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Do INTPs lack object constancy?

cheese

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Most of us report basically forgetting friends and partners exist if they're not right there in the room. It can be almost instant. It causes us to appear/be distant and uncaring. It can cause us to unknowingly abandon friendships, family and relationships without even realising.

Babies lack object constancy but develop it as they get older, to an extent somewhat determined by the security of the attachment developed with their primary caregiver. Most of you are probably familiar with attachment theory; I'd guess INTPs fall largely in the avoidant category: showing little overt distress when the caregiver leaves and little happiness when they return, though with some signs of covert stress suggesting repression of negative feelings.

Avoidant infants also exhibit less exploration in the environment, presumably because they lack a secure base (secure attachment with a present caregiver). One theory is that this physical exploration is necessary to develop object permanence, by reinforcing boundaries between objects, between self and other. Facial/behavioural mirroring is also an important component of creating a sense of self in an infant and developing understanding of its internal states. Obviously, avoidant babies would have reduced experience with both, and therefore reduced development of both object permanence and sense of self/emotional integration.

Possible intersections with common INTP experience:
1) Feeling like just a brain, just a thought process. The lack of a clearly-defined Self/Ego with which you relate to others. Can feeling like you don't have a self preclude the vulnerability necessary to form emotional attachments to people, and therefore the mental infrastructure necessary to remember them (have them come to mind) when they're gone?

2) Having trouble with emotions, especially their intensity. Lacking the skills to process emotions and integrate them into a holistic sense of self and the self's relation to the world beyond an intellectual understanding of mere behavioural principles. Repressing them as a result, and having outbursts that make little sense.

3) Absent-mindedness. Literally forgetting that things exist, need to be done or where they are (no object constancy - out of sight, out of mind). Emotions, including stress, aid with memory formation, so reduced emotional capacity and integration might impair memory too.

4) Chameleoning. Having no stable sense of self which persists. Mirroring everything and everyone, and through that slowly developing a sense of self which was stunted in early childhood.

Personal experience:
I was brought up very securely but had no idea what it meant to miss someone. I was completely unfamiliar with the feelings you're meant to have in friendship. I believe I never really bonded with any of my (many and varied) friends - the self was never vulnerable, because it was never connected with. I liked my friends and valued them, and vice-versa, but if they weren't around it was often like they didn't exist. I moved schools multiple times and felt little regret. Little of anything, really. Friends were close to meaningless. They were just fleas, right? You picked them up without noticing and sometimes some dropped off, but there were always more to come. This continued into adulthood.

After some development and trauma, my attachment style started to solidify and even appear anxious at times, primarily in partnerships. This was after an introduction to the experience of "missing" friends and having a notion that friendships continue, and that effort had to be put in - essentially when I started properly investing and connecting through a sense of personal identity, rather than from a removed position. (I was previously unaware I was removed, and simply felt spacey and happily empty when alone, and disconnected from whichever persona of mine had interacted with others.) This marked the beginning of a slow development of a relatively stable sense of self - something I've always struggled with. The stabler the self, the less I am able to be removed in interaction, the more people hold a real place in my mind.

My guess:
INTPs have a tendency towards reduced object constancy and reduced emotional integration. We are naturally slightly avoidant. Emotionally impoverished upbringings can greatly exaggerate this condition, whereas supportive upbringings can mask it by creating perfectly content schizoid-like people (people who are entirely happy on their own, whose attachment objects exist only inside themselves). Either way, we lack object permanence with both objects and people, and manifest this in forgetfulness and unintentional coldness (rather than clinginess). Upon creation of a stable, integrated identity which is associated with more than the primary caregivers, the INTP may start to develop genuine attachments which are rooted in the self. Without an identity which can be invested (and thus risk loss), attachments are impossible, and therefore sustained memory of the Other without their continued physical presence is extremely difficult.

Projected progression:
However, as the self is developed and real attachment becomes possible, the INTP's attachment style will veer towards anxiety rather than avoidance or security, until object permanence has been properly established. This is because emotional resources are still inadequate and constancy isn't fully understood. The Self is becoming permanent, which makes emotional injuries a real threat which also remain permanent and can't simply be erased when a new persona is created in mirroring others. The developing INTP is essentially returned to an infantile state which is vulnerable and dependent on others - giving rise to some anxious-attachment behaviours.

This is a pretty big guess, and not necessarily based on personal experience. I'm just triangulating.

I have no concrete ideas for this thread. Take it where you want, though I'd request a thread split if an extended personal fight or witch-hunting occurs.

Also, there's a lot of psychobabble in here which I'm sort of just plopping together without any expertise. Anyone who knows more, feel free to correct.
 

Sir Eus Lee

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I think I agree.

Unless I consciously decide to think about what I need to do, or the current state of people around me, I dont.

I think this is Si related. But Si is only checked for certain information if through Fe the INTP decides to.

I think I have trouble making obvious observations about existing data. Sometimes there is some sort of data that could obviously mean something, or require some piece of obvious interaction or deductions, but I am very passive to my external environment, so usually it just ends up as somebody correcting me or the situation being one where I say to myself "that was so obvious. You idiot."

Like I was playing Agario at one point, and I was teaming with 3 players. One of them was trying to eat another teammate, but I thought it was a mistake or something. I kind of dismissed it, and when I became vulnerable they got me.

I just think I lack that "This implies this" mentality directly to the outside world, but if I grabbed it with Ti then I'd make that jump easily. I don't know.

I didn't read the whole first post this time... Maybe I'll go back and read it at some point.
 

Cheeseumpuffs

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Posting right now to make a note to myself to respond to this thread tomorrow when I'm sober and have time to formulate a (hopefully) thoughtful reply.

Very interesting stuff here. As a very quick response I'd put in that I have issues with object permanency. Not sure if it's necessarily a lack of it or an oversensitivity to it, but issues nonetheless.

