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Suicidal Feelings

walfin

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How does one deal with this?

Especially if they are long term.

For quite a while I dealt with it by using my opposition to the death penalty to counter it. I argued to myself that committing suicide is the same as penalising myself and sentencing myself to death. Regardless of whether it is the state that does it or individuals, causing death is something to be abhorred. Regardless of whatever I feel I have done that has made me unworthy of further life, or if I feel life is hopeless, or that on the balance of probabilities my death would result in less suffering to those around me, it would be unfair and unjust in general to terminate my life because I believe the lives of others should not be terminated as well; why should a different rule apply to me?

Another argument I've used is a utilitarian one. Maximising happiness means maximising the happiness of the entire population, which includes me. My death is unlikely to make a significant number of people in the world happier. It would also remove whatever amount of happiness there is within me from the world, and preclude the possibility of me gaining more happiness in the future which would contribute to total happiness in general since I am also part of the world's population. As such, even when I am sad, I would be reducing the amount of total happiness in the world as well as causing it to incur an opportunity cost (i.e. my potential increased happiness in the future). Thus, it cannot be beneficial to commit suicide.

Such arguments seem lame in the face of overwhelming negative emotion.

Note that I said suicidal feelings, not thoughts. I would consider suicidal thoughts to be a rational contemplation of the possibility of suicide (more so than feelings at least), which can be countered with logical arguments.
 

The Introvert

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I am posting under the assumption that you are rational enough to understand what I am about to say and take it in stride.

After reading your post again, that assumption was well-made :)

Suicidal feelings are most likely a result of a loss of self-worth. Please understand me when I say that these feelings are serious and should not be taken lightly. Again, please understand that you can work through this and regain your sense of self-worth and happiness. Because you posted here, I take that as an admission of this, and your conscious admittance of a need for help.

The only person that can truly help you is you. You need to figure out what is making you feel this way, and come to terms with it. Although it may be difficult, it is nowhere near impossible; I'm sure you have done more difficult things in your life.

I suggest you talk to a psychiatrist; if you choose not to, then I also understand. It's difficult to talk to people about this kind of stuff. If you need someone to talk to, I truly mean it when I say you can talk to me. PM me if you wish, or whatever you're comfortable with.
 

MissQuote

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I had suicidal feelings last night. The suicidal thoughts that followed (i.e; practical efficient ways to get the job finished, whether it was worth the effort, what effect it would have on those present in the building) were what talked me out of the feelings, in a way the thoughts actually made me feel better because going through them made me see how ridiculous and impractical a solution the idea was to begin with.

I still don't feel so hot, however.

Sorry, I don't have any advice. I wouldn't even being saying this that I have just said, except there is a convenient topic right here in which to say it.
 

Nezaros

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For quite a while I dealt with it by using my opposition to the death penalty to counter it. I argued to myself that committing suicide is the same as penalising myself and sentencing myself to death. Regardless of whether it is the state that does it or individuals, causing death is something to be abhorred. Regardless of whatever I feel I have done that has made me unworthy of further life, or if I feel life is hopeless, or that on the balance of probabilities my death would result in less suffering to those around me, it would be unfair and unjust in general to terminate my life because I believe the lives of others should not be terminated as well; why should a different rule apply to me?

Another argument I've used is a utilitarian one. Maximising happiness means maximising the happiness of the entire population, which includes me. My death is unlikely to make a significant number of people in the world happier. It would also remove whatever amount of happiness there is within me from the world, and preclude the possibility of me gaining more happiness in the future which would contribute to total happiness in general since I am also part of the world's population. As such, even when I am sad, I would be reducing the amount of total happiness in the world as well as causing it to incur an opportunity cost (i.e. my potential increased happiness in the future). Thus, it cannot be beneficial to commit suicide.

I don't agree with this. If one is truly so far gone that sufficient future happiness is an impossibility, suicide is a perfectly logical action. But this could only really happen due to physical occurrences, not psychological states. The mind can always be influenced. You're also overstating the sanctity of life. There are many cases in which removing a person from existence would benefit society as a whole, but unfortunately the only reason used by society today is retribution for crimes, which really doesn't help anything.

Now that that tangent's over, I agree with Psyduck. I've never quite ventured into suicidal territory but I know what it's like to feel hopeless. You have to think about what you want out of life, what would make you happy, and realize that there's always something you can do about it. Talking to people may help you organize your thoughts, but in the end you have to work it out on your own.
 

Duxwing

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How does one deal with this?

Especially if they are long term.

For quite a while I dealt with it by using my opposition to the death penalty to counter it. I argued to myself that committing suicide is the same as penalising myself and sentencing myself to death. Regardless of whether it is the state that does it or individuals, causing death is something to be abhorred. Regardless of whatever I feel I have done that has made me unworthy of further life, or if I feel life is hopeless, or that on the balance of probabilities my death would result in less suffering to those around me, it would be unfair and unjust in general to terminate my life because I believe the lives of others should not be terminated as well; why should a different rule apply to me?

Another argument I've used is a utilitarian one. Maximising happiness means maximising the happiness of the entire population, which includes me. My death is unlikely to make a significant number of people in the world happier. It would also remove whatever amount of happiness there is within me from the world, and preclude the possibility of me gaining more happiness in the future which would contribute to total happiness in general since I am also part of the world's population. As such, even when I am sad, I would be reducing the amount of total happiness in the world as well as causing it to incur an opportunity cost (i.e. my potential increased happiness in the future). Thus, it cannot be beneficial to commit suicide.

Such arguments seem lame in the face of overwhelming negative emotion.

Note that I said suicidal feelings, not thoughts. I would consider suicidal thoughts to be a rational contemplation of the possibility of suicide (more so than feelings at least), which can be countered with logical arguments.

