SPLIT from "What gender are you internally?"

[Jennywocky]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I'm not much for pride parades or events, personally. (Why are we discussing that topic anyway? It seems like a diversion from topic.) I've been to a few, but I'm just not into big events with a loud extroverted flair to them regardless.

I don't really see them as anything more wild than music festivals and shows, though, depending on the group and locale, or as others have noted the Carnival festivals. There's a lot of crazy crap that the heterosexual community indulges in.

I also see some of it as a holdover from the earliest gay pride events in large urban venues, which was dominated by certain groups in the LGBT umbrella, starting in a time period in USA culture where the social oppression was horrendous -- so of course they chose the "in your face" response as a position of strength. This was when gay people weren't allowed to have socially accepted "regular" relationships and -- in the same way that if a person is forced to repress to a horrible degree, they will suffer occasional explosions of behavior when finally getting a brief temporary window -- thus got a reputation for hedonism. With more options over the years socially, which have allowed them to build regular relationships, diversity within the umbrella has increased dramatically and hence the clamor for actual marriage rights since many simply work jobs, maintain a marriage-like relationship with partners, raise children, own a domicile, etc. It's been a natural evolution as society has slowly grown to accept them as just another legitimate orientation.

I am a doctor.

So, good, so you treat gender dysphoric patients?
Where do you practice?

 

[zerkalo]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

At the same time, anything that cheapens sex is a definite no for me.

I'm the same in that regard. But I dont think I should have any say in how other people wish to act if it's not harming anyone. That is all.

 

[Inquisitor]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Edit:
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt by assuming that you hold some random definition of feminism other than "movements giving women the equal right to vote, to hold public office, to work, to fair wages or equal pay, to own property, to education, to enter contracts, and to have equal rights within marriage (criminalizing marital rape and battery)."

If you think that's the feminism of today, you are living in a bubble. Women already have all of those things and more. So tell me, what is feminism's role in society today?

 

[Yellow]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

If you think that's the feminism of today, you are living in a bubble. Women already have all of those things and more. So tell me, what is feminism's role in society today?

To establish and maintain these rights, hopefully by addressing the issues that made feminism necessary. While the "first-wave", which I described above, is still struggling to get off the ground in many world regions, we are able to move on to broader issues that would fall under the umbrella of feminism. Like reversing the belief that being the victim of abuse is a sign of weakness. What society is essentially telling us, when we marginalize men who are victims of abuse, is that being abused is a woman's role -- that victimized men should be ashamed of themselves and feel emasculated. The underlying concept hurts both genders. It perpetuates the misconception that power comes from violence, and it stops us from growing as an egalitarian society.

 

[Inquisitor]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

To establish and maintain these rights, hopefully by addressing the issues that made feminism necessary. While the "first-wave", which I described above, is still struggling to get off the ground in many world regions, we are able to move on to broader issues that would fall under the umbrella of feminism. Like reversing the belief that being the victim of abuse is a sign of weakness. What society is essentially telling us, when we marginalize men who are victims of abuse, is that being abused is a woman's role -- that victimized men should be ashamed of themselves and feel emasculated. The underlying concept hurts both genders. It perpetuates the misconception that power comes from violence, and it stops us from growing as an egalitarian society.

Well if that's what modern feminism is advocating, this is the first time I've ever heard of it. That all sounds fair to me. I've never heard this perspective on any major mass media outlet. Certainly not on TV.

All I hear about is "women still make 77 cents on the dollar" compared to men, and there aren't enough women in the executive suite, and there's not enough diversity in silicon valley, and sexual assault is widespread on college campuses, and "lean in," and "men are obsolete" on and on, relentless bullsh*t.

 

[zerkalo]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

to say that something x shouldn't be done is different from saying that something y (threat of violence from state monopoly) should be done so that x doesn't get done.

i can say that i don't think it's a good idea to take 1000 blotters of acid. still i'm not a prohibitionist.

i can say that if the purpose is emancipation of LGBT, making a campaign that perpetuates conflation of LGBT with something that has barbarian connotations isn't a good idea. i happen to agree with the purpose so i don't think it's a good idea. it shouldn't be done.

this is all hypothetical anyway. point being the distinction itself.

When you put it that way, I have no problem with what you're saying. But if you take the 2 distinctions you made and examine Inquisitor's posts here, you will find that it belongs in the second category because of his reference to "laws" and whatever.

As you said, this might just be a problem with the way inquisitor is communicating his thoughts. But then again, he did maintain the same tone and vocabulary even after you pointed that out.

 

[Yellow]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Well if that's what modern feminism is advocating, this is the first time I've ever heard of it. That all sounds fair to me. I've never heard this perspective on any major mass media outlet. Certainly not on TV.

All I hear about is "women still make 77 cents on the dollar" compared to men, and there aren't enough women in the executive suite, and there's not enough diversity in silicon valley, and sexual assault is widespread on college campuses, and "lean in," and "men are obsolete" on and on, relentless bullsh*t.

Well, I don't watch TV, listen to the news, or go on Facebook, but I find that the vocal minority generally has a knack for being offensive and petty. After all, you hear more about the Westboro Baptist Church than any other chuches (I assume that's still true), and Al Qaeda and ISIS more than about moderate Muslim organizations. There's nothing sensational about rational, moderate views. They aren't going to elicit attention, or get our blood boiling, so they are often passed by.

Edit: As far as i understand it, assault (sexual and otherwise) really is rather prevalent on college campuses. At least it's been true for the last several decades.

 

[Inquisitor]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Well, I don't watch TV, listen to the news, or go on Facebook, but I find that the vocal minority generally has a knack for being offensive and petty. After all, you hear more about the Westboro Baptist Church than any other chuches (I assume that's still true), and Al Qaeda and ISIS more than about moderate Muslim organizations. There's nothing sensational about rational, moderate views. They aren't going to elicit attention, or get our blood boiling, so they are often passed by.

Edit: As far as i understand it, assault (sexual and otherwise) really is rather prevalent on college campuses. At least it's been true for the last several decades.

If you include the White House in the minority, then it's a pretty powerful one. All this stuff starts right at the top and trickles down the wire. It's basically national policy. There's a White House commission for women and girls but none for boys/men. That really says it all.

As for sexual assault, again it's mostly just an easy path to fame/attention for young women. Actual rape is nearly nonexistent on college campuses. Plus last time I checked, getting wasted, hooking up with a stranger, and then crying rape days/weeks/months later is 99% the woman's fault. Every time I read about one of these alleged "victims" I want to ask them: If you didn't want to have sex, why did you consume alcohol to begin with? It's the best way to impair your judgement and lower your sexual inhibitions. You could have just gone to the party and not consumed someone else's jungle juice (w/Everclear and who knows what else). It's just a big scam. But it wins political points.

 

[Yellow]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

As for sexual assault, again it's mostly just an easy path to fame/attention for young women. Actual rape is nearly nonexistent on college campuses. Plus last time I checked, getting wasted, hooking up with a stranger, and then crying rape days/weeks/months later is 99% the woman's fault. Every time I read about one of these alleged "victims" I want to ask them: If you didn't want to have sex, why did you consume alcohol to begin with? It's the best way to impair your judgement and lower your sexual inhibitions. You could have just gone to the party and not consumed someone else's jungle juice (w/Everclear and who knows what else). It's just a big scam. But it wins political points.