G'night everyone. I truly appreciate all of you.
 

Hadoblado

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I fit into the pic you've painted pretty well, though I think I've communicated as much to you previously.

Whether by nature or adaptation, I developed an avoidant attachment style. I've often thought these styles useful for thinking in terms of personality. In particular, and avoidant style overlaps with introversion and low Fe. I've often wondered if I would handle people better face to face if I had a more nourishing social environment, but by the same token, would I have even embraced such an environment if it was available?

I've never thought about it in terms of object permanence. On one hand, it seems like I'm humouring you even considering the notion I don't have it, but on the other, I really do lack an external narrative to my thoughts. I think about what's in front of me, 'solve' it, then move on having already forgotten it. There is a parallel there, though I'm not sure whether it's merely cosmetic or not. I know the things I'm no longer engaged by exist, it's as if my attention doesn't.

I think you're on to something. There's an enormous amount of overlap. I can't be bothered discriminating between what's been said or not, but I'll just bulletpoint so I'm not exhaustively repeating you if it does happen.

Overlap:
- object permanence
- disorganisation (low awareness of things outside your awareness)
- low social ability
- rebellious identity, fierce independence of though
- scatter mindedness as pieces fall in and out of consciousness
- low working memory capacity as mentioned above
- poorly developed social identity (often struggling to get socially afloat)
- belief system founded in principle rather than indoctrination
- autodidactism
- detached interest (moron be oxy), a curiosity that's not in service to the purpose our creators gave us.
- "insecure" in self, and thus insecure in belief (aka open-minded)
- little grasp of the games played by other attachment styles (see anxious-resistant and some disorganised styles)
- mental illness (correlation with social isolation or nonacceptance)

As I think about it, it really makes more and more sense. If someone has a behavioural strategy that forgos socialisation with primary caregiver, making the call the payoff in attention isn't worth it, then they're sort of fine throughout childhood just doing their own thing. But the real world kick in after a while. Here have a sex drive. Get a job. Complete a group project. A strategy that has you living minimally in a social sense works for so long as you actually don't need more than what you have. Once your need increases you find yourself suddenly terrifyingly unprepared, and there you have your average forum recruit: emotionally a child with an adult's needs and responsibilities.

:cat:

*pelts cheese with freshly minted copper lizards*
 

Yellow

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I strongly relate with this. I had a socially maladjusted upbringing, though, so I thought it was just a defectiveness. I don't miss people when they're gone from my life. In my most extreme, I think, "gee, I remember talking to so-and-so. I liked that." I can't imagine a person's face when I close my eyes. Not even my mother or my INTJ. I actually forget my parents exist quite frequently, and forget to call them for months at a time. I move and never look at the people I leave behind. I don't feel attachment the way others do.

The more useful memories I share with someone, the more often they'll be recalled, but they are just an object at that point. They are an example of an idea, an archetype for new people I might meet, something to analyse, whatever. In general, when people are out of sight, they are out of mind.

I try not to self-diagnose, and I'm best compartmentalizing my own thoughts and feelings from my profession. Since I've never come across someone with this particular issue, I don't have much beyond personal insight to contribute.

I do know that infants who fail to form a secure attachment bond, or have it severed too young, have significant social and emotional issues throughout life. Trauma will do the same. The earlier, the worse it is. This can lead to unhealthy attachment as an adult with either antisocial tendencies or codependency.
I know that I had attachment issues as an infant. I experienced a lot of violence from toddler-age on up from adults and children I encountered. I always just assumed that these were the factors that led to an almost antisocial/sociopathic internal world. I behave in an attached and caring way when it is called for. I don't come across as disingenuous because I honestly want to generate feelings of social bond/warmth for the other person. I just don't feel it on a personal level.
Ultimately, I don't think our issue is object permanence. We have that in spades. We store huge amounts of information in our heads, and it doesn't go away just because we're not thinking of it at the moment.

I don't know about you, but I need environmental cues to recall information. I know we all need some kind of reminder, but I think some people have an easier time with memory prioritization. Some people can keep the same simple idea on their minds all the time, if needed. I have no talent for this. It may resemble a baby's behaviors, but it's a different thing.

I am simultaneously scatterbrained and highly focused. When I'm in the zone, nothing exists outside my utility of the moment. When I finally break focus, it's truly broken, and I'm onto the next thing. The ideas and memories aren't lost, they're just not needed right now, so they're pushed aside.

Since other people are almost never needed, they're almost never called to the forefront. It's like a systematic ruthlessness, in way, rather than forgetfulness.
 

Brontosaurie

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I think I agree.

Unless I consciously decide to think about what I need to do, or the current state of people around me, I dont.

I think this is Si related. But Si is only checked for certain information if through Fe the INTP decides to.

I think I have trouble making obvious observations about existing data. Sometimes there is some sort of data that could obviously mean something, or require some piece of obvious interaction or deductions, but I am very passive to my external environment, so usually it just ends up as somebody correcting me or the situation being one where I say to myself "that was so obvious. You idiot."

Like I was playing Agario at one point, and I was teaming with 3 players. One of them was trying to eat another teammate, but I thought it was a mistake or something. I kind of dismissed it, and when I became vulnerable they got me.

I just think I lack that "This implies this" mentality directly to the outside world, but if I grabbed it with Ti then I'd make that jump easily. I don't know.

I didn't read the whole first post this time... Maybe I'll go back and read it at some point.

I know exactly what you mean.
 

Glaerhaidh

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My experience is similar, however with friends it's entirely the opposite.
I remember all of the friends I've had over the years, sometimes I miss them, sometimes I know what they would say at a given moment, I grow attached to people, not easily but steadily.