1.) Get a psychiatrist. No, not tomorrow, NOW. Get one NOW, there's quite literally nothing that should motivate you otherwise. Get out of the chair, stop reading this post, and call a psychiatrist. Go! Goooo!

2.) Well, I hope that you're reading this as you dial for one. Suicide is ultimately illogical because death is the termination of existence. Happiness, sadness, opportunity cost, none of these things matter if you no longer exist. To analogize, you're solving the problem of untying a knotted rope by dropping it into a volcano. Sure, the knot isn't there anymore, but you haven't actually solved the problem: in your case, unhappiness. Instead, you've just broken the mechanism that perceives it. Also, on a more practical level, you'll never actually feel any "release" of your pain. You won't feel anything at all. And I speak from experience, I've almost killed myself, and the only reason that I got so close was exactly what you've referred to: overwhelming feelings of despair. Therefore, while you're still lucid, go get a psychiatrist!

*waves a big "Go walfin!" flag*
-Duxwing
 

Inappropriate Behavior

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I've considered the possibility that one day 15-20 years from now I'd end up with a Kevorkian style machine strapped to me. I'm not looking forward to it or anything but I've thought about it. Maybe something else will get me first.

My reasons wouldn't be over mental issues. I had those before during depression episodes but I was able to rationalize those thoughts away. Feelings are always temporary. Your current emotional state will not last no matter what it is. In my mind I compared it to the weather. It's cold and rainy today, but it's going to get warm and sunny again soon.

I needed help to get to that frame of mind and through the "cold rainy days". I sought it. You sound like you may neeed help too. Seek it.
 

Nick

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@walfin I just had some waffles! Butter and syrup, pretty good, but I only had two left, kinda sucks. /me needs a job so I can buy more waffles. I know that has nothing to do with anything except your name kinda looks like waffles, but don't worry I won't try to eat you, unless you're made of waffles, then in that case, get over here!

OTOH, my thoughts are that we INTPs tend to focus on one thought and manifest it thoroughly. Has any other INTPs here not thought of suicide, we all have, and if you haven't then you're not a really an INTP. We have a million ideas cross our minds at a million miles per hour all the time, odds are one of them will be the thought of an easy way away from all the fun(read:struggles) we have in life.

Back to the question, how does one deal with them? I think of these couple of things:
- Family, I would never expose them to this, I know it would destroy them as much as it would destroy me.
- Adventure time! (not the show), you don't know what the future holds, I don't, and fuck I want to see what tomorrow brings. I've gone this far, so I might as well push on a little bit more.

As @Inappropriate Behavior said, feelings are temporary. I sure as hell bet you didn't feel shitty a year ago, or at least at some point you didn't, and I bet in a year there'll be a point where you don't feel shitty either. All emotions are like waves, they all have their troughs and crests, some are just spread out more than others.
 

walfin

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Thanks for the encouragement, INTPs.

Wow! Never thought it. I'd actually put off posting this because I was afraid the majority of the replies would be stuff that'd make me feel worse, along the lines of "dude, if life sucks just too bad" ktp ktp.

:musketeers:
 

Duxwing

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Thanks for the encouragement, INTPs.

Wow! Never thought it. I'd actually put off posting this because I was afraid the majority of the replies would be stuff that'd make me feel worse, along the lines of "dude, if life sucks just too bad" ktp ktp.

:musketeers:

You're welcome. I hope that you live to see another day, walfin. :)

-Duxwing
 

jantling

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@ waflin

I've been dealing with something that if diagnosed would probably be dysthymia for almost thirteen years. Somedays are like yesterday was, when slowing down as that semi was in the intersection at the same time I was crossing seemed like a good idea. Then others are manageable, like today.

Like a few have said, it's a temporary feeling.

The best ways of dealing with it I've found are:
1. Distraction, since mental boredom and stagnation make it seem ten thousand times worse.
2. Remind myself that it's got to stop, or relax, sometime
3. Recall that I haven't done everything I want to before dying yet
4. Rationalize living (Isn't death just as pointless as life?) I doubted that one is 100% healthy though.

(Number one is my favorite.)

So far my suicidal thoughts have stayed thoughts. I'm probably too fond of myself to be serious enough to try.
These may not help you. They're certainly don't always help me.
I never considered my family as a prevention, but I did wonder what they'd do once.



I don't agree with this. If one is truly so far gone that sufficient future happiness is an impossibility, suicide is a perfectly logical action. But this could only really happen due to physical occurrences, not psychological states. The mind can always be influenced. You're also overstating the sanctity of life. .

And this is exactly why I wonder why I bother staying alive and why I still am. Suicide is perfectly logical if that level of despair is reached. But how do you tell when you've reached it?

I don't understand fully why "Physical occurances" is the only way this could happen. Do you mean extreme injury? For example, full-body paralysis and/or coma? In which case, it's unlikely that you are capable of killing yourself. Or do you mean circumstances such as advanced-stage cancer, where there is still a chance, even if it is slim, where it could go into remission and happiness could be achieved in life?

I guess I'm disagreeing with you on hope. (Hope defined as possibility.) It's there as long as you have life. You can argue with me that hope is as murderous or more so than despair, but a greater portion of humanity still seems to prefer it.

I know I forgot to say something. Oh well. :crazy:
 

Nezaros

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Thanks for the encouragement, INTPs.

Wow! Never thought it. I'd actually put off posting this because I was afraid the majority of the replies would be stuff that'd make me feel worse, along the lines of "dude, if life sucks just too bad" ktp ktp.

:musketeers:

Hey, INTP's may be callous, unempathetic, but we know what's a good idea and what's not.

And this is exactly why I wonder why I bother staying alive and why I still am. Suicide is perfectly logical if that level of despair is reached. But how do you tell when you've reached it?