Those are some bold statements. But, maybe you know something we don't know. I haven't followed 100% of campus rape charges, so I wouldn't know how 99% of the fault lies. I guess it's a good thing that you're on top of it.

 

[dark+matters]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Back on topic there are currently 0 votes for 100% female. Why do you think that is? I'm almost tempted to put that as my vote for fun.

I think it might be because there are more male than female INTPs. Also, the wording won't allow me to feel comfortable responding. My sex is definitely female, but gender is a sort of vague idea to me. I also wonder if female INTPs leave online interactions more frequently.

There's a White House commission for women and girls but none for boys/men. That really says it all.

As for sexual assault, again it's mostly just an easy path to fame/attention for young women. Actual rape is nearly nonexistent on college campuses. Plus last time I checked, getting wasted, hooking up with a stranger, and then crying rape days/weeks/months later is 99% the woman's fault. Every time I read about one of these alleged "victims" I want to ask them: If you didn't want to have sex, why did you consume alcohol to begin with? It's the best way to impair your judgement and lower your sexual inhibitions. You could have just gone to the party and not consumed someone else's jungle juice (w/Everclear and who knows what else). It's just a big scam. But it wins political points.

These are cliched ideas which frequently correspond with incidents of sexual harassment and discrimination, and they are also concepts that have been repeated literally since ancient history. I've met one female narcissist who wouldn't hesitate to lie about anyone or anything in order to get her way, and triangulation is a frequent tactic employed by malignant narcissists. Malignant narcissists feed off of attention and somatic narcissists can both uphold the idea of having limitless sexual magnetism and secure narcissistic supply through allegations of rape. But these patterns hardly indicate that most rape and harassment is non-existent. They are exceptions. Most people don't have NPD. I've also met about 3 male narcissists who would do the same sorts of things in order to secure narcissistic supply via different methods. A lot of that sneaky, underhanded stuff that is done as a disproportionate reaction to a slight flows through formal policy. However, that doesn't mean that the ideas behind formal policies are wrong. I have several friends who had to recover from PTSD created by violent boyfriends, and I witness both physical and mental violence very regularly in my alley. Almost all of the violence is against women. Although, yes, it is loud and the cops do come by rather frequently, and yes, these women have to reach out for a lot of help afterward if they want to stay alive, but they have not achieved fame. In fact, they must live with the stigmas brought about by common ideas in quotes like this, and they must endure the loss of friendships due to the emotional stumbling blocks set before them. I lost a couple of friends who went into downward spirals after being stalked, being in verbally abusive relationships, being with irresponsible, dead-beat partners, etc. I have never had a straight male friend who was in a relationship like that, and I like dudes. I had one boyfriend who came close, but that was it. He was a rarity.

I have to respectfully disagree with Proxy's comment about borderline personality disorder being incurable, since I am inclined to think it too often seems to be a natural response to narcissistic abuse. It's almost always diagnosed in young women, homosexuals and racial minorities. It was a model created within a sexist society that believes things like the above quote. But I am about 70% convinced that malignant narcissism, which can be mixed with other disorders, isn't curable at this stage. That one is a disease of denial about one's own imperfections, so it seems unlikely to go away. When I meet narcissists years down the road, they are almost always up to the same old tricks (lying for the sake of lying, entitled, limited empathy, subtle put-downs, impulsive, etc.). But most people have to deal with identity crises, dependency issues, and feeling hopeless, anxious or alienated when they are young, as is often described in BPD. I have a big problem with how trendy both of these memes are becoming among middle aged soccer moms, but this isn't the time or place for that. Let me just say, I think women's studies and this shaky psychological theorizing benefit from being separately identified.

Back to the topic: saying that someone "asked for it" when they are doing what the in-group does (the rapists went to the party too, obviously, and so did a lot of random, uninvolved people) implies that the person is a mere intruder into the in-group's territory, and that the in-group, the main group in power, is entitled to control, to comment on, and to suppress signs of unsubmissiveness in the people who "should" have less power. This isn't usually a conscious process and it doesn't just happen at parties. I have to deal with this cultural attitude every day when I walk down the street without a man. If I'm with a man, I get left alone (usually). When I'm not, or when I'm with another woman, suddenly all these people who feel entitled to decide who I am, or who she is, will pop up out of the background. I've also had to deal with this at work and school. It's undeniable. Just because you haven't personally experienced it doesn't mean it isn't real. It would literally be impossible for you to have personally experienced it if you are either male or a woman who isn't capable of noticing or isn't in a position to be affected by it, and commenting on it in a casual setting when it's impossible for you to have experienced it is not a good idea.

These types of ideas, along with believing things like women are consumed with their body image and need to look a certain way, can only get one into trouble over time. You seem nice and sensible in posts that aren't about gender, so I thought I'd take time out of my day to write about it. Obesity is a problem, sure, but targeting women specifically implies an attempt to control an out-group in an unempathetic manner. I have done and written some really uninformed, embarrassing stuff in my life that I now realize invited trouble for good reasons, and as someone who has done that and will no doubt continue to do that by accident, I'm just saying... I think that holding these sorts of biases about a federally protected class of people is inviting serious trouble into your life and for good reasons. Only last semester, the entire school all took a review of what is and is not sexual harassment and what is and is not consent to have sex. If a person is not able to give a definitive "yes," such as when they are unconscious or heavily intoxicated, then it cannot be established that sexual advances are welcome. The common party and alcohol example was directly and repeatedly addressed.

Here's my bottom line: no one is entitled to tell me or my community who I am aside from me- especially not someone who literally isn't capable of experiencing what I have. There are moments in life in which we have all experienced discrimination for something, and therefore we can and should try to empathize with discriminated peoples. Power is fluid but a basic principle like this can prevent unnecessary suffering and injustice regardless of how power may shift at any point in the future. It just works best for everyone in the long run.

The fact that people who aren't women are trying to tell us who we are and who we need to be, should let you know that this is still a very serious problem in our society. I'm a tired of it, personally. In real life, I wouldn't tolerate being told that I am an "attention seeking female" or that I am acting a certain way in response to a lack of empathy, due to "hormones" or any other of a dozen common comments. You just shouldn't do it. It's trouble, and there's a pretty sensible reason why it's trouble too.

Also, people in the parking lot of my college get raped or attacked at knife-point all the time! It happened last year like 3 times! I frequently get sexual assault "warnings" with descriptions of suspects from my old college too, but people in that area are inclined to do it at gun-point.

 

[zerkalo]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I have to deal with this cultural attitude every day when I walk down the street without a man. If I'm with a man, I get left alone (usually). When I'm not, or when I'm with another woman, suddenly all these people who feel entitled to decide who I am, or who she is, will pop up out of the background. I've also had to deal with this at work and school. It's undeniable. Just because you haven't personally experienced it doesn't mean it isn't real. It would literally be impossible for you to have personally experienced it if you are either male or a woman who isn't capable of noticing or isn't in a position to be affected by iti

Yes. Thank you for writing this

 

[Seteleechete]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I don't like calling groups like the one inquisitor is referring to feminists, it's to easily mistaken with yellows version of feminism. I prefer the term SJWs(social justice warriors).

