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boondockbabe

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I decided to post this here, because something has finally been done. This story is about my mother and sister. I will warn you, It is graphic and disturbing. I spent fifteen years living in my mother's house in this condition. This is the first time someone has done something. They always used to tell her to clean up the house and then they would just leave us there. I used to beg them to take me away.

The reason I didn't run away was because I was concerned about who would care for my brother and sister. In hindsight, this was probably a mistake. I am the only one in my family who sees anything wrong with the living conditions in the house. My mother and sister now say that it isn't that dirty. Do not be fooled, I was there yesterday to say my final goodbye- I must move on and they will not let me be. So I have cut them out of my life. The house smells so bad you can smell it from the road. I was so ashamed for so long. Now I am sharing this with you because if only one kid reads this and realizes that this is not okay, and begins to save themselves- my pain will be worth it.
It is not okay to live like this. It is certainly not okay to make children live like this. It really fucked me up. It will take me years to recover from the abuse and neglect. If this is happening to you, save yourself while you still can. the sooner you get out, the sooner you can start the healing process. Don't blame yourself, this is not your fault. People like this are sick, they need help.

http://www.lebanondailyrecord.com/n...8-b2f0-11e0-9f17-0019bb30f31a.html?mode=story
 

ApostateAbe

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That is a very sad situation. I can't relate with it, which means I can't say anything useful, but, hell, I am glad I can't relate with it. I see news stories about this sort of thing regularly, which means you may be able to find like an online support group for it. Do you go to the opposite extreme and keep your own living quarters looking like new all of the time?
 

smithcommajohn

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I'm glad you were able to get out of that situation, boondockbabe, it sounds just awful!

I'm the opposite of a hoarder. I own very few things and I'm constantly looking for ways to get rid of more. I keep the basics of what I need/want, but sell/give away the rest.
 

ApostateAbe

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boondockbabe, for those children who may be caught in a situation like that, what would you suggest they do? Call the police?
 

crippli

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When there are messy houses like this there are usually a whole lot of pets using the house as they wish too. And I saw this was the case here as well. Hmm.

Glad to hear you got out, sometimes one need help. I'm okay with messy places, even chaotic places, but they should be clean. I think it's better to leave them behind if they prove resistant to clean ups.
 

boondockbabe

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For children caught in a situation like this,I would say that contacting the police is probably the surest way to insure that at least a welfare check is done. I would recommend telling more than one adult. That way the chances of intervention are higher.

My house: 1 indoor/outdoor housebroke dog, ( I have shot dogs that I could not housebreak),
I actually have a average clean house. I train horses, so I am not home much during the week during the day and I am usually away at shows on the weekends. We do have dishes pile up from time to time, but it is only a few loads and they are done before the weekend. My house is a little cluttered-it looks like someone lives here. But things are relatively clean. I do live in the middle of a hay field, so pristine is unrealistic. All rooms are presentable with the exception of my office/trophy room.
My office/trophy room is usually a mess. but it is a 10x10 room with enough shit to fill a 20x20 room. I live in a Mobile Home, so space is a luxury I don't have. I have so much equipment that must be kept indoors or it will mold and rot in the humidity we have out here. So, everything is kept inside. It makes it a little harder to keep things organized, but it is what I have to work with at the moment. I would not be too embarassed if someone came over unexpectedly.
I try to practice moderation in everything I do. It seems to me that most often, when people get in trouble, it is because they are doing too much, or too little. Moderation is the key. Keep things in control.
 

Aramea

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Thank you for sharing this. I am fascinated with hoarders because I am a "packrat", which is an underdeveloped hoarder. My saving grace is that I hate clutter, so about twice a year I go through the house and tidy up. Tidying up is usually an attempt to stash the clutter away from sight so that my garage and any unused rooms are cluttered. After this project ends the clutter starts to build again lather, rinse, repeat. I have searched for ways to maintain the order but I can't seem to motivate myself when it isn't intrusive.

I watch hoarder shows quite a bit and it appears that actual hoarding is a mental disorder. It is easy to see how attachments are made to 'stuff' with a purpose but I have yet to understand keeping garbage. I hate clutter but I hate foul odors more than almost anything. I routinely toss perfectly good food containers in lieu of discovering the foul substance within.
 

boondockbabe

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What happens is a condition called "clutter blindness". They begin to become "blind" to the mess and the smell. I have found long-dead animals in my mother's house after we were evicted and I was cleaning up her mess. My Most frequent nightmare when I was younger was that I would die in the house- and no one would find me until after my mom was evicted from the house.

btw, I also throw out good tupperware from time to time for the same reason, I just don't need a $5 container bad enough to endure the smell ;)

If anyone has a question about hoarding, I will do my best to answer it. Until we all understand the problem, we will have a hard time finding a workable solution.
 

Words

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Wait, what? You honestly experienced this? And you're currently sharing it in this forum? This isn't everyday...

Anyways, that's a er.. sad but interesting background you have. My childhood is filled with luxury by comparison, but I'm glad things, for you, have changed for the better...or at least will hopefully will.
 