I don't understand fully why "Physical occurances" is the only way this could happen. Do you mean extreme injury? For example, full-body paralysis and/or coma? In which case, it's unlikely that you are capable of killing yourself. Or do you mean circumstances such as advanced-stage cancer, where there is still a chance, even if it is slim, where it could go into remission and happiness could be achieved in life?

I guess I'm disagreeing with you on hope. (Hope defined as possibility.) It's there as long as you have life. You can argue with me that hope is as murderous or more so than despair, but a greater portion of humanity still seems to prefer it.

I know I forgot to say something. Oh well. :crazy:

It'd be difficult to make that decision objectively I suppose, but it's possible. If you can see that, all emotions aside, to continue living would bring significantly more pain than happiness, it makes sense. Such as facing a life prison sentence (worse than death imo), or some crippling illness / condition. The book Johnny Got His Gun comes to mind. My main point is that there is no psychological reason for suicide. Hopelessness exists in the present. It will almost certainly pass at some point, and then you can continue trying to find happiness.
 

jantling

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It'd be difficult to make that decision objectively I suppose, but it's possible. If you can see that, all emotions aside, to continue living would bring significantly more pain than happiness, it makes sense. Such as facing a life prison sentence (worse than death imo), or some crippling illness / condition. The book Johnny Got His Gun comes to mind. My main point is that there is no psychological reason for suicide. Hopelessness exists in the present. It will almost certainly pass at some point, and then you can continue trying to find happiness.

Sorry, but does "that decision" mean to live or to die? (I'm guessing you mean die.)

It does make sense if life can get no better, if there will never be happiness. But how, all emotions aside, can I consider that life has either pain or happiness? Are you saying to make a decision using something more like cognitive than affective empathy, empathy since "I" seem to no longer be living with any consideration for "myself" and am only thinking of others? If all emotion is set aside, death and life would seem equal enough to be decided on a coin toss, at least in the moment. How often does that happen?

The same with life in prison and crippling illnesses and conditions, I think, since they all create a cage. Whose is suffering is being considered?

I haven't read Johnny Got His Gun, but it seems like the character has a problem similar to The English Patient. (Wikipedia) Both are trapped in their own worlds of suffering if I am right, but neither can feel their bodies anymore and their minds are wrapped in fantasy. They both live in psychological worlds. I don't know if Joe dies, but the English Patient does, by assisted suicide. He's been eaten by his memories until they define all he is, and they're not good. How can hopelessness* exist exclusively in the present, and how can a psychological reason not be enough to want to kill yourself?

I admit, these are both extreme circumstances, how often do they happen? But they do, and, I think, that it's a fairly common reason in less extreme forms.

It's equally possible to be a mix of physical and psychological reasons though.

And now there's another book on my To Be Read list. Thanks.;):p

-jantling

Edit: * And could this kind of hopelessness ever pass?
 

QuickTwist

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Is it really better to not have any state of being than having a pessemistic outlook on your happyness? Is happyness the ultimate goal of your existance? What about purpose?

I'll leave destiny out of it for now but if you make it your goal to achieve something rather than having an enjoyable state of being, keeping this frame of mind in tact, you may end up not wanting to die and may find a new passion as a result. Passion is something that always gives me a reason to live but if you don't have any you can fake it until you do.

I don't think you can predict that you will not be happy for the rest of your life. There was a time in my life where I was so shut down emotionally that I didn't want to live. Now I have no reason not to live and I have found my existence to be quite pleasant.

I hope you find joy in something that makes you feel whole and by this I mean that you should think about really giving yourself to something that you, or others, find fulfilling.
 

jantling

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Is it really better to not have any state of being than having a pessemistic outlook on your happyness? Is happyness the ultimate goal of your existance? What about purpose?

Personally, no, would be my guess.
I don't know, maybe.
Working on it.

Wow, I'm talkative tonight.
-jantling

P.s. HappIness. (Unless you mean the Pursuit of Happyness, then I'll leave you alone.):angel:
 

crippli

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Note that I said suicidal feelings, not thoughts.
Suicidal feelings may lead to thoughts that may lead to action. Those feelings is a first step of this defense mechanism, the ultimate problem solver. For this mechanism to get activated I think ones environment must be very bad. A judgment process is activated. And the stronger the J, the narrower the perspective will be. And for a P, going all J, not sure what happens then. But J is not the expert area of the P. And I would think the margin for error is high.

Thinking can take one a long way, but it's not usable for everything. For one, it doesn't satisfy hunger indefinitely. It's the same with life, life must be lived. What I've seen from most mammals is that suicidal thoughts occur in hostile environments(perhaps even exclusively). My simplistic advice would be to move elsewhere.
 

QuickTwist

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Yes, actually I did mean happIness. I'm glad you caught that.

Also, I would stop smoking weed if you are because I can almost garuntee that that is not making you less deperessed.
 

The Introvert

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:facepalm:So... many... spelling errors... ^^

Anyway, to reiterate my point to you, @walfin
I hate how I can't see if my PMs sent successfully

Or can I :phear:

"The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night" - Nietzsche

In other words, sometimes we have our bad days; sometimes, thinking about suicide even helps us get through them. This is not through acting upon our thoughts, but by realizing that we have so much more good ahead of us if we just take the time and focus on the good, rather than the bad.

I genuinely hope that you feel better soon, W, and I anticipate seeing you post in high spirits for many a time to come.

:treeswing:
 

QuickTwist

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I hate inglish wut c'n I say?

y did you delete your comment introvert?
 

Nezaros

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Sorry, but does "that decision" mean to live or to die? (I'm guessing you mean die.)

Those are two sides of the same decision. It's the choice of whether life is worth living.