 

[redbaron]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

As for sexual assault, again it's mostly just an easy path to fame/attention for young women. Actual rape is nearly nonexistent on college campuses. Plus last time I checked, getting wasted, hooking up with a stranger, and then crying rape days/weeks/months later is 99% the woman's fault. Every time I read about one of these alleged "victims" I want to ask them: If you didn't want to have sex, why did you consume alcohol to begin with? It's the best way to impair your judgement and lower your sexual inhibitions. You could have just gone to the party and not consumed someone else's jungle juice (w/Everclear and who knows what else). It's just a big scam. But it wins political points.

This would be really funny if it was satire.

The fact that you're being serious just makes it sad flamebait.

 

[Yellow]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

@dark+matters that was beautifully said. I think fear of facing Inquisitor's kind of sneering opposition and disbelief prevents a lot of people from reporting rape, sexual battery, and physical abuse. Few children and young adults have the strength to deal with that on top of the trauma of being physically violated.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

As for sexual assault, again it's mostly just an easy path to fame/attention for young women. Actual rape is nearly nonexistent on college campuses. Plus last time I checked, getting wasted, hooking up with a stranger, and then crying rape days/weeks/months later is 99% the woman's fault. Every time I read about one of these alleged "victims" I want to ask them: If you didn't want to have sex, why did you consume alcohol to begin with?

So by that logic any intoxicated woman can be taken advantage of and it's her fault?
I heard a politician imprisoned for rape say pretty much what you did and adding "You can't rape a prostitute (as long as you pay)" He smiled and seemed pretty content with establishing that logical axiom.

I take it, men don't have to feel guilty and can teach women to take responsibility for their safety by raping them?
So your idea aligns with the doctrine that powerful people should rule over the weak, how does that contradict feminism becoming more powerful and changing things with its power.

Don't need to answer me because I know what you are going to say, this forum is not a place to mend your misconstrued idea about reality, interestingly enough I see a lot of media and populist influence in what you say, it seems there are channels you are receptive to, more than others.

 

[Minuend]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I guess this is a slight tangent, but in Norway, only 11% of women who have been raped reports it. (23% of rapes are known to the police being reported by others or other cause).

There was a big deal about this some time back, where psychologists revealed they sometimes recommend women in therapy to not report it as the process is unkind. They meet skepticism from police and court, attitudes like the ones Inquisitor hold, they risk family and friends distancing themselves. It can further break someone suffering.

Well, I'm just saying shouting rape is generally not a wise maneuver if you want attention and is far from as common as some people interneting would have you think. In a lot of cases, people will not believe you, because people tend to think it's easy to not be raped. That if you don't drink alcohol and don't dress slutty, you'll be fine. However, a large part of rapes are done by acquaintances or even spouses.

And here's how easily you can slip drugs into drinks

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTd1647CTFs

 

[Brontosaurie]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

i don't think an ideology that says "men and women are the same" is the solution to a problem of misogyny. technology and wealth is what abates prejudice.

activists don't make change. they state the obvious.

 

[Puffy]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I guess this is a slight tangent, but in Norway, only 11% of women who have been raped reports it. (23% of rapes are known to the police being reported by others or other cause).

There was a big deal about this some time back, where psychologists revealed they sometimes recommend women in therapy to not report it as the process is unkind. They meet skepticism from police and court, attitudes like the ones Inquisitor hold, they risk family and friends distancing themselves. It can further break someone suffering.

Well, I'm just saying shouting rape is generally not a wise maneuver if you want attention and is far from as common as some people interneting would have you think. In a lot of cases, people will not believe you, because people tend to think it's easy to not be raped. That if you don't drink alcohol and don't dress slutty, you'll be fine. However, a large part of rapes are done by acquaintances or even spouses.

And here's how easy you can slip drugs into drinks

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTd1647CTFs

Odd timing in that a close friend of mine was drugged and almost sexually assaulted recently, thankfully a friend intervened.

But exactly that ^. Doubt she'll report it as it won't go anywhere, she obviously can't remember anything so it's her friend's word against his. The worse thing is that the person who did it is a work colleague, so what does the victim do? Leave her job? Tell the employer and have the whole drama carry out at work? Suffer in silence? Her friend called the police as it was happening and even said the attacker had threatened him with a knife for intervening, police still didn't do anything.

Like you said though, a very typical case; I've known others very similar unfortunately. There's little point in arguing with people like Inquisitor, they clearly just have their head in the sand.

 

[The Gopher]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

@dark+matters that was beautifully said. I think fear of facing Inquisitor's kind of sneering opposition and disbelief prevents a lot of people from reporting rape, sexual battery, and physical abuse. Few children and young adults have the strength to deal with that on top of the trauma of being physically violated.

Yeah I could never say anything. (well unless the person was a millionaire, I would go through that for money )

There was a big deal about this some time back, where psychologists revealed they sometimes recommend women in therapy to not report it as the process is unkind. They meet skepticism from police and court, attitudes like the ones Inquisitor hold, they risk family and friends distancing themselves. It can further break someone suffering.

Yeah it's awful having family and friends doing that. Arguably they wouldn't be good friends and should die in a fire but either way... That said, it is the courts job to be skeptical with every crime. I would be very worried if they weren't skeptical.

Skeptical is necessary people shouldn't be easily convinced of anything without proof, sneering and biased disbelief on the other hand is a bad thing. Which is probably what you meant but you know every now and again my Ti goes THAT WASN'T ACCURATE YARRRR and I turn into a pirate. Fortunately it's not often as living with scurvy sucks.

 

[crippli]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I'm intrigued by that men don't report being raped. It's clear that it's not something a man want on his resume. Still, it's quite common, female perpetrator, and it wrecks havoc on the victims. It seems the self image of a man being raped take greater damage then the self image of a woman.

Apparently there is a bit of different reactions. Women become more introverted and wreck havoc on themselves. While men become extroverted and wreck havoc on whatever crosses their path, of course it ends up with self damage as well. According to a report. Crossover reactions will of course occur.

So men want to brake the system apart, while women want help from the system. Why don't men want help from the system when they get raped?

 

[Minuend]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

That said, it is the courts job to be skeptical with every crime. I would be very worried if they weren't skeptical.

Skeptical is necessary people shouldn't be easily convinced of anything without proof, sneering and biased disbelief on the other hand is a bad thing. Which is probably what you meant but you know every now and again my Ti goes THAT WASN'T ACCURATE YARRRR and I turn into a pirate. Fortunately it's not often as living with scurvy sucks.

Point wasn't that they shouldn't be, but that in combination with the other factors, it can take a heavy toll psychologically. And sometimes make people think less of you. That was all I was trying to say.

Whether police and court, or even friends and family should/ should not be skeptical I didn't try to comment on.

 

[The Gopher]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

I'm intrigued by that men don't report being raped. It's clear that it's not something a man want on his resume. Still, it's quite common, female perpetrator, and it wrecks havoc on the victims. It seems the self image of a man being raped take greater damage then the self image of a woman.