Causeless

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...

My house: 1 indoor/outdoor housebroke dog, ( I have shot dogs that I could not housebreak), ...


Eh? Why not just give em away? I mean... I suppose sometimes the only real option is a shelter where they could very well euthanize them anyway, but shoot a dog for not 'going' outside?

Don't think I could bring myself to it. :/
 

boondockbabe

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ApostateAbe- I had not seen that site yet. But Thank You very much for sharing it with me.

to Words: Yes this actually happened. I decided that I am not going to hide behind the shame of this anymore. It happened, I had to endure it for years, and now, well now I am standing up and doing something about it. I am not going to be ashamed over something I had no control over. It has actually been a big relief to get it off my chest and quit hiding it.

To Causeless: yes, I have shot dogs for not housebreaking. But in my book it is better than sending them to a shelter where they can be "saved" by some crazy ass animal lover who will just end up killing them in the end anyway. This country has too many dogs. We need to start finding realistic ways to controll the population. two bullets in the head while the dag is chomping down pieces of steak seems like a pretty nice way to go to me. I bet the humane scociety dosent let their animals die with a full stomach of prime beef. If I have spent four months trying to train it and it won't train, I won't waste anymore time on it.

I may seem harsh sometimes people, but remember this. I had to literally Survive my childhood. shootring a dog in the head is not an issue. watching something suffer for hours before it finally dies of starvation- I have had to do that many times at my mothers. If I can't save a dog, I will shoot it. I will not loose sleep worrying about an animal that might end up liviving with a crazy bitch like my mom.

ps, it's 4am here and i am getting ready to go to work, I am typings without my glasses on, so I apologize for any typos or misspellings :)

Good day and happy trails
 

Aramea

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I have a friend with a father that hoards junk in a Sanford and Son style junkyard. She has a similar contempt for her father that you express here. There is an underlying narcissism involved when a person simply will not listen and internalize the pain of those around them to that extent. One of the hoarder programs featured a man with a massive junkyard who genuinely did not see the problem that he was in. He was going to go to jail if he didn't get rid of his yard full of shit but he still wanted to get top dollar for the scrap metal or he wouldn't get rid of it. At the end they were just throwing shit in a dumpster cause he would seemingly rather pay to throw it away than get "ripped off". No rational thinking going on at all (ISFP?).

Once, my husband and I had to rent a large dumpster to clear out the garage. It was amazing that we filled the damn thing to the top with crap that at some point we paid money for. It was an eye opener in many many ways. When we moved to this house I had my friend help me make sure that I didn't move crap. We have much fewer items stored now but I will always need to take a couple weekends a year to cull things. I do have a better perspective now.
 

cheese

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I acknowledge that this was very horrible for you, and very tough. I don't understand why though. What's so shameful about it, what's so bad about it? How can it be considered abuse? How can it be so scarring and require healing? (I'm not saying it's not; just that I can't work out on my own how it could have those effects and am asking for help.)
 

Jordan~

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yes, I have shot dogs for not housebreaking

You still win the prize for Worst Thing I've Ever Read. "Yes, I have shot children for not potty training." It's taking great restraint on my part not to suggest poetic justice of the sort that would have nauseated the Romans for the crime of the cold-hearted murder for convenience of dependent innocents.

I'm sorry for what you went through, but I hope you're in therapy. If not for that mitigating circumstance, you'd be unambiguously evil in my books.
 

Aramea

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I acknowledge that this was very horrible for you, and very tough. I don't understand why though. What's so shameful about it, what's so bad about it? How can it be considered abuse? How can it be so scarring and require healing? (I'm not saying it's not; just that I can't work out on my own how it could have those effects and am asking for help.)

While I can't speak for boondockbabe, I can understand it being an unsatisfactory upbringing. Our house was generally tidy growing up. We had dog housetraining issues and finally my mom confined the dog to the basement during the months it couldn't be outside. My brother and I would have to clean the basement on occasion. Back then dog shit didn't bother me too much and my brother and I would throw patties at each other in fits of hilarity. Looking back, it seems like a combination of kid stuff and coping. We never had friends over.

I don't claim "abuse", but it sounds like her situation was much much worse. If it confuses you, perhaps you should watch one of the many hording shows on cable (or YouTube, probably). Children of hoarders universally report frustration, shame and anger. I don't relate to the feelings, but I did not grow up in a mountain of trash and knick knacks. I did want to crawl under a rock when my father expressed interest in purchasing a condemnable shack down the road from the school I attended. In hindsight it was no big deal, but to a junior highschooler with budding social issues, it was the stuff of nightmares.
 

Aramea

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You still win the prize for Worst Thing I've Ever Read. "Yes, I have shot children for not potty training." It's taking great restraint on my part not to suggest poetic justice of the sort that would have nauseated the Romans for the crime of the cold-hearted murder for convenience of dependent innocents.

