I Know Nothing

[snafupants]

All right, I just found this article. The third stage, purifying one's mind, is what I zipped forward to earlier, which you excitedly called seeking. You seem to be focusing on the first and/or second stage right now, or perhaps that's just you placating me.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/bps-essay_04.html

 

[snafupants]

Purification of mind as understood in the Buddha's teaching is the sustained endeavor to cleanse the mind of defilements, those dark unwholesome mental forces which run beneath the surface stream of consciousness vitiating our thinking, values, attitudes, and actions. The chief among the defilements are the three that the Buddha has termed the "roots of evil" — greed, hatred, and delusion — from which emerge their numerous offshoots and variants: anger and cruelty, avarice and envy, conceit and arrogance, hypocrisy and vanity, the multitude of erroneous views.

Very interesting how these vices or "defilements" roughly align with enneagram, yes my friend?

 

[snafupants]

Since all defiled states of consciousness are born from ignorance, the most deeply embedded defilement, the final and ultimate purification of mind is to be accomplished through the instrumentality of wisdom, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are. Wisdom, however, does not arise through chance or random good intentions, but only in a purified mind. Thus in order for wisdom to come forth and accomplish the ultimate purification through the eradication of defilements, we first have to create a space for it by developing a provisional purification of mind — a purification which, though temporary and vulnerable, is still indispensable as a foundation for the emergence of all liberative insight.

The achievement of this preparatory purification of mind begins with the challenge of self-understanding. To eliminate defilements we must first learn to know them, to detect them at work infiltrating and dominating our everyday thoughts and lives. For countless eons we have acted on the spur of greed, hatred, and delusion, and thus the work of self-purification cannot be executed hastily, in obedience to our demand for quick results. The task requires patience, care, and persistence — and the Buddha's crystal clear instructions. For every defilement the Buddha in his compassion has given us the antidote, the method to emerge from it and vanquish it. By learning these principles and applying them properly, we can gradually wear away the most stubborn inner stains and reach the end of suffering, the "taintless liberation of the mind.

Holy shit! That's exactly how it happened to me! That's it! Really good overview.

Yeah, this article's legit. Dang, yeah, just read this article many times haha.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

I'm pretty sure this enlightenment thing is a way of separating me from the world so that I no longer need a defense mechanism. Am I right?

Hmmm.... What are you?

Let's try separating you from... yourself. My way. (A natural, predisposed orientation towards transcendental perspectivism is perhaps the most useful strength accessible to those of us on the schizophrenic spectrum [referencing myself, not you ], though it takes a little work).

http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=15254

 

[Milo]

Untouchable as in, your Self is protected. That's a better wording for what I meant.

What do you guys think about the experience I had this morning? http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=15255

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

What do you guys think about the experience I had this morning?

I was authentically enjoying nature for the time in my life, as well as appreciating life and obtaining something that I have not had since childhood.

I think ^this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Milo]

What if I attached my Self to "being loving?"

Just like others do to, being rich, being powerful, or being popular.

 

[snafupants]

What if I attached my Self to "being loving?"

Just like others do to, being rich, being powerful, or being popular.

Such a pursuit would still be seeking because you'd be "loving" with an agenda.

 

[snafupants]

@Milo

Sooner or later you need to find out why you aren't loving right now.

 

[Matt3737]

@Milo

Love can be a very vague and ambiguous term. Sometimes I see people throw the phrase 'unconditional love' around while describing how heartbroken they are that the person they are referring to didn't meet their expectations in return.

There is a very jealous sort of love that would kill another person to protect someone they love.

Then there is a love that endures tragedy, suffering, grief, loss, sorrow, and agony.

Your loved ones may fail you, let you down, leave you, betray you, and eventually they will die. Love will endure these things.

It's not the joys and blessings in life that make us, but the struggles and difficulties of life that define who we are.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

What if I attached my Self to "being loving?"

This is where Snafu and I differ. I don't see anything wrong with that, and would in fact encourage it so long as you still recognize the importance of everything that isn't love (pain, fear, maliciousness, etc), which are equally valid. Use love as an act of agency. You can still attach yourself to agency and being.