Apparently there is a bit of different reactions. Women become more introverted and wreck havoc on themselves. While men become extroverted and wreck havoc on whatever crosses their path, of course it end ends up with self damage as well. According to a report. Crossover reactions will of course occur.

So men want to brake the system apart, while women want help from the system. Why don't men want help from the system when they get raped?

Oh it's (partly) that whole independence/masculine social role thing. Probably also the reason males are more successful in suicide. They look to themselves for help not others. Also if less social they have less social support.

I wouldn't necessarily say they wreck havoc on the external as the suicide rates post rape are very high. However assuming they do it's probably out of a loss of power or control and confidence. These things are valued heavier. (and that isn't a bad thing, being in control of yourself and confidence with power isn't a bad thing unless it's abused or over the top)

An easy way to feel powerful at least fake powerful is to mess stuff up, exercise power over others prove that you aren't worthless and inadequate and helpless. At least that's the mindset of some in those situations you are describing.

Point wasn't that they shouldn't be, but that in combination with the other factors, it can take a heavy toll psychologically. That was all I was trying to say.

Whether police and court, or even friends and family should/ should not be skeptical I didn't try to comment on.

Yeah of course, I may have misread. Sorry about that I didn't mean to imply you thought differently.

 

[Inquisitor]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

On this single issue of gender clearly a lot of people on this forum seem to have many similar ideas that are unfortunately inaccurate. I realize I am challenging widely-held notions, but the fact of the matter is if you don't step away from your own biases, you'll never actually see reality for what it is. The reigning paradigm in our society right now is essentially support feminism, diversity, and redistributionist policies at all costs. It's true the republicans are fighting back on the latter, but all major businesses and organizations are going along with the first two. If you're a business leader and you make a public statement that women are already being paid equally for equal work, my guess is you're going to have hell to pay even though it's true. If you espouse meritocratic ideals over promoting a diverse workplace, you're going to have hell to pay. This is leading to a lot of largely unrecognized problems, namely a decline in meritocracy and overblowing pay discrimination based on gender. The latter is almost non-existent. Women have much greater career interruptions than men which accounts for the gender pay gap. Because I'm a man, I'm on the receiving end of this bs, and I'm fed up with it, and if you don't like my point of view, that's fine, but I'm not wrong as you'll see below.

I am fully conscious and aware of what I'm saying. I don't care if others don't like it. The truth is more important than promoting harmony on a forum. dark+matters' post, while eloquent, does not cite a single statistic. There's a bunch of anecdotes and parroting of stereotypes about how men are abusive and violent, but nothing about women. Of course several other posters immediately flocked to her side, which is strange to me because women are actually equally or more aggressive in relationships than men. My post about sexual assault was specifically about what happens on college campuses, not about rape in general. The following website seems to address the issue fairly, but you can be the judge.

Clark County Indiana Prosecutor's Office

I stand by what I said regarding women taking personal responsibility for their actions. It's not a cliche, it's just common sense. I don't drink alcohol, smoke, or do drugs. Women don't have to wear very skimpy clothing. They do it to gain attention/be desired. I'm not complaining! That said, it should not come as a surprise to them that some of that attention will not be pleasant 100% of the time. It's the price you pay. You don't want guys leering at you? Don't show skin. Pretty simple. If you add intoxicants to the mix and go out alone at night or with just a single friend, you're asking for trouble. There will never be a day that this is not the case. Men are hardwired to want to jump on a hot woman. They don't need to warm up, it's just an on/off switch. Like a hungry dog. But do we hear feminists/SJWs telling women to cover up? Of course not. They want women to have total freedom and also be totally safe and never have to worry about getting assaulted or molested. It's completely unrealistic, and along the way, a lot of men are being unfairly treated.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

A woman became pregnant when she was 17 and married the father because of societal/religious pressures. That man physically and emotionally abused her and her son for four years before she got away and stalked her off and on for another 7 years and abused two other women and multiple children before he died. He never spent more than a couple nights in jail, despite numerous interactions with the police and the fact that my mother (and the other women before and after her) were hospitalized multiple times.

A young girl was forced into a high school janitorial closet by two other male students and raped. My sister told me approximately 8 years after (although I had known some sort of trauma, likely sexual in nature had occurred for a long time). She and I were sexually harassed and threatened on a daily basis in our school days because our skin color and sex made us targets.

I had a friend in high school who obsessively weight trained and confided in me that she did it solely so she'd never be raped again. She was built like a marine in the end.

After I became an adult, my parents chose to foster/adopt and I've met many traumatized children through them. I've never met a fostered girl that wasn't sexually abused by an adult male in her family. Those men were seldomly incarcerated and in some instances even got the children they abused back 'legally.' About 1/3 of the boys I've known were sexually abused, with severe neglect/abandonment/drug use being more common. I was very close to one girl in particular; she is an adult now. She was completely denied access to an education for religious reasons and was prostituted by her father along with her brother who I didn't know. Her Father is a minister, he lives off of tithes, and still has custody of their little sister.

Inquisitor, I'm curious if you think the women/girls/boys in these instances are doing it for the attention or deserve what happened to them for some reason... You must live in a highly coddled and selfish universe to believe that rape and abuse does not happen to a meaningful and tragic extent.

 

[redbaron]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

You don't want guys leering at you? Don't show skin.

How about women who get raped while wearing jeans + a hoodie?

The things about safety are relevant deterrents, but carelessness on the part of the female still doesn't make rape the woman's fault. The issue goes much deeper than simply "stop being careless and you won't get raped" and it's absolutely not the woman's fault if they're raped.

If men go to bars with date-rape drugs, with the intent of raping women, do you really think that if for whatever reason every single all of the women were covered up that date rape would suddenly not happen? Sorry, doesn't work that way.

The whole issue is far more complex, and short-sighted mentalities like yours only contribute to perpetuating the cultural paradigms that simultaneously ostracize rape victims for coming forward and help people justify acts of sexual coercion and rape.

Articles:

Why Men Rape from an Evolutionary Psychology Perspective

Rape Psychology, Prevention and Impact

Impact of Negative Social Reactions on the Disclosure of Rape


Excerpt from Article #1:

"The existence of adaptations to rape does not mean that rape is inevitable or justified. Like all psychological mechanism, rape mechanisms require functioning genetic and environmental components. Rape is only predicted to occur under specific environmental circumstances that activate men's evolved psychology. Furthermore, because rape behaviours may have a genetic component does not mean that men cannot control their behaviour. Just as men thwart their evolved psychology every time they choose less calorically dense food over more calorically dense food, so too can men thwart evolved mechanisms that may otherwise lead them to sexually coerce or rape."

~

Also, food for thought. Why is it if someone goes out at night and is robbed or murdered, everyone blames the robber or murderer. But if a woman goes out at night and gets raped, suddenly it's the victims fault?

Some people have the urge to murder just as strongly as some have the urge to rape. In fact some people really are hardwired with a disposition for extreme violence, yet they receive no quarter from society at large for their actions. So why do rapists receive quarter for theirs?

