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Is the notion of "patriarchy" falsifiable, given a state of relative freedom?

Grayman

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@Grayman

Well for the male to have achieved that 'retirement fund' he most likely had to rely on the female for emotional support, food, company, and etc.

Emotional Support: I generally don't expect to pay for my relationships.
Food: I know a lot of good restaurants that wont take my retirement.
Company: I do have friends and they don't require my retirement to be my friend.


I think that half my retirement is worth my kids having a mom there for them 24/7. Other than that I expect my wife to work just as she expects me because otherwise we are taking advantage of the other person and that isn't fair to either of us. In this circumstance she will get her retirement because she saved up for it even if we separate.
 

onesteptwostep

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Emotional Support: I generally don't expect to pay for my relationships.
Food: I know a lot of good restaurants that wont take my retirement.
Company: I do have friends and they don't require my retirement to be my friend.


I think that half my retirement is worth my kids having a mom there for them 24/7. Other than that I expect my wife to work just as she expects me because otherwise we are taking advantage of the other person and that isn't fair to either of us. In this circumstance she will get her retirement because she saved up for it even if we separate.

If the female saved up money for herself and has some work experience I think that'd be fair game.

But I think in general cases where the female (the wife, rather) is a typical stay at home wife who's been raising the kids for 18-20 years needs to receive that kind of fiscal package.

Although it's fair to raise the point that relationships, 'food' and "company" could be derived from source elsewhere, the point still is that the male had relied on the female to build his retirement fund, whether he wanted it to be that way or not. If he hasn't relied on the female, I'm not sure why he married in the first place. Oh and not to mention I'd probably question his sexuality, though that's obviously another issue altogether. :cthulhu:
 

Grayman

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But I think in general cases where the female (the wife, rather) is a typical stay at home wife who's been raising the kids for 18-20 years needs to receive that kind of fiscal package.

I would agree but she or he should work or do something when the kids get older other than clean house for a bit. Preferably they would go back to school and then establish a career in case their spouse passes away and he/she needs an income to survive and sustain the household and feed the children. Death insurance is temporary sustenance.

If he hasn't relied on the female, I'm not sure why he married in the first place. Oh and not to mention I'd probably question his sexuality, though that's obviously another issue altogether. :cthulhu:

Sounds like your are insinuating that he should pay for her retirement because she gave him sex for 20 years... joke?
 

onesteptwostep

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When I mean 'relied on' I typically mean emotional support, which comes in all sorts of forms. Sex is one of those elements, but no, I'm not saying that she should receive payment because of 'sex'. In a way that's sort of like prostitution.

I guess to illustrate my point better: who cleans the house, does the laundry, cooks the food, takes care of the bills, so that the breadwinner can actually go out there and win the bread?

The meat of my post was more this:

'Although it's fair to raise the point that relationships, 'food' and "company" could be derived from source elsewhere, the point still is that the male had relied on the female to build his retirement fund, whether he wanted it to be that way or not.'
 

Grayman

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'Although it's fair to raise the point that relationships, 'food' and "company" could be derived from source elsewhere, the point still is that the male had relied on the female to build his retirement fund, whether he wanted it to be that way or not.'

I agree as long as I don't have to supply her with emotional support and comfort because otherwise she wouldn't be providing me anything more than I am providing her.

Seriously. All that is give in take on both sides. The others stuff... A few meals and a little cleaning doesn't equate to 8+ hrs of labor.
 

Yellow

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I forgot all about this. Here are some studies. Keep in mind that I was commenting on study-browsing I did in 2001-2002.

1982 - Men as viewed as more credible
1985 - Women are only seen as credible if they can argue their points
2001 - Men hold more influence in dominant forms of communication
2007 - An article from a random website referencing some couple research, but I can't find the research now.
Ah, here we are,

Sellers, J.G., Woolsey, M. D., & Swann, W. B. Jr. (2007). Is silence more golden for women? Observers derogate effusive women and their non-effusive partners. Sex Roles, 57, 477-482. doi: 10.1007/s11199-007-9277-2

But this couldn't have been the study I came across, since I would have had to time-travel to read it.

(hey cool! this lady and her colleagues have done a number of studies on testosterone and personality.)
2012 - Another article linking to three Yale studies I can't actually view online talking about how women in positions of power are socially pressured to talk less than men.
 

The Gopher

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Hey not sure what post the studies were linked to but while that sucks I feel like playing devils advocate here with the first two.



ESTP
Well men are more credible in general so of course I see them as more credible.

ESTJ.
Of course I find "men" more credible. At least in my field. Not to say females are less credible statistically however if the ratio of men is 95 to 5 then I have much more information to work with and judge men with. If I have 95 men who all have had similar experiences to me and are in the same field I can very accurately gauge how good or bad or credible they are. If I have 5 females I can normally pick out one above the rest and the others I need to find out. It's statistical familiarity not necessarily patriarchy.