I'm sorry for what you went through, but I hope you're in therapy. If not for that mitigating circumstance, you'd be unambiguously evil in my books.

Aside from the fact that I doubt the reality of "evil" (yes, I am a relativist), I don't look at shooting a dog as all that bad. People take their dogs to the pound knowing that they stand a good chance of being shoved in a gas chamber after spending some days or weeks on a cold concrete floor. I grew up in both rural and urban environments so I saw many things worse than shooting a dog so that should be taken into account.
 

ApostateAbe

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I acknowledge that this was very horrible for you, and very tough. I don't understand why though. What's so shameful about it, what's so bad about it? How can it be considered abuse? How can it be so scarring and require healing? (I'm not saying it's not; just that I can't work out on my own how it could have those effects and am asking for help.)

Read this news article in full, and bear in mind that this was boondockbabe's childhood home.

Roaches, feces infest Brice Street home

I think you may understand after you read it!
 

Melllvar

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Aside from the fact that I doubt the reality of "evil" (yes, I am a relativist), I don't look at shooting a dog as all that bad. People take their dogs to the pound knowing that they stand a good chance of being shoved in a gas chamber after spending some days or weeks on a cold concrete floor. I grew up in both rural and urban environments so I saw many things worse than shooting a dog so that should be taken into account.

There is nothing in this that would argue that shooting a dog for sake of convenience is ok.

1) Other people do it, so I can too.
2) I've seen worse things so this can't be that bad.

Point is, someone somewhere would have loved the thing and dealt with it. I got my dog from some girls who were doing a lot of meth at the time, weren't taking care of him, they were just going to drop him in the country if I didn't take him. I had two different vets tell me I should just have him put down because he had to be muzzled before they could give him shots. A lot of my friends said the same. He bit me four times while I was training him, once I even had to get antibiotics for it. That was eight years ago, today he's a sweet little dog that follows me around, does what I say (mostly), gets along with everyone I know and sleeps next to me every night. He's been there for me when so-called 'friends' and 'family' didn't give a shit at all.

Personally, I'd shoot someone else's kid before I'd shoot him. Not joking.

In general, people only empathize with things that remind them of themselves, or that they care about. I'm not surprised people are willing to kill shit so callously, just know that someone may look down on you the same way someday. (general comment, not directed at any specific dog-shooter)

Didn't want to reply to this because it was just going to turn into a huge argument/derail, but since it's already headed that way...
 

ApostateAbe

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You still win the prize for Worst Thing I've Ever Read. "Yes, I have shot children for not potty training." It's taking great restraint on my part not to suggest poetic justice of the sort that would have nauseated the Romans for the crime of the cold-hearted murder for convenience of dependent innocents.

I'm sorry for what you went through, but I hope you're in therapy. If not for that mitigating circumstance, you'd be unambiguously evil in my books.
Dude, I am pretty sure that is NOT the worst thing you have ever read. I don't care if you read nothing but fairy tales.
 

Aramea

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Mellivar, I think I was misunderstood. I personally wouldn't shoot a dog. To begin with, I don't have a gun. I have a rescued pitbull that I found in a park. The amount of shit I have taken over owning a pitbull should tell you how I feel about a great dog. I wouldn't shoot her or take her to the pound for anything. She is a wonderful dog. It took at least six months to "mostly" housebreak her, but she is housebroken.

The idea that shooting a dog is somehow beyond comprehension, bordering on evil, is where Jordan lost me. It simply isn't that bad. Dousing it with gasoline and lighting it on fire comes closer to what I can comprehend as "evil". If you read this thread thoroughly, you can conclude that boondockbabe has no intention of living with an unhousebroken dog based on experiences from her childhood. Quite easy to comprehend and not anything close to evil or depraved. The case can be made that a new home should be found, and I do agree with that sentiment. I would also suggest that she research effective methods and breeds that are easier to train. The pitbull has been fairly stubborn but we finally did it.
 

Melllvar

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Mellivar, I think I was misunderstood. I personally wouldn't shoot a dog. To begin with, I don't have a gun. I have a rescued pitbull that I found in a park. The amount of shit I have taken over owning a pitbull should tell you how I feel about a great dog. I wouldn't shoot her or take her to the pound for anything. She is a wonderful dog. It took at least six months to "mostly" housebreak her, but she is housebroken.

Yeah, sorry, I did misunderstand you. I know how people are about pits as well. I had five stray puppies that my ex-girlfriend found on a farm one time; most shelters wouldn't even consider taking them because they said they looked like they might be part pit. It's not always easy finding a good home for unwanted animals, but IMO the people who try are fundamentally better than the people who don't.

I'm getting out of this discussion now. There's no way to express my honest opinion without being a real asshole to the other side.
 

ApostateAbe

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I used to live in a run-down neighborhood, and there was a neighbor woman who would feed 100 cats every day. At feeding time, they would all conglomerate to her house. So, of course, the neighborhood was filled with cats, and they would breed, fight, poop and piss everywhere.