 

[snafupants]

This is where Snafu and I differ. I don't see anything wrong with that, and would in fact encourage it so long as you still recognize the importance of everything that isn't love (pain, fear, maliciousness, etc), which are equally valid. Use love as an act of agency. You can still attach yourself to agency and being.

Yeah, haha, I have a huge problem with that!

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Yeah, I have a huge problem with that!

Is it okay to comprehend the overarching neutral complexity of a system while simultaneously occupying a biased niche within the system itself?

"I'm your Boogie Man, Boogie Man. Do what you want."

 

[snafupants]

Is it okay to comprehend the overarching neutral complexity of a system while simultaneously occupying a biased niche within the system itself?

Yeah, especially when you hold the right answer.

So whose niche is biased anyway? Is it truly within the system?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Yeah, especially when you hold the right answer.

So whose niche is biased anyway? Is it truly within the system?

All niches are biased at least by agency, and are by definition within the same system, just a matter of scale.

 

[snafupants]

All niches are biased at least by agency, and are by definition within the same system, just a matter of scale.

It clearly depends on the broadness of the system. You haven't really defined system yet.

Theoretically, a position that covered all points wouldn't be biased.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

It clearly depends on the broadness of the system. You haven't really defined system yet.

Systems are... everything

Theoretically, a position that covered all points wouldn't be biased.

Theoretically, that would be omniscience, which may or may not (perhaps the center of the system is a void) exist. But there's already a thread up and running about that.

 

[snafupants]

Theoretically, that would be omniscience, which may or may not (perhaps the center of the system is a void) exist. But there's already a thread up and running about that.

Systems are everything? That statement doesn't even make sense. By definition, everything would be one system. Just saying.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Systems are everything? That statement doesn't even make sense. By definition, everything would be one system. Just saying.

Visa versa is also true. Fractals, mang, fractals.

 

[snafupants]

Visa versa is also true. Fractals, mandingo, fractals.

Now I'm thinking about Rumi haha.

http://compassionandthegoldenrule.wordpress.com/inspirational-quotations/rumi-quotes/

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Now I'm thinking about Rumi haha.

http://compassionandthegoldenrule.wordpress.com/inspirational-quotations/rumi-quotes/

I can work with that

 

[Matt3737]

Technically, a system incorporating all points is absurd due to the principle of explosion because it incorporates every contradiction.


Not that I'm disagreeing. I am a dialetheist. I am saying that it is incredibly deep and complex.

Technically, it can be absurd and also not absurd because it can arbitrarily introduce exclusionary principles on an ad hoc basis (that being the bias, i.e. making sense).

Human language is unique in comparison to other forms of communication, such as those used by non-human animals. Communication systems used by other animals such as bees or non-human apes are closed systems that consist of a closed number of possible things that can be expressed.

In contrast, human language is open-ended and productive, meaning that it allows humans to produce an infinite set of utterances from a finite set of elements and to create new words and sentences. This is possible because human language is based on a dual code, where a finite number of meaningless elements (e.g. sounds, letters or gestures) can be combined to form units of meaning (words and sentences). Furthermore, the symbols and grammatical rules of any particular language are largely arbitrary, meaning that the system can only be acquired through social interaction. The known systems of communication used by animals, on the other hand, can only express a finite number of utterances that are mostly genetically transmitted.

Noam Chomsky once stated, "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously," as an example of a grammatically correct yet incoherent sentence.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Technically, a system incorporating all points is absurd due to the principle of explosion because it incorporates every contradiction.

Not that I'm disagreeing. I am a dialetheist. I am saying that it is incredibly deep and complex. Oh... You're telling me.

Technically, it can be absurd and also not absurd because it can arbitrarily introduce exclusionary principles on an ad hoc basis (that being the bias, i.e. making sense).

Noam Chomsky once stated, "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously," as an example of a grammatically correct yet incoherent sentence.

Then when one realizes that the true complexity underlies the system that produces those words...​

Spoiler

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Is it okay to comprehend the overarching neutral complexity of a system while simultaneously occupying a biased niche within the system itself?