It does make sense if life can get no better, if there will never be happiness. But how, all emotions aside, can I consider that life has either pain or happiness? Are you saying to make a decision using something more like cognitive than affective empathy, empathy since "I" seem to no longer be living with any consideration for "myself" and am only thinking of others? If all emotion is set aside, death and life would seem equal enough to be decided on a coin toss, at least in the moment. How often does that happen?

I should have said, present emotions aside. Acknowledging that the condition you are in is temporary and your feelings at that moment do not represent how you will feel for the rest of your life.

The same with life in prison and crippling illnesses and conditions, I think, since they all create a cage. Whose is suffering is being considered?

I haven't read Johnny Got His Gun, but it seems like the character has a problem similar to The English Patient. (Wikipedia) Both are trapped in their own worlds of suffering if I am right, but neither can feel their bodies anymore and their minds are wrapped in fantasy. They both live in psychological worlds. I don't know if Joe dies, but the English Patient does, by assisted suicide. He's been eaten by his memories until they define all he is, and they're not good. How can hopelessness* exist exclusively in the present, and how can a psychological reason not be enough to want to kill yourself?

All emotions exist exclusively in the present. Emotions come and go, which is why it's foolish to base a decision as significant as suicide on it. Of course psychological pain could make you want to kill yourself, the point is that you should try to place that aside and think about the consequences if you do and if you don't go through with it. If it can be determined with certainty that pain will far outweigh happiness for the foreseeable future, that is, that to end one's life would prevent a great deal of pain that will not be balanced out with happiness, suicide is a rational option. If you're the type of person to consider how suicide would affect others as well, that is also something to take into account. But if not, if there is enough hope that life may get better, that any potential pain will be balanced out, then keep on living. The point is that like with any other decision, this is something to be looked at rationally. Not based on the momentary feelings of hopelessness that will almost surely pass.
 

Mysty

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I was just reading the caffiene thread and noted some people start to feel anxiety and general negative feeling after even low amounts of coffee. I think I possibly do, but never really linked it to coffee. Except today I drank more than normal and am feeling those feelings I link to feeling depressed. I think I'll cut back and take notes on my mood.

Anyway, to the OP - serious question - do you consume caffiene on a regular basis? Do you think it could be contributing to your negative feelings? How do you know it isn't? (unless you drink none)
 

snafupants

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For quite a while I dealt with it by using my opposition to the death penalty to counter it. I argued to myself that committing suicide is the same as penalising myself and sentencing myself to death.

That's essentially what the premeditation of suicide is - being your own judge, jury and (unfortunately) executioner. These folks could often benefit from taking a step back, which the veil of their anguished depression somewhat precludes. I'm glad to hear you're not pushing daisies yet, walfin. ;)
 

snafupants

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Another argument I've used is a utilitarian one. Maximising happiness means maximising the happiness of the entire population, which includes me.

Here's the thing - when you're feeling good and living somewhat periphery to ego-mind diktats, an argument for/against living carries considerably less weight. There's a delight in just living. Why would you want to torture yourself? Find something you love and do it.
 

The Introvert

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I hate inglish wut c'n I say?

y did you delete your comment introvert?

I didn't; I edited it :D

And my apologies if my comment came off as rude. It's just normally, people around here are pristine in both grammatical and spelling rules. Your presence caught me off guard.
 

walfin

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I was just reading the caffiene thread and noted some people start to feel anxiety and general negative feeling after even low amounts of coffee. I think I possibly do, but never really linked it to coffee. Except today I drank more than normal and am feeling those feelings I link to feeling depressed. I think I'll cut back and take notes on my mood.

Anyway, to the OP - serious question - do you consume caffiene on a regular basis? Do you think it could be contributing to your negative feelings? How do you know it isn't? (unless you drink none)

Hm.

Been drinking coffee since 11, currently I limit myself to only 2 cups a day (1x morning, 1x afternoon, otherwise I feel too sleepy - am not a morning person).

And I've been depressed since...forever, except when something good happens.

Which is normal, isn't it? Some very positive people can feel happy and look on the bright side of things, most of us are happy when good things happen and sad otherwise. Of course the self help books say the key is to be happy "inside" which is really a pointless thing to say since I can't do a #define HAPPY TRUE (const bool happy=true; for you C++ purists) to myself, can I?
 

Nezaros

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Some very positive people can feel happy and look on the bright side of things, most of us are happy when good things happen and sad otherwise.

Sadness is a negative state, I would think that most people are neutral most of the time. At times slightly below, melancholy, at times slightly above, contented, and of course sometimes more in either direciton.
 

snafupants

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Sadness is a negative state, I would think that most people are neutral most of the time. At times slightly below, melancholy, at times slightly above, contented, and of course sometimes more in either direciton.

How much is this post really saying haha? Yeah, normal is normal. :D
 

Mysty

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Hm.

Been drinking coffee since 11, currently I limit myself to only 2 cups a day (1x morning, 1x afternoon, otherwise I feel too sleepy - am not a morning person).

And I've been depressed since...forever, except when something good happens.

Which is normal, isn't it? Some very positive people can feel happy and look on the bright side of things, most of us are happy when good things happen and sad otherwise. Of course the self help books say the key is to be happy "inside" which is really a pointless thing to say since I can't do a #define HAPPY TRUE (const bool happy=true; for you C++ purists) to myself, can I?

been drinking coffee since 11am or 11 years of age? If it was 11 years old, then that would be "forever".
I limit myself to 2 cups of coffee a day, but when I had the 3rd yesterday that is when I noticed an affect, then I wondered if there was a link after all. At one stage in my life 1 cup of coffee would bring on an attack of the sads bigtime. I think I am fine with it now, but I could just be keeping myself on a slow-drip of sad and got used to it. It is just a theory that is unlikely to hold any weight, but couldn't hurt to try an experiment to see the difference between with coffee and without. I drink it when I am tired to try and wake up. Yesterday I did something novel - I went to bed early (took some herbal sleep remedy) and wow did I feel so more positive in the morning. Being tired is a big contributor to depression - when i was sleep deprived I was chronically depressed.