Weirdly enough, after I became more detached and "object inconstant" in some groups and places, including this forum, I managed to become closer to some folks in a sort of sedentary, coagulative way that I can't quite explain. Maybe because that was the preferred paradigm of attachment or expectation that I needed to get over applying in some cases.
 
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I strongly relate with this. I had a socially maladjusted upbringing, though, so I thought it was just a defectiveness. I don't miss people when they're gone from my life. In my most extreme, I think, "gee, I remember talking to so-and-so. I liked that." I can't imagine a person's face when I close my eyes. Not even my mother or my INTJ. I actually forget my parents exist quite frequently, and forget to call them for months at a time. I move and never look at the people I leave behind. I don't feel attachment the way others do.

The more useful memories I share with someone, the more often they'll be recalled, but they are just an object at that point. They are an example of an idea, an archetype for new people I might meet, something to analyse, whatever. In general, when people are out of sight, they are out of mind.

I try not to self-diagnose, and I'm best compartmentalizing my own thoughts and feelings from my profession. Since I've never come across someone with this particular issue, I don't have much beyond personal insight to contribute.

I do know that infants who fail to form a secure attachment bond, or have it severed too young, have significant social and emotional issues throughout life. Trauma will do the same. The earlier, the worse it is. This can lead to unhealthy attachment as an adult with either antisocial tendencies or codependency (or some awful mix of the two including sadomasochism and other less-than-altruistic behaviors).
I know that I had attachment issues as an infant. I experienced a lot of physical and sexual violence from toddler-age on up from adults and children I encountered. I always just assumed that these were the factors that led to an almost antisocial/sociopathic internal world. I behave in an attached and caring way when it is called for. I don't come across as disingenuous because I honestly want to generate feelings of social bond/warmth for the other person. I just don't feel it on a personal level.
Ultimately, I don't think our issue is object permanence. We have that in spades. We store huge amounts of information in our heads, and it doesn't go away just because we're not thinking of it at the moment.

I don't know about you, but I need environmental cues to recall information. I know we all need some kind of reminder, but I think some people have an easier time with memory prioritization. Some people can keep the same simple idea on their minds all the time, if needed. I have no talent for this. It may resemble a baby's behaviors, but it's a different thing.

I am simultaneously scatterbrained and highly focused. When I'm in the zone, nothing exists outside my utility of the moment. When I finally break focus, it's truly broken, and I'm onto the next thing. The ideas and memories aren't lost, they're just not needed right now, so they're pushed aside.

Since other people are almost never needed, they're almost never called to the forefront. It's like a systematic ruthlessness, in way, rather than forgetfulness.

Yes. So much of this resonates with me.
 

Jennywocky

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Too tired to write much about it, but it's a lot like what others have said. Aside from my ongoing social anxieties, I was very ambivalent/avoidant with my parents, I never really felt like I had parents (because I always took care of myself) even if I have now come to respect and appreciate my mother and like connecting with her every week or two.

I think when i had children (and also ended up being married for a long time and having to work really hard on my marriage despite it all), something shifted and I am struggling with the fallout of having a split experience on this now.

I have the ability to feel like I like and care about certain people deeply, yet when they disappear or we're not in proximity we can go weeks, months, or even years without talking -- then connect again as if the time was not there. But it's like once I was forced to connect and engage with my kids, even though i'm capable of being the same way with them (not talking to them for two weeks at a time), I also simultaneously miss them terribly, and I find that I experience loneliness on some level when I'm alone more than I did when I was young. (Like now I know what I am missing or something.) It doesn't really change my behavior, I still am routinely alone and doing my own thing, but I feel more negative emotions at times now over it than I did earlier in life. I can also miss my 'friends' with great intensity, yet it doesn't really improve my motivation or ability to reach out to them somehow. I don't know. It's one of the things I find more confusing about myself nowadays.

When I lose myself in a project or something mental, however, I don't really think about the absence of others. I think I feel isolation mostly when I'm bored and do not have something of interest to focus on.

Anyway, I identify with the avoidance/ambivalence scenario when growing up. I didn't really feel like I had a family and pretty much was on my own, and I'm not close at all to my sister or other relatives nowadays. If I were willing to expend the energy and had the resources, I'm the one in the family who could just disappear "into the woods/world" for ten years without no one even knowing whether I was alive, and just surface later at some point as if nothing had happened.
 
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Too tired to write much about it, but it's a lot like what others have said. Aside from my ongoing social anxieties, I was very ambivalent/avoidant with my parents, I never really felt like I had parents (because I always took care of myself) even if I have now come to respect and appreciate my mother and like connecting with her every week or two.

I think when i had children (and also ended up being married for a long time and having to work really hard on my marriage despite it all), something shifted and I am struggling with the fallout of having a split experience on this now.

I have the ability to feel like I like and care about certain people deeply, yet when they disappear or we're not in proximity we can go weeks, months, or even years without talking -- then connect again as if the time was not there. But it's like once I was forced to connect and engage with my kids, even though i'm capable of being the same way with them (not talking to them for two weeks at a time), I also simultaneously miss them terribly, and I find that I experience loneliness on some level when I'm alone more than I did when I was young. (Like now I know what I am missing or something.) It doesn't really change my behavior, I still am routinely alone and doing my own thing, but I feel more negative emotions at times now over it than I did earlier in life. I can also miss my 'friends' with great intensity, yet it doesn't really improve my motivation or ability to reach out to them somehow. I don't know. It's one of the things I find more confusing about myself nowadays.

When I lose myself in a project or something mental, however, I don't really think about the absence of others. I think I feel isolation mostly when I'm bored and do not have something of interest to focus on.

