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Black Panther

Cognisant

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I quite liked it.

The apparent mishmash of advanced technology and woven baskets immediately struck me as odd, as did how a single city nation could have the industrial infrastructure to manufacture various kinds of high tech aircraft , but I came to the conclusion that they're effectively operating on a post-singularity economy. When you can make anything using nanotechnology I reckon that it would lose its appeal pretty quickly, you can't impress anyone by having the latest smartphone when everyone gets it as soon as you do because everything you own is made of programmable matter which just received an update. Instead fashion in Wakanda is essentially the pursuit of authenticity, handmade goods are more expensive and accordingly more valuable because they take someone's time and effort to make. Also from the Wakandan perspective the modern western world is culturally degenerate and they're afraid of becoming like that, what we call civilized (i.e. democracies rather than monarchies decided by ritualistic combat) they see as being weak and morally corrupt.
 

Jennywocky

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Aside from the silliness of having a regime determined by ritualistic combat (because the process of selecting/deposing rulers should reflect the culture's priorities, and yet here apparently it does not in practical terms) and a few other blips, it's one of the first MCU movies that left me thinking about how I should live and/or change how I live. There were hints of moral complexity in Civil War, in terms of what decisions we make and how various sides might be more than just binary moral conflicts, and this took it another step forward; Coogler definitely stepped up, but Creed and Fruitvale Station were also pretty great.

Despite the buzz (which always gets my hackles up a bit...), a decent film.
 

Auburn

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Went to watch it last night after seeing cog's recommendation
(i'm like, Cog liked it? ...must be good)

I liked it also.
I agree with the idea being how modern civilizations stray away from the right path. James Cameron's Avatar had a similar feeling to it, where "advanced" (as westerners see it) is actually a move away from what might be more inherently aligned to human needs.

Humans are tribal; humans are happiest when living in a certain organizational structure that symbolically and ethically reflects our archetypal imprint. Living in a big metropolis where everything you do for work is digital/mechanical and abstracted away (i.e. no hand-crafting) from personal meaning or accomplishment, and where you're a rat on a wheel and where your affiliation to your parent culture is impersonal.... creates soul sickness. Soul sickness breeds mental illness, meaninglessness, depression, addiction (see: rat park). We need 'narrative' in our lives and a personal connection to our culture; to feel value and to give value to our own lives and that of others.
 

QuickTwist

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Went to watch it last night after seeing cog's recommendation
(i'm like, Cog liked it? ...must be good)

I liked it also.
I agree with the idea being how modern civilizations stray away from the right path. James Cameron's Avatar had a similar feeling to it, where "advanced" (as westerners see it) is actually a move away from what might be more inherently aligned to human needs.

Humans are tribal; humans are happiest when living in a certain organizational structure that symbolically and ethically reflects our archetypal imprint. Living in a big metropolis where everything you do for work is digital/mechanical and abstracted away (i.e. no hand-crafting) from personal meaning or accomplishment, and where you're a rat on a wheel and where your affiliation to your parent culture is impersonal.... creates soul sickness. Soul sickness breeds mental illness, meaninglessness, depression, addiction (see: rat park). We need 'narrative' in our lives and a personal connection to our culture; to feel value and to give value to our own lives and that of others.
I have not watched the video, but I think this is a fairly decent post in what it says about humanity. Only thing I would say different is that I don't think these things would lead to the things that Auburn talks about and would just say it leads to humans being ineffective.
 

Pyropyro

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Aside from the silliness of having a regime determined by ritualistic combat (because the process of selecting/deposing rulers should reflect the culture's priorities, and yet here apparently it does not in practical terms) (...)
What if we do ritualistic combat each elections but the voters get to vote what arms the candidates can use for each round? Things coming from their mouths are BS anyways. Poll losers get a set of weak items depending on their position such as bamboo or bronze weapons while winners get steel and titanium ones.

Haven't watched the movie yet but your reviews tell me this is a good one.
 

sushi

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why does it have so many oscar nominations?
 

Hadoblado

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I really liked Wakanda and I liked most of Killmonger (at some points it felt like they made him more of an asshole just so the crowd didn't forget who they were going for). I liked that it there was a more interesting philosophical/political struggle. I liked the overall themes and the SJW in me likes the representation in hero movies.

