To all practioners of Meditation

[DIALECTIC]

Hello ! I have been meditating religiously for the last 2 years (twice a day and a couple of times a week in group meditation) and it brought a lot of positive changes in me.

However over the last 5 or 6 months i have noticed that i have sort of developped some sort of phobia that happens at times but i havent been quite able to identify it, but today i have realized that what happens is that those times of phobia are in fact times when i dont think about anything at all and that's what seem to terrify me (my ego ?) and therefore induce some sort of fear something is wrong, indeed its some sort of withdrawal from thinking...

I would like to know if others have been esperiencing this "feeling" / phobia and if so how long does it tale before its assimilated as "normal" and how do you deal with it ? My "theory" is that me ego hates not thinking and when i don't have anything to think about (which seems to happen more and more) i tend to get terrified...

Thanks for your help.

 

[Seed-Wad]

I've had that feeling as well. Not during meditation, but often at the end of an evening of relaxing and finding my mind empty. I would not call it phobia myself, more like a kind of silent panic, hysteria.
Since I gave up on ever accomplishing anything in life, nor wanting to, I haven't had those attacks anymore. I can now also close my eyes without being thrust into thought, I can just look at the blackness and not think.

Because of this correlation, I suppose that, when the mind is no longer distracted by escapist activities it can finally realize how fucked up everything is, even if only subconsciously.

 

[DIALECTIC]

I've had that feeling as well. Not during meditation, but often at the end of an evening of relaxing and finding my mind empty. I would not call it phobia myself, more like a kind of silent panic, hysteria.
Since I gave up on ever accomplishing anything in life, nor wanting to, I haven't had those attacks anymore. I can now also close my eyes without being thrust into thought, I can just look at the blackness and not think.

Because of this correlation, I suppose that, when the mind is no longer distracted by escapist activities it can finally realize how fucked up everything is, even if only subconsciously.

Yes i did forget to mention that this feeling doesnt happen during meditation but during the day, usually at night and often when i am around other people (especially if i don't share anything with them).

Do you think its my ego trying to mess up with me like him sort of saying "hey hey i exist, don't you forget about me..." ?

I notice that horrible feeling is much worse when i have been cumulating bad sleeps over a few days. You mentionned panic / hysteria, basically last night i ended up having a couple of BAD panic attacks off this feeling, i had to rely on Xanax to calm myself down as i couldn't thru meditation or trying to talk me down.

To be honest i do enjoy when not thinking about anything because i am still able to function perfectly but the good thing about those moments is that i have zero desires...

 

[Puffy]

What makes you think it's associated with meditation, if it doesn't occur in sessions? Simply due to the quietness in thought, or a common feeling it has with your practice? Also, could this feeling be more existential than ego related? I.e. The terror of staring into the prospect of nothing...

I've started meditating regularly (twice daily sessions as well) for a few months now; mine is yoga related and practices vary greatly so I think it's best to contrast with people who share in the same method.

I would say this, I was greatly surprised by the obvious physical affects I've experienced so far. It's a growing pulsing current I can feel moving through my spine, my heart, my head (the same kind of feeling you get when a chill goes down your spine) associated with feelings of joy, sometimes strain or pressure. I'm pretty certain it's because the method affects the nervous system (studies support this), and that consequently all kinds of weird affects could come out of it. If it's too uncomfortable I'd probably just lessen the practice until the feeling passes.

 

[Ex-User (9062)]

The fear of death, perhaps?

 

[DIALECTIC]

What makes you think it's associated with meditation, if it doesn't occur in sessions? Simply due to the quietness in thought, or a common feeling it has with your practice? Also, could this feeling be more existential than ego related? I.e. The terror of staring into the prospect of nothing...

I've started meditating regularly (twice daily sessions as well) for a few months now; mine is yoga related and practices vary greatly so I think it's best to contrast with people who share in the same method.

I would say this, I was greatly surprised by the obvious physical affects I've experienced so far. It's a growing pulsing current I can feel moving through my spine, my heart, my head (the same kind of feeling you get when a chill goes down your spine) associated with feelings of joy, sometimes strain or pressure. I'm pretty certain it's because the method affects the nervous system (studies support this), and that consequently all kinds of weird affects could come out of it. If it's too uncomfortable I'd probably just lessen the practice until the feeling passes.

No, i do think its meditation related since the goal of meditation is to get its benefits (peace of mind etc.) outside of the sessions, i think it is Zen that says the real practice starts when meditation ends...

