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Math Abilities Don't Add Up

pjoa09

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I suck at math.
Bad.
Really bad.
So bad, that I was degraded into simpler math classes.

It just doesn't make sense. I have spent all my life with this disability. I swear I've been trying to make sense out of SAT books and what not, but I really can't get a grip of it.

Yet, I produce all these signals that should mean I am good.

From either side of my family, my relatives have been good at math.

I am an INTP. Okay that doesn't automatically mean I am good at math but I seem to be a bit of a geek that uses his indoors free time to fiddle with Linux and learn C++ .

And all I do in C++, or could do, is design programs to solve math! ( I could do database but I am not there yet and I don't want to go there but I am going to have to go there anyways)

Yet, SAT math seems difficult and confusing! Like I need help in it I can't do it on my own.

It is ridiculous.
 

Architectonic

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What is it about math that you find difficult?

Working in a linear manner? Or not being able to see where you are going (knowing what math methods to use to solve a problem)?
Loosing track of minus signs or other symbols moving from line to line?

It does seem strange to be able to program but not do math.
 

Aramea

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I suck at math as well but I am very good with language. I am extremely good at problem-solving and rooting out solutions to real-world obstacles. There have been some others here that have said as much. I am in the IT industry but programming bored me to tears and the math would have stopped me in my tracks anyway. I love playing with Linux when a project requires it but get stuck when it comes to scripts. I turn to others for help when I need it and they usually don't mind assisting me (which is why the social graces have value as a means to an end). I think most INTPs aren't very good with seeing projects through and tend to flit from thing to thing. My problem solving ability has served me well as I didn't even realize that I was solving the problem of WTF I was gonna do for a living while I was solving it. If you aren't good at math find something else you are good at. It is much easier than forcing math skills.
 

EyeSeeCold

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The problem I have with math is working with others' implied formulas and having to figure out the premise before I can understand what is in front of me. Though once I understand someone else's system in and out, I can control it easily and with my intuition. I assume it is the same for other INTPs. This setback sucks for when you are under the pressure of time, but the advantage is obvious: creative insight after mastery.


I'm better at algorithms, data manipulation and arithmetic. Computational skills.
 

Darby

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Not to be mean or anything but I honestly don't understand how people are BAD at math, it is a simple progression of rules, you just follow the rules and you get your answer, I can understand if it is difficult to remember or define the rules, but other than that I am completely lost. I also don't think I'm "good" at math, I simply do it, and I enjoy doing it, so it makes it easier.

Man, I really apologize if that sounds condescending, I don't mean it to be at all, but am not sure how to rephrase...I suppose I am simply asking the same questions as Architectonic, only more generalized, "what is it that makes you bad at math? or what difficulties are you having?"

Oh! and also, what would be helpful if you were to ask for help in math? as in...what sorts of things are helpful when trying to understand math from someone else? This has always been a problem for me...I tend to just do it and make them feel bad instead of helping them-.-

I am curious what you mean by "premise" as in what you are looking to solve for? the question asked? or simply the supplies with which you have to solve the problem?

I am also completely terrible at languages, and real-world problems, so maybe that is the trade off, you win this time Aramea.
 

cheese

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Darby:
Well, for some people I would guess the symbols are too far removed from normal language, and too concentrated a language, for them to be able to process everything in time. Like when a kid first starts learning to read, it's very very tough and frustrating, because they have to interpret each letter one by one. Because math isn't directly connected to language, it is both unfamiliar and confusing. (Too abstract.) Perhaps if the formulae were written out in words, it would be easier for a verbally-oriented person to process. It would have to be 'talked through' instead of instantly comprehended just by seeing the symbols.

Also, at least regarding math problems, you have to actually know what steps to take. This requires comprehension, analysis and troubleshooting, and often creativity (unless you're doing structured exercises where you *know* what formulae you're meant to use). Perhaps you're very good at instantly troubleshooting, but a lot of people would get stuck for a while even at comprehension because their brain isn't properly wired for numbers and abstract symbols (yet; it's both innate ability and lack of practice I'd say). So to move from there to analysis and troubleshooting would be tedious and tiresome. And the actual working of the formulae would require concentration in a language they do not understand well and are not fluent in. Like a young child trying to write. You wouldn't think the letters in the word 'cat' are so hard to form or would take so long to write, but for them you often see their tongue sticking out, multiple erasings, sometimes tears of frustration, etc.

It's hard because it's not instant for them, the way it is for you.

Personal experience. :D


*edit
What WOULD help is talking through the problem, in a language they can understand. For most people this will be a spoken language, for other people it can help to visualise things spatially (if possible in the question), for others it might help to get their body involved in the process. For a lot of people, I think it just helps to break down the bits of the problems into common, everyday words they can understand. Perhaps for Ns it'd be just as easy if you get to the underlying principle of the problem (and show them how you worked that out, of course) and then explain to them how the formula you're going to use is the appropriate one to tackle the issue.

