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INTPs bodies and subtypes

read my post first; I'm more:


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Ex-User (8886)

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Hi.



Some time ago I read about INTPs subtypes on socionics. Despite prons or cons of socionics, let's talk about INTPs and their body types.
I observed two options from my INTPs friends: more ectomorph or more endomorph. Simplier: some INTPs are fat, some not.

I'm skinny medium high guy with wide shoulders and chest (mesomorph-ectomorph I would say), and my friend is more endomorph.

There are pictures:

me:
[BIMG]http://i.imgur.com/yM8gMYb.jpg[/BIMG]

my friend: (center one)
[BIMG]http://i.imgur.com/4TThw5l.jpg[/BIMG]

Socionics said, that there are two subtypes: logical (more endomorph) and intuitive (ectomorph)

http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=ILI_subtypes

Logical:
The logical subtype makes an impression of a self-confident, sober-minded, rational person. Most often he is courteous, demonstrates a critical turn of mind and possesses a sense of humor. He smiles frequently but his smile seems somewhat monotonous and set. He tries to be polite, therefore doesn't always voice all of his thoughts and observations. Likes to subject things to analysis. Sometimes he seems haughty and derisive. Skeptical, ironic, and mistrustful. Trusts more in figures and facts than in hastily drawn conclusions. A good rationalizer; he is able to discern the main points and avoid engaging in tasks and projects that are futile in his opinion. Most often his figure is heavy-set and pycnic. His gait is usually quick, movements are purposeful and resolute. May actively gesticulate while speaking. Appears somewhat gusty and impulsive, but usually holds himself with integrity and calm dignity.

Intuitive:
The intuitive subtype seems balanced, calm, and even slow. Possesses well-developed figurative and associative thinking. Reads a lot and is given to contemplation and reflection. Likes to converse at length, narrating something on various subjects or retelling something which he has previously read. In conversation he is usually tactful, polite, somewhat reserved, tries to avoid being overly direct and critical. Frequently he feels suppressed and dissatisfied by something – either by his state of health, or by being in poor spirits, or due to some other cause. He rarely discusses his problems with others and holds himself somewhat at a distance. Internally he is rather timid, contradictory, and vulnerable, although he tries not to show this. His movements are fluid and unhurried. Sometimes his figure is tall and lanky, other times it is proportional, but he always seems calm and filled with a sense of his own value. His gait and movements are smooth, may be somewhat swinging and wavering.

What are your observations? I find this very accurate, especially to me and my friend.
 

Jennywocky

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

There's a wide variety. I'm an endomorph, probably, and am more intuitive. I'm not really big on trying to draw comparison between body build versus personality, I just really haven't noticed a connection, I have found it to be largely inaccurate.

Personality might impact how physically active someone is (as if you are spending your time doing cerebral/creative things, that's time you're not spending being physically active), but that does not really impact bone structure.
 

dair

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

The whole encto/endo/meso-morph thing has been loooooooong debunked.
 

Sinny91

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

I'm mesomorth, where's my poll option??
 

Inquisitor

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

Manipulator INTp in socionics is an MBTI INTJ. There's no connection here.

As for body constitution and type, INTPs are universally ecto/meso. Endomorphic INTPs do not exist. Body shape is not a reliable way to distinguish between somatotypes due to widespread obesity epidemic. Women have more body fat than men. Thus they may falsely believe themselves to be endos when they are in fact meso or even ecto. The quickest way to type yourself is by looking at ear location on the side of the head. The best is through a proper Ayurvedic diagnosis.
 

Fukyo

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

Manipulator INTp in socionics is an MBTI INTJ. There's no connection here.

As for body constitution and type, INTPs are universally ecto/meso. Endomorphic INTPs do not exist. Body shape is not a reliable way to distinguish between somatotypes due to widespread obesity epidemic. Women have more body fat than men. Thus they may falsely believe themselves to be endos when they are in fact meso or even ecto. The quickest way to type yourself is by looking at ear location on the side of the head. The best is through a proper Ayurvedic diagnosis.

This again?
 

Haim

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

I find all of this to be complete bullshit,first the body type category,second is the connection of brain to body structure.
If the second is true,then the first is just a result of more or less physical practise,which type does not prevent you from doing,but just a statistical figure,like smart people go to university,the university did not make them smart and smart people don't necessarily go to university.
 