But I think it was over-rated. The plot was near identical to the average half of Thor: Ragnorok. The power set was inconsistent and removed stakes. The supporting characters were mostly forgettable. The graphics were garbage compared to other big Marvel films, and the fights were pretty dull too.

I'd put it at 7/10ish. That might put it in the top 10 Marvel films, but it'd be scraping.
 

JohnnyLawrence

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Black panther could be seen as problematic because in the modern world we are not supposed to support ethno-nationalist states

For example nazi germany is criticised for building an ethno-nationalist state and wakanda could be seen as an ethno-nationalist state

israel also could be seen as a modern example of an attempt at an ethno-nationalist state

Wakanda doesn't want mass immigration because it fears it will harm the nation and that view has modern day parallels in the dispute over trumps wall
 

Jennywocky

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Aside from the silliness of having a regime determined by ritualistic combat (because the process of selecting/deposing rulers should reflect the culture's priorities, and yet here apparently it does not in practical terms) (...)
What if we do ritualistic combat each elections but the voters get to vote what arms the candidates can use for each round? Things coming from their mouths are BS anyways. Poll losers get a set of weak items depending on their position such as bamboo or bronze weapons while winners get steel and titanium ones.
"You, dear sir -- you must defend yourself with strawmen, , projection, rationalization, and metaphor. Wield them well.

"And as for you, the worthy opponent, I shall give you a choice: This 80lb two-headed battle axe, or this gas-powered chainsaw."
 

Hadoblado

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Black panther could be seen as problematic because in the modern world we are not supposed to support ethno-nationalist states

For example nazi germany is criticised for building an ethno-nationalist state and wakanda could be seen as an ethno-nationalist state

israel also could be seen as a modern example of an attempt at an ethno-nationalist state

Wakanda doesn't want mass immigration because it fears it will harm the nation and that view has modern day parallels in the dispute over trumps wall
This doesn't make sense though. Wakanda being ethno-nationalist was not endorsed by the movie, it was a plot point. The protagonist was initially conflicted about whether it was the right thing, and through character development grows to reject it and defeat the antagonist who endorsed it. The movie is basically progressive propaganda.
 

JohnnyLawrence

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This doesn't make sense though. Wakanda being ethno-nationalist was not endorsed by the movie, it was a plot point. The protagonist was initially conflicted about whether it was the right thing, and through character development grows to reject it and defeat the antagonist who endorsed it. The movie is basically progressive propaganda.
so you're saying that wakanda opens its borders?

I haven't seen the movie so i only know the rough plot points
 

Hadoblado

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It's more complicated than open-borders.

The city is cloaked from the world. Literally invisible. They resources surpassing any other nation on Earth and they choose to stay hidden and not intervene. Black Panther is about how this is changed. This includes bringing in people from other nations, but also foreign aid.

Image result for black panther anti-democracy


By the end of the movie, none of the above talking points remain unchallenged. In the later infinity war movie, wakanda is used as the staging ground to help protect the world from an invading alien force.
 

JohnnyLawrence

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It's more complicated than open-borders.

The city is cloaked from the world. Literally invisible. They resources surpassing any other nation on Earth and they choose to stay hidden and not intervene. Black Panther is about how this is changed. This includes bringing in people from other nations, but also foreign aid.

Image result for black panther anti-democracy


By the end of the movie, none of the above talking points remain unchallenged. In the later infinity war movie, wakanda is used as the staging ground to help protect the world from an invading alien force.
yes but that holographic screen IS the wall

my understanding is that they agonise over whether or not to help other africans but decide that they shouldn't?
 

Hadoblado

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They decide that they should. The movie ends with them opening up community centers or w/e in underpriveliged black American ghettos indicating that they've taken a global stance.

Maybe you should just watch the movie?
 

JohnnyLawrence

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They decide that they should. The movie ends with them opening up community centers or w/e in underpriveliged black American ghettos indicating that they've taken a global stance.