Anyway, I identify with the avoidance/ambivalence scenario when growing up. I didn't really feel like I had a family and pretty much was on my own, and I'm not close at all to my sister or other relatives nowadays. If I were willing to expend the energy and had the resources, I'm the one in the family who could just disappear "into the woods/world" for ten years without no one even knowing whether I was alive, and just surface later at some point as if nothing had happened.

Jenny, since my ex left and post divorce I've had family members comment that I'm returning to my old self. They've said its been remarkable to see me return to life after distancing myself from that horrid underdeveloped ESFJ. They say it was like after I got married I just kinda disappeared off the radar about a decade ago and our of sight down a rabbit hole if you know what I mean. Literally and figuratively in terms of not being myself. Not the same with you at all post divorce?
 

Urakro

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Most of us report basically forgetting friends and partners exist if they're not right there in the room. It can be almost instant. It causes us to appear/be distant and uncaring. It can cause us to unknowingly abandon friendships, family and relationships without even realising.

Babies lack object constancy but develop it as they get older, to an extent somewhat determined by the security of the attachment developed with their primary caregiver. Most of you are probably familiar with attachment theory; I'd guess INTPs fall largely in the avoidant category: showing little overt distress when the caregiver leaves and little happiness when they return, though with some signs of covert stress suggesting repression of negative feelings.

Avoidant infants also exhibit less exploration in the environment, presumably because they lack a secure base (secure attachment with a present caregiver). One theory is that this physical exploration is necessary to develop object permanence, by reinforcing boundaries between objects, between self and other. Facial/behavioural mirroring is also an important component of creating a sense of self in an infant and developing understanding of its internal states. Obviously, avoidant babies would have reduced experience with both, and therefore reduced development of both object permanence and sense of self/emotional integration.

Possible intersections with common INTP experience:
1) Feeling like just a brain, just a thought process. The lack of a clearly-defined Self/Ego with which you relate to others. Can feeling like you don't have a self preclude the vulnerability necessary to form emotional attachments to people, and therefore the mental infrastructure necessary to remember them (have them come to mind) when they're gone?

2) Having trouble with emotions, especially their intensity. Lacking the skills to process emotions and integrate them into a holistic sense of self and the self's relation to the world beyond an intellectual understanding of mere behavioural principles. Repressing them as a result, and having outbursts that make little sense.

3) Absent-mindedness. Literally forgetting that things exist, need to be done or where they are (no object constancy - out of sight, out of mind). Emotions, including stress, aid with memory formation, so reduced emotional capacity and integration might impair memory too.

4) Chameleoning. Having no stable sense of self which persists. Mirroring everything and everyone, and through that slowly developing a sense of self which was stunted in early childhood.

Personal experience:
I was brought up very securely but had no idea what it meant to miss someone. I was completely unfamiliar with the feelings you're meant to have in friendship. I believe I never really bonded with any of my (many and varied) friends - the self was never vulnerable, because it was never connected with. I liked my friends and valued them, and vice-versa, but if they weren't around it was often like they didn't exist. I moved schools multiple times and felt little regret. Little of anything, really. Friends were close to meaningless. They were just fleas, right? You picked them up without noticing and sometimes some dropped off, but there were always more to come. This continued into adulthood.

After some development and trauma, my attachment style started to solidify and even appear anxious at times, primarily in partnerships. This was after an introduction to the experience of "missing" friends and having a notion that friendships continue, and that effort had to be put in - essentially when I started properly investing and connecting through a sense of personal identity, rather than from a removed position. (I was previously unaware I was removed, and simply felt spacey and happily empty when alone, and disconnected from whichever persona of mine had interacted with others.) This marked the beginning of a slow development of a relatively stable sense of self - something I've always struggled with. The stabler the self, the less I am able to be removed in interaction, the more people hold a real place in my mind.

My guess:
INTPs have a tendency towards reduced object constancy and reduced emotional integration. We are naturally slightly avoidant. Emotionally impoverished upbringings can greatly exaggerate this condition, whereas supportive upbringings can mask it by creating perfectly content schizoid-like people (people who are entirely happy on their own, whose attachment objects exist only inside themselves). Either way, we lack object permanence with both objects and people, and manifest this in forgetfulness and unintentional coldness (rather than clinginess). Upon creation of a stable, integrated identity which is associated with more than the primary caregivers, the INTP may start to develop genuine attachments which are rooted in the self. Without an identity which can be invested (and thus risk loss), attachments are impossible, and therefore sustained memory of the Other without their continued physical presence is extremely difficult.

Projected progression:
However, as the self is developed and real attachment becomes possible, the INTP's attachment style will veer towards anxiety rather than avoidance or security, until object permanence has been properly established. This is because emotional resources are still inadequate and constancy isn't fully understood. The Self is becoming permanent, which makes emotional injuries a real threat which also remain permanent and can't simply be erased when a new persona is created in mirroring others. The developing INTP is essentially returned to an infantile state which is vulnerable and dependent on others - giving rise to some anxious-attachment behaviours.

This is a pretty big guess, and not necessarily based on personal experience. I'm just triangulating.

I have no concrete ideas for this thread. Take it where you want, though I'd request a thread split if an extended personal fight or witch-hunting occurs.

Also, there's a lot of psychobabble in here which I'm sort of just plopping together without any expertise. Anyone who knows more, feel free to correct.

I feel like I have a ton of stuff to say about this, but I don't really know where to start. I'm not sure whether to just talk about INTP traits, or my own personal experience. When it comes to my own experience, I really can't say anything too definitive.

I have the same tendency to not really miss people if they are not around. Except for those times where I just met someone that makes me feel something more. Or sometimes, I'll get a nagging thought coming from the back of my head urging me to sympathize with someone's adversity if I know they are going through hard times. Or sometimes, I have moments where I just get a little bored, and I'll call someone up. Getting bored doesn't happen too often though.