Alias

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

I'm very ectomorphic. I've always been rather tall, and weight gain hasn't been a thing, let alone a problem for me. With my composition, I'm great at running.

I don't see how there are absolutely no endomorphic INTPs.
 

redbaron

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

I found this chart that doesn't make sense but it's good for starting arguments.



With my composition, I'm great at running.

I'm better. I once held a world record on a Quake3 speedrun map. You'll never strafejump like me :cat:
 
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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

So is mesomorph the average of the other two? average weight and average height?
Tbqh though im an angel and angels don't have body types
 

computerhxr

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

I can't tell probably skinny (ectomorph) but I think maybe the mesomorph. I haven't been able to type anyone else that I know as an INTP so I don't know any others. Can't decide if I'm intuitive or logical.

Why is the skinny dude so tall?! :confused:
 

Jennywocky

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

I found this chart that doesn't make sense but it's good for starting arguments.

It looks like a space cadet hat with a pretty yellow gem in the front of it.
 

Inquisitor

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Let's settle this issue once and for all.

I propose finding an example of a famous INTP that we all agree is in fact an INTP. Also do the same for an INTJ and ISTP. The individuals in question must have high resolution photos available on line.
 

redbaron

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We're gonna settle this once and for all!

Sample size: 1.
 

Reluctantly

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All body types are fat chubs

Lose weight fatties
 

Alias

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All body types are fat chubs

Lose weight fatties

That reminds me of that one dude on our forum who went around unnecessarily enforcing anti-fat stuff like he was insecure. And he never responded to anyone.
 

Alias

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Re: INTPs bodys and subtypes

I'm better. I once held a world record on a Quake3 speedrun map. You'll never strafejump like me :cat:

I've run at high speeds while bashing people to death with a bat pretending to be a Bostonian pretending to be Che Guevara in a game that stemmed from Quake.
 

DrSketchpad

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Genuinely curious:

What is argument for the connection between the body/face shape and individual psychological makeup/type?

It's got to be interesting if there is one, but I can't take it seriously atm.
 

Inquisitor

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Genuinely curious:

What is argument for the connection between the body/face shape and individual psychological makeup/type?

It's got to be interesting if there is one, but I can't take it seriously atm.

The gist of what I'm saying is that the body does not develop independently of the mind. If you have a certain body type, you necessarily also must have a certain psychological type. I make no mention of "face shape," but there are no endomorphic INTPs just as there are no ectomorphic INTJs.

The idea is thousands of years old. Ayurveda recognized 16 psychological types (coincidence?) long ago correlated with 7 physical constitutions. Those 7 can be roughly correlated with Sheldon's somatotypes as follows: ectomorph, mesomorph, endomorph, ecto-meso, ecto-endo, meso-endo, and ecto-meso-endo (mix of all three in equal proportions). I am currently doing research on this topic as a hobby. For now, you'll have to content yourself with these articles that give a more long-winded explanation of what I just said:

COMPARATIVE STUDY OF PERSONALITY WITH AYURVEDIC PRAKRITI

Understanding personality from Ayurvedic perspective for psychological assessment: A case

Triguna as personality concept: Guidelines for empirical research

Concept of personality: Indian perspective

and the best one:

Concept of Personality Type in West and in Ayurveda
 

DrSketchpad

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The gist of what I'm saying is that the body does not develop independently of the mind. If you have a certain body type, you necessarily also must have a certain psychological type. I make no mention of "face shape," but there are no endomorphic INTPs just as there are no ectomorphic INTJs.

The idea is thousands of years old. Ayurveda recognized 16 psychological types (coincidence?) long ago correlated with 7 physical constitutions. Those 7 can be roughly correlated with Sheldon's somatotypes as follows: ectomorph, mesomorph, endomorph, ecto-meso, ecto-endo, meso-endo, and ecto-meso-endo (mix of all three in equal proportions). I am currently doing research on this topic as a hobby. For now, you'll have to content yourself with these articles that give a more long-winded explanation of what I just said:

COMPARATIVE STUDY OF PERSONALITY WITH AYURVEDIC PRAKRITI

Understanding personality from Ayurvedic perspective for psychological assessment: A case

Triguna as personality concept: Guidelines for empirical research

Concept of personality: Indian perspective

and the best one:

Concept of Personality Type in West and in Ayurveda


Thanks that's actually interesting.