INFP
You don't UNDERSTAND! Men aren't seen as credible in childcare industries they are seen as pedophiles! You would trust us (females) much more in that area so obviously you're a horrible person who hates equality and only focuses on one side. (I joined the INFP facebook accidentally, stay way)

ISTJ
Well all my fellow women are idiots so I can understand that.

/end devils advocate.

We all know there are thousands of reasons or possibilities for everything. Even aside from that almost any study I find no doubt Proxy could find a counter study.

Which is why while what you and Munk do is great when it comes to actually arguing and actually backing it up that doesn't necessarily make either of you right which I'm saying purely for the benefit of anyone who may think that. (as a hypocrite who has never posted a study in his life I feel like it should be done more often)
 

kora

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Oh god no plz not this thread again
 

Yellow

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Hey not sure what post the studies were linked to but while that sucks I feel like playing devils advocate here with the first two.

We all know there are thousands of reasons or possibilities for everything. Even aside from that almost any study I find no doubt Proxy could find a counter study.

Which is why while what you and Munk do is great when it comes to actually arguing and actually backing it up that doesn't necessarily make either of you right which I'm saying purely for the benefit of anyone who may think that. (as a hypocrite who has never posted a study in his life I feel like it should be done more often)
I think I made relatively few contributions to this thread. Anyway, I only posted these because I anecdotally mentioned some studies I had come across like 15 years ago. Then both Higs and 420 mentioned wanting to see them. I agreed to look for them and then forgot.

Then I remembered and posted them here.

To be perfectly honest, I only spent about 5 minutes looking, and got bored.

As to using studies, anyone can make any claim. But unless you have some kind of support like common knowledge, empirical studies, or historical references, or your opinion is seen as some kind of authority, there's no reason for your claims to be considered. If you have no reason for your claims to be considered, there's no point in making them.

I'd kinda be interested in seeing how a discussion here would go if everyone had to include evidence for every claim they made.
 

The Gopher

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I'd kinda be interested in seeing how a discussion here would go if everyone had to include evidence for every claim they made.

That sounds like a thread idea. We would need to pick a controversial but not too controversial topic (or somehow leave it open) with the stipulation that every post or maybe if we only want to see the crazy's post every statement has to have at least one piece of evidence.
 

Minuend

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I'll just edit in this quote as it wasn't entirely clear what I replied to, especially since a post sneaked in between while I was writing mine.

I'd kinda be interested in seeing how a discussion here would go if everyone had to include evidence for every claim they made.

All debates would turn into "this is why your sources are unreliable" or "god, don't you see they have an agenda they're trying to push" instead of discussing the topic. Which could be interesting in some cases, I guess.
 

The Gopher

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All debates would turn into "this is why your sources are unreliable" or "god, don't you see they have an agenda they're trying to push" instead of discussing the topic. Which could be interesting in some cases, I guess.

Well if the sources were unreliable and have an agenda to push and your sources are fine then you win by default! Okay not really. Maybe it's illogical to hope.

You know there was supposed to be an end to that sentence/paragraph but I'm tired and it's fitting anyway.
 

Inquisitor

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That sounds like a thread idea. We would need to pick a controversial but not too controversial topic (or somehow leave it open) with the stipulation that every post or maybe if we only want to see the crazy's post every statement has to have at least one piece of evidence.

That's the INTJ forum in a nutshell. God those people are uptight. Very smart though. They demand evidence for everything if something goes against their beliefs.
 

Grayman

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Discussing what is creditable evidence and what is enough evidence to accept something true would make a good thread.
 

420MuNkEy

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I forgot all about this. Here are some studies. Keep in mind that I was commenting on study-browsing I did in 2001-2002.

1982 - Men as viewed as more credible
1985 - Women are only seen as credible if they can argue their points
2001 - Men hold more influence in dominant forms of communication
2007 - An article from a random website referencing some couple research, but I can't find the research now.
Ah, here we are,

Sellers, J.G., Woolsey, M. D., & Swann, W. B. Jr. (2007). Is silence more golden for women? Observers derogate effusive women and their non-effusive partners. Sex Roles, 57, 477-482. doi: 10.1007/s11199-007-9277-2

But this couldn't have been the study I came across, since I would have had to time-travel to read it.

(hey cool! this lady and her colleagues have done a number of studies on testosterone and personality.)
2012 - Another article linking to three Yale studies I can't actually view online talking about how women in positions of power are socially pressured to talk less than men.
I think this point was already raised and addressed earlier in the thread. The fact women are taken less seriously just points to sexual dimorphism, as both men and women both take women less seriously on average. Its universality suggests something other than socially constructed sexism is to blame.

