What if God exists?

[LOGICZOMBIE]

No, He even knew that Adam would sin, but created the world anyway, for the reasons I've mentioned.

does omniscient omnipotent creator know how to make an adam that does not sin ?

 

[fluffy]

Our freewill does allow us to go against God's will.

can we violate omniscience ?

If evolution happens, God created the best place for it to happen in.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

So no interaction, no monism?

please define your terms

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

If evolution happens, God created the best place for it to happen in.

omniscient omnipotent creator knows all, sees all, and intentionally causes all

 

[fluffy]

So no interaction, no monism?

please define your terms

You know them, conscious and not conscious cannot interact otherwise God would be matter and have no consciousness and neither would we.

 

[fluffy]

If evolution happens, God created the best place for it to happen in.

omniscient omnipotent creator knows all, sees all, and intentionally causes all

God cause agents to have freewill.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

conscious and not conscious cannot interact

i thought we were talking about spirit versus matter

 

[fluffy]

conscious and not conscious cannot interact

i thought we were talking about spirit versus matter

You said all must be something of God so God is all awareness and so all things must have an aspect of awareness or not exist q.e.d. monism.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

You said all must be something of God so God is all awareness and so all things must have an aspect of awareness or not exist q.e.d. monism.

in the same way your atoms don't know everything your mind knows

not every piece of omniscient omnipotent creator

knows everything omniscient omnipotent creator knows

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

God cause agents to have freewill.

this violates omnipotence and omniscience

 

[fluffy]

You said all must be something of God so God is all awareness and so all things must have an aspect of awareness or not exist q.e.d. monism.

in the same way your atoms don't know everything your mind knows

not every piece of omniscient omnipotent creator

knows everything omniscient omnipotent creator knows

Sure but if all is non conscious material then nothing can have awareness, not you and not God. That is why Spinoza is a dualist for he says all is God but the humans have awareness.

 

[fluffy]

God cause agents to have freewill.

this violates omnipotence and omniscience

Why?

God can create any environment he wishes for evolution to happen. Some environments are better than others for it.

 

[fluffy]

Motion cannot be eliminated from the system, things will forever move, forever evolve in this finite reality. So God chooses the best starting points and allowing it to happen as it does with us inside it making choices and having minds to decide.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Sure but if all is non conscious material

are you suggesting "spirit" = "conscious material" ?

to be clear

"consciousness" is just a very clumsy and confusing word

for "data processing"

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

God can create any environment he wishes for evolution to happen. Some environments are better than others for it.

omniscient + omnipotent = zero margin of error

it is impossible to "leave anything to chance"

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Spinoza is a dualist

https://presearch.com/search?q=Spinoza%20is%20a%20dualist

 

[fluffy]

God can create any environment he wishes for evolution to happen. Some environments are better than others for it.

omniscient + omnipotent = zero margin of error

it is impossible to "leave anything to chance"

You are suggesting a reality can exist where evolution happens but perfectly formed forever? Then you would not exist as you are and it would be very boring.

 

[fluffy]

Spinoza is a dualist

https://presearch.com/search?q=Spinoza%20is%20a%20dualist

Did Spinoza believe all that exist is mind or that all that exist is matter?

 

[fluffy]

Sure but if all is non conscious material

are you suggesting "spirit" = "conscious material" ?

to be clear

"consciousness" is just a very clumsy and confusing word

for "data processing"

Can you taste butter?

Do you understand you exist as tasting butter? It can be different for each person.

 

[fluffy]

To integrate, whatever can have experience depends on the monism of God.

 

[The Grey Man]

No, He even knew that Adam would sin, but created the world anyway, for the reasons I've mentioned.

does omniscient omnipotent creator know how to make an adam that does not sin ?

He could have made an automaton with no free will and called it 'Adam,' but this would have defeated the purpose of creation, as I've already explained. Would His creation be better if Adam had never sinned? By no means, for "The first man Adam was made into a living soul; the last Adam into a quickening spirit" (1 Corinthians 15:45). The last Adam has Himself said: "I am come that they may have life, and may have it more abundantly" (John 10:10). The "new creature" in Christ Jesus (Galatians 6:15; cf. 2 Corinthians 5:17) is as superior to the old as the Virgin Mary's active 'Fiat' to the Annunciation (cf. Luke 1:38) is to the primordial waters' unconscious passion under the 'Fiat' of God (cf. Genesis 1:3), but this new creation would not have been possible without the conscious Passion of the Son of God under Pontius Pilate, "For we are buried together with him by baptism into death; that as Christ is risen from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also may walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4). This new life is a grace which God bestows in view of the infinite condign merit of the Sacrifice of His only-begotten Son, which we (as the theologians say) may congruently merit inasmuch as we "put on Christ" (Galatians 3:27) and follow Him by taking up our crosses (cf. Matthew 16:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23), thereby filling "up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ" and constituting "his body, which is the church" (Colossians 1:24). "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Romans 6:5); but unless we share in the atoning Sacrifice of the Son, we will by no means share in His Resurrection and Glorification at the right hand of the Father—and without Adam's sin, there would have been no need for such a Sacrifice, so that the Passion of our Lord would have been meaningless and unworthy of God's Justice, and would therefore never have happened. This is why the Latin Church, in her Good Friday liturgy, calls the sin of Adam 'felix culpa'—'happy fault'—for it was this alone which made possible the admirabile commercium in which God becomes human in order that men may participate by grace in the divine Nature, and in which this Nature is simultaneously revealed as the self-subsistent and self-emptying, transcendent and immanent Love of the Father Who gives His Son up for the world and the Son Who gives Himself up for His Father (cf. John 3:16, Philippians 2:7), to be adored and glorified forever.