Maybe you should just watch the movie?
so correct me if i'm wrong but what you are saying is that they don't let immigrants into wakanda and instead decide to create foreign aid funds for outreach into other countries?
 

Hadoblado

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They let non-wakandians into wakanda. I can't remember to what extent. The actual physical border wasn't really that emphasised since it was invisible? It wasn't about keeping people out, because nobody knew about it so nobody was trying to get in. Just watch it then you can tell me.

Where are you getting your info from? Sargon? NoBS? BPS?
 

JohnnyLawrence

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They let non-wakandians into wakanda. I can't remember to what extent. The actual physical border wasn't really that emphasised since it was invisible? It wasn't about keeping people out, because nobody knew about it so nobody was trying to get in. Just watch it then you can tell me.

Where are you getting your info from? Sargon? NoBS? BPS?
none of the above

i don't agree that the hologram wasn't to keep people out. It was created to hide the nation so that people wouldn't want to get in. Therefore it was created to keep people out

so just to be clear for the record....the wakandans drop their borders and allow anyone and everyone to enter wakanda whenever they wish?
 

Hadoblado

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Ummm...

Don't you feel as if you've changed your stance a little?

Initially you thought that blackpanther was about a supporting an ethnostate. Now you're putting me on trial because they might have anything less than a complete absence of borders (a position I don't myself support).


Go watch the movie and see for yourself.
 

Jennywocky

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Yeah, it seems to be a waste to analyze a creative work when some of the people haven't actually watched it and/or have only a vague idea of even the general plot. What's the basis for interaction/communication at that point?

I do think details and context matters, all that being said. Wakanda isn't a perfect country. BP discovers his father who he highly respected also made at least one large dubious moral choice. Flawed people can do good; good people can make serious errors in judgments; extremists aren't always acting out of total irrationality; and so forth.

While it would be easy to compare it to the United States, that's not really the case. the USA is much larger and was always portrayed as a haven for those fleeing from authoritarian governments, a melting pot where original nationality should not matter, a place where people could come and build their lives. One reason the whole "shut the borders" debate is so intense is because, while typically everyone agrees there needs to be a filtering process, the current attempt at implementation seems to run counter to the spirit of the USA historically... and we have also been a superpower for a century or two. We've been militarily powerful and at times the watchdog of the world, even if that position might not be a smart one.

Wakanda is a small African country that has hidden itself as a form of protection from other infringing countries, so that they could develop a utopia in peace using resources they would have certain been destroyed for (perhaps even by the USA) if they had admitted they possessed them. They were never a superpower, and in the time of their building their capabilities, they were vulnerable; now they have reached a position of strength but were afraid to engage due to the potential cost and destabilizing their nation for their citizens / drawing fire and negative attention. Immigration was never part of their national identity per se, their dilemma is different -- they are choosing whether they want to stay safely in their cocoon to only benefit themselves or whether they want to risk vulnerability by engage the outer world and go through the hard work of arguing and offering what they have to give.

They are actually different narratives.
 

Serac

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I just watched the trailer for this one. Lol, so I understand "black panther" is actually a black guy, and it's all about black people, and the trailer uses only rap music. I probably don't know what I'm talking about since I haven't watched any of the superhero stuff, but why can't it just be a superhero that happes to be black and then do the usual superhero stuff?
 

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@Serac It certainly could be. I wish movie casters could just be... race neutral? Like, pick the best person for the role regardless of whether they're black, white, purple, etc.

In this case, though, I think it was actually a good choice (originally made by the comic book dudes). A character's race can create an interesting plot point, and Black Panther definitely piqued my interest with its exploration of traditional African culture, Africa's political and social relation to the rest of the world, and black separatism. In this case, given the plot and themes, it made more sense for the cast to be primarily black and I think that this is one of those times where I actually agree with purposefully creating diversity (black cast) instead of being race-neutral.

That being said, Marvel's movies overall are decent, but they definitely lean more on the action sequence/SFX side than the thought-provoking one. I certainly don't disdain that; I think their mix is what makes them so broadly appealing and successful. But I personally prefer the X-Men movies, which don't seem quite as frantic and which focus more on character development and internal conflicts imo. And I think they do a better job of incorporating interesting elements of various cultures; Marvel had to go out of its way to create an (almost) all-black, black-centric movie to explore African/African-American cultures, whereas the X-Men movies seem to more consistently sate that interest even without making it their primary focus.