I stress I did not feel "happy" though. Yes, it is normal to feel "happy" when something really funny or great happens. The euphoria doesn't last that long usually.

My definition of normal happy is the absence of sadness. Euphoria happy is excited/happy and is what most people mean for happy. Those self help books that bang on about happy have been proved to be more responsible for the surge in people thinking they need Prozac - it is a total myth. Noone can truly be euphoria/happy "inside" all the time, unless they are delusional.
 

Sorlaize

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Maximising happiness means maximising the happiness of the entire population

..

Such arguments seem lame in the face of overwhelming negative emotion

tackle it with application of psychology? By getting friends.

Apparently intelligent people (I have a pic of Einstein sad) get depressed most, this could be to do with motivation/drive for INTPs, I think it has something to do with loneliness.

I find I get in a bad cycle sometimes which I can't change forever at the good times in the cycle. I'm trying to work out how to get around it. I try to find good and new experiences to combat general negative feelings, including a sense of impending existential doom that I get every day. Well, actually today and yesterday I realized I'm really loving my life. It's just that I get thrown about quite a bit emotionally.


I've decided, long-term, that I'm devoting my life to "playing it safe" and trying to make a difference in the world anyway. Even if nothing at all matters. At least I gave it a good shot. And that's all anyone could ever expect. I'm down-to-earth; I'm genuine; and I'm a scientist with a heart. Infact I'm proud of myself at this point in my life even though I basically devalue and find boring most of what I do when I look back at it, critically. I should give myself more credit for doing what I do every day and trying.

Ultimately are you doing all you can? I think that's all you need to ask. Don't feel bad about things you can't change but instead take positive steps and accept it's all you can do today.

Biologically, you need a balance of pleasant and challenging things in your life. Respect the very real limitations of your mind/body and work from there. That's the best thing you can do for your future self. Get clarity; think broader; plan. Damn, I should listen to this.
 

Duxwing

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tackle it with application of psychology? By getting friends.

Apparently intelligent people (I have a pic of Einstein sad) get depressed most, this could be to do with motivation/drive for INTPs, I think it has something to do with loneliness.

I find I get in a bad cycle sometimes which I can't change forever at the good times in the cycle. I'm trying to work out how to get around it. I try to find good and new experiences to combat general negative feelings, including a sense of impending existential doom that I get every day. Well, actually today and yesterday I realized I'm really loving my life. It's just that I get thrown about quite a bit emotionally.


I've decided, long-term, that I'm devoting my life to "playing it safe" and trying to make a difference in the world anyway. Even if nothing at all matters. At least I gave it a good shot. And that's all anyone could ever expect. I'm down-to-earth; I'm genuine; and I'm a scientist with a heart. Infact I'm proud of myself at this point in my life even though I basically devalue and find boring most of what I do when I look back at it, critically. I should give myself more credit for doing what I do every day and trying.

Ultimately are you doing all you can? I think that's all you need to ask. Don't feel bad about things you can't change but instead take positive steps and accept it's all you can do today.

Biologically, you need a balance of pleasant and challenging things in your life. Respect the very real limitations of your mind/body and work from there. That's the best thing you can do for your future self. Get clarity; think broader; plan. Damn, I should listen to this.

To extend your "you're only human" logic, note that all human endeavours are devoid of objective meaning. Indeed, the whole concept of "meaning" is a human one. Some of us want security in knowing what to do and whether we'll look back on our lives in pride or regret; thus, we create philosophical structures in order to supply this security and ignore emotions that don't fit them. It's a sad tale, really. The knowledge of this existential nothingness makes me feel pathetic in practicing philosophy, yet I don't feel like giving up the fight-- not for objective truth or some other holy grail, but for an understanding of the models that I hold dear.

I think that these moments of clarity are what Jung referred to when he wrote about integrating the inferior function.

-Duxwing
 

walfin

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been drinking coffee since 11am or 11 years of age? If it was 11 years old, then that would be "forever".
I limit myself to 2 cups of coffee a day, but when I had the 3rd yesterday that is when I noticed an affect, then I wondered if there was a link after all. At one stage in my life 1 cup of coffee would bring on an attack of the sads bigtime. I think I am fine with it now, but I could just be keeping myself on a slow-drip of sad and got used to it. It is just a theory that is unlikely to hold any weight, but couldn't hurt to try an experiment to see the difference between with coffee and without. I drink it when I am tired to try and wake up. Yesterday I did something novel - I went to bed early (took some herbal sleep remedy) and wow did I feel so more positive in the morning. Being tired is a big contributor to depression - when i was sleep deprived I was chronically depressed.

Since 11 years old.

Yeah, i'v had friends who have sworn off coffee. But I'm sleepy in the day and I don't think I'm really addicted to caffeine.
 

QuickTwist

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I didn't; I edited it :D

And my apologies if my comment came off as rude. It's just normally, people around here are pristine in both grammatical and spelling rules. Your presence caught me off guard.

:oldman:I have never cared much for the details of things and instead tried to foucus on the general sense of the concept and grammar is no exception to me.

Your comment was not taken as rude because I know i am a bad speller and I was not offended in the slightest.

Best of luck to all of those who are struggleing with depression and suicidal feelings.
 

pjoa09

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1.) Get a psychiatrist. No, not tomorrow, NOW. Get one NOW, there's quite literally nothing that should motivate you otherwise. Get out of the chair, stop reading this post, and call a psychiatrist. Go! Goooo!