I haven't read the links ATM, but here's my initial thought:

What if this implied something about attraction/type as well. I mean what if, because attraction is based on the perception of useful traits, and also, the development of mind/body is correlated, then there's a more causal link between the three?
 

Inquisitor

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Thanks that's actually interesting.

I haven't read the links ATM, but here's my initial thought:

What if this implied something about attraction/type as well. I mean what if, because attraction is based on the perception of useful traits, and also, the development of mind/body is correlated, then there's a more causal link between the three?

I'd say there might be something to that as well, although from what I've read, there's not that much connection. I think physical attractiveness is more about proportions. There's a specific waist-to-hip ratio for example that men tend to find most attractive.

Beyond that, vata (ecto) type people are more likely to be emaciated, and women will tend to look much less "fertile" if you know what I mean. Likewise for men because they'll tend to look weaker/more frail. Don't know if it makes sense to extrapolate further.
 

Alias

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there are no endomorphic INTPs just as there are no ectomorphic INTJs.

I'm not sure about that. I know an INTJ who's like 7 foot 1, no joke. Guy's a giant, and one of the most certainly INTJ people I've met. He isn't exactly skinny though.
 

Inquisitor

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I'm not sure about that. I know an INTJ who's like 7 foot 1, no joke. Guy's a giant, and one of the most certainly INTJ people I've met. He isn't exactly skinny though.

Right exactly. Ectomorph does not equal tall. You can have short ectomorphs and tall endomorphs. Again, ear placement doesn't lie.
 

Alias

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Right exactly. Ectomorph does not equal tall. You can have short ectomorphs and tall endomorphs. Again, ear placement doesn't lie.

Yeah, that's what I thought. I kind of asked a question, but I was wondering about things like that. Small scrawny people thus seems to be short ectomorphs.
 

QuickTwist

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lel
 

JimJambones

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INTP brains feed off all surrounding tissue until one is left with only a brain in a vat.
 

Brontosaurie

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Genuinely curious:

What is argument for the connection between the body/face shape and individual psychological makeup/type?

It's got to be interesting if there is one, but I can't take it seriously atm.

It's probably a bit like:

More muscle and bone: higher preference for hunt and war.

More tits and ass: higher preference for child-rearing

It could be like this:

More closely spaced eyes - higher preference for artisan craft or detailed inspection

Bigger mouth: higher preference for initiating a laughter or other pleasant communion

Those are simplistic basics. I believe many subtle and intricate correlations are to be found. Not saying these two are true.

Then there are the trait reinforcing social effects of looks, which Yellow brought up recently.
 

QuickTwist

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welcome back, quick, welcome back

You know you have something going for you in a community when all you say is "lel" and people know exactly where you are coming from.
 

Reluctantly

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That reminds me of that one dude on our forum who went around unnecessarily enforcing anti-fat stuff like he was insecure. And he never responded to anyone.

Oh, heh, I missed this post. lol, I don't know who you're talking about, but that's kind of funny.
 

WALKYRIA

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I found this chart that doesn't make sense but it's good for starting arguments.
Cool chart, not in terms of repreentation of reality but because it shows clear trends.
Did anyone not notice?

1° Introverts and intuitives tended to be endomorph or ectomorph ( thus the extremes) and that extroverts tended to be of normal build.
2° Feelers tended to be more fat(endomorph), thinkers more lanky(ectomorph)? Have you heard about the stereotype that fat people tended to be nicer and more tolerant but dumber and smart people thiner because of the over-activity of the brain... although correlation doesn't equate causation, this somehow confirms the stereotype :p
3° The most unpredictable types( per MBTI but also per this diagram), thus the most balanced are also the ones that don't have a definite tendency. They are in the middle because they could look like anyone... in other words, Extroverted intuitives.( ENJ, ENP)


thus conclusion: fat people tend to be feelers, smart people tend to be thin, averaged bodybuilded poeple tend to be average personality types such as sensors.