As for the chills you have been experiencing since starting meditation i can also say i have been feeling them pretty much since i started meditating too, sometimes (hasnt happened in months sadly however) during practice but most of the time after or outside practice.

What practice do you do ?
I started with Transcendental Meditation, then Zen, then shamata (which is pretty similar to Zen). And i just started learning Raja Yoga too. So far Zen has been the most efficient to me i thought, also Shamata (in group sessions)... TM was good to start meditation for the first few months, then its benefits kinda stopped i thought I got into meditation after David Lynch (on videos on Youtube) spoke in such good terms about it...

 

[DIALECTIC]

The fear of death, perhaps?

No, i struggled with that very fear from age 28 to age 36 or so... Nowadays i see death as a liberation from senses, not that i look forward to it but i am finally in peace with the idea of it, i think it is cos my mind has quietener A LOT over the last 3 years or so.

My latest fear is about going crazy ! Cos you can go crazy and not die for quite some time ha ! However i noticed that fear surfaces only when i have been cumulating bad sleeps for too many consecutive days...

 

[Beat Mango]

Apparently for a small percentage of people prone to anxiety or more specifically panic attacks, meditation can make that anxiety worse. I would put myself in that category. Unfortunate as it seems to be very effective for a lot of people.

 

[Seed-Wad]

Yes i did forget to mention that this feeling doesnt happen during meditation but during the day, usually at night and often when i am around other people (especially if i don't share anything with them).

Do you think its my ego trying to mess up with me like him sort of saying "hey hey i exist, don't you forget about me..." ?

I notice that horrible feeling is much worse when i have been cumulating bad sleeps over a few days. You mentionned panic / hysteria, basically last night i ended up having a couple of BAD panic attacks off this feeling, i had to rely on Xanax to calm myself down as i couldn't thru meditation or trying to talk me down.

To be honest i do enjoy when not thinking about anything because i am still able to function perfectly but the good thing about those moments is that i have zero desires...

After reading your post, thinking again at my own experience: isn't it the desire to sleep which causes all of this? Whenever I finally get myself into bed the attack fades away (or better, I go to bed when the attack fades) and I find myself strangely relaxed and numb.

Late in the calm night, there is not much left to do, perhaps it's time for bed, but I don't feel like that yet. I'm quite tired though... But instead I just keep watching songs on youtube, doing random things on the internet.

Then it hits me, a kind of nausea. I can't go to sleep because there is something to be done, something to be figured out. But I don't know what the thing is, or what I should figure out, so I stay locked in this kind of mindless anxiety until the booze and cigarettes take off so many edges that I finally sag exhaustedly into bed, mind ragged but finally calm, finally ready for sleep.

Oke, I didn't mean to write some kind of novel here, but I think this was the only way to get a good representation of what I'm talking about.
The nausea part is really hard to explain, you should read the linked novel to really get an idea of what I'm getting at.

Do you see any parallels with your own experience?

When out with people I don't like that much I often have a very strong desire to just roll over and fall asleep...
About losing sleep: why do you lose sleep prior? Is is also because of a kind of anxiety?

You're on prescription for that Xanax? Not to be condescending, I'm pretty sure you know this but, using calming drugs whenever anxiety speaks up can permanently alter the way you think and are capable to deal with this kind of emotions (yeah, says the one who hastily grabs for booze and cigarettes at the first cloud sighting...)

No, i do think its meditation related since the goal of meditation is to get its benefits (peace of mind etc.) outside of the sessions, i think it is Zen that says the real practice starts when meditation ends...

Spoiler

As for the chills you have been experiencing since starting meditation i can also say i have been feeling them pretty much since i started meditating too, sometimes (hasnt happened in months sadly however) during practice but most of the time after or outside practice.

What practice do you do ?
I started with Transcendental Meditation, then Zen, then shamata (which is pretty similar to Zen). And i just started learning Raja Yoga too. So far Zen has been the most efficient to me i thought, also Shamata (in group sessions)... TM was good to start meditation for the first few months, then its benefits kinda stopped i thought I got into meditation after David Lynch (on videos on Youtube) spoke in such good terms about it...

Isn't that 'the way of the human'?
One should do meditation with the conviction (faith, if you will) that it will help in all aspects of life, not just to gain selective benefits. If one has to be thrust into existential angst to reach further 'enlightenment', then this must be accepted. Clinging to peace of mind will get you nowhere, not even, paradoxically, any real peace of mind over the longer term. (Just my opinion though, curious what you (guys) think about this).