Other than the race/culture element, hmm. The plot seemed somewhat weak, but the tech in it was pretty neat. That's about all I have to say about it; I think it was fairly average as far as Marvel movies go, probably not their best but certainly not their worst (actually, I didn't really like Infinity War, but that's a different story).
 

Hadoblado

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He could be Serac, but why should he be? Why is it a problem?

BlackPanther murdered the boxoffice (top 10 of all time). It did better than the established Marvel bighitters like iron man and spider man (with the exception of the entire avengers ensemble). People obviously want to see representation, because it really wasn't that good.
 

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My objection and (forgive me if I misinterpret, @Serac) probably his is to that desire to see representation. There is literally nothing wrong with having ethnically diverse characters (and it's a more accurate representation of the world we live in), but why must people push for representation just for the sake of representation? Whenever a good book/movie/whatever comes out that has a diverse set of characters, I see a tendency to focus on that rather than the work's own merits. I'd rather we just normalized diversity by not making such a big deal out of it.

And then there's the phenomenon where somebody decides to make something "diverse" just for its own sake, and the work sucks but people still praise it for that. The "A Wrinkle in Time" movie, an adaptation of a book I quite liked as a child, comes to mind.

EDIT: I understand that this diversity is part of a marketing strategy to current popular tastes, but I am objecting to those tastes even if they might be "well-intentioned".

EDIT EDIT: Honestly, from personal observation this mostly seems true in the US:

Serac said:
blacks have their own superhero character, blacks mostly do stuff with other blacks, and blacks predominately enjoy rap music.
A similar statement could be used to generalize most minority cultures over here, though.
 

Serac

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just looked weird to me at a first glance. One would think that if the goal is to eliminate race segregation in US, it's a bad idea to make a movie telling young impressionable minds that: blacks have their own superhero character, blacks mostly do stuff with other blacks, and blacks predominately enjoy rap music. But once again, I don't really know the backstory of this character. I assume it would make the whole thing look more reasonable.

And mind you, people, this is coming from someone who is at the very least agnostic when it comes to social-science theories like microaggressions and various subliminal phenomena that affects people's minds.
 

Hadoblado

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I can't remember any rap music in the movie, but there might have been some when they were covering the ghettos. It's linked to the theme of the movie, so it would be appropriate (the antagonist is someone of Wakandan ancestry who was raised in a black ghetto, who felt that wakanda should basically give weapons to blacks all over the world to overthrow their white oppressors). So to have music that is representative of those areas, to contrast with the traditional percussive music elsewhere in the movie, would make sense.

Re: @CatGoddess
If the movie was bad, nobody'd care about the representation. As is, I think its ratings were a bit inflated, but it was still a decent superhero flick. The reason that people push for representation is because the relationship between Hollywood and culture is intercausal. The things we are immersed in influence us. The fact is that due to factors beyond racism, white men are given the lion's share of role models. Even if captain marvel and black panther are progressive, that's two movies out of around 20 with non-white male leads from Marvel. That's not realistic and sort of aims their product too much at a specific audience.
If you don't believe that this sort of thing makes a difference, that's fine, but can you see why the people who do believe it makes a difference would think it important?
 

JohnnyLawrence

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Ummm...

Don't you feel as if you've changed your stance a little?

Initially you thought that blackpanther was about a supporting an ethnostate. Now you're putting me on trial because they might have anything less than a complete absence of borders (a position I don't myself support).


Go watch the movie and see for yourself.
i don't feel i have changed my stance

my perception from what i'd read was that wakanda did not open its borders to everyone which would make it an ethno-nationalist state

so i'm just trying to ask folk if that is the case?

I'm not putting you 'on trial' i'm just asking anyone who has watched the movie: did wakanda open its borders to everyone or not?
 

JohnnyLawrence

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just looked weird to me at a first glance. One would think that if the goal is to eliminate race segregation in US, it's a bad idea to make a movie telling young impressionable minds that: blacks have their own superhero character, blacks mostly do stuff with other blacks, and blacks predominately enjoy rap music. But once again, I don't really know the backstory of this character. I assume it would make the whole thing look more reasonable.
unity is out these days!