2.) Well, I hope that you're reading this as you dial for one. Suicide is ultimately illogical because death is the termination of existence. Happiness, sadness, opportunity cost, none of these things matter if you no longer exist. To analogize, you're solving the problem of untying a knotted rope by dropping it into a volcano. Sure, the knot isn't there anymore, but you haven't actually solved the problem: in your case, unhappiness. Instead, you've just broken the mechanism that perceives it. Also, on a more practical level, you'll never actually feel any "release" of your pain. You won't feel anything at all. And I speak from experience, I've almost killed myself, and the only reason that I got so close was exactly what you've referred to: overwhelming feelings of despair. Therefore, while you're still lucid, go get a psychiatrist!

*waves a big "Go walfin!" flag*
-Duxwing


PFFTTT... Suicidal since 12 mothafuckaaaa!!

The only place where I brag about this.

It's kinda weird to brag about it but being 21 its pretty amazing how well I have held on.

A psychiatrist won't help.

@walfin Go look at some gory shit. If looking at Chechens slitting throats of Russian soldiers slowly doesn't affect you then look at a psychiatrist. I mean that stuff just makes you think damn son it ain't so bad for me.
 

Duxwing

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PFFTTT... Suicidal since 12 mothafuckaaaa!!

The only place where I brag about this.

It's kinda weird to brag about it but being 21 its pretty amazing how well I have held on.

A psychiatrist won't help.

@walfin Go look at some gory shit. If looking at Chechens slitting throats of Russian soldiers slowly doesn't affect you then look at a psychiatrist. I mean that stuff just makes you think damn son it ain't so bad for me.

A psychiatrist may not have helped you, but seeing one could help him. Your condition is evidently harder to crack than most. The greater problems argument is as fallacious as it is detrimental: you can care about two things (yourself and the Russians, as per your example) and believing otherwise prevents you from focusing on your problems by offering a distraction.

-Duxwing
 

Tony3d

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A psychiatrist may not have helped you, but seeing one could help him. Your condition is evidently harder to crack than most. The greater problems argument is as fallacious as it is detrimental: you can care about two things (yourself and the Russians, as per your example) and believing otherwise prevents you from focusing on your problems by offering a distraction.

-Duxwing

Or seeing a psychiatrist could be the worst thing to ever happen to him.

My opinion has always been, fix what is wrong with you life, don't go to a psychiatrist to tell you how to be happy with it being wrong...
 

Vict

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Do what you have to do, and accept that when you're done then it'll be time to die.
 

pjoa09

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A psychiatrist may not have helped you, but seeing one could help him. Your condition is evidently harder to crack than most. The greater problems argument is as fallacious as it is detrimental: you can care about two things (yourself and the Russians, as per your example) and believing otherwise prevents you from focusing on your problems by offering a distraction.

-Duxwing

I am not concerned about Russians. I am concerned with the appeal of death to walfin. Before buying anything or any service you need some product/service reviews. I was just providing an example of a product review.

Clearly you haven't read my words attentively enough or I am not coherent enough (this one maybe) .

It's sort of like, getting a supercar to do your groceries. Sounds absolutely amazing and then it's a pain in the ass or outright dangerous.

I just don't like how everyone goes about saying one needs to visit a psychiatrist if the topic of death ever crossed their mind. It does cross a lot of peoples minds and will continue to cross everyone's mind at an increasing rate (I think). It's very easy to detach yourself from your environment nowadays and that distorts ones perception of death.

I am pretty sure I am not alone with intruding thoughts and this thread proves exactly that.
 

Beat Mango

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12 years old!! Wow. Mine was probably 15. Now I'm 29 and still going on strong (as in, still think of ending it). When such a simple thing like being alone with someone causes my nervous system to go into meltdown, then I don't really know what hope there is for me.
 

kantor1003

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When such a simple thing like being alone with someone causes my nervous system to go into meltdown, then I don't really know what hope there is for me.
And you don't think you can get accustomed to being alone with someone if you continually try to put yourself in such situations? I think such anxiety can be worked with, but I can't back that claim up with anything but personal experience (apart from reading and hearing various assertions from others to similar effect).
 

Duxwing

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Or seeing a psychiatrist could be the worst thing to ever happen to him.

My opinion has always been, fix what is wrong with you life, don't go to a psychiatrist to tell you how to be happy with it being wrong...

You're assuming that all psychological problems can be fixed. Chronic, idiopathic (from the perspective of trauma or stress) is almost by definition a chemical imbalance in the brain: an imbalance that, for example, can result from neurons at the transmitting end of your synapses re-uptaking (sucking back in) serotonin too quickly for neurons at the receiving end of your synapses to receive the chemical "message". This problem, barring gene-therapy, cannot be cured: it can only be treated through talk therapy (for the behavioral problems) and an SSRI, which inhibits serotonin re-uptake to the point that you can live a normal life.

So the problem of depression is far more complex than an unresolved psychodynamic or sociodynamic conflict. It can often be the result of chemical imbalances or other uncurable problems. Certainly, leaving resolvable conflicts unresolved and then just trying to ignore them is a terrible idea, but you're only covering a tiny sliver of the vast and tangled web that is psychotherapy.

-Duxwing
 

Duxwing

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I am not concerned about Russians. I am concerned with the appeal of death to walfin. Before buying anything or any service you need some product/service reviews. I was just providing an example of a product review.

Clearly you haven't read my words attentively enough or I am not coherent enough (this one maybe) .

It's sort of like, getting a supercar to do your groceries. Sounds absolutely amazing and then it's a pain in the ass or outright dangerous.

I just don't like how everyone goes about saying one needs to visit a psychiatrist if the topic of death ever crossed their mind. It does cross a lot of peoples minds and will continue to cross everyone's mind at an increasing rate (I think). It's very easy to detach yourself from your environment nowadays and that distorts ones perception of death.

I am pretty sure I am not alone with intruding thoughts and this thread proves exactly that.