I won't diverge from the rule... I'm a tall and falsely skiny dude.(I'm pretty musculare actually, but this was predicted...) :D:D:D
 

Jennywocky

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Three people in my gaming group are INTPs by every definition of the word... and they're all thicker-set and overweight. One of my best friends is a male INTP who is also shorter like the others and thick-set.

On this forum, it seems like a decent amount of the members are taller and lankier... but we also have a larger percentage of non-US members. So nationality and their gene pools are likely being represented as well. There's a multiplicity of factors involved in weight; for example, I'd expect Self-Preservation instinctual variants to be more careful about their calorie intake and managing food resources, resulting in a different built.

... again, this stuff seems to be crap. There are better ways to figure out someone's type that their physical build.
 

Inquisitor

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... again, this stuff seems to be crap. There are better ways to figure out someone's type that their physical build.

True, but constitution automatically invalidates someone from being a certain type. If your friends seem very INTP-ish to you and are "thick-set," they are not INTPs. Actually, there are quite a few ISTJs out there that at first blush seem to be like INTPs in terms of not emoting much and being into geeky things, but if you dig a little deeper, you'll find they are not the same. ISTJs are universally endomorphs.
 

Intolerable

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The funny thing about personality vs body is that you need to separate the mind from the body. While the two make us who we are, it does not act as one all the time!

This means your mind will want to do things your body often isn't up to doing. So sometimes you need to listen to your body.

What does this mean for personalities and bodily care? I think it means quite a bit. Personalities that don't lean so much on intuition will probably feel less inclined to personal care. It may be controversial but I think a lot of our intuition stems from the body. In some primordial, subconscious signaling way.

As an INTP I know I spend a great deal of time reading product labels and making sure I don't overdose sugar and salt. I know I have a limit even if my mind doesn't care. There is something else there telling me to stop.

Of course if you are an INTP but your intuition registers lower than normal I suppose you could be less concerned with what your body is telling you.

Then you have people who are naturally round. I don't think personality makes them care less. INTPs who are naturally round probably care quite a bit that they are. It would only make sense.
 

Inquisitor

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The funny thing about personality vs body is that you need to separate the mind from the body. While the two make us who we are, it does not act as one all the time!

Everything functions as a whole. There is absolutely zero separation between the mind and the body. The two oldest medical traditions on the planet (Chinese medicine and Ayurveda) both take this as a given.

This means your mind will want to do things your body often isn't up to doing. So sometimes you need to listen to your body.

True. But that doesn't mean they are separate entities, only that your desire to do certain things does not match up with what is good for your body. Ironically, endomorphic people are prone to weight gain and yet really enjoy eating. What they need for balance, however, is actually vigorous exercise, the one thing that they don't particularly enjoy. Conversely, ectomorphs (INTPs are included in this group) are prone to excessive mental activity and corresponding catabolism and yet enjoy stimulating activities like video games, browsing the web for hours on end, consuming media in all forms, etc....What they need for balance is meditation and a calming/grounding routine.

What does this mean for personalities and bodily care? I think it means quite a bit. Personalities that don't lean so much on intuition will probably feel less inclined to personal care. It may be controversial but I think a lot of our intuition stems from the body. In some primordial, subconscious signaling way.

As an INTP I know I spend a great deal of time reading product labels and making sure I don't overdose sugar and salt. I know I have a limit even if my mind doesn't care. There is something else there telling me to stop.

Of course if you are an INTP but your intuition registers lower than normal I suppose you could be less concerned with what your body is telling you.

You are concerned like most INTPs about maintaining "inner control" due to Ti. One of the ways this can manifest is through being very careful about the food you eat. INTJs do not have this problem, and actually suffer from binge-eating in times of stress as well as intemperance in consuming all manner of rich, sweet foods.

Then you have people who are naturally round. I don't think personality makes them care less. INTPs who are naturally round probably care quite a bit that they are. It would only make sense.

Read this post.
 

QuickTwist

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Hi everyone,

I am mesomorph and I am ISFP.

Thanks for listening to me.
 

Intolerable

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Everything functions as a whole. There is absolutely zero separation between the mind and the body. The two oldest medical traditions on the planet (Chinese medicine and Ayurveda) both take this as a given.