The level of charity toward an animal, to the extent that it is considered cruel to shoot it rather than take it to the pound and gas it, or to feed it and spay/neuter it (you going to do that for every cat and dog?), is vastly inappropriate for everyday reality. Those animals themselves have no sense of charity for other animals. They hunt and only sometimes eat birds, frogs and rodents. They breed like they are in the wild, but their offspring do NOT die of starvation nor get hunted and eaten, but they, too, with the help of charitable humans, breed at an exponential rate.

"But humans do the same thing!" Yeah, but be a realist. There is no simple ideological formula that can give us the best moral result. We just need to balance some of our values with others.
 

Melllvar

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Ok I guess I'm not done after all...

The level of charity toward an animal, to the extent that it is considered cruel to shoot it rather than take it to the pound and gas it, or to feed it and spay/neuter it (you going to do that for every cat and dog?), is vastly inappropriate for everyday reality. Those animals themselves have no sense of charity for other animals. They hunt and only sometimes eat birds, frogs and rodents. They breed like they are in the wild, but their offspring do NOT die of starvation nor get hunted and eaten, but they, too, with the help of charitable humans, breed at an exponential rate.

It's called Trap-Neuter-Return. Although those programs usually end up shutting down due to lack of funding or volunteers.

This whole debate should really be in its own thread, instead of derailing the (mostly) unrelated topic of hoarding and neglect.
 

Jordan~

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A dog looks to you for protection. Murdering it in cold blood just because you can't be arsed to pick up dog shit while you train it is a betrayal of the worst sort. I would say that it was evil if it weren't for the fact that the OP was probably motivated in part by psychological trauma.

Putting a bullet in the head of a living thing - and not just a living thing, but a pet, something you made a commitment to care for and protect - is to me the last recourse in any situation. You kill yourself before you're forced to kill something else. Anything less is pure, selfish contempt for life.

If I were in that situation I'd let my home, my country, the planet, the solar system, the entire local cluster overflow with dog shit before I took a life; anything is more tolerable than killing. I would sooner eat my legs. Anyone who would kill for convenience shouldn't be entrusted with the care of another living thing; their readiness demonstrates beyond doubt an incapacity to fulfill that duty. This is worse than a hoarder letting a dog starve to death. That's a product of mental illness, this is a callous disregard for the value of the life of something you're supposed to love.

I'm not saying it's rational. I'm not a rational. I'm a relativist, too, albeit of a different persuasion, but after I read that my heart was thumping for hours, I felt like I wanted to be sick and my body was ready for violence no matter how I tried to relax. It took me a while to convince myself that the world wasn't a horrible place again. I didn't sleep soundly.

Let's say it's drawn first place with a lot of other things for the position of Worst Thing I've Ever Read. In most atrocities, the people involved give a shit about what they're doing; in this case it was selfish (not just selfish, but selfish for the sake of minor inconvenience), calculated remorselessness and the victim was on the one hand necessarily innocent of any wrongdoing, being a dog, and on the other hand dependent on the perpetrator for care. I struggle to see a difference between this and exposing a newborn because you can't be bothered to look after it.

What the OP went through was horrible, there is no denying that, and I sympathise and admire that the OP is trying to make people aware that they don't have to live like that. But if this psychopathic lack of empathy is the outcome, the OP should be seeing a mental health professional. The fact that it's socially acceptable out in the middle of nowhere makes it no better. I'm a tolerant, calm and forgiving man, but I draw a line at murdering pets in cold blood.
 

ApostateAbe

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Ok I guess I'm not done after all...



It's called Trap-Neuter-Return. Although those programs usually end up shutting down due to lack of funding or volunteers.

This whole debate should really be in its own thread, instead of derailing the (mostly) unrelated topic of hoarding and neglect.
That seems like a great idea.
 

Aramea

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I used to live in a run-down neighborhood, and there was a neighbor woman who would feed 100 cats every day. At feeding time, they would all conglomerate to her house. So, of course, the neighborhood was filled with cats, and they would breed, fight, poop and piss everywhere.

The level of charity toward an animal, to the extent that it is considered cruel to shoot it rather than take it to the pound and gas it, or to feed it and spay/neuter it (you going to do that for every cat and dog?), is vastly inappropriate for everyday reality. Those animals themselves have no sense of charity for other animals. They hunt and only sometimes eat birds, frogs and rodents. They breed like they are in the wild, but their offspring do NOT die of starvation nor get hunted and eaten, but they, too, with the help of charitable humans, breed at an exponential rate.

"But humans do the same thing!" Yeah, but be a realist. There is no simple ideological formula that can give us the best moral result. We just need to balance some of our values with others.

Abe has cut to the heart of the matter. My grandfather used to drown sick and new litters of barn cats to contol the cat population. On a farm you need cats to control rodents but each female cat can produce about 10-12 more each year. He kept rigid control over the number of cats. He took care that I was not exposed to the actual events since I always loved cats, but I knew about it when new litters vanished. There is a point that the cats become ill and can't get enough to eat but they keep making more cats. It is unsustainable.