I've ghosted quite a few people in the past for various reasons. Mainly because the contact was more destructive and had little to no beneficial aspect. I still keep in loose contact with people who are rather neutral in that comparable measurement.

When I triangulate all this, I conclude that other people and objects are perceived as distractions, which is not always a bad thing. Whatever it is I do most frequently and get the most enjoyment from requires focus and no distraction. And then I lose all sense of time and a whole day passes.

However, I do require a little distraction now and then, so sometimes the outside world is welcome. I don't really get bothered too much if someone tries contacting me.

And that is all I've got.
 
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I feel like I have a ton of stuff to say about this, but I don't really know where to start. I'm not sure whether to just talk about INTP traits, or my own personal experience. When it comes to my own experience, I really can't say anything too definitive.

I have the same tendency to not really miss people if they are not around as well. Except for those times where I just met someone that really makes me feel something. Or sometimes, I'll get a nagging thought coming from the back of my head urging me to sympathize with someone's adversity if I know they are going through hard times. Or sometimes, I have moments where I just get a little bored, and I'll call someone up. Getting bored doesn't happen too often though.

I've ghosted quite a few people in the past for various reasons. Mainly because the contact was more destructive and had little to no beneficial aspect. I still keep in loose contact with people who are rather neutral in that comparable measurement.

When I triangulate all this, I conclude that other people and objects are perceived as distractions, which is not meant as a bad thing. Whatever it is I do most frequently and get the most enjoyment from requires focus and no distraction. And then I lose all sense of time and a whole day passes.

However, I do require a little distraction now and then, so sometimes the outside world is welcome. I don't really get bothered too much if someone tries contacting me.

And that is all I've got.

Yes. This. INTP Ghost...

I don't know why exactly but I don't like the fact that when I check my cell phone log 9 out of 10 calls are initiated by me; others generally don't initiate contact with me. not sure why this is exactly? Perhaps there would a way to change this without while still staying true to my inner INTP self? Maybe not...

I do have about 5 or 6 very close friends and a supportive extended family I keep in touch with...
 

Urakro

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Yes. This. INTP Ghost...

I don't know why exactly but I don't like the fact that when I check my cell phone log 9 out of 10 calls are initiated by me; others generally don't initiate contact with me. not sure why this is exactly? Perhaps there would a way to change this without while still staying true to my inner INTP self? Maybe not...

I do have about 5 or 6 very close friends and a supportive extended family I keep in touch with...

No, not quite.

I've never really analysed my calls and I'm unsure of the incoming-outgoing ratio. My social networking page is almost dead, and people have dropped off because of that. But that was my intention. I only use it as a convenient way to pm 1 or 2 people occasionally.

I don't have a desperate need for contact, but on the chance it comes it doesn't bother me either.

Except in some cases.
 
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I feel like I have a ton of stuff to say about this, but I don't really know where to start.

Same here :(

Cheese i relate a lot to your "personal experience". My parents always told me stories about how detached and avoidant i was as a little kid. Eg. At any given moment, I would suddenly take off and run away(going out with me meant ending up in a search party)
mom says it took me a long time to register that my parents are my parents, but im pretty sure that's not true. Eventhough i barely remember anything from early childhood at this point, I still recall looking at my parents and understanding that they're more special than other people...its just that their absence did not make me panic like most kids would.

Over the years, I have sort of picked up on the rituals of partnerships. I do what I'm supposed to do and say so as to not give people the impression they're unwanted. A lot of it feels empty though.

I don't really know what to write. A lot of what I wanted to say has already been said by others here
 

Yellow

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..mom says it took me a long time to register that my parents are my parents..
I was told the same -- that I was never comforted by my mother's attempts to soothe me as a baby (quite the opposite, she claimed that I screamed the most when she held me).

Perhaps if I had had a sweeter demeanor as an infant, things would have been different. She might have felt affection rather than obligation toward me. This is another of those situations where it's hard to tell whether your environment shaped the beginnings of personality, or if your personality guided your reactions to your environment.

Are we born socially impaired? Or were we made that way by our early childhood?
 
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I was told the same -- that I was never comforted by my mother's attempts to soothe me as a baby (quite the opposite, she claimed that I screamed the most when she held me).

Perhaps if I had had a sweeter demeanor as an infant, things would have been different. She might have felt affection rather than obligation toward me. This is another of those situations where it's hard to tell whether your environment shaped the beginnings of personality, or if your personality guided your reactions to your environment.

Are we born socially impaired? Or were we made that way by our early childhood?

My mother loathed me. I believe its the SJ-NP conflict. Once an SJ judges no worth in another person (especially the NPs in their life) you are nothing to them. In fact, less than nothing because you've become an annoyance to them; a true bother and clog in their artery of life.

Funny enough this same phenomenon occurred with my ESFJ ex wife. Once she decided I was just plain irrelevant/ invalid as a human being (stemming from my INTP behavior) *boom* that was it...looking back post forensic analysis...

Wondering if this same SJ-NP incompatibility was at play in other INTP's mother-child and/or father-child relationships?
 
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Perhaps if I had had a sweeter demeanor as an infant, things would have been different. She might have felt affection rather than obligation toward me. This is another of those situations where it's hard to tell whether your environment shaped the beginnings of personality, or if your personality guided your reactions to your environment
"Perhaps if I had had a sweeter demeanor as an infant, things would have been different." I think about that often.
This is pretty embarrassing to admit, but my mother had to lecture me throughout childhood on things like how important it is to run up to dad and hug him whenever he comes home from work.I don't know how things like that come naturally to people, i literally had to learn them. I know i felt infinite tenderness for my dad even then...but...*shrug*
I had a secure, happy and untroubled childhoood...so I can't help but conclude that the problem stems from me

Even now I have to push myself to show people I care about them, these things are supposed to come naturally to people but for me it feels like i have to push myself
 
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My mother loathed me. I believe its the SJ-NP conflict. Once an SJ judges no worth in another person (especially the NPs in their life) you are nothing to them. In fact, less than nothing because you've become an annoyance to them; a true bother and clog in their artery of life.