Actually, new question. Is it better to occupy the neutral center in a sessile manner, or to be able to occupy and move between any of the external niches at will, without knowing the center?

 

[snafupants]

Actually, new question. Is it better to occupy the neutral center in a sessile manner, or to be able to occupy and move between any of the external niches at will, without knowing the center?

Did you just reply to yourself?

 

[snafupants]

Technically, a system incorporating all points is absurd due to the principle of explosion because it incorporates every contradiction.

I can imagine black and white, existence and nonexistence, idiocy and genius...what's the problem?

Haha, are you saying I'm about to lose my marbles?

Noam Chomsky once stated, "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously," as an example of a grammatically correct yet incoherent sentence.

It might make perfect sense to someone. I could scream out seven digits and they might amount to the pizza guy's phone number.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Did you just reply to yourself?

You act as if my insanity is somehow new.

(Clearly I side with the latter option of the two presented).

It might make perfect sense to someone.

@snafupants @Matt3737
Word salad. Tis what I experience all too often as of late. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybGbRMMZWzE

 

[snafupants]

You act as if my insanity is somehow new.

(Clearly I side with the latter option of the two presented).

@snafupants
Word salad. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_salad

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybGbRMMZWzE

Haha, I seem to have some features of schizotypal personality disorder and latent schizophrenia. Very high-functioning, however. Idiot, genius, shaman, degenerate, I leave that up to the reader.

Spoiler

It perhaps doesn't help that my grandfather went crazy with an IQ > 170.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Idiot, genius, shaman, degenerate

<--

Spoiler

It perhaps doesn't help that my grandfather went crazy with an IQ > 170.

Perhaps some aspects have mellowed out with additional genetic/epigenetic material.

 

[snafupants]

<--

Haha, what? Andy Partridge?

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Haha, what? Andy Partridge?

 

[Milo]

Okay, so I don't understand how you can experience a "white light" in your heart?

 

[Milo]

Oh, and yeah, I realized attaching myself to "being loving" was a false idea of this when I went to work.

So... @snafupants,
Is it more close to just ignoring my thoughts or could it be the same as accepting all of my troubles, misfortunes, and good things alike are something that a god of my choosing is putting me through (or via some other belief that does the same thing).

 

[snafupants]

Oh, and yeah, I realized attaching myself to "being loving" was a false idea of this when I went to work.

So... @snafupants,
Is it more close to just ignoring my thoughts or could it be the same as accepting all of my troubles, misfortunes, and good things alike are something that a god of my choosing is putting me through (or via some other belief that does the same thing).

Almost both. It's really true that the only way out is through. People devise all of these schemes with drugs and meditation, schemes to take enlightenment or god by stealth or lusty force. Just notice your thoughts without reacting to them. Understand the ego-mind. For the record, you laid the architecture of ego-mind. You can't justifiably shift the onus to god.

 

[Milo]

@Milo

I could just be rambling. I just reread Thom Jones' "I Want to Live!" and it seems obvious that people barricade themselves against help or solace because of fear. Fear of the unknown, trepidation about repayment, and cynical weighing of the pros and cons. In the end, action usually trumps paralyzing analysis or negative hypothesizing.

@snafupants

Is this a touch of it? You act in light of your feelings/intuition instead of letting your thoughts influence it?

 

[snafupants]

@snafupants

Is this a touch of it? You act in light of your feelings/intuition instead of letting your thoughts influence it?

Very much so. I act much more spontaneously now, trusting both intuition and feeling. It's more symptom than cause though. To wit, you couldn't speciously simulate either spontaneous intuition or feeling and expect enlightenment. Oprah tries both and arguably only passes on pat feelings. But yeah, I really forgo much planning. I just sit down, as a freelance writer, and things come to me. There's research, of course, but things dovetail and synthesize pretty seamlessly now. Basically without thought proper. With the spontaneity, though, comes treating every moment as a gift, as you're really experiencing the moment and seeing reality without fetters.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

With the spontaneity, though, comes treating every moment as a gift, as you're really experiencing the moment and seeing reality without fetters.