First, why does psychotherapy become dangerous over time? My relationships with my therapists point to the contrary: if they were worth anything to begin with, they've only gotten better with more visits.

Second, you're attacking a strawman: Walfin came to us because he suffers from constant, intrusive suicidal thoughts, not because the thought of ending his life just happened to cross his mind.

-Duxwing
 

Etheri

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Just one thought i've always had concerning suicide...

If I got to the point where my own life got so little value I might actually end it, there's a whole lot of things I'd want to try but don't due to the risk attached. You can leave everything and anything behind and see if you can survive by yourself, in the jungle or the desert or on one of the poles. You can test the craziest drugs, because who cares about the risks. Same thing when you're diagnosed with some lethal disease and you know you're dying.

I know it sounds pretty stupid, but if want to finish yourself, do it with a bang. Expand your vision of what life is, before you decide to end it. Risk and pain has lost it's meaning at this point, either way. Do an aaron swartz and leak a billion information. See if you can hike around the world without any money, ID, name or home to return to. Do something crazy, let them try to stop you. If things go too wrong, suicide is always still an option. Keep some cyanide near.
 

Bucca

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Just one thought i've always had concerning suicide...

If I got to the point where my own life got so little value I might actually end it, there's a whole lot of things I'd want to try but don't due to the risk attached. You can leave everything and anything behind and see if you can survive by yourself, in the jungle or the desert or on one of the poles. You can test the craziest drugs, because who cares about the risks. Same thing when you're diagnosed with some lethal disease and you know you're dying.

I know it sounds pretty stupid, but if want to finish yourself, do it with a bang. Expand your vision of what life is, before you decide to end it. Risk and pain has lost it's meaning at this point, either way. Do an aaron swartz and leak a billion information. See if you can hike around the world without any money, ID, name or home to return to. Do something crazy, let them try to stop you. If things go too wrong, suicide is always still an option. Keep some cyanide near.

I used to think this. When I was a small child I told myself if I ever got to the point where I wanted to kill myself I should just drop out of school/quit my job and run away to California or some shit like that and find happiness. But now I know you can't escape your mind.
I was in the ER about week ago to see a crisis counselor as my parents thought I was going to go through with my suicidal thoughts. Though the wait time was 2 hours so we left, got to love public health care.
 

pjoa09

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First, why does psychotherapy become dangerous over time? My relationships with my therapists point to the contrary: if they were worth anything to begin with, they've only gotten better with more visits.

Second, you're attacking a strawman: Walfin came to us because he suffers from constant, intrusive suicidal thoughts, not because the thought of ending his life just happened to cross his mind.

-Duxwing

How do you pay for all that and still feel okay? I meant as humanity progresses with technology we grow prone to derealization. I wasn't jabbing at psychotheraphy.

Yes I have experienced episodes of constant, intrusive thoughts of suicide since 12. I am fairly sensitive at times to harsh criticisms and life changes.

If he has free public health care then by all means proceed but I don't think it's really such an issue where you need psychotherapists and medication.

A little exercise, some thrilling activities (go-kart, motorbike?), a couple of friends, and meeting a couple of friends' friends is really the first step to getting rid of suicidal feelings.

You really don't want to kill yourself when you think life is going good.

Oh and fuck coffee go tea. Seriously. Whenever I drink coffee I get fucking depressed. I don't know it's just too much stimulation lately since I started working out. Makes me nostalgic and stuff. Avoid using Facebook excessively too.

Gonna still try to take some more @walfin attention.
 

crippli

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Regarding the therapists and psychologists. I have had some hours conversation with both types, not on this subject. There are some problems, these 4 people all arrive at different conclusions. I wonder if they are not just typing themselves, so in a way I could be mirroring them. Not sure, but that is what it feels like. So except talking to someone, it wasn't overly helpful. At the end of the day they also had me do a bunch of self analyses tests. So similar to what we do on here.

For me personally, regarding the subject, other people are much more concerned about me, then I am. The last psychologist was also worried, and bugged me more then I would consider normal about that point. I replied only shortly on that, that I was fine, that there was no need to worry. I do have this longing, that it would feel good to be finished. Not scary, and that changed at some point, as I was very scared earlier. But I don't see that there would be anything that would make me act on that, determined, not yet. Not the playful way I have addressed it earlier. But have noticed these feelings. And it is also a mental barrier that prevent one from focusing, and remove the element of randomness and luck. I can both see and feel that barrier. And if I choose to brake it(as would be easy), then I would have an unsolvable problem I think. So my life raft isn't great, but it's there. I don't feel I deserve it, or know why it doesn't abandon me, but it's there, and appears to be mine. I can let it go, or hold on. As long as I have strength, I'll stick to the raft. But sometimes I get tired and drink too much on purpose, just to see if I will wake up on the raft. Not so good. I've been lucky.. I've stopped that, mostly, was most frequent when I was a teenager.

This last paragraph is something I will not talk with the psychologist about, but told them parts, so they are aware. Primarily, because it is not the subject of why I talk to them. I think what I want from them is to analyze the problem I have put fourth, and provide solution and for that I will pay them money. Like any other consult. Not sure if this was useful, but my limited experience with the profession at least. My next meeting is in two weeks. And I am still equally hopeful each time, that this time, they will have it figured out.
 

Sorlaize

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To extend your "you're only human" logic, note that all human endeavours are devoid of objective meaning. Indeed, the whole concept of "meaning" is a human one. Some of us want security in knowing what to do and whether we'll look back on our lives in pride or regret; thus, we create philosophical structures in order to supply this security and ignore emotions that don't fit them. It's a sad tale, really. The knowledge of this existential nothingness makes me feel pathetic in practicing philosophy, yet I don't feel like giving up the fight-- not for objective truth or some other holy grail, but for an understanding of the models that I hold dear.
yeah, and that is a really interesting topic. The way most people are psychologically thinking about life achievements. Because, I think we often know that society lies to us about empty promises. Past a certain point (and it is something I'm evaluating now) why should you work for someone else to profit? I think most people presume it's only useful to think inside of what your local life and activities means to you. But when you look at the big picture... (and it's difficult to put it into words because you have to be invested in the big picture to start caring.)