Define the parameters of the problem: Eg there is an unknown quantity we need to know, and we have all the information necessary except that particular quantity - even this basic step can take a while when the symbols are meaningless to the person or take a long time to wade through. In word problems, it helps to write down all the known information so they can clearly see what information is not known. (It can help to point out to some that all math questions, at least in school, involve finding out something you don't know using the information provided. This can set off a lightbulb in their heads. Or explaining that the answer is locked in a room, and you need to remember which key - ie formula - fits this particular keyhole. Sometimes analogies are just confusing though.) Once this is done, they have all their variables in hand and can set about trying to tackle the problem.

I would guess the two main problems are
1) Extracting relevant information from what is provided (comprehension), and
2) Analysing the information to determine what tricks/formulae are needed to get around the holes.

So if all you're provided with are numbers and squiggly signs, explain one by one what those mean, and how they work together, and what concept they're trying to express. Then explain what they need to do to all the numbers and symbols to get the answer.

If you've got a word problem, you'll need to reduce all the 'white noise' to the relevant quantities. (If they're more verbally-oriented, reducing is not as useful but still necessary, eventually.) Then show them how to approach the unknowns. Usually there will be several concepts needed to tackle one problem, and it will help to sort out the information and show which unknown needs to be tackled first to move on to the next bit. Simple things like explaining WHY it needs to be tackled first are very helpful.


Alright, I've gone on long enough and this is disorganised but I hope it makes sense.
 

pjoa09

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What is it about math that you find difficult?

Working in a linear manner? Or not being able to see where you are going (knowing what math methods to use to solve a problem)?
Loosing track of minus signs or other symbols moving from line to line?

It does seem strange to be able to program but not do math.

Well right now I have no helpful recollection of High School. It was basically me trying and then daydreaming till the end of class. I somewhat think if I really was able to put my ass to work then I would be able to figure it out.

Whenever I encounter a math problem I always haywire. I simply go "holy shit, what now?" and then I start sweating. I just simply can't come in look at the problem and know where to go.

I do also make many linear mistakes. I recently did an easy consecutive numbers problem easily but didn't check it properly. I was basically accusing myself of doing an easy problem that I did correctly of doing it wrong.

I suck at math as well but I am very good with language. I am extremely good at problem-solving and rooting out solutions to real-world obstacles. There have been some others here that have said as much. I am in the IT industry but programming bored me to tears and the math would have stopped me in my tracks anyway. I love playing with Linux when a project requires it but get stuck when it comes to scripts. I turn to others for help when I need it and they usually don't mind assisting me (which is why the social graces have value as a means to an end). I think most INTPs aren't very good with seeing projects through and tend to flit from thing to thing. My problem solving ability has served me well as I didn't even realize that I was solving the problem of WTF I was gonna do for a living while I was solving it. If you aren't good at math find something else you are good at. It is much easier than forcing math skills.

I am bad at language but it is funny how I am a Bi-lingual and am forced to make do with it all the time and yet somehow I don't grasp more.

I mess around with Linux mostly because it is a simple dig and deliver. It involves researching , understanding (most cases) , and then simply applying it. It does well in rewards. Like YAY! Sound Card works! Then you feel good and by the end of setting up your system you can sit back and just muse over how "you" it is and not some proprietary POS . I am not really forcing myself to do math but as I spend more time working in office I grow more introspective and start to really wonder what is wrong with me.

I deduced my situation to the point where I know people are either good with people or systems. I am not good with people and I don't seek interaction. But I sense there is an impending skill . I have seen myself get good scores and bad but more bad and I am never just alright at it. I also have a grudge with math. I have this feeling that I never quite approached it the way I should have. I was hurled right at it not intrigued or subtly aroused by it like how programming or Linux was.

The problem I have with math is working with others' implied formulas and having to figure out the premise before I can understand what is in front of me. Though once I understand someone else's system in and out, I can control it easily and with my intuition. I assume it is the same for other INTPs. This setback sucks for when you are under the pressure of time, but the advantage is obvious: creative insight after mastery.


I'm better at algorithms, data manipulation and arithmetic. Computational skills.

I tend to make quite a few mistakes during computation but I have noticed a certain pitch I need to reach with a topic before I can completely break in and be able to use it in anyway I desire.

On certain suprising instances, Khan Academy has actually taught me a lot better than my teachers ever could. (not really suprising but still!)



I am just confused at how upfront aroused by everything involving math (even physics! I sucked but still) and yet when it comes to doing math raw I feel overwhelmed.

The more time I spend away from it the more I wonder why gravity pulls towards something that doesn't quite exists.
 