Funny enough this same phenomenon occurred with my ESFJ ex wife. Once she decided I was just plain irrelevant/ invalid as a human being (stemming from my INTP behavior) *boom* that was it...looking back post forensic analysis...

Wondering if this same SJ-NP incompatibility was at play in other INTP's mother-child and/or father-child relationships?

(apologies in advance for quoting myself. Yes I am a blowhard and full of myself typically but truly it is atypical for me to actually quote myself :))

I woke up in the middle of the night just now thinking about the following, as it relates to the quote above, and I couldn't go back to sleep:

Being an xNxP in this world as its run and dominated by xSxJs is like having the xNxP soul lowered into a swimming pool of piranhas again and again. Each time the first xSxJ piranha takes a chunk of soul off of the xNxP's being, the xNxP is pulled vertical out of the pool for just enough time that the xNxP catches his/ her breath for the next bloody dunking. Upon reaching consciousness and self awareness at adulthood, the xNxP is fully aware that this is the process of life for them. The process of dunking and then pulled out again is repeated again and again, faster and faster until there is nothing left of the xNxP's soul. Then they die internally and the flame on the candle of their soul is blown out. They are technically living in terms of physiology, but dead inside.

xSxJs naturally hate xNxPs. We are a complete bother to them. We are worse than an annoyance. We are a clog in their artery of life. And yes xSxJs pretty much run the external world in which xNxPs are stuck.

The real thorny nature of the problem is that xSxJs lack the capacity to understand why they hate xNxPs and want to devour their souls...and of course the xSxJ typically lacks the insight/ ability to reverse this destructive impulse.

Ans all the while the xNxP's soul is being consumed by the xSxJ feeding frenzy, the xNxP be like, "whoa shit! hold on you crazy bastards! I'm not that bad...really I'm not!"

Then...they are gone (ironically Zerk just posted prior to this post and it reminded me to not post anything which would disgust the squeamish: I was going to link a video of a live cow being shredded but instead will link this one of a copier being shredded instead):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqiY59iDgRQ

In my case both my own mother and my ex are ESFJs. I don't know what sort of freak show the Gods had in mind when they paired me up with my particular personality with my mother and ex but at the very least it must have been quite the soap opera for them to watch over the years. Surely, for the sake of their amusement, it hasn't been a boring show. Why me though? Couldn't fate have picked on someone else?
 

Jennywocky

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Jenny, since my ex left and post divorce I've had family members comment that I'm returning to my old self. They've said its been remarkable to see me return to life after distancing myself from that horrid underdeveloped ESFJ. They say it was like after I got married I just kinda disappeared off the radar about a decade ago and our of sight down a rabbit hole if you know what I mean. Literally and figuratively in terms of not being myself. Not the same with you at all post divorce?

Uh... my family is pretty much all SJs and religious, except for my kids? So why would it be similar? It seems like it would almost be the opposite of your situation. The "me" I know as the "real/sane" me was rejected as the "real me" that my family wanted me to be, partly because I made the mistake of adapting my whole life on the surface to fit in... Once I was more honest (the me that only the closest of my friends knew), I got booted.

(There's something to be said about flexing in order to minimize conflict, but unfortunately it can set up unreasonable expectations if you flex too much, and prevents people from knowing who you really are. My dad's alcoholism didn't help either; he destabilized things so much that I felt I couldn't afford to destabilize them further, growing up. That shit has so much more ramifications than just the obvious ones, it really mucks people up for a long time by forcing them to embrace behaviors that minimize short-term problems but create long-term ones.)

My mom is adaptable too. Once she realized it didn't mean I was going to pull away from her, and that I loved and looked after my kids despite the instabilities incurred, she no longer had issues. She just needed some experience with the normal "me." And my cousins who are not religious, well, I actually get along better with now. But we still usually don't talk.

I was told the same -- that I was never comforted by my mother's attempts to soothe me as a baby (quite the opposite, she claimed that I screamed the most when she held me).

Perhaps if I had had a sweeter demeanor as an infant, things would have been different. She might have felt affection rather than obligation toward me. This is another of those situations where it's hard to tell whether your environment shaped the beginnings of personality, or if your personality guided your reactions to your environment.

Are we born socially impaired? Or were we made that way by our early childhood?

...Chicken or the egg, all over again. Behavior is a reinforcing loop. What broke the loop to start with? (or prevented a loop from forming?) It's unclear. If your mother had been more patient, would you have adapted to her? If you had been more easily placated, would the bond have strengthened? Unclear.

For me, I was very quiet and easy. But as I got older, when my mother started to latch onto me due to her issues in the marriage with my dad (alcoholism + personality differences), I immediately started feeling smothered/hindered and pulled way back. It was many many years before we actually were able to engage (and I'm talking maybe my mid-30's and later). It helped once she stopped being so clingy.
 

QuickTwist

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This seems to be a hot topic for talking about personal relationships.

Coming from a standpoint that has no bias concerning my MBTI type, I would like to share my perspective on things. I believe it will be a learning experience for myself since I don't have all of this mapped out already in terms of my relating to people/things as I have grown up or as a child.