For me I'm finding more and more I'm both glad I do many things with my time but also angry at the limitations I'm left with. Which is kind of nonsensical in itself because you can only be pessimistic or optimistic about the modern era, both of which are extreme.. again, it's the nature of existence which is absurd, and there's no human reason for anything. I recognize who I am is defined by and produced as a part of this world-- belonging to this world. So, I "should make the most of it", however, there are a few things I'm throwing around in my head still in particular;-

1) I want to be sincere and to have an unsilenced effect on the world. Whatever the cost

2) I want to really live, because I've found the value of it recently. That means saying what I feel; being a part of this world and taking that seriously

3) I want to create great things, and that requires transcending the obvious, repetitive methods others use.




It's a sad tale, really.
I would say the existence of human civilization / our world, is very sad. But why does it *have* to be sad? It doesn't; you are the catalyst of your life and you can choose to see the good more than the bad, to be able to live psychologically well. It's great to appreciate the bad and to do it justice in thought, but if you want to objectively contribute to society then torturing yourself with depressive thoughts isn't helping that aim. Take a good break from that behaviour; think of the bigger picture; think about what you really want. Really press yourself to come up with answers to your most difficult questions.. that's what I always do. That's how you develop thinking. Challenge every thought. Draw up pieces of information and test theories. Connect. Disprove and demolish other peoples' thoughts. Analyze peoples' psychology, and repeat the process.

If you don't have a good go at life / developing thinking in the first place, how could you ever draw meaningful conclusions about whether to live in the first place?


The knowledge of this existential nothingness makes me feel pathetic in practicing philosophy, yet I don't feel like giving up the fight-- not for objective truth or some other holy grail, but for an understanding of the models that I hold dear.
It doesn't have to be for objective truth. I feel let down for example because anything I might contribute could be used for tyrannical purposes. There are plenty of reasons to not do something, but you as an individual you will want to find what is interesting to you; to have those experiences of achieving something you really care about. That's what you're evaluating here; don't sell it short. You don't have to live for objective fact. You only have to do what you feel like doing. Everyone dies, and some people will have led entirely purposeless lives. I myself realize everything I value and think is amazing, actually only applies to me and even if I created the things I'd love to create best, they'd only be valuable for a certain time and only for me really. Meaning is an incredibly complex concept. That's why we simplify. It's all we can rationalize generally: guiding phrases that can roughly be applied across the board for individuals, on an individualistic basis/purpose.



I think that these moments of clarity are what Jung referred to when he wrote about integrating the inferior function.
If you mean sensing then yes, for INTPs;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKEjK-7Za6A

but for me it's intuition I've really been gaining so much from lately esp. with philosophy. But then, on the other hand, what I said above would seem to support that notion that it makes someone.. more complete? (there was a quote to the effect "only when a man starts thinking worldly he is a true man")
 

walfin

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If he has free public health care then by all means proceed but I don't think it's really such an issue where you need psychotherapists and medication.

Haven't got that where I live. Darn you lucky Europeans (I assume you must be one).

Well yes nobody ever wants to off themselves when life is indeed good. Good is subjective but everyone knows intuitively what they like to do or want to have. I suppose it is hopelessness or the feeling of it that paralyses.
 

pjoa09

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Haven't got that where I live. Darn you lucky Europeans (I assume you must be one).

Well yes nobody ever wants to off themselves when life is indeed good. Good is subjective but everyone knows intuitively what they like to do or want to have. I suppose it is hopelessness or the feeling of it that paralyses.

@walfin


I don't have that either by the way. :)

Do those little things that make you feel good, get some exercise, eat well, smoke well, drink well, and spend some time with your friends. The urge to kill yourself will disappear. Get some serotonin and dopamine pumping.
 

Mysty

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At the end of the day, my opinion of suicide is that it is the cowards way out and that it is the most selfish thing you can ever do. It doesn't actually hurt you if you are successful - but it hurts the living that you left behind. Even if the person who suicides that has no family and friends - eg. if they have jumped in front of a train it traumatises the train driver. If they are found dead somewhere by a passerby or a neighbour - they are upset and sometimes very shaken up so it affects their life. The policemen who have to investigate the deaths, eventually it often takes it toll after they have seen so many pointless suicides. But if you DO have family and friends - it devestates them and can frequently impact their lives forever in a very negative way.

Think of others more, less of yourself and your own feelings. Just DO something for someone else, get out of yourself. And if you can't do this on your own, ask someone to help. Help can come in unexpected ways. You might find a counsellor helpful, a real life friend, or even an internet friend might help.
 

walfin

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At the end of the day, my opinion of suicide is that it is the cowards way out and that it is the most selfish thing you can ever do. It doesn't actually hurt you if you are successful - but it hurts the living that you left behind. Even if the person who suicides that has no family and friends - eg. if they have jumped in front of a train it traumatises the train driver. If they are found dead somewhere by a passerby or a neighbour - they are upset and sometimes very shaken up so it affects their life. The policemen who have to investigate the deaths, eventually it often takes it toll after they have seen so many pointless suicides. But if you DO have family and friends - it devestates them and can frequently impact their lives forever in a very negative way.

This is a very sensible thing to think but not really to say to someone who's suicidal, IMHO (or at least, not a IN*P type).

Duty motivates the SJ, but it might just put the IN*P into a worse mental breakdown.

Oh in any case I'm not and was not imminently suicidal; that I can continue posting here is a testament to that.
 
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