One cat is a nice, easy to maintain pet. Many cats are very destructive. Feral/barn cats can usually not be made into pets and can be mean around children.
 

Jordan~

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I don't recall expressing approval of farming practices. The cat population is not unsustainable, the system that produces the cat population is morally unsustainable.

Other animals may have no sense of charity (for me this is duty, not charity), but they don't know any better. We're supposed to. I wouldn't feel comfortable making a claim to human dignity unless I was confident that my actions demonstrated a distinction between myself and amoral agents. If I were ready to accept a mental and moral state of nature, I would at the same time consider myself only worthy only of a physical state of nature, not the comforts of civilisation and the dignity afforded to a human being.

I couldn't live compromising on my values, as other than by their fulfillment I can see no way to claim that I deserve to exist, so "realism" implies "suicide" to me, in this case. Reality will conform to the ideal or I will die trying to make it conform to the ideal.

As a side note, this could probably be used as a textbook example of an INFP/INTP conflict.
 

ApostateAbe

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If anyone who shoots a dog sees a psychiatrist for feeling lack of empathy, then the patient would be told to go the fuck home. It is not psychopathic to shoot animals. Why is that? Because it is perfectly natural. Your ancestors subsisted for millions of years on a diet constituting cruelly slain megafauna. Our empathy for animals is also natural, but it is an aberration from the evolutionary function of protecting small human lives. That is why we care for animals that seem more human-like or child-like, but not cockroaches, eels, or spiders.

There is nothing wrong with having empathy for animals. It only causes trouble when you stand in judgment of people who do not share in such a morality.

The military had a little PR trouble some time ago when a few soldiers in Iraq released a video showing them shooting stray dogs for fun. A lot of Americans got upset. Iraqis didn't. Why? Because, in the Arab world, dogs are not pets, but they are seen as pests, much like rats. No Arab would think twice about killing a stray dog.
 

Jordan~

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If anyone who shoots a dog sees a psychiatrist for feeling lack of empathy, then the patient would be told to go the fuck home. It is not psychopathic to shoot animals. Why is that? Because it is perfectly natural. Your ancestors subsisted for millions of years on a diet constituting cruelly slain megafauna. Our empathy for animals is also natural, but it is an aberration from the evolutionary function of protecting small human lives. That is why we care for animals that seem more human-like or child-like, but not cockroaches, eels, or spiders.

Appeal to authority followed by an appeal to nature; not worthy of a response. I care for cockroaches, eels and spiders, too, the extent at least that I wouldn't kill them, even though I'm afraid of spiders.

There is nothing wrong with having empathy for animals. It only causes trouble when you stand in judgment of people who do not share in such a morality.

If I accepted this, I'd be accepting that it's never right to act due to a moral consideration, so I won't. Besides which, I've not imposed anything, only expressed my revulsion, which is all I would ever do.

The military had a little PR trouble some time ago when a few soldiers in Iraq released a video showing them shooting stray dogs for fun. A lot of Americans got upset. Iraqis didn't. Why? Because, in the Arab world, dogs are not pets, but they are seen as pests, much like rats. No Arab would think twice about killing a stray dog.

Is this an appeal to numbers or an appeal to authority or a little of both? It's sophistry in any case. By all means, disagree, but don't dress it up as reason. I'm not making a rational argument to begin with, so there's no point.
 

ApostateAbe

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Jordan~, you have in several instances claimed that shooting animals is a sign of a mental disorder worthy of consulting a mental health professional. My counter was that such a behavior was a natural means of survival for the human species for millions of years, ergo it is NOT an mental disorder. I hope that clears it up.
 

SpaceYeti

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My aunt hoards. She has rooms she literally (as in literally, not figuratively) cannot enter due to all the stuff in them. Why do people do this?
 

Jordan~

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Jordan~, you have in several instances claimed that shooting animals is a sign of a mental disorder worthy of consulting a mental health professional. My counter was that such a behavior was a natural means of survival for the human species for millions of years, ergo it is NOT an mental disorder. I hope that clears it up.

But for one thing, the boundaries of psychological illness are defined according to social definitions of normal and deviant behaviour and aren't beyond question (there's an is/ought distinction). For another, a psychopath kills for personal convenience including humans, the difference here is that it excludes humans. For another, to consider this a case of 'shooting animals' is to ignore the qualitative distinction between a wild animal and a pet (not that I think that the distinction should make a difference to behaviour; I extend the sentiments to wild animals and 'livestock'), similar to ignoring the distinction between a soldier shooting an enemy in a war and a murderer shooting someone in their house, again, not that I think either is excusable, but the distinction remains, so it's not as clear cut as you're making out.

But I don't like to have derailed this thread, I've said what I wanted to, and being in this thread is depressing so I'm not going to visit it again.
 

