another, or not. When they are, they are usually called harmonics.

Generally, an instrument will produce partials whose frequencies are integer multiples of the fundamental. For A 440, the first four harmonics are 440, 880, 1320, 1760, and so on. The fundamental itself is the first harmonic.

If you search for 'harmonic series' on youtube, you could probably find an audio example, with pictures of the waveform of each harmonic.

As for your second question, you could have a sound made up of random partials that have an equal distribution (power) between 0 and 1000 Hz.

 

[Steven Gerrard]

Wikipedia does not have an article with this exact name.

So a sounds 'power' is actually how high or low we perceive something?

Thanks for the post. I'm gunna have to come back to it if I hope to understand.

Do you know any good books that could engage me theoritically without trying to teach me to read music?

Easier to read pure theory if ya know what I mean.

 

[Meer]

Oops. I fixed my link.

So a sounds 'power' is actually how high or low we perceive something?

No, by power I mean energy over time. Here's another link, sorry. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_noise

As for music theory resources, I'm not sure.

 

[Steven Gerrard]

How did you learn?

 

[QuickTwist]

I like to think of music as a pattern of trends that go up and down.

Is it typically accepted that having more of either quantity or significance of downward trend make for better music aesthetically to the ears mind.

 

[Helvete]

Why is minor associated with feeling sad and major happy?

 

[Coolydudey]

Why is minor associated with feeling sad and major happy?

This is very interesting in that I don't think it's just an association, I think it's to some extent inherent. If I play a bunch of minor chords ,messing about basically, they will start to sound pretty normal but never happy. If I play a bunch of major chords, they will also start to sound pretty normal but never sad. I don't think it's practically possible to know for certain whether it's just an association but I would definitely say there is something inherent in the way the mind processes the chords (the frequencies if you wish) and interprets them.