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Adventuring

Cognisant

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I think RPG games as we know them lack meaning, largely lack adventure, and lack actual role-playing too, which are all problems that are deeply intertwined.

A lack of meaning can best be understood by stopping at any point during your next play session and asking yourself, why am I doing this, not just as in what are you getting out of it, I mean why do you want whatever it is you get out of it, fundamentally why are you playing this game? Story is a big part of it, we play to advance the plot, as is combat, we play for the visceral satisfaction of it, but there can be more meaning to it to wanting to advance the story just to see where it goes or engaging in combat for it's own sake. I find games are at their best when they have several layers of meaning, for example killing Lautrec in Dark Souls isn't an especially difficult or novel fight, but it's an act of revenge, I took out his companions first then savoured my fight with him, I enjoyed making him suffer.

Ideally every fight, indeed every action the player makes would be so meaningful and the key to making it meaningful is that something's at stake, the entirety of Dark Souls revolves around having one's EXP represented as a value of "souls" at stake, and without the aid of a bonfire one has a limited amount of health, and with death meaning the potential loss of accumulated souls the loss of virtually any health becomes meaningful in a greater context than the current engagement. So my personal vendetta against Lautrec was just yet more meaning to an already meaningful fight, but meaning isn't just relevant to fighting and to explain that I have to start with what adventuring really is.

As said in the comic above "adventurers gotta eat" which is something suspiciously absent from almost every adventure game, novel and movie, which is especially strange in the context of games, I mean as an adventurer in Skyrim what's your motivation to go adventuring, what's your character's motivation? A house in Skyrim isn't a home, at most it's a trophy cabinet and storage space, your character has no family, a servant and a spouse perhaps but what are they if not simply yet more objects to be collected?

I think an adventurer needs a home life to give meaning to their travels, to create both a juxtaposition and to explain why an adventurer goes adventuring in the first place, of course it would be impossible to script a sedate married life (then again if neither are the talky type...) but if you're just popping in every now and then maybe s/he'll react to how long you've been gone, ask you what you've been up to (to which you'll have several standard replies, plus quest specific ones), comment on any new gear you may have (particularly expensive/unique items), etc, you get the idea.

There could even be periodic scripted events like a dinner party, your spouse proposes it, asks you for money and/or to go get stuff, tells you when it's going to be (like tomorrow night or something), while s/he's preparing tells you to go out so you're out of the way, then when you get back people from around town or VIPs from abroad (depending upon how famous you are) are there chatting, eating, drinking, etc. This opens up the opportunity for new quests, interesting dialogue, potential conflict (if the wrong people show up) as well as introducing you to characters you might not have met or normally can't access, plus the ego boost of people admiring your trophies & home. Or if you're late to the party, don't show up entirely, mess up the preparations, etc, you get berated by your wife/husband, assuming that is they weren't taken hostage by a daedric prince during the party, then you'll get berated after saving them.

Furthermore there's the costs of food, upkeep, keeping your spouse happy, etc, these drains on a player's resources make getting those resources more meaningful, those riches you hear of in a tavern aren't simply riches anymore, they're funds to keep your home prosperous, your spouse happy, your servants fed and the town guard paid off to pay special attention to ensuring your home is kept safe, and any number of other things, which of course makes everything you do to get those riches more meaningful.

Finally actual role-playing, a frustration I had with Skyrim was that it neither allowed me to fully express my character and there was always the designer's intended character hanging over me, the Nordic brute my character was supposed to be. Role playing is all about expression and feedback, the Fable series did this with a morality system and one of my favourite parts of Fallout 3 was going to the main slaver camp just after blowing up Megaton and having the usually difficult door man meekly apologise when he realised how evil I was.

Clearly role-playing adds meaning to one's actions, so the more nuanced the means for self expression and recognition the better, ideally almost everything the player does would affect their self expression in some way (if I let a bandit escape maybe I should get good karma? or at least lose some for gunning them down as they run away) also ideally the game would recognise a wide range of character types, I might be a ruthless prick with a good guy veneer or I might act/dress like a gritty badass but my actions give me away as a secretly decent guy, heck I could be completely random or utterly sociopathic with everyone but a select few, if a game could recognise and respond to these characters it would make role-playing in that game a deep & engaging experience.
 

Hayyel

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Holy crap, it would be awesome! I loved the first Fable game- what came after that was a joke- mostly because of the random stuff you could do in it. Get drunk, get a wife, buy a house, rent it out etc. It only added to the gameplay because it wasn't neccesary to do any of that, so for those who just want to get to the action could do it. The whole morality thing isn't that rare, tho they seem to be there just because they could add it, most stories end the same way no matter what you choose. I guess we need a game that's smewhere between Fable and dragon age origins?
 