 

[DIALECTIC]

After reading your post, thinking again at my own experience: isn't it the desire to sleep which causes all of this? Whenever I finally get myself into bed the attack fades away (or better, I go to bed when the attack fades) and I find myself strangely relaxed and numb.

Late in the calm night, there is not much left to do, perhaps it's time for bed, but I don't feel like that yet. I'm quite tired though... But instead I just keep watching songs on youtube, doing random things on the internet.

Then it hits me, a kind of nausea. I can't go to sleep because there is something to be done, something to be figured out. But I don't know what the thing is, or what I should figure out, so I stay locked in this kind of mindless anxiety until the booze and cigarettes take off so many edges that I finally sag exhaustedly into bed, mind ragged but finally calm, finally ready for sleep.

Oke, I didn't mean to write some kind of novel here, but I think this was the only way to get a good representation of what I'm talking about.
The nausea part is really hard to explain, you should read the linked novel to really get an idea of what I'm getting at.

Do you see any parallels with your own experience?

When out with people I don't like that much I often have a very strong desire to just roll over and fall asleep...
About losing sleep: why do you lose sleep prior? Is is also because of a kind of anxiety?

You're on prescription for that Xanax? Not to be condescending, I'm pretty sure you know this but, using calming drugs whenever anxiety speaks up can permanently alter the way you think and are capable to deal with this kind of emotions (yeah, says the one who hastily grabs for booze and cigarettes at the first cloud sighting...)



Isn't that 'the way of the human'?
One should do meditation with the conviction (faith, if you will) that it will help in all aspects of life, not just to gain selective benefits. If one has to be thrust into existential angst to reach further 'enlightenment', then this must be accepted. Clinging to peace of mind will get you nowhere, not even, paradoxically, any real peace of mind over the longer term. (Just my opinion though, curious what you (guys) think about this).

It is funny you mentionned the NAUSEA... I did buy Sartre's book a couple of months ago, i started reading it but sorta found myself bored with it around page 60 or so as i found it extremely slow (maybe in fact i was in an "hyper" mode then, therefore finding a lot of things / people a bit too slow for my own taste), granted also it was the first time in many many years i was reading a novel ! I think i am going to start reading it again, maybe i'll find some answers because the idea of the "Nausea" is what urged me to want to read it in the first place...

Did you read it ?

My "nausea" if it is what it is, is sorta something not "real", it's like there's a "tracing paper" on top of my psyché with on it the idea that something isn't quite right... In fact it is terrifying... And the worst part is i seem to be the one inducing it by wondering "Is it gone ? Is it gone", then obviously the more i wonder if it's gone it gets sorta induced... Maybe my mind is bored at the moment and trying to find a problem ("the nausea") to solve ?!

Anyway today the "nausea" or whatever it is seems gone, thank God.

I havent been using Xanax a lot but that's the only thing that took that edge / anxiety off ! In the past, for maybe 7 years so so i was taking Xanax every single day / night due to panic / anxiety attacks. My theory is that from then every time i hit something in life i can't quite digest my psyché regress to that earlier state of my evolution... "You have to regress to progress..."

 

[Seed-Wad]

Yes, I did read it. I was on my first week of taking GABA* and I was feeling strange... I googled some cryptic description of my troubles and found that book in the first click, the synopsis captured my fascination immediately, I was like 'OMG that is EXACTLY what I feel'. That made the book - that, granted, would normally be a bit sluggish - extremely captivating.

That type of nausea is something else than what I feel when I get such an attack as you described, though there are parallels and I do think they have the same source. Firstly, they are both essentially extreme captivation with a certain thought/feeling/object/sense. The gaba induced nausea (more like the book version) is a lot more pleasant though, and a lot less overwhelming.

My "nausea" if it is what it is, is sorta something not "real", it's like there's a "tracing paper" on top of my psyché with on it the idea that something isn't quite right... In fact it is terrifying... And the worst part is i seem to be the one inducing it by wondering "Is it gone ? Is it gone", then obviously the more i wonder if it's gone it gets sorta induced... Maybe my mind is bored at the moment and trying to find a problem ("the nausea") to solve ?!

Wow, that is a good description. Can't say I have got any more clues to that. I only know that this kind of hysteria has not occurred anymore since I gave up on life**.

* I started taking nutrasleep because I always slept very badly, very shallow and had a lot of dreams. I always woke up more exhausted than when I would go to bed (also exhausted). Nutrasleep helped quite a lot, so later I ordered some pills of what seemed to be the main active component, GABA. This was a lot cheaper but also had a lot less refined effect. I started having side effects, more or less boiling down to the nausea. I truly loved that kind of nausea, though it scared me in its intensity at times.
My shrink at the time told me that GABA acts on the same pathways as ritalin (amphetamines) does. As I probably have ADD, this would make GABA really effective for me. (No one else that I know with trouble sleeping who has tried GABA felt any effects.)