ApostateAbe

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But for one thing, the boundaries of psychological illness are defined according to social definitions of normal and deviant behaviour and aren't beyond question (there's an is/ought distinction). For another, a psychopath kills for personal convenience including humans, the difference here is that it excludes humans. For another, to consider this a case of 'shooting animals' is to ignore the qualitative distinction between a wild animal and a pet (not that I think that the distinction should make a difference to behaviour; I extend the sentiments to wild animals and 'livestock'), similar to ignoring the distinction between a soldier shooting an enemy in a war and a murderer shooting someone in their house, again, not that I think either is excusable, but the distinction remains, so it's not as clear cut as you're making out.

But I don't like to have derailed this thread, I've said what I wanted to, and being in this thread is depressing so I'm not going to visit it again.
If you would like to register on Debate.org, we can have a formal debate on the topic. Resolution: "Shooting a dog out of convenience is a strong sign of a mental health disorder."
 

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The thread has been slightly derailed by a morality discussion but it IS related peripherally to the original post. There were dead aiimals and feces in the home. Hoarders often have upwards of 100 or more animals in the home that they truly believe they are caring for properly as they haul a dead cat to the curb.

I have had trouble with thinking too logically but I can not change it any more than Jordan can change the following of values. I intellectually understand what (he?) is saying but it doesn't make rational sense so I keep thinking I am not expressing myself properly. One thing that MBTI is teaching me is that rationality is not what makes an INFP tick and logic is not important if it conflicts with morality. INTP is the complete opposite. Morality means very little in the face of poor reasoning. If a logical fallacy is pointed out I have no choice but to change my mind.

One hoarder show featured a woman with 400 pigs (not the cute pot-bellied ones) living in her yard and HOUSE. She didn't acquire them all they were made in place similar to the cat situation. They came and got them all while she sat in her wheelchair (you read that right) heartbroken. She had been given chances to get rid of them but the population kept growing until the law intervened. While I am personally in awe of someone with that much feeling I can not do it. Two or three pigs trashing my house would have ended that humanitarian project well before the first litter was born.
 

SpaceYeti

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Animals are gross. If I weren't married I wouldn't have any pets. They just make messes and you have to spend money on their food... and remember to feed it to them.
 

Aramea

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Animals are gross. If I weren't married I wouldn't have any pets. They just make messes and you have to spend money on their food... and remember to feed it to them.

I understand that sentiment but cats and dogs have their place. We have one cat and one dog both neutered. The cat is my son's and he is responsible for making sure she has food and water and a clean box. She braves the pitbull's water bowl when he forgets so we do have to supplement his efforts.

SY, you asked earlier why do they hoard? Usually it begins after a major loss. They become attached to "stuff" because people are too painful and unreliable to form attachments to. It is amazing the attachments they form to absolute crap. Some rationalize it by calling it "collecting" or they form eBay or junk businesses but rarely actually sell much due to unreasonable pricing.

I have seen a mild form of it in my packratting but eventally I can see the object for what it really is unless there is sentimental value or nostalgia involved. Sometimes I will throw something I have been collecting for years away because I am sick of looking at it or keeping up with it. I have a few boxes of junk from various time in my life that really could be thrown out but I have the room to store them.
 

cheese

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Abe, I read the article before I made my post.

Aramea, I've never heard of 'hoarding' as an actual problem (not denying it is, just saying I've never heard of it) and don't watch tv, nor do I have cable, nor would I have these american shows, the content of which I'm guessing is shared knowledge amongst most of the responders here...? It felt weird coming into a thread with everyone sympathising over something I'd never even heard of, and after reading about couldn't sympathise with.

I did look at the support forum Abe linked, where they explained that hoarding is often a symptom of a serious mental disease, and children are actually neglected, punished, overlooked etc - all in favour of the junk. That made more sense to me - emotional neglect.

Living in filth though - still not sure how that's a major tragedy, though I'm willing to be educated.

Btw, I do know someone who hoards. Unmarried with no kids. He obviously has some things to work through, but it never seemed like a major problem to me - the root of the behaviour is more problematic imo. I guess what I mean is - I don't understand why the actual filth is so scarring. Being ashamed of how stinky your house is, or living in that kind of filth. Hmm. Do parents not allow kids to keep clean areas, like around their beds/bathrooms? At least clean the poo off?

I don't really understand this issue.
 

Aramea

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I understand, cheese. It actually doesn't make sense to me either. I struggle with how dodging stuff and icky substances is a real problem for children every time I watch hoarding shows. Yes, they fascinate me. I can only report what I have observed. Each and every time there are children and spouses involved there is anger, resentment and bitter hard feelings.

Anyone (including a child) can pick up a pile of dog shit. The resentment would build over the course of an entire childhood ("when I grow up I will not live like this") as Mom brings more and more useless crap and/or animals into the home to the point that cleaning it up is pointless as an animal is defecating while you are picking it up. Carpets are soaked with it and can't be replaced (hoarders are often broke) so it is torn up and the family now lives on urine soaked particle board. Each time a new object or animal is brought into the home the hoarder displays how little regard he or she has for the burden placed on others in the family.