 

[zerkalo]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

You don't want guys leering at you? Don't show skin. Pretty simple.

the only thing that is exceedingly "simple" here is your thought process. please read dark+matter's post again, i think she did a great job at describing the female experience.
even when i go out in over-sized clothing, no makeup and looking like shit, i still get harassed, this is also the same for all girls i know. it doesn't matter what clothes you're wearing so long as you're visibly female.

your entire post is a mess. but at this point, it has become evident that you are not willing to reconsider any of your views, so i don't see the point of replying to you anymore.

 

[Brontosaurie]

Re: What Gender Are You Internally?

Also, food for thought. Why is it if someone goes out at night and is robbed or murdered, everyone blames the robber or murderer. But if a woman goes out at night and gets raped, suddenly it's the victims fault?

it's not the victim's fault, but there are prevention measures and they may become relevant when discussing these crimes, even though a victim or someone sympathizing with a victim may take that too as victim blaming. as the debate goes now, there's a forced choice between victim blaming + pragmatic, and perpetrator blaming + idealistic. might be a local thing in radfem cosmopolitan sweden tho. maybe most people where you live are conservative twats. i understand that rape shaming is a real thing and traditionally correlates strongly with prevention advice, but they must be distinguished. we must think outside that box.

i advocate stronger rape trials and convictions if that's a possibility with regards to principles of justice and warranted by comparison with legal punishments overall, but i don't want to silence the analysis of sexual culture, including behaviors of victims, as a factor. anything that helps is valid knowledge. as for the legal treatment of rape however, the guilt is unambiguous.

 

[Seteleechete]

I think it's entirely reasonable to expect and demand more self control from people than a "hungry dog" regardless of gender. If you lack the self control to not attack someone it's your fault not the victims, even if they provoke you.

The career interruption should be payed by the state as bearing children is a societal boon. Other than that I agree that it should be based solely on merit.

 

[crippli]

I don't think the victim is blamed. But the police have too much to do, so they prefer people taking preventive measures instead of getting victimized. Or only interested in their particular interests. Probably the latter.

Sort of like, if you have a lot of money. You don't get re compensated if you write the code on the bank card. Or leave your keys in the car. Carelessness as they call it.

So one is also responsible to do what one can to prevent a crime being committed against you apparently.

My opinion is that this is just bullshit. It should make no difference if I leave my keys in the car, don't lock the housedoor. Drink myself into blackout in the ghetto. Camping naked in a prison. Or whatever else that fancies my mood.

 

[Inquisitor]

Jeez, you three (Zerkalo, red baron, Adaire) are apparently on a hair trigger. My post was about what happened on college campuses, not about rape in general. I made that abundantly clear. If you want to read more into it that that,

If you want to expand this into a bigger discussion, it is undeniable that female rape is a well-recognized social issue. Male rape is much less so. Also, I specifically take issue with the fact that feminism wants women to have 100% liberty in what they choose to wear and how they act and also 100% protection from sexual assault/rape at the same time. From a male point of view, that's never. going. to. happen. Should boys be taught to restrain themselves? Obviously. What mother is telling their sons to go out and rape women as they please? But the prevailing feminist mantra is basically, "women are free to dress and act however they please, and no matter what, men have to control themselves."

That's just not very realistic. Young men have to learn that self-restraint is essential, and that rape is evil. We're already doing a good job of this in our public schools. It's drilled into young men from a young age in sexual education class (health class, whatever). Young women, however, have to learn to dress conservatively and not flaunt their sexuality just to feel admired and wanted. It's a distraction to boys in school who already have a hard enough time (no pun intended) keeping up academically. Public schools are not telling girls this at all and basically letting them walk around in stripper outfits. There should be strict dress codes at the very least. In college it's even worse.

It's eye candy, no doubt, but it's also a net negative for society. Here's a male perspective you may not have heard on this issue: Seeing barely-clad women all day every day in middle school/high school is not an easy thing for an adolescent male with raging hormones. It inflames desire/lust and when there's no follow-through, the result is frustration. I've found women generally think this is funny/cute, but the reality is that if the pressure is not "vented" it risks leading to violence. Suddenly it's not so funny anymore is it? It gets worse when women shamelessly flirt and tease young boys because it gives them a high to feel sexually desired. It gets even worse than that when the boy is growing up in a single-parent household or a foster home. Again feminism says nothing about this, and thinks this behavior is completely fine no doubt. If you really think I'm being simple-minded here, I would invite all of you to turn the mirror back on yourselves.

The rape issue has been thoroughly discussed ad nauseam from the stance of let's crack down on men, but the other side of the coin has not been addressed very much at all, at least in mass media (from what I've seen).

 

[Seteleechete]

Males are also free to dress and act(within the law which applies to both genders) as they please. That they don't act on this freedom is irrelevant, they are allowed to and as such the same liberties should apply to females. Though you are against that as well seeing your reaction towards pride parades.

Don't try to justify female rape by saying males don't get as much attention, that is also an issue but it doesn't make the female rape issue any less relevant. And yes males should be expected to restrain themselves no matter how provocative females act, use porn to take care of any frustrations.(the symbolic age limit on porn is stupid)

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

And yes males should be expected to restrain themselves no matter how provocative females act, use porn to take care of any frustrations.(the symbolic age limit on porn is stupid)

This doesn't make sense. Provocation is a deliberate attempt at making someone react. If someone acts provocatively it's their fault for receiving negative responses.

And I don't relate it to female behaviour, but just any provocative behaviour under any circumstances. I also don't mean that reaction to provocation can justifiably be rape, it can be verbal or physical aggression nonetheless.

Age limits on porn are required, children are not prepared for these kinds of experiences and it's not a solution to rewire their brains to masturbate whenever they feel like it. Porn has harmful effects on internal biology and habits, even more so on the immature brains.

 

[Seteleechete]

Fine, I went a little overboard with that statement, react with reasonable and justifiable force to deliberate provocations. I stand by my statement about porn, I don't see the negative effects of more masturbation or developing a more active sexuality due to porn.

 

[TBerg]

This discussion does so much to remind us of the need to adhere to the liberal notion of innocence until proof of guilt. If feminists were not so dystopian in their reach into the relations between the sexes, by expanding the definition of assault to include kissing and touching for example, then men would not have to justify so much of their behavior. What the feminists want is to control the culture to such an extent that there would be nothing that contradicts their vision of female power. Such sterile environments are only attained through wholesale disinfectant of the population, which would entail massive brainwashing and massive loss of freedom in more ways than one. I am against present feminist (which is not the same thing as "equalist") notions for the same reason that I am against attainment of security in general.

 

[Seteleechete]

Again tberg that's why I much prefer the term SJWs rather than feminists. So easy to confuse present feminists with equalists. I highly dislike SJWs, political correctness and what they stand for.

 

[crippli]

So I'm looking at what the OP started with.
"You are either male (XY) or female (XX). Everything else is a mental illness."

I'm counting the votes. 22 votes. And 3crossed off the above.Then one can conclude with the quoted part of the OP as premise that either 3 or 19 have a mental illness.

It's interesting what appears if one look in the mirror.

I think the error was to bring objectivity into subjectivity. There are few tools more effective in creating delusions.

 

[zerkalo]

Say we do write off anything outside the xx/xy sphere as mental illness, the question that would naturally follow is what is mental illness?
Isnt mental illness defined as a condition that obstructs one's ability to have meaningful interpersonal relationships or hinders one's ability to have a healthy work life? How does this apply to transgenderism or homosexuality?