TheScornedReflex

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I agree. Not trying to rip on Skyrim because its a good game, but you have to conform to a pre designated role. This did my head in! Especially after murdering everyone in Whiterun (except those bloody NPCs that don't die), and ripping off every home*, I (un)happily payed off my bounty, of about 32,120, and continued on to High Hrothgar to met the priests. It would be awesome if they told me to 'Fuck off evil one', but no.

*I made sure to stash the goods in my house.

Brag time (level 53 without even giving the Dragon tablet to the mage).

There are a few mods that add immersion to the game that have helped but when it comes to the main plot, you are fucked. No more role playing.

Dragon age was a good one in the sense that you could decide the outcome in any given situation to a degree.

Fallout 3 was great in that you could do anything and be anyone you wanted. And New Vegas.
 

SpaceYeti

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I can't claim I entirely agree with your idea. Frankly, I wouldn't point to Skyrim when discussing RPGs unless I'm discussing what not to do. I love the game, it's fun, but I didn't really care about what happened after my first character. After that it was just system mastery, which quickly grew boring because you can break this game super-easy. Seriously, You can make potions that the shop-keepers can't even afford and nobody would even want in the first place. "Oohh, potion of Stamina that deals 50 damage when I drink it! Oh, but I only have 3000 GP, and it costs 4,586. Sorry, pal." Or how about making Spellcasting gear that entirely eliminates the mana cost of your spells? Yeah, it's fun to play, but not for the role-playing or challenge. It's more like a poorly written choose your own adventure. And it was fun, but not quite up to RPG standards.

Look at Torment. Now that was an awesome RPG.

Still, though, the best RPGs are pen and paper simply because they're not held back by requiring a predetermined script with you making one of several choices. If the King asks you to do something in pen and papers, you can do it, you can not do it, you can spit in his face, you can do whatever you want. And maybe a lot of your options are super-unwise, but they exist as options! Your character can actually grow as a (fictional) person, your only real limits being the imaginations of the players involved.

I see how your ideas could make a video game more appealing, but I'm sure many people would just plain get sick of having to maintain their homes with tedious upkeep and a nagging wife. People don't play games because games are realistic, contrary to popular belief. They play them because they're fun.
 

Hadoblado

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Everything SpaceYeti said.

Skyrim brag: I was doing 120xdamage with a sneak attack before I quit. It's not fun once the fights are over before they start.
 

Hayyel

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I can't claim I entirely agree with your idea. Frankly, I wouldn't point to Skyrim when discussing RPGs unless I'm discussing what not to do. I love the game, it's fun, but I didn't really care about what happened after my first character. After that it was just system mastery, which quickly grew boring because you can break this game super-easy. Seriously, You can make potions that the shop-keepers can't even afford and nobody would even want in the first place. "Oohh, potion of Stamina that deals 50 damage when I drink it! Oh, but I only have 3000 GP, and it costs 4,586. Sorry, pal." Or how about making Spellcasting gear that entirely eliminates the mana cost of your spells? Yeah, it's fun to play, but not for the role-playing or challenge. It's more like a poorly written choose your own adventure. And it was fun, but not quite up to RPG standards.

Look at Torment. Now that was an awesome RPG.

Still, though, the best RPGs are pen and paper simply because they're not held back by requiring a predetermined script with you making one of several choices. If the King asks you to do something in pen and papers, you can do it, you can not do it, you can spit in his face, you can do whatever you want. And maybe a lot of your options are super-unwise, but they exist as options! Your character can actually grow as a (fictional) person, your only real limits being the imaginations of the players involved.

I see how your ideas could make a video game more appealing, but I'm sure many people would just plain get sick of having to maintain their homes with tedious upkeep and a nagging wife. People don't play games because games are realistic, contrary to popular belief. They play them because they're fun.

That's what I first thought too, but they could make it all optional. You wouldn't have to do it, you could be a hermit or whatever, and the story would go along according to what you choose to do. Also, I never even started playing Skyrim, mainly because I hated Oblivion. It was too boring, probably because I had to walk so freaking much and sometimes I even got lost. Ah hell, I'm probably just bad at open world games.

I think I would be awful with table top rpg too :))
 

Hadoblado

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It would appeal to a massive demographic if someone made a skyrim/sims crossover.
 

Cognisant

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Everything SpaceYeti said.

Skyrim brag: I was doing 120xdamage with a sneak attack before I quit. It's not fun once the fights are over before they start.
Pfft that's nothing.

Master alchemy, master enchantment, use the fortify exploit to make otherwise impossibly good fortify alchemy set, make poisons with multiple damage affects, especially lingering damage and slow, plus the damage done by an ebony bow & arrows, plus the x3 sneak attack multiplier, all up you can regularly dish out more than 1000 in a single shot.

Plus the fortify archery enchantments and multiple enchantments on the bow :D

Edit: I used grinding exploits, there's no way of mastering enchanting without doing so.
 

SpaceYeti

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Pfft that's nothing.