Do parents not allow kids to keep clean areas, like around their beds/bathrooms? At least clean the poo off?

It isn't just the filth. A parent that just lets things go and has a dirty house is not really what is going on here. One mom kicked her 14 year old daughter out of her room so she could make a special room for her cats. The kid was supposed to sleep on the reeking sofa in the family room. A family in the neighborhood offered her a room in their house and she took them up on it. Mom couldn't understand why "her baby" wouldn't live in the house with her. That's fucked up.
 

ApostateAbe

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If every family's home was a toilet, then maybe children wouldn't hold it against their parents. Some children adapt. boondockbabe's sister seems to be of one mind with her mother. For everyone else, I would have to think that living in a toilet seems to be a reckless assault on one's entire life. You would have unmitigated alienation from the rest of society. "Oh, that's Candice, she lives in the toilet home."
 

Aramea

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If every family's home was a toilet, then maybe children wouldn't hold it against their parents. Some children adapt. boondockbabe's sister seems to be of one mind with her mother. For everyone, I would have to think that living in a toilet seems to be a reckless assault on one's entire life. You would have unmitigated alienation from the rest of society. "Oh, that's Candice, she lives in the toilet home."

This is true. If everyone's house contained 25 large dogs urinating all over the carpet and couch the folks in the clean one would be ostracized. That's what I mean by "it's not really the filth". I guess there are some health issues with animal waste but I assume in an extreme environment you would be immune to nearly anything that could infect you. I also assume that you become desensitized to the odors.

Society does put a premium on compliance with its little rules. After many years of bucking the norms, even I have been known to give in to what is easy and won't make waves. Dealing with it tires you out and everyone has a breaking point. No one changes for me but I am supposed to become something I am not. Over time, yea resentment builds.
 

SpaceYeti

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I understand that sentiment but cats and dogs have their place. We have one cat and one dog both neutered. The cat is my son's and he is responsible for making sure she has food and water and a clean box. She braves the pitbull's water bowl when he forgets so we do have to supplement his efforts.

SY, you asked earlier why do they hoard? Usually it begins after a major loss. They become attached to "stuff" because people are too painful and unreliable to form attachments to. It is amazing the attachments they form to absolute crap. Some rationalize it by calling it "collecting" or they form eBay or junk businesses but rarely actually sell much due to unreasonable pricing.

I have seen a mild form of it in my packratting but eventally I can see the object for what it really is unless there is sentimental value or nostalgia involved. Sometimes I will throw something I have been collecting for years away because I am sick of looking at it or keeping up with it. I have a few boxes of junk from various time in my life that really could be thrown out but I have the room to store them.
I still have my Space Marines and Dark Eldar, but I think that's mostly because I don't want to get rid of them just for my friends to start playing Warhammer 40K again. Also, I spent a significant portion of my weekends to painting them, and I really like how some of them look. I got decent at it.

Usually, though, I hoard things because I forget they're there.
 

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I shared this, because I wanted to get it out and not be ashamed about having to grow up in shit and rotting filth. If some of you like living like that, then fine. But I think it is sick. Why anyone would want to live like that is beyond me.

To the animal lovers: If I cannot find it a home, and the local shelter is full. It is more humane to shoot it and end it's misery now, rather than dump it somewhere and expect it to " live happily ever after" DUMPED ANIMALS GET PICKED UP BY CRAZY BITCHES LIKE MY MOM where they will eventually starve to death or just plain die from lack of care, which by the way is exactly what will happen if no one takes it in.

So, shooting is much nicer than letting it starve or be neglected or abused. Where is it going to find shelter in the winter? or shade and fresh water in the summer?

To those of you who think I need therapy, I will let you know I have been deeing one for years now. This story is just the tip of the iceberg, but the last I will probably share with you. Some of you should spend more time Thinking, and less time Feeling. Then, maybe you would begin to understand. Walk a mile in my shoes, or at least try before you judge me.
 

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Aww. I hope I didn't offend you with my inability to understand. I wouldn't like living in filth either, of course.

I hope you still feel comfortable here.
 

kantor1003

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Well, if I am not mistaken, boondockbabe shared a personal story telling about her having to live up along with dead animals and feces laying around, something that must have amounted to a terrible way to grow up and must have severely impacted, or destroyed her relationship with her mother, while jordan was caught up in the fact that she shot a dog or two once for not being able to houstrain it. I'm pretty sure it's Jordan's fault:kilroy:
 

boondockbabe

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I'm fine. I just get a little thin skinned sometimes. I apologize for my angry rant. I probably should have spent a little more time Thinking before I responded.;) Let this be a good example of what happens when we React without thinking.
I am fine, I believe Jordan is fine, But be warned, If you piss me off, I will probably let you know about it. I am always open to discussion, and if I am being unreasonably pissy, let me know. I don't always realize it.
Btw Cheese, I love it here. Even when you guys piss me off, I still love it

I actually appreciate your insight. Sometimes ;)