There is separation. In the physical sense of the word even. Your mind communicates with your body through nerve impulse that must travel some distance. Distance creates a gap in time. That gap in time allows for differences of perception.

I would argue that because there is a difference ( however slight ) between the mind and body that they are separate entities. That ancient medicine has ruled them the same seems more a matter of convenience than anything else. It appears that we're a single entity on the surface of things when in reality we are a many combination of things rolled together for a brief period of time.

Perception is the ruling factor in this. The distance and subsequent time that creates a difference in perception may not be significant in other discussions but I believe it is here.

True. But that doesn't mean they are separate entities, only that your desire to do certain things does not match up with what is good for your body. Ironically, endomorphic people are prone to weight gain and yet really enjoy eating. What they need for balance, however, is actually vigorous exercise, the one thing that they don't particularly enjoy. Conversely, ectomorphs (INTPs are included in this group) are prone to excessive mental activity and corresponding catabolism and yet enjoy stimulating activities like video games, browsing the web for hours on end, consuming media in all forms, etc....What they need for balance is meditation and a calming/grounding routine.

It could be interpreted that I am actively fighting my own mind when I want that last bite of pie. The truth is I am fighting with the impulses from my stomach to consume that last bite of pie. The mind is the broker to the body yes, but the origin of the impulse matters. That it did not originate in the mind means it was not created in the mind.

It is a subtle distinction.

You are concerned like most INTPs about maintaining "inner control" due to Ti. One of the ways this can manifest is through being very careful about the food you eat. INTJs do not have this problem, and actually suffer from binge-eating in times of stress as well as intemperance in consuming all manner of rich, sweet foods.

That makes sense but I was referring to the possibility that someone could be both an INTP and a endomorph body type.



I'm not sure what I'm gleaning from this post.
 

Inquisitor

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There is separation. In the physical sense of the word even. Your mind communicates with your body through nerve impulse that must travel some distance. Distance creates a gap in time. That gap in time allows for differences of perception.

I would argue that because there is a difference ( however slight ) between the mind and body that they are separate entities. That ancient medicine has ruled them the same seems more a matter of convenience than anything else. It appears that we're a single entity on the surface of things when in reality we are a many combination of things rolled together for a brief period of time.

Where is the barrier between mind and body? Point it out. You can't because it doesn't exist. Distance is not a barrier. The nervous system is one big network and extends throughout the whole body. There are plenty of other physical barriers such as blood-brain, nephron, skin, bladder, digestive tract, etc. but you won't find this in the nervous system. Know that both Ayurveda and Chinese medicine place the "seat" of consciousness in the heart, and both view the mind-body as a single unit. They don't assert this out of convenience either. Not even sure what that means. Those systems of medicine are purely empirical.

It's fairly self-evident too. Various foods affect the mind differently, and mood affects the body. If you drink alcohol, the effect is systemic and not limited to the mind. On the other hand, if you're stressed/anxious, that's going to raise your cortisol and blood pressure, which in turn have numerous damaging effects on the body in the long run. See Robert Sapolsky's excellent documentary regarding stress.

If you want to speculate otherwise, you're entitled to your opinions, but that's all they are.

Perception is the ruling factor in this. The distance and subsequent time that creates a difference in perception may not be significant in other discussions but I believe it is here.

huh?

It could be interpreted that I am actively fighting my own mind when I want that last bite of pie. The truth is I am fighting with the impulses from my stomach to consume that last bite of pie. The mind is the broker to the body yes, but the origin of the impulse matters. That it did not originate in the mind means it was not created in the mind.

It is a subtle distinction.

No. Desire for food beyond what is needed for adequate nourishment is called "craving" and it's rooted in the mind, not the stomach. Your speculations go against the scientific research that's been done on this.

That makes sense but I was referring to the possibility that someone could be both an INTP and a endomorph body type.

It's not possible.

I'm not sure what I'm gleaning from this post.

You must not have read my earlier posts. The way to tell if someone is ecto/meso/endo is through ear placement. That post I linked to explains this in more detail. The other posts higher up reference the Ayurvedic view concerning personality and physical constitution.

You're free to disagree of course.
 