It used to be about building worker solidarity so that the workers could challenge the monopoly on control of the capitalist class

But then 'identity politics' or 'identiarian politics' changed the political landscape

It has taught young people to not see themselves as working class people struggling against the oppression of the capitalist class

Instead it splits the workers up into more and more categories for example: women, gay, trans, black, jewish, white, hispanic, asian, muslim and so on and it tells those young people that they should all fight only for the narrow interests of their own identity group not for the wider 'workers'

In fact it encourages different sections of the workers to fight each other for example trans people are often against feminists and feminists are often against men and black people are often against white people and white people are often against muslim people and so on and that is all being encouraged by the media, education system and by progressive politicians who all use the same buzzwords

so to find 'progressive' hollywood pushing a movie that encourages a race consciousness instead of a class consciousness is just a sign of the times
 

Hadoblado

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I don't know the answer to that. But even if it were true that they didn't open their borders to everyone, that would not make them ethno-nationalist.

Firstly, they let in whites for certain, which seems to be the alt-right's leverage gone.

Secondly, the city itself is made up of five different ethnicities right from the very start.

Thirdly, it is ridiculous to hold them to the standard of having entirely open borders to consider them not an ethnostate.

If you think of wakanda as having a "wall" because it hides itself to keep people out, then, when at the end of the movie BP reveals its existence to the world, this should mean to you that the wall was taken down. Hence, it the movie is not problematic for the reasons you stated because it doesn't support ethnostates.
 

JohnnyLawrence

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Wakanda is a small African country that has hidden itself as a form of protection from other infringing countries, so that they could develop a utopia in peace using resources they would have certain been destroyed for (perhaps even by the USA) if they had admitted they possessed them. They were never a superpower, and in the time of their building their capabilities, they were vulnerable; now they have reached a position of strength but were afraid to engage due to the potential cost and destabilizing their nation for their citizens / drawing fire and negative attention. Immigration was never part of their national identity per se, their dilemma is different -- they are choosing whether they want to stay safely in their cocoon to only benefit themselves or whether they want to risk vulnerability by engage the outer world and go through the hard work of arguing and offering what they have to give.

They are actually different narratives.
but what about small european countries who are being pressured into loosening their border controls?

Are they not like wakanda in the sense you describe above?

You mention the potentially 'destabilizing' effects of mass immigration on wakanda if it opened its borders because that would then undermine its societal cohesion but does the US not have certain cultural values that have historically defined it as a nation?

does flooding lots of people in of different values and beliefs and cultures not threaten to destabilise it especially when we look at society now within the light of identity politics where people are all being encouraged to cluster together in competing factions?

Is that not just going to exacerbate that process and where do you see that leading?
 

JohnnyLawrence

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I don't know the answer to that. But even if it were true that they didn't open their borders to everyone, that would not make them ethno-nationalist.

Firstly, they let in whites for certain, which seems to be the alt-right's leverage gone.

Secondly, the city itself is made up of five different ethnicities right from the very start.

Thirdly, it is ridiculous to hold them to the standard of having entirely open borders to consider them not an ethnostate.

If you think of wakanda as having a "wall" because it hides itself to keep people out, then, when at the end of the movie BP reveals its existence to the world, this should mean to you that the wall was taken down. Hence, it the movie is not problematic for the reasons you stated because it doesn't support ethnostates.
other than the hologram what does it protect its borders with and how many white people does it let in?

are you speaking about a few diplomats or are you speaking about the creation of a multicultural society where millions of white people come in and form a voting demographic?
 

Hadoblado

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Tell me, what other superhero movies go into all the grisly details about how governments transition?

Actually don't, I don't care. You haven't seen the movie, you're mindlessly parroting bullshit you've heard on the internet. You need it to be something something ethnostate so you can continue to consume your preferred media with confidence. Leave me out of it from now on. Go away.
 