Darby

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Darby:
Well, for some people I would guess the symbols are too far removed from normal language, and too concentrated a language, for them to be able to process everything in time. Like when a kid first starts learning to read, it's very very tough and frustrating, because they have to interpret each letter one by one. Because math isn't directly connected to language, it is both unfamiliar and confusing. (Too abstract.)

This actually makes quite a bit of sense, although I don't remember learning to read, I imagine it wasn't easy, and I've also been doing math A LOT since I can remember. When I was little my mom was taking algebra at the community college and had these videos we called "magic hands" because it was just a professors hands floating over a sheet of paper with a droning voice explaining all the things going on, and although I didn't understand what was going on, I guess it may have made me used to seeing math things.

I also find math comforting in a weird way, and do math puzzles to calm myself down, and it's also the one thing I feel has a solid foundation, where I know if I try hard enough I will find the answer, and it does exist, every other subject is too wishy-washy for me, too ambiguous, even the sciences-.-. I can see why not doing this could make it difficult and unfamiliar.

I will work on translating mathy things into not so mathy things, I like analogies, they are my favorites, although what you said about them seems to be something that comes up a lot for me, they just sort of get lost in all the not exact-ness of it.

YAY! Sound Card works! Then you feel good.

Yes! But math can give the same rewards! like after you finish a particularly frustrating problem which you had to use many tools and math tweaks to solve, and then you can be like "Fuck yeah math problem! I figured it out, you are no match for my brain!" although occasionally I get the "Wow....I should have figured this out a loooooong time ago." and those aren't as fun..
 

pjoa09

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Not to be mean or anything but I honestly don't understand how people are BAD at math, it is a simple progression of rules, you just follow the rules and you get your answer, I can understand if it is difficult to remember or define the rules, but other than that I am completely lost. I also don't think I'm "good" at math, I simply do it, and I enjoy doing it, so it makes it easier.

Man, I really apologize if that sounds condescending, I don't mean it to be at all, but am not sure how to rephrase...I suppose I am simply asking the same questions as Architectonic, only more generalized, "what is it that makes you bad at math? or what difficulties are you having?"

Oh! and also, what would be helpful if you were to ask for help in math? as in...what sorts of things are helpful when trying to understand math from someone else? This has always been a problem for me...I tend to just do it and make them feel bad instead of helping them-.-

I am curious what you mean by "premise" as in what you are looking to solve for? the question asked? or simply the supplies with which you have to solve the problem?

I am also completely terrible at languages, and real-world problems, so maybe that is the trade off, you win this time Aramea.

EXACTLY! That is what I am wondering about. I wonder how am I bad at math at all! The more time I spend thinking about my shitty days with math the more I wonder "what the fuck was that all about?". I am starting to think I was either unintentionally warded away from math (I had a lot of pressure to do well with arithmetic and spent a lot of my time daydreaming and not doing homework) or I have some chemical missing.

If I am not ranting I am pretty much structural and concise. Too concise, I get bad grades because of it. (I don't know how you do a big introduction without the details)

I make a lot of careless mistakes mostly.

Maybe I will give it another shot with Barron's SAT Guide. The CollegeBoard one sucks as they never give any proper practice. You are doing problems from the Practice Test and you get no explanation.

It is also weird that I am starting to spend more time intrigued with math when I am away from it.
 

pjoa09

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This actually makes quite a bit of sense, although I don't remember learning to read, I imagine it wasn't easy, and I've also been doing math A LOT since I can remember. When I was little my mom was taking algebra at the community college and had these videos we called "magic hands" because it was just a professors hands floating over a sheet of paper with a droning voice explaining all the things going on, and although I didn't understand what was going on, I guess it may have made me used to seeing math things.

I also find math comforting in a weird way, and do math puzzles to calm myself down, and it's also the one thing I feel has a solid foundation, where I know if I try hard enough I will find the answer, and it does exist, every other subject is too wishy-washy for me, too ambiguous, even the sciences-.-. I can see why not doing this could make it difficult and unfamiliar.

I will work on translating mathy things into not so mathy things, I like analogies, they are my favorites, although what you said about them seems to be something that comes up a lot for me, they just sort of get lost in all the not exact-ness of it.



Yes! But math can give the same rewards! like after you finish a particularly frustrating problem which you had to use many tools and math tweaks to solve, and then you can be like "Fuck yeah math problem! I figured it out, you are no match for my brain!" although occasionally I get the "Wow....I should have figured this out a loooooong time ago." and those aren't as fun..

But there isn't such thing as grading in Linux. In math someone is always going to look at that work and grade you. Careless mistakes will take their toll.
 

Darby

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O, well I don't do any of the math homework, I just do the tests.

Outside of tests I rarely do school work, it's just projects, papers, and tests, "homework" can go die in a hole. When I do do it, it's because i didn't do well enough on the tests. But then I make up math problems for myself anyhow, I find doing it because I am told to is frustrating and generally a waste of time. It's mostly repetition.