So, Keep it coming, I can take it. And if I can't, then I'll just have to deal with it
 

boondockbabe

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Cheese : The filth was so difficult because the of the smell. Imagine a house with thirty indoor dogs and countless cats. Now imagine trying to live in that house with three other people. All whom think it is okay to live with insane numbers of indoor animals. My mother never picked up after herself, much less her animals, and neither did my brother or sister. In the winter, she would store the dead cats in the freezer until spring when I could dig a proper mass-grave for them. ( they always had to have a special burial) Now, I don't have a problem with this, other than I consider all of these animals to be a burden, and an embarrassment. Imagine trying to go to school every day smelling like dog shit. How many years of bullying would you endure before you started getting a serious headtrip? I am really amazed I didn't kill anyone. I did seriously hurt some people, but you can only endure so much abuse and embarrassment before you start to break. I was hazed and bullied from 12-16. It stopped at 16 because I started knocking the shit out of people who teased me. I should at this point mention that I am in no way interested in hurting anyone for having an opnion here. If I didn't want an opnion and to share my story, then I shouldn't have posted it. I really don't regret it. I like not being ashamed of it anymore. But the filth was bad mostly because of the torment I recieved by my classmates. Although getting food out of a fridge that had dead animals in it was pretty disturbing. I mean, you are eating hamburger that came from fluffy's frozen "coffin". Does that not bother you? I am pretty hard, and it bothers me.

I also can't eat leftovers, and I wont eat anything that comes from an already opened container, unless I know it has been in there less than 1 day.
Here's one for ya. Imagine picking the dead cockroaches out of the macaroni noodles before you add the cheese powder and water(no milk or butter-too poor for that). You are picking dead stuff out of the food you just cooked, and you are going to eat it. It is all you will have to eat that day. And you will eat it off a dirty plate or out of the container. With a dirty fork. Why no clean dishes you ask? Because nobody will do them, the dishes in the sink are two months old, covered in growing stuff, and stinking up the house in their own way.

I cannot do it all, I already am caring for all the animals they brought home, I am trying to go to school, and I am riding horses, and doing manual farm labor so we have money for some food, because mom spent all of our food money on the fucking animals. Harsh? Hell yes. I know I am harsh. When you see death and suffering on a almost daily basis for over a decade, you get a little harsh. I can't tell you how many animals I watched suffer and die. And the crazy bitch cried over every one of them. I actually started praying for their deaths when they started suffering, and I wished I had the guts to end it for them. For the longest time I would watch them suffer and die, and I would cry, because nobody cared, and I couldn't do a damn thing about it. I can still recall every animal that lay dying while I cried and apologized to it because I couldn't help it. I would tell it how sorry I was it ended up with my mom, and I would pray to god to end it's life and to forgive me for not being strong enough to do the right thing. Too many to count. I have only shot four dogs. Two for not housebreaking, no one would take them, and you can't just dump a little weenie dog. they will die without a human to care for them. I WILL NOT lock an animal up in a small kennel and pretend that it is happy living in a cage, being forgotten by the world. I would rather die than be locked up and forgotten.
One other dog I shot because my neighbor shot him first for chasing his livestock, he wasn't a very good shat and he just wounded the dog. I shot another for chasing my horses and cow, and killing my chickens. Can't have a dog that eats your food. Or runs it through a fence and costs you a huge vet bill.

I could take them into town and pay a vet fifty+ dollars to euthanize the dog, but a bullet is only 20 cents. If it is gonna die either way, and livestock harassment is a killing offense in the country, then why not save yourself some money? Do I sound too cold ? I always thought I was just being realistic. When money is hard to come by, why would you spend fifty dollars to do what you could do for 20 cents?

The filth was so disturbing because it affected all of my life. It literally followed me everywhere. Think about that. You can't stop from smelling like the house does. How would you like to have to see people and smell like dog shit while you talked to them? Could you even look them in the eye? Would smelling like shit and piss and rotting food and dying animals not shame you? If it would not, than you are way stronger than I am. I was ashamed. But not anymore, It was out of my control. I am just super happy I survived it.

Now lets talk about that for a moment. I came from a severly dysfunctional home, and I have not only made it out and broke the cycle. But I am in a very solid relationship, am on the board of my local Saddle club, Have won one Local Reserve championship, Five local Championships, and Two World Championships. THAT is the really cool part. I went from being nobody anybody cared about to being one of the premier local trainers. Pretty cool.
Sorry, Just had to brag a bit ;)
 

ApostateAbe

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I just now decided that my own childhood was close to perfect.
 

cheese

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boon, that does help explain it more, especially the social points. I do see how the bullying and shame resulted from the hoarding/filth, but I suppose I'd class it as a separate category from simply having a dirty home and that's what confused me.

Also, I didn't know you had no clean food at all.

Being trapped in dirt all the time and having nowhere else to go (the lawn? I assume it was horrible too) does sound very bad.

Shooting the dogs makes sense to me, though that doesn't necessarily prove anything. I probably would have done the same thing in your situation. Your intentions were clearly good, at least.
 
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