I would first like to start off by saying something pretty contrary to what most of you have said. I actually deeply desire a real and intimate relationship with people. Throughout my life I have not had many friendships and a lot of the ones I have had have in fact been very close relationships at least on my end of things. I never quite felt like I belonged anywhere - either from when I sat down at the lunch table in grade school, to aimlessly walking around the halls of my school lonely during middle school to sitting by myself during lunch in hs just waiting for someone to be even remotely interested in me. I can't blame people really. You don't make friends by not engaging with people, its just unrealistic to think a group of people that is already established would be willing to seek out an unknown person in hopes that that person would have something beneficial to offer the group. I have always had a deep mistrust of people that largely stems from wrongful punishment from my parents or just an overall unnurturing atmosphere combined with no direction given to me by my parents. I felt like I could never fully open up to people and since I couldn't, I couldn't have the kind of intimate relationship I longed for with them. My relationships have pretty much been few and far in between. The ones I have had have all but ended because the were founded on a lack of commonality between us and it was really just a matter of time before the relationship dissipated. That along with the fact that people generally try not to associate with a person who has just had a mental breakdown and hence is then labeled as a crazy person would be another reason why people suddenly felt no need or desire to befriend me.

In terms of my relationship with my parents, I don't think I ever felt a great closeness with them. For so much of my life (and even to this day) I imagine how a parent is suppose to act and what they are suppose to teach their children and I always felt they fell extremely short of how I would imagine a parent would do such and such to both bolster their child's confidence all the while giving them the skill that they would need to succeed in the real world. I always felt like I received none of that from them and that to a large extent they failed me as my parents.

In terms of objectifying a relationship, its really been a mixed bag for me. While I don't on a regular basis think about other people and understand where they are coming from in a detailed conscious way I do still feel the need to share some of my inner thoughts with others if for nothing else than to see if they would be inclined to reciprocate that sentiment and share part of themselves with me as well. Despite being in relationships where I have had the chance to share deeply with people and have that be reciprocated, I guess I feel it is never quite enough and even in the midst of it it always felt somewhat empty like there really was no substance there in the first place. I really only have one friend irl and I don't see him much because I really have no desire to share company with people. I do have my brother and we talk frequently so my social needs are met by conversing with someone who, to some extent, understands what my life has been like. We frequently talk about our parents and their shortcomings and its something that we do have quite a commonality with each other.
 

Anling

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I certainly have a problem with putting out of my mind anything that is not immediately present. I just don't think about most of those everyday things or social obligations unless there is something to remind me of them. It makes some things like remembering to schedule meetings or appointments harder than it needs to be because I just don't think about them. I will have a vague recollection that I need to do this or that, but unless it is pressing, like an acute toothache, I just put it off as something that isn't important right now.

I don't think it is a lack of object constancy, so much as these things, people, or tasks are far down the list of what our minds choose to be occupied with.
 

Foofmonger

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Whilst I do not lack object constancy, the intense mental focus I exhibit tends to take priority over whatever else may be in my immediate vicinity.

I have little issues holding down personal relationships, but yes, I can be distant emotionally. I have learned that the best way to properly manage this is to actually devote time and mental energy towards your partner (or friend, or relative).

I would be wary of trying to prove absolute correlation. I have never had an issue with object constancy. I believe that at least as I understand, it isn't an issue of object constancy at all, but rather one of mental priority.
 

Puffy

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I relate to a lot of this but I'm too tired to pick and choose out the particular elements right now. It helps confirm my sense that I don't think this forum has ever really been about "INTPs" (as we're not all INTPs, assuming typology holds) but rather people of different types who relate over a common social experience.

This is personal and potentially off-topic so spoilered:

I feel I wrote overlapping material in Yellow's coping strategies thread so just self-reflecting on a fresh angle of some of the related problems.

1. I was very interior from a very young age. I never had problems socialising per se, as much as I felt no internal need for friendships. I lived in a very dreamy, self-contained world. An important feature of this world is that it was (and is now) "self-satisfying." I draw strength, security, energy, creativity, motivation from this world and find my own company to be satisfying in of itself. I therefore had no motivation to be with others, or to adopt their customs as a child and teenager. In my case this was taken to a hilarious degree in terms of detachment from the world. I had shit hygiene, dietary, clothing and exercise habits, purely out of naievity. Cooking, driving, DIY, sport, anything that involved external interaction stressed me out to high degrees. I couldn't do it.

I have in recent years improved tremendously on all these points.

I quickly learned in the company of others that they did not relate to this world, and that actually for me to relate to them and socially be with them I had to temporarily sever my own connection to my internal world. In the company of others I stop being myself, and become alienated from my source of strength. I hence cultivated avoidant social characteristics, that sometimes border on schizoid behaviour (I have gone for 3+ months before without any social communication, and little feeling of loneliness. If I am connected to myself, and no desire for connection arises, I am invincible.)

2. I for a long time hated the fact I had a body, and pretended to myself that I was asexual. Not out of self-hatred. I just wanted to be pure consciousness -- the pure essence of my internal world. Even today I take to hard psychadelics and meditation practices partly out of the "Relief" of exiting the constraints of the body. I think I will love VR.

All of this is also strongly rooted in my own personal aversion to sex intimated in yellow's thread. I first experienced sexual feelings quite late (age 13), and for me it was an acute personal crises. The desire of sex:

A) meant for the first time my desires could only be fulfilled in relation to people whose presence I had only experienced as violation
(it is very telling that when I had my first epiphany/meltdown 5 years ago, when people kept trying to check on me I became panic-stricken and told them they were raping me.)
B) meant for the first time my desires could only be fulfilled through learning a language of the body I hated, felt dislocated and alienated from.

Having these desires I entered the social sphere at a late stage, and found myself completely alienated from its customs. For the first time in life I hated myself, and thought I was totally disfigured and inadequate because I could not relate, where I was otherwise happy. Rather than accepting my own prior state of self-satisfaction and waiting for a suitable partner I could relate to, I tried very hard to adopt other's customs to please them to the point that their adoption disfigured me and alienated me from myself. It was the "epiphany" of this that led to my meltdown five years ago, and I have significantly grown since then.