Math for me becomes fun when I'm learning, so I'm constantly doing interesting things I find in the book that may be chapters ahead or behind where we are supposed to be, and then creating my own problem for myself that takes the ideas posed for that chapter but doesn't necessarily have it's answer in the book.

About being concise don't worry about it, I can barely write more than a page or two about ANYTHING, even if I'm interested and know a bit about the subject. Math isn't something I do for school, or to get a good grade, I do it to get it right, and to try and find new ways of solving problems. Whether I can show that to the person grading is irrelevant to me.

One thing I definitely have trouble with in math is mistakes, the wrong sign here, inputting the wrong value there, but mistakes can be fun, they can help you reevaluate how you think and where to check next time, and always be confident in your answer, however wrong it may be, because you more than likely got it right, or awfully close, and it can be fixed easily.
besides, i really hated it when my classmates kept asking me if they got it right...I don't know! I followed the same process you did, I got the same answer, but it doesn't make it right, like religion.

I don't know if this is right for everyone, but math is a lot of learning simple rules, and then applying them all over the place. especially in places that seem irrelevant to where you learned it. The people I have talked to about their difficulties in math appear to have problems with this, learning something in one area of math, and applying it in another.

I just think that math is meant to be fun, as absurd as that may sound. The idea that the Mandelbrot set is a 2-D graph of a 4-D elaboration of a simple equation is amazing. Fractals in general are amazing. as well as simple geometric shapes, or the rotation of squares in squares. Game Theory (which I know very little about), Probability, Randomness, Geometry, Physics, there's so much you can do with math!

You did say that being interested in things with math isn't the problem though (perhaps it's because EVERYTHING has math), but I definitely think that it should be approached as a fun, but challenging way to approach something, and to familiarize yourself with it,. It is really quite simple, but you need to know all the rules before you play the game.

SUMMATION: Just do it outside of school, find something you enjoy, find a way math applies, see if you can make a problem for yourself, and if you have difficulty because there are too many unknowns, fill some in with values, classes always help to fill in gaps of understanding.

But doing it by CHOICE I think is the most important, I'm currently doing one that has to do with a substance flowing into a cone with a dome on it, and then having that object slowly empty, and depending on the rates,, how long it will take to fill the cone-dome. I decided to start with a simple shape, but eventually i may move on to something more complicated.

I'm in a basic calculus course at the local community college now, but I've taken integral Calc already in HS, and my friend is in Multi-Variable at OSU, so I'm learning a lot through him also. IMO Algebra is the only thing really necessary before Pre-Calc, Geometry and Trig are good, but they end up explaining it all in Pre-Calc anyways.
 

Agent Intellect

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What kind of math are you bad at? This summer I'm taking Calculus 1 & 2 and Statistics, and they couldn't be much more different.

Best advice I can give is try to learn it on your own instead of having someone teach it to you. It's done wonders for me. I'm not exceptionally gifted at math either, but I've gotten all A's in my college math courses so far by this method.

One drawback is that I needed to buy another math book for my calculus class with additional problems, because I end up doing all my homework before class and have nothing to practice afterwards. The stupid textbooks have only the answers to odd problems, and there is no sense in practicing a problem if you can't check to see if what you did is correct.
 

Aramea

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Not to be mean or anything but I honestly don't understand how people are BAD at math, it is a simple progression of rules, you just follow the rules and you get your answer, I can understand if it is difficult to remember or define the rules, but other than that I am completely lost. I also don't think I'm "good" at math, I simply do it, and I enjoy doing it, so it makes it easier.

Man, I really apologize if that sounds condescending, I don't mean it to be at all, but am not sure how to rephrase...I suppose I am simply asking the same questions as Architectonic, only more generalized, "what is it that makes you bad at math? or what difficulties are you having?"

Oh! and also, what would be helpful if you were to ask for help in math? as in...what sorts of things are helpful when trying to understand math from someone else? This has always been a problem for me...I tend to just do it and make them feel bad instead of helping them-.-

I am curious what you mean by "premise" as in what you are looking to solve for? the question asked? or simply the supplies with which you have to solve the problem?

I am also completely terrible at languages, and real-world problems, so maybe that is the trade off, you win this time Aramea.

Well ... I am good with some math, ie geometry, probability, risk analysis and basic calculus. The calculus I took in college was business math and I did well. As I think about it, the problem solving math is easy for me because I like problem solving. Makes sense.

My early education got messed up and I was behind by the time I got to high school. I ended high school at Algebra II while my classmates on Trigonometry. I have not so much as cracked a Trig book and have little knowledge of what the signs mean. As an adult, I didn't want to catch up.