Master alchemy, master enchantment, use the fortify exploit to make otherwise impossibly good fortify alchemy set, make poisons with multiple damage affects, especially lingering damage and slow, plus the damage done by an ebony bow & arrows, plus the x3 sneak attack multiplier, all up you can regularly dish out more than 1000 in a single shot.

Plus the fortify archery enchantments and multiple enchantments on the bow :D

Edit: I used grinding exploits, there's no way of mastering enchanting without doing so.
Um... Like using a sword with the steal soul enchant to keep your gems souled up so that you can enchant the garbage you normally sell or toss out anyhow? I'm not so sure that's an exploit, it kinda seems like the design on purpose, and that's how I did it. Easily. How did you do it if not that way and such that it counts as an exploit?
 

Cognisant

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Enchantments with more valuable items and larger souls get more experience and after mastering alchemy you have a virtually limitless amount of money, then by buying lots of crap from the general trader that other traders could buy I was able to acquire weapons, jewellery and souls without ever leaving the towns, thus allowing me to level up enchanting at a phenomenal rate, compared to what could be achieved by gathering petty souls and daggers myself.

Of course I had to suffer through many loading screens but with mercantile enchantments and the practice of using goods as currency I could afford to be constantly buying expensive weapons, greater/grand souls, and make yet more profit from that, which meant I could use the trainers as well.
 

SpaceYeti

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It's easy to get grand souls, just kill humanoid. Money's no prob with alchemy, agreed, then just buy/steal up the grand soul gems you come across, kill humanoids, and you'll have all the grand souls you want, without going on merchant runs.
 

TheScornedReflex

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Mixed with a maxed out Speechcraft and the cash just flows in.. (Used the creation kit to amp up the cash certain merchants have). Though straight thug'in it works too. As long as you don't get caught.
 

Cognisant

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But you need black soul gems, I only know one trader who sells those, and Azura's Star can only hold one soul at a time and there aren't many places with enchanting altars handy so you have to keep going back and forth, whereas a Jarl's wizard or the general goods store may have several.

Merchant runs are dull, but it works.

Edit: Or yes if you're playing on PC I assume you can still use console commands to rewrite reality as you see fit, for an Elder Scrolls game that's pretty standard.

Edit: Oh wow they've updated it, so many new functions, why back in my day...
 

TheScornedReflex

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You can but it takes all the fun out of it. Having everything there without having to work for it is very unsatisfying.
 

Cognisant

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Says the modder who isn't running any survivalist mods :rolleyes:
 

TheScornedReflex

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I have a hunger one I made where you have to eat/drink within twelve 12 hours. I am just working out a few minor problems with it. I am not that great at scripting yet.

Effects include slower stamina and health regeneration times. Increases over a 3 day period until death. There are better ones on Nexus. And have been looking at the Hypothermia mod. I am not sure if I like it though. Meh, Ill download it know and see.

So in your face!! I have one!! :D.
 

SpaceYeti

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But you need black soul gems, I only know one trader who sells those, and Azura's Star can only hold one soul at a time and there aren't many places with enchanting altars handy so you have to keep going back and forth, whereas a Jarl's wizard or the general goods store may have several.

Merchant runs are dull, but it works.

Edit: Or yes if you're playing on PC I assume you can still use console commands to rewrite reality as you see fit, for an Elder Scrolls game that's pretty standard.

Edit: Oh wow they've updated it, so many new functions, why back in my day...
Black soul gems are all over. Also, you only need them for good enchants. Grand works just as well for enchant leveling.

Also, I only use console commands for the shiggles of it. With the exploding chicken mod and 100 chickens, Solace gets effed in the A. Pop a few giants in there just to watch them fling all into the sky. It's hilarious.
 

Hadoblado

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Pfft that's nothing.

Master alchemy, master enchantment, use the fortify exploit to make otherwise impossibly good fortify alchemy set, make poisons with multiple damage affects, especially lingering damage and slow, plus the damage done by an ebony bow & arrows, plus the x3 sneak attack multiplier, all up you can regularly dish out more than 1000 in a single shot.

Plus the fortify archery enchantments and multiple enchantments on the bow :D

Edit: I used grinding exploits, there's no way of mastering enchanting without doing so.

That's 120 multiplier, not damage.
A dragonbone dagger (base damage: 12) would be dealing 1440 damage. This doesn't take into account double damage from maxed one-handed armsman, any skill bonuses from one handed itself (total multiplier 0.5),anything that increases your power attack modifier past x2 (I can't remember if you could get it higher with perks), any enchantment, any smithing upgrades, any potion tricks, any exploits, or any dual wielding shenanigans. I didn't bother optimising damage because I was already killing everything one shot, even bosses were plain sailing.
 

TheScornedReflex

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Speaking of adventuring and Skyrim. I just downloaded the Skyhighrim mod. It is awesome.. For now. My character is running round tripping on acid. Can't see shit through the visual effects but it is amusing. Now for some shrooms and Psilocybin to get the good times a-rolling
 
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