"This is part of the infinite goodness of God, that He should allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good."

 

[scorpiomover]

When it comes to your grades, your teacher is omniscient.

if my teacher was omniscient and created me


View attachment 8342

If your teacher has universal/complete knowledge, and infinite awareness, understanding and insight, then he has infallible knowledge if it's a good idea to fail you or not. So he can't be wrong.

You don't. So you can be wrong.

So the only logical explanation is that he is right and you are wrong.

 

[fluffy]

When it comes to your grades, your teacher is omniscient.

if my teacher was omniscient and created me


View attachment 8342

If your teacher has universal/complete knowledge, and infinite awareness, understanding and insight, then he has infallible knowledge if it's a good idea to fail you or not. So he can't be wrong.

You don't. So you can be wrong.

So the only logical explanation is that he is right and you are wrong.

To create things just to fail all of them would be wrong. A bigger purpose is to try and make sure as many pass as possible. The point of an evolving system is to learn, so make a system to learn as much as possible.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Did Spinoza believe all that exist is mind or that all that exist is matter?

Spinoza believed that everything that exists is a part of a single substance, which he called "God or Nature," encompassing both mind and matter.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

You are suggesting a reality can exist where evolution happens but perfectly formed forever?

are you suggesting that omnipotent omniscient creator can't know exactly what will happen everywhere at every moment from the dawn of time until the heat death of the cosmos ?

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

He could have made an automaton with no free will and called it 'Adam,' but

sure, but it seems like omniscient omnipotent creator could have made an adam that still had free-will and chose not to sin

i mean

there's really no time limit

there could be hundreds of trillions of possible adams

it seems like at least one of them might choose not to sin

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

To create things just to fail all of them would be wrong.

or insane

 

[The Grey Man]

it seems like omniscient omnipotent creator could have made an adam that still had free-will and chose not to sin

i mean

there's really no time limit

there could be hundreds of trillions of possible adams

it seems like at least one of them might choose not to sin

If we mean 'an adam' in the most general sense of any man, whether male or female, then I would say that, not only could God have made an adam who had free will and chose not to sin, but He actually did make one, namely Mary. Would God's creation be better if He had created just Mary and a comfortable paradise for her to live in? I do not think so, for then God would not have been able to "allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good." Adam's sin made the Incarnation and Sacrifice of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity possible, and this Sacrifice makes it possible for us to unite ourselves to God to a degree that would not have been possible otherwise.

 

[fluffy]

You are suggesting a reality can exist where evolution happens but perfectly formed forever?

are you suggesting that omnipotent omniscient creator can't know exactly what will happen everywhere at every moment from the dawn of time until the heat death of the cosmos ?

In a deterministic universe everything would be predictable but the universe is not deterministic thus can evolve.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

If we mean 'an adam' in the most general sense of any man, whether male or female, then I would say that, not only could God have made an adam who had free will and chose not to sin, but He actually did make one, namely Mary. Would God's creation be better if He had created just Mary and a comfortable paradise for her to live in? I do not think so, for then God would not have been able to "allow evil to exist, and out of it produce good." Adam's sin made the Incarnation and Sacrifice of the Second Person of the Holy Trinity possible, and this Sacrifice makes it possible for us to unite ourselves to God to a degree that would not have been possible otherwise.

in other words

omniscient omnipotent creator

created adam

with the full knowledge that this particular version of adam

would fail

because omniscient omnipotent creator

WANTED to see humans suffer

so thousands of years later

a savior could be sacrificed

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

In a deterministic universe everything would be predictable

this is not necessarily the case

it is possible to live in a simultaneously incomprehensible and deterministic universe

humans cannot detect all causal factors

but we do know that our predictive abilities improve as our data collection improves

 

[fluffy]

In a deterministic universe everything would be predictable

this is not necessarily the case

it is possible to live in a simultaneously incomprehensible and deterministic universe

humans cannot detect all causal factors

but we do know that our predictive abilities improve as our data collection improves

If God exists he created the world to obey quantum physics, so freewill would be non deterministic.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

If God exists he created the world to obey quantum physics, so freewill would be non deterministic.

please explain

 

[The Grey Man]

in other words

No, that is not what I said. I have never said that God created the world just to sacrifice "a saviour". I'm starting to think you're not reading my posts.