 

[Brontosaurie]

Say we do write off anything outside the xx/xy sphere as mental illness, the question that would naturally follow is what is mental illness?
Isnt mental illness defined as a condition that obstructs one's ability to have meaningful interpersonal relationships or hinders one's ability to have a healthy work life? How does this apply to transgenderism or homosexuality?

it's a failure of the mind to adapt to the body, specifically its sex.

mental illness mustn't be defined by sociocultural standards. the mind is a biological entity.

a transgender person can live a fulfilling life in many areas. mental illness is spectral. not all of them are inevitably and profoundly debilitating. one thing that characterizes transgender is not severity but the fact that the illness (if we are to speak of it that way) arises early in development and isn't contingent on attachment psychology, nutrition, culture etc. it's basic in a way, and it affects identity at a rather primal level, but it's not necessarily a disaster. and since it's not culturally imposed, it makes absolutely no sense to judge it in terms of deliberate behavior or susceptibility to brainwashing. i think that's the important thing to keep in mind. one may speak of illness but there are other relevant attributes that contribute to the proper assessment of phenomena across various contexts. thus transgender is in a way a mental illness, but in no way a sign of moral degradation. personally i don't think any mental illnesses should be taken that way - i'm not sure i even accept the notion of morality as currently conceived. i understand that calling transgender a mental illness sounds like an insult to transgender people, yet the error lies in judging mental illness, not in observing that transgender could qualify as a mental illness according to a quite succinct definition namely that the mind is maladapted to the organism.

mental illness is looked down upon because it's associated with criminality, poverty, chaos, pain etc and our notion of morality is deeply egoistical - personal health is attributed to good behavior, not conditions. terms should not cater to such prejudice. transgender is a mental illness and mental illness isn't the plague.

 

[Inquisitor]

Males are also free to dress and act(within the law which applies to both genders) as they please. That they don't act on this freedom is irrelevant, they are allowed to and as such the same liberties should apply to females. Though you are against that as well seeing your reaction towards pride parades.

Don't try to justify female rape by saying males don't get as much attention, that is also an issue but it doesn't make the female rape issue any less relevant. And yes males should be expected to restrain themselves no matter how provocative females act, use porn to take care of any frustrations.(the symbolic age limit on porn is stupid)

Comparing how males dress to how females (should) dress is like comparing apples and oranges. Female brains do not react as strongly to visual (sexual) stimuli as male brains. The science is solid on that. The stripping industry is 92% female apparently. Women just don't care very much if men walk around in skimpy clothing. It doesn't increase your chances very much as a man of sexual assault by a female, although it definitely may increase your odds of getting raped by another man.

Quit being a jack*ass Seteleechete. I never justified female rape. I'm tired of hearing all rape is always 100% the man's fault all the time. The underlined part is exactly the problem I'm talking about: In an ideal world, that would be true, but we live in a world with plenty of maladjusted young men and women who had shitty parents/single parents/no parents/foster parents/were abused as children, etc. To minimize the risk of rape/sexual assault, the approach needs to include both genders taking steps, not only men. The reality is feminism destroyed social norms which had been around for (possibly) thousands of years regarding female dress and behavior. The norms evolved for many reasons, but, fundamentally, one of them was the recognition that unchecked female attire/behavior sows discord.

Anyway...I'm not too concerned...I know the pendulum swings back and forth, and eventually we will go back to some of those norms because they match up more closely with what's best for everyone.

 

[crippli]

Say we do write off anything outside the xx/xy sphere as mental illness, the question that would naturally follow is what is mental illness?
Isnt mental illness defined as a condition that obstructs one's ability to have meaningful interpersonal relationships or hinders one's ability to have a healthy work life? How does this apply to transgenderism or homosexuality?

Premise states that one have a mental illness if one do not believe that XX/XY is what dictates if one is a male or a female. Clearly there is more to a man then the chromosomes. Imo a man isn't born, but grown. One can make the distinction of man/male. But in common usage, it's meaning will be the same So the premise is wrong on both aspects actually. There are XY females who have given birth to perfectly healthy children. Like every other female do. It's not given that one is XX if one have menstrual cycles. I suppose one don't know unless one test, if one care.

TGs and homosexuality will often be terrorized. This can make it challenging to have a healthy work life and meaningful interpersonal relationships. Illness can be developed by outside forces. Probably the bulk of the cases, if the person is not well. I like the definition, probably what it's judged against.

it's a failure of the mind to adapt to the body, specifically its sex.

mental illness mustn't be defined by sociocultural standards. the mind is a biological entity.

a transgender person can live a fulfilling life in many areas. mental illness is spectral. not all of them are inevitably and profoundly debilitating. one thing that characterizes transgender is not severity but the fact that the illness (if we are to speak of it that way) arises early in development and isn't contingent on attachment psychology, nutrition, culture etc. it's basic in a way, and it affects identity at a rather primal level, but it's not necessarily a disaster. and since it's not culturally imposed, it makes absolutely no sense to judge it in terms of deliberate behavior or susceptibility to brainwashing. i think that's the important thing to keep in mind. one may speak of illness but there are other relevant attributes that contribute to the proper assessment of phenomena across various contexts. thus transgender is in a way a mental illness, but in no way a sign of moral degradation. personally i don't think any mental illnesses should be taken that way - i'm not sure i even accept the notion of morality as currently conceived. i understand that calling transgender a mental illness sounds like an insult to transgender people, yet the error lies in judging mental illness, not in observing that transgender could qualify as a mental illness according to a quite succinct definition namely that the mind is maladapted to the organism.

mental illness is looked down upon because it's associated with criminality, poverty, chaos, pain etc and our notion of morality is deeply egoistical - personal health is attributed to good behavior, not conditions. terms should not cater to such prejudice. transgender is a mental illness and mental illness isn't the plague.

TG is no longer considered a mental illness, neither is fetishm and homosexuality. A few years ago it was. But no longer. They are as mentally fit as everyone else. It's a new discovery, so it may take some time before it's acknowledged everywhere.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Eh.. overall I think people seem to not understand sexuality. Or it seems like we're at a time when values on sexuality are changing. I think the crossfire/tension happens when the aggressors on both sides assert generalized notions towards the ones who don't understand the values of the other side, invertedly.

The aggressors in the camp of the older values impose their view on sexuality on the ones with newer values (who don't understand the older values), while the aggressors in the newer values camp impose their view of sexuality onto the old, or challenge it (they may or may not understand it).

I think a lot of it has to do with that region's sexuality-cultural codes though, I don't think it's right to come out and declare the US has a feminism problem- I'm not sure about the feminism that's related to the work force though, that'll probably need someone with insight into the corporate/service sector world. But aside the income details and treatment of women in the force, the issues that are rising from the colleges however I think are overblown, like Inquisitor asserts. I might be a conspiracy nut here, but I can't help but wonder if it's tied with Hilary being a candidate. The media, from what I read, seem to drag it on way too much.