In short, I think "bad at math" for some means they don't like it. For INTP personalities that pretty much means they won't do it unless they have to.
 

Dimensional Transition

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I detest pretty much all kinds of maths, except calculating chances and economic calculations... Just... shit that's handy, not meaningless formulas, they annoy me.
I detest pretty much all kinds of maths because I'm bad at them, though. Unless I have a REALLY GOOD, VALID REASON as to why I should make certain calculations, I won't be actually able to learn them. It's like my brain just refuses to memorize techniques/to work a little harder if the subject seems useless.

Don't get me wrong though, math is pretty cool. Just not my thing, it only pisses me off when I, personally have to calculate something or whatever. It's amazing to see what others can do with math... Sometimes :D
So yeah, I know how you feel.
 

ummidk

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Not to be mean or anything but I honestly don't understand how people are BAD at math, it is a simple progression of rules, you just follow the rules and you get your answer, I can understand if it is difficult to remember or define the rules, but other than that I am completely lost. I also don't think I'm "good" at math, I simply do it, and I enjoy doing it, so it makes it easier.

Man, I really apologize if that sounds condescending, I don't mean it to be at all, but am not sure how to rephrase...I suppose I am simply asking the same questions as Architectonic, only more generalized, "what is it that makes you bad at math? or what difficulties are you having?"

Oh! and also, what would be helpful if you were to ask for help in math? as in...what sorts of things are helpful when trying to understand math from someone else? This has always been a problem for me...I tend to just do it and make them feel bad instead of helping them-.-

I completely agree. Math is so easy, if you can remember all the rules it's simple. Granted for SAT this can be hard because there are lots of rules, but in like normal math class its pretty simple in my opinion. For me personally, on standarized tests I can usually use the rules I do remember and logic to figure out the ones I don't completely remember to figure them out. Also for SAT it's multiple choice so it's hard to make a dumb mistake except maybe a negative because you can easily check most of them (Making dumb mistakes is often why I lose points lol).
 

Phoenix

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I was always good at math (except geometry). I would often play with the numbers and symbols in my head, and try to come up with my own formulas.

When posed with a new problem, I would solve it using "conventional" means, then see what steps of the formula could be combined or omitted to produce a better process of getting the same answer. After I had what I considered to be a better way of doing things, I would apply it to the next problem and record the answer; then use the conventional method for the same problem. If the answers matched consistently (I would usually check 3 or 4 times), I would commence using the formula I came up with from that point onward.

Math teachers loathed me for this: I never showed my work. My grades suffered because of it, even though my answers were correct (many of my teachers allocated 20 or so points to showing how the answer was arrived at). My reply was always "I did it in my head."

Sadly, I have forgotten most of my formulas--a fact that made itself apparent when I took the college placement test 4 years out of high school.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: find a way to make it fun for you, and math will be a lot less of a chore.
 

Darby

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meaningless formulas

Mellivar's Avatar is my face right now.

I do have to admit that at the moment I see no real world applications for most of the stuff I'm doing now, at this very moment, I hope that one day I can maybe do some work in physics...I really don't want to be a math teacher...

Math teachers loathed me for this: I never showed my work. My grades suffered because of it, even though my answers were correct (many of my teachers allocated 20 or so points to showing how the answer was arrived at). My reply was always "I did it in my head."

This reminds me of a time I had my parents called in in elementary school because of my lack of work-showing. I would always write something along those lines, this time i had written "I used my brain." except, when I said that, the teacher said "Well, yes, I'm sure you did, however, I would have given you full credit if you hadn't written "I used my Bran." So much for that I guess.

I was also never very good at Geometry either, but I found Trig to be a cinch. I'm not really sure how they are related since I didn't take the former, I skipped it. All I remember that was from Geometry was Soh Cah Toa, which now is almost completely meaningless to me, but I still hold onto it.
 

Legion

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I too am terrible at math. Mostly because I make stupid small mistakes or forget formulas a couple of days after I learn them. I make up for it with my abilities in English and grammar. Surely you also have a strong field, even if you don't realize it yet.
 

Vrecknidj

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Some responses to observations in the thread.

1) I know several INTPs who "suck at math."

2) Many math teachers are INTPs (yes, even the ones who get mad when you don't show your work).

3) INTPs, as a rule, hate to practice things, one of the reasons why homework is such a hindrance to so many of them.
 

pjoa09

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O, well I don't do any of the math homework, I just do the tests.

Outside of tests I rarely do school work, it's just projects, papers, and tests, "homework" can go die in a hole. When I do do it, it's because i didn't do well enough on the tests. But then I make up math problems for myself anyhow, I find doing it because I am told to is frustrating and generally a waste of time. It's mostly repetition.

Math for me becomes fun when I'm learning, so I'm constantly doing interesting things I find in the book that may be chapters ahead or behind where we are supposed to be, and then creating my own problem for myself that takes the ideas posed for that chapter but doesn't necessarily have it's answer in the book.