One major thing for me is that through a few close friends, I learnt that my "internal world" is not intrinsically asocial, but can connect with and be a mutual fountain of strength with another's. There are a few, who for the first time I felt a natural intuitive, wordless connection with. I've come to understand that, in a healthier state, I am essentially polyamorous, as I can not help but love any person this connection arises with, male or female, and such a response feels perfectly natural to me.

I feel very sure I will be able to tackle my sexual complex as I understand it better now. It is simply the case that I have wired myself to respond to any sign of intimacy in terms of self-defence because of the above, and so I just have to work consistently at undoing that response. That response is not my identity, and so my will shall shatter it, and bear any emotional upheaval it forces on me in the process.
 

JimJambones

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Something tells me we all share a common ancestor.

It is easy to not see someone for a very long time. I easily get involved in researching, reading, or whatever else I'm interested in and before long a lot of time has passed and I start to feel awkward initiating anything. I tend to rely on other people reaching out to me more than I probably should. They probably think I'm not interested, but that certainly isn't true. It's just too easy for me to be alone. I think better that way.

I'm currently raising kids and spend a lot of time with them. I don't think I'll have any trouble reaching out to them when they move out someday.
 

JimJambones

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One thing my mom told me about when I was little was that I was perfectly content to play all by myself. I would disappear for hours in the toy room. . I was told that I was a very quiet, shy, imaginative kid. When my sister was born, I hardly paid any attention to her, although I have pictures of myself hugging her.

My mom just left me to do my own thing and that just reinforced not really needing anyone. I really didn't have a father figure the first few years of my life. Anyways, I still had quite a few friends and played with them, but I think I was always more fine on my own than anyone else I knew.
 

QuickTwist

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I relate to a lot of this but I'm too tired to pick and choose out the particular elements right now. It helps confirm my sense that I don't think this forum has ever really been about "INTPs" (as we're not all INTPs, assuming typology holds) but rather people of different types who relate over a common social experience.

This is personal and potentially off-topic so spoilered:

I feel I wrote overlapping material in Yellow's coping strategies thread so just self-reflecting on a fresh angle of some of the related problems.

1. I was very interior from a very young age. I never had problems socialising per se, as much as I felt no internal need for friendships. I lived in a very dreamy, self-contained world. An important feature of this world is that it was (and is now) "self-satisfying." I draw strength, security, energy, creativity, motivation from this world and find my own company to be satisfying in of itself. I therefore had no motivation to be with others, or to adopt their customs as a child and teenager. In my case this was taken to a hilarious degree in terms of detachment from the world. I had shit hygiene, dietary, clothing and exercise habits, purely out of naievity. Cooking, driving, DIY, sport, anything that involved external interaction stressed me out to high degrees. I couldn't do it.

I have in recent years improved tremendously on all these points.

I quickly learned in the company of others that they did not relate to this world, and that actually for me to relate to them and socially be with them I had to temporarily sever my own connection to my internal world. In the company of others I stop being myself, and become alienated from my source of strength. I hence cultivated avoidant social characteristics, that sometimes border on schizoid behaviour (I have gone for 3+ months before without any social communication, and little feeling of loneliness. If I am connected to myself, and no desire for connection arises, I am invincible.)

2. I for a long time hated the fact I had a body, and pretended to myself that I was asexual. Not out of self-hatred. I just wanted to be pure consciousness -- the pure essence of my internal world. Even today I take to hard psychadelics and meditation practices partly out of the "Relief" of exiting the constraints of the body. I think I will love VR.

All of this is also strongly rooted in my own personal aversion to sex intimated in yellow's thread. I first experienced sexual feelings quite late (age 13), and for me it was an acute personal crises. The desire of sex:

A) meant for the first time my desires could only be fulfilled in relation to people whose presence I had only experienced as violation
(it is very telling that when I had my first epiphany/meltdown 5 years ago, when people kept trying to check on me I became panic-stricken and told them they were raping me.)
B) meant for the first time my desires could only be fulfilled through learning a language of the body I hated, felt dislocated and alienated from.

Having these desires I entered the social sphere at a late stage, and found myself completely alienated from its customs. For the first time in life I hated myself, and thought I was totally disfigured and inadequate because I could not relate, where I was otherwise happy. Rather than accepting my own prior state of self-satisfaction and waiting for a suitable partner I could relate to, I tried very hard to adopt other's customs to please them to the point that their adoption disfigured me and alienated me from myself. It was the "epiphany" of this that led to my meltdown five years ago, and I have significantly grown since then.

One major thing for me is that through a few close friends, I learnt that my "internal world" is not intrinsically asocial, but can connect with and be a mutual fountain of strength with another's. There are a few, who for the first time I felt a natural intuitive, wordless connection with. I've come to understand that, in a healthier state, I am essentially polyamorous, as I can not help but love any person this connection arises with, male or female, and such a response feels perfectly natural to me.

I feel very sure I will be able to tackle my sexual complex as I understand it better now. It is simply the case that I have wired myself to respond to any sign of intimacy in terms of self-defence because of the above, and so I just have to work consistently at undoing that response. That response is not my identity, and so my will shall shatter it, and bear any emotional upheaval it forces on me in the process.

If you've been through any kind of identity crisis while you were a child, you know how difficult sexual intimacy can be.
 

cheese

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^How does identity crisis relate to sexual intimacy?
 

Thurlor

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it isn't an issue of object constancy at all, but rather one of mental priority.

^ I think this is the best explanation.

Whilst most of these experiences resonate with me on some level, I know I don't lack object constancy.

I'm sure most of us have experienced the Tetris Effect which seems to imply that we don't lack object constancy.
 

QuickTwist

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^How does identity crisis relate to sexual intimacy?

Because if you are not comfortable with yourself, how can you expect to be comfortable with someone else. IDK, maybe its not accurate..
 
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