All debates would turn into "this is why your sources are unreliable" or "god, don't you see they have an agenda they're trying to push" instead of discussing the topic. Which could be interesting in some cases, I guess.
I already rather explicitly set out my criteria for acceptable evidence earlier in the thread, which was then promptly ignored. I've addressed, in more detail than they deserved, wikipedia as a source and a feminist blog as a source.
 

Yellow

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I'll just edit in this quote as it wasn't entirely clear what I replied to, especially since a post sneaked in between while I was writing mine.



All debates would turn into "this is why your sources are unreliable" or "god, don't you see they have an agenda they're trying to push" instead of discussing the topic.
True. Though agendas of researchers is never an actual concern. Either the data is there in a reproducible way or it isn't. If a shitty study does somehow get through a reputable review board, it will annoy enough people to produce a backlash of studies to refute the claims.

The real problem comes in when people take blogs and pop magazines' (like Scientific American) study syntheses as the actual study. Or when they don't understand the difference between a poll and a peer-review. I cited a few blogs referencing studies above, but I was pretty open about my shame in not locating the actual cited studies.

As a side note, Wikipedia actually is a decent source of basic information. It's certianly more reliable than most other types of nonresearch articles (unless the topic is really fringe).
 

420MuNkEy

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As a side note, Wikipedia actually is a decent source of basic information. It's certianly more reliable than most other types of nonresearch articles (unless the topic is really fringe).
On some things, sure. Though, I'd be far more inclined to take what it says at face value on a topic like Bra-ket notation than I would rape statistics in the US (which I addressed earlier in the thread).
 

Ex-User (9086)

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As to using studies, anyone can make any claim. But unless you have some kind of support like common knowledge, empirical studies, or historical references, or your opinion is seen as some kind of authority, there's no reason for your claims to be considered. If you have no reason for your claims to be considered, there's no point in making them.

I'd kinda be interested in seeing how a discussion here would go if everyone had to include evidence for every claim they made.
I don't see this working well.

What about new ideas, new suggestions or intuitions that many people have? Often it's useful to hear someone's reasoning or experience behind their claims and then test or find sources separately.

There's quite few studies on less popular topics and for many questions one can't find the appropriate scientific results.

I think it would ultimately stifle the discussion and not much new would be said, or people would reiterate existing theories.

Personally I can't be bothered to look for sources most of the time so I either rely on logical reasoning or amalgamating various facts and things already said in the thread, or what I can intuit.
True. Though agendas of researchers is never an actual concern. Either the data is there in a reproducible way or it isn't. If a shitty study does somehow get through a reputable review board, it will annoy enough people to produce a backlash of studies to refute the claims.
So many unknowns. Which boards are reputable, who makes them reputable, how can you tell a study is reproducible (sometimes you can sometimes you can't), there are many research results too fresh to have been verified independently or applied etc.

So in the end, relying on many studies would be very much lacking in confidence when adding a clause (I post this and this to back this claim, note however that this is a new study or that no one else checked if it's true or not).

There is opportunity in allowing people to openly make their cases and use whatever resources at their disposal to make them convincing, reasonable or interesting. It helps spark new ideas, perspectives or find mistakes/controversies that weren't available in the discourse before. I agree that certain sources are ridiculous and better left unmentioned.

I think it could work as a formal debate where requirements are clear from the onset, but I haven't seen any such debates started in ages here. Seems to generate very little interest.
 

kora

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I think this point was already raised and addressed earlier in the thread. The fact women are taken less seriously just points to sexual dimorphism, as both men and women both take women less seriously on average. Its universality suggests something other than socially constructed sexism is to blame.
.

*irresistibly gets sucked back into thread*
So the sexual dimorphism entails that instinctively women are taken less seriously? Interesting. Would you care to clarify? Give a hypothesis or something? If not don't worry.
 

Grayman

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*irresistibly gets sucked back into thread*
So the sexual dimorphism entails that instinctively women are taken less seriously? Interesting. Would you care to clarify? Give a hypothesis or something? If not don't worry.

It's their long hair. Anyone with long hair obviously doesn't respect the importance of efficiency over appearance. How could you possibly trust someone who cares more about perception than practicality?
 

kora

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Haha well damn. If only there wasn't this sexual dimorphism in humans whereby women are born with un-cuttable long hair :D.
 

Grayman

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Haha well damn. If only there wasn't this sexual dimorphism in humans whereby women are born with un-cuttable long hair :D.

No, but their minds were programmed from birth to defend their hair length and this programming is cemented in puberty. Woman have had long hair since the beginning. Consider the Sumerians. http://ishtargates.tumblr.com/post/112180018046/above-a-sumerian-female-headdress-reconstructed

The woman have elaborate hair and hats in many of the statues and images.
Consider egypt and china too. This exists outside of culture itself and therefore must be a product of woman brain wiring. This wiring makes then more often impractical.
 

kora

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Lulz
 
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