About being concise don't worry about it, I can barely write more than a page or two about ANYTHING, even if I'm interested and know a bit about the subject. Math isn't something I do for school, or to get a good grade, I do it to get it right, and to try and find new ways of solving problems. Whether I can show that to the person grading is irrelevant to me.

One thing I definitely have trouble with in math is mistakes, the wrong sign here, inputting the wrong value there, but mistakes can be fun, they can help you reevaluate how you think and where to check next time, and always be confident in your answer, however wrong it may be, because you more than likely got it right, or awfully close, and it can be fixed easily.
besides, i really hated it when my classmates kept asking me if they got it right...I don't know! I followed the same process you did, I got the same answer, but it doesn't make it right, like religion.

I don't know if this is right for everyone, but math is a lot of learning simple rules, and then applying them all over the place. especially in places that seem irrelevant to where you learned it. The people I have talked to about their difficulties in math appear to have problems with this, learning something in one area of math, and applying it in another.

I just think that math is meant to be fun, as absurd as that may sound. The idea that the Mandelbrot set is a 2-D graph of a 4-D elaboration of a simple equation is amazing. Fractals in general are amazing. as well as simple geometric shapes, or the rotation of squares in squares. Game Theory (which I know very little about), Probability, Randomness, Geometry, Physics, there's so much you can do with math!

You did say that being interested in things with math isn't the problem though (perhaps it's because EVERYTHING has math), but I definitely think that it should be approached as a fun, but challenging way to approach something, and to familiarize yourself with it,. It is really quite simple, but you need to know all the rules before you play the game.

SUMMATION: Just do it outside of school, find something you enjoy, find a way math applies, see if you can make a problem for yourself, and if you have difficulty because there are too many unknowns, fill some in with values, classes always help to fill in gaps of understanding.

But doing it by CHOICE I think is the most important, I'm currently doing one that has to do with a substance flowing into a cone with a dome on it, and then having that object slowly empty, and depending on the rates,, how long it will take to fill the cone-dome. I decided to start with a simple shape, but eventually i may move on to something more complicated.

I'm in a basic calculus course at the local community college now, but I've taken integral Calc already in HS, and my friend is in Multi-Variable at OSU, so I'm learning a lot through him also. IMO Algebra is the only thing really necessary before Pre-Calc, Geometry and Trig are good, but they end up explaining it all in Pre-Calc anyways.

Truly helpful. Doing math on my own frees so much of rigidity that I would have with tutors and the methods they learned for granted.

I have calculus books as well and I would hopefully get through to them after I understand SAT math.

I guess I had a very chaotic math education that caused me to repel from its roots.
 

Phoenix

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Many math teachers are INTPs (yes, even the ones who get mad when you don't show your work).

Forgive my curiosity, but how did you come to this conclusion? Given the fairly large amount of teachers in the world, and the fairly low percentage of INTPs worldwide; your statement seems somewhat arbitrary.
 

Darby

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Truly helpful. Doing math on my own frees so much of rigidity that I would have with tutors and the methods they learned for granted.

I have calculus books as well and I would hopefully get through to them after I understand SAT math.

I guess I had a very chaotic math education that caused me to repel from its roots.


I use stumbleupon a lot, and have math tagged as one of my interests, so I find things all over the place. I will link some of it if I can.

I found this a few hours ago:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=octonions-web-exclusive

and this is a Calc textbook that I stumbled for free a long time ago, but never managed to read:
http://www.math.byu.edu/~smithw/Calculus/
 

terraxceles

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pjoa09

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wow.
 

Words

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You probably just need a little boost. INTP's are good at things that they prefer doing: being curious. There's a lot to be curious about Math. There will be a time where you will be curious about math.

..happened to me, though, my motivation was more on the exchange of ideas as oppose to the subject itself.
 

digital angel

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The problem I have with math is working with others' implied formulas and having to figure out the premise before I can understand what is in front of me. Though once I understand someone else's system in and out, I can control it easily and with my intuition. I assume it is the same for other INTPs. This setback sucks for when you are under the pressure of time, but the advantage is obvious: creative insight after mastery.


I'm better at algorithms, data manipulation and arithmetic. Computational skills.


Have you worked math problems on your own? If so, how did you do?

With respect to tests or being under time constraints, do you think practicing would help?
 

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As long as we're sharing helpful links:

I don't know if mine were meant to be helpful, just interesting, the first one i admit i barely understand, but multiple dimensions is always exciting.

I am glad that i have helped, or so you say Pjoa09, but I'm just saying that I am a selfish creature who has his own ends (primarily getting other people to enjoy math so I have someone to talk to).
 

EyeSeeCold

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Have you worked math problems on your own? If so, how did you do?