But yes, this shouldn't diminish the fact that some males do 'overheckle' with their sexuality. The "thinking with your dick" types. I haven't personally heard of a female getting "sexually assaulted" (i.e. rape), but I do hear a lot of stories, personally, on how females would portray the male as the aggressor who then 'manipulated' females in some way to lead to that action. But maybe the college administration doesn't reveal it as to create stigma for the female, which might be the cause why they aren't heard of as often. I also know that guys make mistakes just as often as girls do, it's actually pretty common to hear. But one striking difference is that they don't see themselves as a victim, but rather, they lacked the judgement. Is it the new values working here or the old? Or are there such a thing as 'new' or 'old' values in the first place?- is what I want to ask.

 

[redbaron]

@Inquisitor

Hair trigger? You've already confessed that the reason you're so adamant about all this stuff is because you're so sick and tired of being socially wronged as a man. You plunge your shitty, unrelated conjecture about gender issues balls deep into every single thread about gender that crops up on the forum. Even when they're not related to what you're arguing about.

If anyone here is on a hair trigger, it's you. Now stop projecting.

My post was about what happened on college campuses, not about rape in general. I made that abundantly clear.

So all the stuff you're saying about skimpy clothes and the "hardwiring" of male brains is only relevant to what happens on college campuses? So then you admit that you'd be wrong if you tried to apply this to the rest of society?

Yeah, didn't think so.

Male rape is much less so. Also, I specifically take issue with the fact that feminism wants women to have 100% liberty in what they choose to wear and how they act and also 100% protection from sexual assault/rape at the same time. From a male point of view, that's never. going. to. happen.

Pretty sure everyone here would agree that diehard feminists are idiots.

No one here seems to disagrees that taking measures for preventing rape is a good thing.

What's being debated is whether or not "covering up" is actually a legitimate measure of prevention. Thing is, it's actually not.

Rape was still prevalent hundreds of years ago when women weren't running around in skimpy clothes, so it obviously doesn't change much.

Even today lots of people are raped wearing normal clothes, and also children, spouses and family members are raped. That's got nothing to do with skimpy clothing.

Social attitudes are what shape behaviours and the combination of dampening the responsibility on males and increasing responsibility of females only perpetuates the cycle of rape, since it legitimizes it in the minds of the perpetrator and worse than that - can severely damage and inhibit the recovery of actual rape victims. People expressing views in the way that you have is one of the biggest things that the majority of rape victims are concerned about.

https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml

There is a very real issue here. If a rape victim's biggest concern is having others find out that she was raped and the stigma that goes along with it, then there's a serious problem.

No one should be made to feel ashamed of being raped. I actually wonder if you realize that statistically speaking, you're probably speaking to people who've actually been raped in this very thread.

It's eye candy, no doubt, but it's also a net negative for society. Here's a male perspective you may not have heard on this issue: Seeing barely-clad women all day every day in middle school/high school is not an easy thing for an adolescent male with raging hormones. It inflames desire/lust and when there's no follow-through, the result is frustration. I've found women generally think this is funny/cute, but the reality is that if the pressure is not "vented" it risks leading to violence.

Rape isn't committed solely by people who're sexually frustrated, so it's a moot point.

Although you have touched on something found in this study, where rape is purported as possibly being the result of an adaptive breeding strategy whereby smaller, weaker and less attractive males resort to forced copulation because they can't manage to copulate otherwise.

Yet this still doesn't support the idea of covering up, since as noted rape is not a new phenomena, exclusive to our current society's dress codes. Even if you forced women to always wear pants all the time, rape isn't going to stop.

It gets worse when women shamelessly flirt and tease young boys because it gives them a high to feel sexually desired. It gets even worse than that when the boy is growing up in a single-parent household or a foster home. Again feminism says nothing about this, and thinks this behavior is completely fine no doubt. If you really think I'm being simple-minded here, I would invite all of you to turn the mirror back on yourselves.

Yes, let's turn the mirror shall we? As if men don't flirt with women to try and generate sexual interest as well?

Shit, I'm a guy and when I was younger most of the guys around me would cat call, flirt and borderline harass women whether they were clothed or not. Like Zerkalo said - as long as they're visibly female it doesn't make a difference. In terms of instigating encounters, men are just as shameless and flirty with women as the other way around.

The rape issue has been thoroughly discussed ad nauseam from the stance of let's crack down on men, but the other side of the coin has not been addressed very much at all, at least in mass media (from what I've seen).

Cracking down on violence by women doesn't necessitate blaming them for being raped, trivializing rape or perpetuating poorly supported ideas as if covering up will really do anything to solve the problem.

If you want to talk about violence against men, by all means do so. They're not mutually exclusive things.

 

[Inquisitor]

Spoiler

@Inquisitor

Hair trigger? You've already confessed that the reason you're so adamant about all this stuff is because you're so sick and tired of being socially wronged as a man. You plunge your shitty, unrelated conjecture about gender issues balls deep into every single thread about gender that crops up on the forum. Even when they're not related to what you're arguing about.

If anyone here is on a hair trigger, it's you. Now stop projecting.

You're boxing an imaginary adversary here. I never said or implied that men were never responsible for rape, just that they're not solely responsible all the time, yet the media clearly casts rape in that light.

So all the stuff you're saying about skimpy clothes and the "hardwiring" of male brains is only relevant to what happens on college campuses? So then you admit that you'd be wrong if you tried to apply this to the rest of society?

Yeah, didn't think so.

No I certainly don't admit I'd be wrong. The same thing holds true for the rest of society, but it's obviously more of a direct concern in schools/universities. Professionals aren't generally allowed to dress like strippers at work.

Pretty sure everyone here would agree that diehard feminists are idiots.

I certainly haven't gotten that impression. We must not be looking at the same forum!

No one here seems to disagrees that taking measures for preventing rape is a good thing.

What's being debated is whether or not "covering up" is actually a legitimate measure of prevention. Thing is, it's actually not.

Watch your assertions here. Evidence? You need to prove this is true by showing that societies that have strict dress norms for women have equal or higher rates of rape than societies that don't. Good luck with that!

Rape was still prevalent hundreds of years ago when women weren't running around in skimpy clothes, so it obviously doesn't change much.

Even today lots of people are raped wearing normal clothes, and also children, spouses and family members are raped. That's got nothing to do with skimpy clothing.

So basically women could wear a hijab or a bikini and there would be absolutely no difference in rape incidence? Don't be silly...

Social attitudes are what shape behaviours and the combination of dampening the responsibility on males and increasing responsibility of females only perpetuates the cycle of rape, since it legitimizes it in the minds of the perpetrator and worse than that - can severely damage and inhibit the recovery of actual rape victims. People expressing views in the way that you have is one of the biggest things that the majority of rape victims are concerned about.

https://mainweb-v.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml

That's true, you've got a point there...rape shaming is certainly not something I support.

There is a very real issue here. If a rape victim's biggest concern is having others find out that she was raped and the stigma that goes along with it, then there's a serious problem.

No one should be made to feel ashamed of being raped. I actually wonder if you realize that statistically speaking, you're probably speaking to people who've actually been raped in this very thread.

Possible. Unlikely. Still doesn't change my views, and I would be arguing the same thing if we were face-to-face.

Rape isn't committed solely by people who're sexually frustrated, so it's a moot point.