 

[fluffy]

If God exists he created the world to obey quantum physics, so freewill would be non deterministic.

please explain

In a deterministic universe Adam could not evolve so he would be perfect forever but that was not the case, the universe is indeteministc so Adam could make choices via those physics that allows us to evolve. This would incentivize God to make a universe where even if Adam disobeyd everything would be ok.

In my opinion God cannot make a universe without indeterministic rules. Things must evolve and so contingencies for this must be in place i.e. the beginning of the universe must be set up as a certain environment to accommodate the evolution to be sustainable.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

In a deterministic universe Adam could not evolve

evolution is deterministic

genetic mutations are causal

there is nothing about evolution

that is uncaused

 

[fluffy]

In a deterministic universe Adam could not evolve

evolution is deterministic

genetic mutations are causal

there is nothing about evolution

that is uncaused

Not at the base of reality which is quantum.

 

[fluffy]

@LOGICZOMBIE

In simple terms there is no rule telling a particle to go left or right. Evolution is an exploration of possibilities we learn from.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

the universe is indeteministc

sure, there may be some level of fundamental randomness or at least apparent randomness at quantum scales

but every single act of human will is by definition GOAL-SEEKING which means it is influenced by past experiences, NOT "free-from-cause-and-effect"

and if you inject quantum randomness

that does nothing to improve your chances of reaching your target

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Not at the base of reality which is quantum.

are your intentional, goal-seeking decisions random ?

 

[fluffy]

if you inject quantum randomness

Then this explains why Adam could make a choice to disobey as God could not make a perfectly determined outcome.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

Then this explains why Adam could make a choice to disobey as God could not make a perfectly determined outcome.

which is great, but you also have to throw away "omniscience" (and "omnipotence")

 

[fluffy]

Then this explains why Adam could make a choice to disobey as God could not make a perfectly determined outcome.

which is great, but you also have to throw away "omniscience" (and "omnipotence")

That depends on what those are.

 

[fluffy]

All knowing (omniscient) can be compatible with indeterministic process if God sees where things will evolve from as a central point (big bang?) as God defines the starting point and nothing else.

All powerful (omnipotent) would be less understood as infinite energy and more the amount of energy God wants to create in a finite reality (the starting point). Things still evolves but by constraints (the finiteness of reality)

There is a set of all evolutions as per the starting energy that will or will not be sustainable given the indeterministic process. God chooses the most sustainable set. This implies a beginning energy God had to make. If no beginning then God makes nothing. The universe is the way it is for that reason. It had a beginning and a beginner.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

All knowing (omniscient) can be compatible with indeterministic process if God sees where things will evolve from as a central point (big bang?) as God defines the starting point and nothing else.

the "starting point" + the "laws of nature"

an omniscient creator cannot inject randomness

because the only function of randomness is unpredictability

and an omniscient creator must BY DEFINITION know every detail of the future and past

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

All powerful (omnipotent) would be less understood as infinite energy and more the amount of energy God wants to create in a finite reality (the starting point). Things still evolves but by constraints (the finiteness of reality)

omnipotent is simply "all power"

there is no power "outside" of the omnipotent creator

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

There is a set of all evolutions as per the starting energy that will or will not be sustainable given the indeterministic process. God chooses the most sustainable set. This implies a beginning energy God had to make. If no beginning then God makes nothing. The universe is the way it is for that reason. It had a beginning and a beginner.

so in your framework

OOC builds a bomb (out of material found within itself)

but doesn't know exactly what the explosion will look like from nanosecond to nanosecond

because the explosion is "evolving"

 

[fluffy]

There is a set of all evolutions as per the starting energy that will or will not be sustainable given the indeterministic process. God chooses the most sustainable set. This implies a beginning energy God had to make. If no beginning then God makes nothing. The universe is the way it is for that reason. It had a beginning and a beginner.

so in your framework

OOC builds a bomb (out of material found within itself)

but doesn't know exactly what the explosion will look like from nanosecond to nanosecond

because the explosion is "evolving"

There would be tendencies of direction. A big field of probability and a set measure of attractors states that can be described with chaos mathematics. Some fields overlap giving well known distributions of what makes the system coherent. And it would not be an explosion. Space as we know it is expanding from the outside-in so not into an endless void but like a computer screen having more and more pixels.

I don't know about the Omni thing so much anymore but I do know that God would still be an overall awareness of everything and happen to try influencing things from initial conditions. God may decide where pixels of space proceed to be generated. Space expansion would align things for where the particle chooses to go next. In my other thread. I hypothesize this would add weight to the learning of a brain system because of the potential pathways it would prune.

 

[LOGICZOMBIE]

And it would not be an explosion.

ok, so you don't believe in the "big bang" ?