Yellow

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Since this endokaphamesopittaectovata concept has been brought up, I've spent a few minutes here and there trying to figure out my body type.

It's just that when you look at examples of body types, they always have the endomorphs pudgy and without definition. So if you have the lady bumps and are still on the lower end of the normal weight range, it's confusing. Looks like I'm a lowfat blueberry endomorph.

When I realized that my INTJ was an ectomorph, I saw the differences. I'm thin, sometimes even scrawny, but I can't be called bony. My bones only stick out in the knobby places. With him, though he arguably has just as much "meat on his bones" as I do, just seems more bony. He looks skinny, even now that he's finally putting on a little weight (he just turned 34.. it was only a matter of time, considering how he eats).

Also, how are we supposed to tease out whether we are more logical or intuitive? They go together.
 

JimJambones

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Average height, small-medium bone frame size, average weight, BMI 21-22, bony pelvis, chicken legs, overbite, poor eyesight, mole on the bottom of one foot, slight scoliosis, asthma and allergies, stooped shoulders, high arches, and a knob on the back of my cranium. Not type related.
 

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Where is the barrier between mind and body? Point it out. You can't because it doesn't exist. Distance is not a barrier. The nervous system is one big network and extends throughout the whole body. There are plenty of other physical barriers such as blood-brain, nephron, skin, bladder, digestive tract, etc. but you won't find this in the nervous system. Know that both Ayurveda and Chinese medicine place the "seat" of consciousness in the heart, and both view the mind-body as a single unit. They don't assert this out of convenience either. Not even sure what that means. Those systems of medicine are purely empirical.

I never mentioned a barrier. That is a straw man. I said distance. I know that distance is not a barrier. What I would represent distance as is synonymous with time. It doesn't block anything it just delays everything.

Ancient medicine is well.. ancient. 5,000 years ago it may have seemed like putting an arrow through the heart of a man killed him dead. However his mind would live on for a brief period until he lost consciousness. About 20 seconds for consciousness and 3-4 minutes for all brain activity to cease. He would not be able to communicate with you and his eyes may be glazed over ( no activity in that department ) but something in his mind is still working. At least until the true end of life has been reached.

There is no conceivable way for them to have known this. That is why I would call it convenient. It is the same reason the Earth was once believed to be flat. If you don't have evidence on hand to know the entire truth the most convenient thing to do is to go on what you know. Which is what they did.

It's fairly self-evident too. Various foods affect the mind differently, and mood affects the body. If you drink alcohol, the effect is systemic and not limited to the mind. On the other hand, if you're stressed/anxious, that's going to raise your cortisol and blood pressure, which in turn have numerous damaging effects on the body in the long run. See Robert Sapolsky's excellent documentary regarding stress.

If you want to speculate otherwise, you're entitled to your opinions, but that's all they are.



huh?



No. Desire for food beyond what is needed for adequate nourishment is called "craving" and it's rooted in the mind, not the stomach. Your speculations go against the scientific research that's been done on this.
This is another straw man. I did not state that the mind drew cravings from the body. I know that the body offers no input on craving. It all comes from the mind. The body however does offer illness as a response. Upset stomach? Those signals come from your stomach not your mind.

This is why I gave the example of pie. My mind may want that last bite but my stomach is telling my mind no. That creates a conflict between two entities. The conflict takes place in the mind because it also serves the purpose of being the endpoint.


It's not possible.
Seems a bit too assertive to me.

You must not have read my earlier posts. The way to tell if someone is ecto/meso/endo is through ear placement. That post I linked to explains this in more detail. The other posts higher up reference the Ayurvedic view concerning personality and physical constitution.

You're free to disagree of course.
I saw that. I don't see anything in ear placement that has to do with body type.
 

JimJambones

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True, but constitution automatically invalidates someone from being a certain type. If your friends seem very INTP-ish to you and are "thick-set," they are not INTPs. Actually, there are quite a few ISTJs out there that at first blush seem to be like INTPs in terms of not emoting much and being into geeky things, but if you dig a little deeper, you'll find they are not the same. ISTJs are universally endomorphs.

The premise, All INTPs are not thick-set, seems like a very weak premise and can be falsified by 1 fat intp.
 
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