I see this as essentially the belief that nothing matters because there's a lack of differentiation between good and bad. Just sit back and watch the show, including your own role in it. The smile comes naturally.

 

[snafupants]

I see this as essentially the belief that nothing matters because there's a lack of differentiation between good and bad. Just sit back and watch the show, including your own role in it. The smile comes naturally.

Yeah, I can appreciate that outlook. Perhaps there's little differentiation between "you" and god, which might be bad and good haha. The ego-mind is bad, in this scenario, and god is good. It's fundamentally an empowering Eastern outlook: align yourself with god, and all is good. Western monotheism involves endless genuflecting and worship. No hope of transcendence!

 

[Milo]

Okay, this is what is happening to me, I'm becoming lazier. My intuition is just disregarding all responsibilities as necessary and only paying attention to bodily functions and relaxation.

 

[Milo]

Perhaps I spoke too early. Anxieties are now going down and the more my ego activates and I catch it the more content I feel. I am perceiving good and bad less and less. I will update again later!

 

[Milo]

I just want to sum up what I've learned here so far and also some other things I have applied.

There is no good and bad.
The Self/Who you identify yourself as is not your thoughts, memories/past, thoughts of others, or anything definable.
The past is an illusion of your memories (only the current moment actually exists).
Seeking pleasure with one's ego-mind only deters one from their natural tendencies.
Afterwards you can reapply reason once the ego has been destroyed or at least mostly diminished to allow you to follow your natural tendencies.

You basically let the part of your brain that doesn't have a voice control you and use the other one as a tool in helping it. Most people have it backwards because the one with the voice has the ability to convince you.

Never did feel some amazing white light though. But I am doing much better to say the least.

 

[The Introvert]

Everything I have built psychologically is falling apart. Something is happening. I cannot explain it. I knew before that I could not know anything because of my epistemology class, but I am beginning to lose all hopes of every truly knowing myself.

I have lost all hope.

The mental tools I have been using are useless.

I am shutting down emotionally.

I don't know who I am or what I want...

I never did.

It isn't about knowing who you are, or what you want (from the literal definition of knowing).

You cannot find yourself by actively seeking; you must live in the moment, and assess yourself retrospectively. Only then can you know who you were.

The way I see it, it's kind of like this. If you try to figure out who you are when you are, you'll never be able to figure it out. You're always you in the present; you can never understand yourself until it's in the past. Your future is simply a reflection of your actions in the present. It's a feedback loop - a cycle - yin and yang - or my personal spin, the 'wavelength'.

Although at times you might be at the top of the wavelength, and at others, the low, your average will be right in the middle. So, again, it's never possible to understand where exactly you are in the wavelength until you've had something else to compare it to. Reflection of past events is the only way to truly figure out where you are, who you are, and where you need to go.

If you spend too much time trying to figure out who you are now, you'll have that much less to look back on in the future. Try not to think about who you are and what you want, but just be who you are, and do what you want (within reason, of course). It might help you get out of the rut you are in

 

[Milo]

I am starting to be able to watch as my ego-mind creates words and even as I write this, I watch it do what it does without it identifying itself as me. I will say that this is quite an odd feeling.

 

[Milo]

Now my body seems to be separating from me in the same way. I look in the mirror and it is like I am a spirit that stole this body and mind.

 

[Milo]

My mind and body are now just completely tools for me to use. It is like they are just extensions of me, like they are expendable. I feel a certain kind of power coming out of all the fear, but it is a power that wants to do good. Good exists once again, but the bad has not returned.

Words are just words, they do not apply to me personally anymore. They can no longer influence the idea of myself because I now instinctively know who I am.

 

[BigApplePi]

I'm just visiting Milo. Do you recommend I read this thread or may I respond here?

I just want to sum up what I've learned here so far and also some other things I have applied.

There is no good and bad.

I define good and bad as what is constructive and builds as opposed to what tears down and destroys. Very useful.

The Self/Who you identify yourself as is not your thoughts, memories/past, thoughts of others, or anything definable.