This is true, but I fail to see how sexual frustration automatically becomes irrelevant. It's not something that should be promoted at the very least.

Although you have touched on something found in this study, where rape is purported as possibly being the result of an adaptive breeding strategy whereby smaller, weaker and less attractive males resort to forced copulation because they can't manage to copulate otherwise.

Yet this still doesn't support the idea of covering up, since as noted rape is not a new phenomena, exclusive to our current society's dress codes. Even if you forced women to always wear pants all the time, rape isn't going to stop.

True, but will the rate stay the same or decline? My money is on the latter.

Yes, let's turn the mirror shall we? As if men don't flirt with women to try and generate sexual interest as well?

Shit, I'm a guy and when I was younger most of the guys around me would cat call, flirt and borderline harass women whether they were clothed or not. Like Zerkalo said - as long as they're visibly female it doesn't make a difference. In terms of instigating encounters, men are just as shameless and flirty with women as the other way around.

You can't compare male and female attention-seeking. Like I said before, male brains are wired differently to be more sensitive to visual stimuli. It's much more difficult for a man to be sexually aroused by a conservatively-dressed woman.

I honestly can't remember the last time I heard a man cat call. So what? If I were a woman and a man whistled at me or followed me around, I'd be flattered. If he didn't stop, or his advances were unwelcome, I would just leave the area. If that didn't work, I would just make a show of calling the cops. I've been stalked by gay guys before. It's creepy, but I don't hold it against them, they're just horny. I actually find it to be funny or vaguely flattering. Some dudes are scary-looking, but in most cases the fear is unwarranted. More than half of all rapes are committed by an acquaintance/friend.

Cracking down on violence by women doesn't necessitate blaming them for being raped, trivializing rape or perpetuating poorly supported ideas as if covering up will really do anything to solve the problem.

If you want to talk about violence against men, by all means do so. They're not mutually exclusive things.

There's no question stricter social norms surrounding dress and behavior would do much to reduce rape. It wouldn't eliminate it by any stretch. The bold is reasonable, but I can't remember ever seeing a news story on a major TV network (not an affiliate) about domestic violence/rape against men. Have you?

I don't like the current mass media agenda against men. Where to start?

First off, rape statistics are routinely overblown in the media and even by such illustrious government agencies as theCDC.

Rape and Sexual Assault
Victimization Among College-Age
Females, 1995–2013

Criminal Victimization, 2013

Here are some common themes that are apparent in most major TV networks, radio stations, newspapers, and online: Gender pay discrimination against women, sexual assault of women on college campuses, lack of female CEOs, promoting women's rights overseas, the portrayal in movies and on TV of men being dumb, boorish creatures that need women to keep them in line or as the sole means of happiness, articles about how men are "going obsolete" or "are men necessary?" In addition to all of this, there's the ubiquity of women's studies programs on college campuses but the near total lack of men's studies programs, the restructuring of the workplace to make things more female friendly by encouraging collaboration and cooperation over competitiveness, the fact that most gender-specific medical research has focused on women, White House commission on girls but none for boys. I'm just scratching the surface here.

 

[redbaron]

The article you linked reports that roughly 1/3 women and 1/4 males are victims of sexual assault. How is that an agenda against men exactly? It outright acknowledges that it happens to both sexes.

Also it's pretty well documented there's a large disparity between cases of rape and cases of reported rape. Citing report figures and saying, "this is the real world" is just sticking your head in the sand.

In any case whether or not media is "fair" doesn't warrant lashing out at rape victims. I don't discount anything you're saying about lack of support programs for men.

 

[onesteptwostep]

No the problem with statistics is that there are cultural reasons for as why some people would not report the assault. Men usually don't report them because it would be against traditional gender culture which dominates western society. Men don't need the support because they'd (I imagine) get over it in a months, (or at least a year [I mean seriously]).

You'd have to reason beyond statistics. But however, I do disagree on the point that there's an agenda against men, that's the warping the issue too much imo. (No offense)

Also, inquistor is talking something about this:

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfc3XIZ4Fo8

 

[Yellow]

Men don't need the support because they'd (I imagine) get over it in a months, (or at least a year [I mean seriously]).

Are you serious with this?

Rape is a violation of your bodily autonomy. This is not something that most people get over easily. It's especially damaging when we are younger, but it can obviously shake your world as an adult as well. To assume that men are somehow less affected by that kind of trauma is absurd.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Yeah they're affected and traumatized, I agree, but in a culture where masculinity is emphasized, that naturally means that a few of them will be traumatized for an extended length.

My point was that in terms of report, male rapes wouldn't be as prominent as female rapes, since programs have been set up for them long before already, meaning there's a cushion for the females whom have been assaulted. The stigma is arguably less for a female as well.

 

[Yellow]

You just said

Men don't need the support because they'd (I imagine) get over it in a months, (or at least a year [I mean seriously]).

which does not equal

My point was that in terms of report, male rapes wouldn't be as prominent as female rapes, since programs have been set up for them long before already...

By the way, the existence of programs does not really correlate with the number of filed police reports. Further, the number of police reports are not reflected in the rape statistics above because such data are usually gathered from anonymous medical and mental health surveys.

 

[onesteptwostep]

Well if you read the sentence before that, and then the sentences after it, then you would understand the narrative of the post.

edit: But it does seem a little saucy, I do apologize.

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because such data are usually gathered from anonymous medical and mental health surveys.

That seems like something to think about. But then again, I'm not sure whether males would go to hospitals or psychiatrists in the first place, and then reveal that. Especially if they haven't gotten over it.

 

[Sinny91]

Comparing how males dress to how females (should) dress is like comparing apples and oranges. Female brains do not react as strongly to visual (sexual) stimuli as male brains. The science is solid on that. The stripping industry is 92% female apparently. Women just don't care very much if men walk around in skimpy clothing. It doesn't increase your chances very much as a man of sexual assault by a female, although it definitely may increase your odds of getting raped by another man..

Everything you have posted thus far has made me think evil thoughts about you.
In relation to visual stimuli; I'm a highly sexually driven woman, and I'm a borderline perv when it comes to certain men in various stages of undress - including in public. But I wouldn't rape them... Do you know why? Because I'm responsible for my actions. Creep.

Quit being a jack*ass Seteleechete.

You can talk.

I never justified female rape.

Sure as hell reads like it on the screen I'm looking at.

I'm tired of hearing all rape is always 100% the man's fault all the time

.

It's 100% the attackers fault. If the attacker be male, then the male be 100% responsible.

To minimize the risk of rape/sexual assault, the approach needs to include both genders taking steps, not only men.

Preventative actions only go so far, as has been described in detail by other members here, who you are quick to dismiss.

The reality is feminism destroyed social norms which had been around for (possibly) thousands of years regarding female dress and behavior.

You mean when women were even more so repressed by men?

The norms evolved for many reasons,

Male egotism?

but, fundamentally, one of them was the recognition that unchecked female attire/behavior sows discord.

In cavemen.

Anyway...I'm not too concerned...I know the pendulum swings back and forth, and eventually we will go back to some of those norms because they match up more closely with what's best for everyone

Who ever said your thought process is 'simple' is bang on the money.