With respect to tests or being under time constraints, do you think practicing would help?

By "on my own" do you mean approaching a math problem out of my own interests and not for a class? If so then no.

On time constraints, like I said, it's about understanding the premise and the formula. They just throw you a math construct complete with abstract symbols and expect you to solve it, but I prefer directions. So I have to find out the inputs and outputs and work at it functionally. But by the time I figure this out, I've already spent too much time.

Here is an example of what I mean:


Three men stay at a hotel, in the same room. The room is thirty dollars and each man pays ten. The manager gives the bellhop five dollars and tells him to give each man one dollar back. So each man paid 10 - 1 = 9. 9 x 3 = 27. Add the 2 dollars the bellhop kept and you have 29. What happened to the remaining dollar?

That's the problem.


A difference in operations, it's logically flawed.

There was $35 in total.
$30 goes to the hotel
$3 goes to the men
$2 goes to the bellhop

I completely ignored the logical relationships and just took the total amounts of data involved and identified the exchanges. Algorithms.
 

pjoa09

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Three men stay at a hotel, in the same room. The room is thirty dollars and each man pays ten. The manager gives the bellhop five dollars and tells him to give each man one dollar back. So each man paid 10 - 1 = 9. 9 x 3 = 27. Add the 2 dollars the bellhop kept and you have 29. What happened to the remaining dollar?

That's the problem.

I can only speak for the manager, he was fired. If he kept the 30 dollars he wouldn't have had to pay the bellhop guy.

It isn't add 2 dollars its minus 2 dollars because the manager earned 27 and then he had to spend 2 dollars for the bellhop guy and now he is making 25 dollars instead.

he wasted two bucks and is now 5 bucks short of what he was supposed to have.

So really he lost 5 dollars and there is no last dollar bullshit.
 

pjoa09

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I don't know if mine were meant to be helpful, just interesting, the first one i admit i barely understand, but multiple dimensions is always exciting.

I am glad that i have helped, or so you say Pjoa09, but I'm just saying that I am a selfish creature who has his own ends (primarily getting other people to enjoy math so I have someone to talk to).

no doubt.

Everyone has their own means and I'd still awfully prefer talking about math than having my head hurled through 2 tonnes of repetitive math.

I never understood why practice makes perfect, it makes you forget. You forget the sole existence of the problem and why it sits in front of you.
 

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I never understood why practice makes perfect, it makes you forget. You forget the sole existence of the problem and why it sits in front of you.

I'm not really sure either, I never practice anything, but I also can't play an instrument, or play sports very well, so there you go.
The only thing I make sure to do is listen, and pay attention. I really enjoy learning in general, but as soon as we start to repeat anything, I immediately start to lose focus. I'm pretty good at retaining ideas, but lose details, but since math is a lot of rules, not necessarily the direct steps taken, I do alright with it. I often end up doing things my own way because I couldn't remember the "right way" to do something, which aggravated many of my early algebra/calc teachers.
 

JoeJoe

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he wasted two bucks and is now 5 bucks short of what he was supposed to have.

So really he lost 5 dollars and there is no last dollar bullshit.

The way I first heard of the problem, the bellhop is supposed to give all 5 dollars back to the men but he doesn't know how to divide 5 by 3.
 

Darby

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The way I first heard of the problem, the bellhop is supposed to give all 5 dollars back to the men but he doesn't know how to divide 5 by 3.

yeah, this is what I understood, there was some sort of discount for $5 and instead of giving the full $5 back, he kept $2 and gave each $1.
 

Minamimoto

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The problem I have with math is working with others' implied formulas and having to figure out the premise before I can understand what is in front of me. Though once I understand someone else's system in and out, I can control it easily and with my intuition. I assume it is the same for other INTPs. This setback sucks for when you are under the pressure of time, but the advantage is obvious: creative insight after mastery.


I'm better at algorithms, data manipulation and arithmetic. Computational skills.

This is also me. They put these formulas in front of me, and it makes no sense until I see how they got it. I'm not one for memorizing and mindlessly applying formulas; I must know how and why.

Ahaha, yes, I am also one to neglect homework of any form. Being in mostly advanced classes, this poses a problem for my grades. Needless to say, my INTJ mother wants to strangle me.
 

ummidk

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This is also me. They put these formulas in front of me, and it makes no sense until I see how they got it. I'm not one for memorizing and mindlessly applying formulas; I must know how and why.

Ahaha, yes, I am also one to neglect homework of any form. Being in mostly advanced classes, this poses a problem for my grades. Needless to say, my INTJ mother wants to strangle me.

I'm the same way So i just figure out why they work then apply them =/, makes it easier to remember too.
 