The self is what you have with current awareness as your center with the rest radiating outward from that in ready access and not so ready access.

The past is an illusion of your memories (only the current moment actually exists).

The current moment is what exists but it's in motion. The past/future gives it direction.

Seeking pleasure with one's ego-mind only deters one from their natural tendencies.

What is natural: the present senses or thoughts of the self in motion?

Afterwards you can reapply reason once the ego has been destroyed or at least mostly diminished to allow you to follow your natural tendencies.

Get hold of these natural tendencies.

You basically let the part of your brain that doesn't have a voice control you and use the other one as a tool in helping it. Most people have it backwards because the one with the voice has the ability to convince you.

One is allowed to distribute control.

Never did feel some amazing white light though. But I am doing much better to say the least.

Sometimes it's jambled and sometimes it all fits together.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

Spoiler

Okay, this is what is happening to me, I'm becoming lazier. My intuition is just disregarding all responsibilities as necessary and only paying attention to bodily functions and relaxation.

Perhaps I spoke too early. Anxieties are now going down and the more my ego activates and I catch it the more content I feel. I am perceiving good and bad less and less. I will update again later!

I am starting to be able to watch as my ego-mind creates words and even as I write this, I watch it do what it does without it identifying itself as me. I will say that this is quite an odd feeling.

Now my body seems to be separating from me in the same way. I look in the mirror and it is like I am a spirit that stole this body and mind.

Interesting series. Good series.

I just want to sum up what I've learned here so far and also some other things I have applied.

There is no good and bad.
The Self/Who you identify yourself as is not your thoughts, memories/past, thoughts of others, or anything definable.
The past is an illusion of your memories (only the current moment actually exists).
Seeking pleasure with one's ego-mind only deters one from their natural tendencies.
Afterwards you can reapply reason once the ego has been destroyed or at least mostly diminished to allow you to follow your natural tendencies.

You basically let the part of your brain that doesn't have a voice control you and use the other one as a tool in helping it. Most people have it backwards because the one with the voice has the ability to convince you.

I'm down with all of those except that last one (maybe). What if I told you...

you aren't there yet?

My mind and body are now just completely tools for me to use. It is like they are just extensions of me, like they are expendable. I feel a certain kind of power coming out of all the fear, but it is a power that wants to do good. Good exists once again, but the bad has not returned.

Is murder good?

Words are just words, they do not apply to me personally anymore. They can no longer influence the idea of myself because I now instinctively know who I am.

 

[snafupants]

It's of great benefit just to notice the ego-mind. There's really no need to even come at the analysis with an overarching goal. By just feeling how ego-mind causes dissatisfaction, or noting how a relaxing of ego-mind leads to more freedom and spontaneity, you are moving in the right direction. You shouldn't place any expectations on the process itself, because enlightenment isn't guaranteed and you benefit by degrees in the present by being, well, present. When you're ensnared in habitual patterns and ego-mind seeking, it's really difficult to remain upbeat. Perception seems shallow and unsatisfying, such is the mechanization and nature of the beast. When you give up (or significantly diminish) ego-mind seeking, even washing the car or doing the dishes becomes a completely fulfilling activity. So, the first thing to do is observe ego-mind.

 

[Ex-User (5841)]

you benefit by degrees in the present by being, well, present.

I wanna see how he responds to my prodding. We'll see soon.

Perception seems shallow and unsatisfying. When you give up ego-mind, even washing the car or doing the dishes becomes a completely fulfilling activity.

Spoiler

Gandhi! Is that you!?!?

 

[snafupants]

I wanna see how he responds to my prodding. We'll see soon.

Spoiler

Gandhi! Is that you!?!?

@thehabitatdoctor

I haven't read much from/about Gandhi. I'm probably enneagram one, like Gandhi, though haha. Gandhi basically left being a lawyer to become an itinerant advocate for Indian self-governance, right? Haha, I have heard that Gandhi slept with virgins. As in, just slept. Maybe a goddamned masochistic crazy person to boot. I, myself, can't go long without a proper meal, and I'm not about to give up meat. Tried that...not happening again.