** Essentially: I wanted to kill myself because life sucks, but I couldn't do it for various reasons, so I just chose to continue living in a way where I, like, have a job and pay rent and food and just see what comes my way instead of wanting to achieve everything or anything; i.e. symbolic suicide of the ego in manyways.

 

[DIALECTIC]

Yes, I did read it. I was on my first week of taking GABA* and I was feeling strange... I googled some cryptic description of my troubles and found that book in the first click, the synopsis captured my fascination immediately, I was like 'OMG that is EXACTLY what I feel'. That made the book - that, granted, would normally be a bit sluggish - extremely captivating.

That type of nausea is something else than what I feel when I get such an attack as you described, though there are parallels and I do think they have the same source. Firstly, they are both essentially extreme captivation with a certain thought/feeling/object/sense. The gaba induced nausea (more like the book version) is a lot more pleasant though, and a lot less overwhelming.



Wow, that is a good description. Can't say I have got any more clues to that. I only know that this kind of hysteria has not occurred anymore since I gave up on life**.

* I started taking nutrasleep because I always slept very badly, very shallow and had a lot of dreams. I always woke up more exhausted than when I would go to bed (also exhausted). Nutrasleep helped quite a lot, so later I ordered some pills of what seemed to be the main active component, GABA. This was a lot cheaper but also had a lot less refined effect. I started having side effects, more or less boiling down to the nausea. I truly loved that kind of nausea, though it scared me in its intensity at times.
My shrink at the time told me that GABA acts on the same pathways as ritalin (amphetamines) does. As I probably have ADD, this would make GABA really effective for me. (No one else that I know with trouble sleeping who has tried GABA felt any effects.)

** Essentially: I wanted to kill myself because life sucks, but I couldn't do it for various reasons, so I just chose to continue living in a way where I, like, have a job and pay rent and food and just see what comes my way instead of wanting to achieve everything or anything; i.e. symbolic suicide of the ego in manyways.

I thought Gaba was meant to slow down, not to accelerate ?

At times (when stuck in stressful situations when i dont see any "escape") i have been feeling like killing myself too but i am scared my next earthly incarnation will be the same as this one...

 

[Seed-Wad]

Good thing I don't believe in incarnations...

Yeah, it slows down, but at a certain dose it stimulates again. Not sure how that should work... Anyhow, I seem to be extremely sensitive to the stuff, as many people say it couldn't even work because much too little/none could ever cross the blood-brain barrier to have an effect - yet I become stimulated even on a relatively low dose.

Suicide is a strange thing. There seems (research has been done) to be no necessary link between depression and suicidal thoughts. Suicide is a kind of phantasmal idea that takes root in your thoughts and persuades...

It made me think of this quote about neurosis...:
'The starting point of the neurosis is an ominous feeling of inferiority, of endangerment, a defensive reaction against a feeling that leads the patient to unify himself with a fictitious structure, which exists only in his own mind.'
It's from a book that more or less states that everyone is a psychopath, and that to help ourselves we should embrace the Arts, or find therapists and medication when we cannot find any natural behavior to cleanse ourselves of our neurotic tendencies, so there's that

 

[Benjamin Sainclair]

However over the last 5 or 6 months i have noticed that i have sort of developped some sort of phobia that happens at times but i havent been quite able to identify it, but today i have realized that what happens is that those times of phobia are in fact times when i dont think about anything at all and that's what seem to terrify me (my ego ?) and therefore induce some sort of fear something is wrong, indeed its some sort of withdrawal from thinking...

I would like to know if others have been esperiencing this "feeling" / phobia and if so how long does it tale before its assimilated as "normal" and how do you deal with it ? My "theory" is that me ego hates not thinking and when i don't have anything to think about (which seems to happen more and more) i tend to get terrified...

Thanks for your help.

Found this; it may help explain. I have not fact-checked to verify the veracity of the source but it may be worth researching.

"Dr. Solomon Snyder, head of neuroscience at Johns Hopkins University, warns that during meditation the brain releases serotonin. This may help those with mild depression but too much serotonin can cause, in some, a paradoxical relaxation-induced anxiety. Instead of relaxing during meditation, these people become distressed and may even have panic attacks. Snyder says that in some cases of schizophrenia, meditation can launch a person straight into psychosis."