Duke

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Has anyone in this thread mentioned Khan academy yet? Look it up, "google" it. It's free, and contains everything a k-12 student+beyond should know in nice VERY articulate and easy to follow videos. Do yourself a favor and relaly check it out. It has everything from preschool math to differential equations, physics to chemistry, economics, finance... if you can comprehend all the lessons on the site you'd be ... definitely a standout. I'm not in school right now and so I use it to brush up on various math and physics.
 

pjoa09

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Has anyone in this thread mentioned Khan academy yet? Look it up, "google" it. It's free, and contains everything a k-12 student+beyond should know in nice VERY articulate and easy to follow videos. Do yourself a favor and relaly check it out. It has everything from preschool math to differential equations, physics to chemistry, economics, finance... if you can comprehend all the lessons on the site you'd be ... definitely a standout. I'm not in school right now and so I use it to brush up on various math and physics.

Yeah I mentioned it earlier, he teaches way better than every teacher I have had.

I was using his videos until I realized that by the time I am done learning I wouldn't have anything to practice with so I went on to BARRON.

They aren't that good and they offer 'tactics' that make me uncomfortable.
 

pjoa09

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ok I have a retarded question regarding system of equations.

y=x+1, y=x+2 are rearranged to -x+y=1 and -x+y=2

they seem to solve at (0.5,1.5) according to my math.

i must've fucked up but I don't see any mistakes yet.

The lines shouldn't intersect right?

If I multiply -x+y=1 by -1 then I can eliminate everything and wind up with just 1.
 

Darby

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ok I have a retarded question regarding system of equations.

y=x+1, y=x+2 are rearranged to -x+y=1 and -x+y=2

they seem to solve at (0.5,1.5) according to my math.

i must've fucked up but I don't see any mistakes yet.

The lines shouldn't intersect right?

If I multiply -x+y=1 by -1 then I can eliminate everything and wind up with just 1.


If I'm reading this right, they should be parallel. So yes, they don't intersect.

y=X+1, y=X+2:
(X+2)=X+1:
(X+2)-X=X+1-X:
2=1:
WTF
 

pjoa09

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If I'm reading this right, they should be parallel. So yes, they don't intersect.

y=X+1, y=X+2:
(X+2)=X+1:
(X+2)-X=X+1-X:
2=1:
WTF

The way I do it is :
-x+y = 1
-x+y = 2
------------
2y=3, y= 3/2

nuff said.

Going on would be ludicrous because I did and ended up with x = 1/2

Which is impossible.

Yours however does make sense because it doesn't make sense.

I think my method sucks.
 

Darby

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The way I do it is :
-x+y = 1
-x+y = 2
------------
2y=3, y= 3/2

nuff said.

Going on would be ludicrous because I did and ended up with x = 1/2

Which is impossible.

Yours however does make sense because it doesn't make sense.

I think my method sucks.


well you are looking for where they intersect, yes?

because then you are only looking for where they equal, which means that y=X+1=y=X+2(this is improper notation)
but since the y's are singled out, you just cancel them, and you get
X+1=X+2
but then, you subtract X from both sides(since that is pretty much the only operation available)
and you get 1=2, which is improper and would explain why if you looks a the slopes (the coefficients of X) they are the same, and why the lines should be parallel.

I think I understand how you got 2y=3(after getting rid of the negative X, you added the two equations), but I'm not sure that's how you're supposed to do it.

also, at the point where you got -x+y=2, -X+y=1, you can see that both the first parts are the same, and if you are looking for a point of intersection(a single common point), then you can assume you're X's and Y's are the same, and they would disappear, giving 1=2 again.

I should make note that both of my processes have to do with setting the equations equal to each other and cancelling, so if I'm doing it wrong once, both ways I did it are wrong.
 

pjoa09

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well you are looking for where they intersect, yes?

because then you are only looking for where they equal, which means that y=X+1=y=X+2(this is improper notation)
but since the y's are singled out, you just cancel them, and you get
X+1=X+2
but then, you subtract X from both sides(since that is pretty much the only operation available)
and you get 1=2, which is improper and would explain why if you looks a the slopes (the coefficients of X) they are the same, and why the lines should be parallel.

I think I understand how you got 2y=3(after getting rid of the negative X, you added the two equations), but I'm not sure that's how you're supposed to do it.

also, at the point where you got -x+y=2, -X+y=1, you can see that both the first parts are the same, and if you are looking for a point of intersection(a single common point), then you can assume you're X's and Y's are the same, and they would disappear, giving 1=2 again.

I should make note that both of my processes have to do with setting the equations equal to each other and cancelling, so if I'm doing it wrong once, both ways I did it are wrong.

Yours is correct.

Turns out that I need to make any one modification to the equation before adding or subtracting.

In this case multiplying anything with -1 . It would've lead to the Xs and Ys being cancelled out and leaving 1=2 or 2=1 which is the correct false answer
 

pjoa09

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