JohnnyLawrence

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Tell me, what other superhero movies go into all the grisly details about how governments transition?
its not really the issues it is dealing with that is so interesting but rather the context within which it approaches them

I'm an INFJ....i'm interested in the motivations behind things

Actually don't, I don't care. You haven't seen the movie, you're mindlessly parroting bullshit you've heard on the internet. You need it to be something something ethnostate so you can continue to consume your preferred media with confidence. Leave me out of it from now on. Go away.
so going by your emotional response should i assume that the answer is that it doesn't drop its borders and that it has more than a hologram and that it doesn't become multicultural?
 

Hadoblado

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You're not arguing in good faith. Go away.
 

JohnnyLawrence

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You're not arguing in good faith. Go away.
ah so if hollywood create a depiction of an ethno-nationalist state then that is ok

But if i ask questions about their depiction of an ethno-nationalist state then i'm the bad guy?

what makes you so sure that they are acting 'in good faith'?
 

Hadoblado

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When I give you an answer, you ignore it and move onto keep on trying to hammer home your point.

You say it's an ethnostate. I say it's not because it is made up of multiple ethnicities. You continue on as if I've said nothing.

You have done this for several things I've said. You start at your conclusion which you got from some website, and ignore everything said to the contrary. When I say I'm done, you continue on as if I have not said I'm done with the conversation.

Again I say, you're not arguing in good faith. I don't want to have a conversation in which the other person is going to assume their worldview at all costs without interactive dialogue. So please, leave me alone and stop baiting me.
 

JohnnyLawrence

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When I give you an answer, you ignore it and move onto keep on trying to hammer home your point.

You say it's an ethnostate. I say it's not because it is made up of multiple ethnicities. You continue on as if I've said nothing.

You have done this for several things I've said. You start at your conclusion which you got from some website, and ignore everything said to the contrary. When I say I'm done, you continue on as if I have not said I'm done with the conversation.

Again I say, you're not arguing in good faith. I don't want to have a conversation in which the other person is going to assume their worldview at all costs without interactive dialogue. So please, leave me alone and stop baiting me.
no i listened to your points but sought further clarification so i asked you new questions so that i could gain a more accurate view of the outlook of wakanda

You responded as if i was attacking you personally!

All i was doing was asking if wakanda maintained borders or not and to what degree it did that

I'm not sure why that is an issue?
 

JohnnyLawrence

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i read some blogs about the movie after i listened to some commentary on youtube about it. i heard a number of different views which have created a perception in my mind and i am trying to find out if that perception is accurate

the perception is that the kingdom was caught up in a moral quandry whether or not to open its borders to outsiders but decided that it would be too destructive to the kingdom to do so

i find that an interesting theme for a movie because of the context of our times where there is all this political debate over immigration and walls

Clearly the movie is making an attempt at some sort of social commentary and i'm just trying to understand it better
 

Adaire

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Then watch the damn movie.

Anyway, putting my mod hat on now. Hado has decided not to engage with you JL. Move on.
 

Jennywocky

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As far as representation goes, I have mixed feelings...or maybe not mixed, I'm just not that political but rationally I dont get why some folks are anti-diversity. I get why people don't want there to be representation just to have representation....but this isn't about employment or capability, it's about providing interesting diverse portrayals of heroes in stories, so then I also ask, why the hell not?

It's certainly not equal representation, because white male superheroes are typically overrepresented.

It's also important for people to see role models that they can identify with. Why shouldn't there be heroes of various nationalities, gender, identity, etc?

I didnt think Captain Marvel was in the top tier of MCU films, but I did think it was great to see all the girls and young women there with their families to see a woman who might inspire them.... just like Wonder Woman a year or two again. It's not a bad thing, and there is no rule of who a superhero is supposed to be either. Heaven forbid we have a movie with mainly black people (and not even African Americans , but non-American black people), considering how many non-white people are in the world and yet all of these films are typically about white Americans.
 

Hadoblado

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I've heard Captain Marvel is pretty bad. Not sure if I'll see it. Wonderwoman was worth seeing (though the third act was atrocious).

I have mixed feelings about representation when it's done poorly. The new ghostbusters seemed to miss what made the original good, substituting substance for identity. I also much prefer when they make characters that stand on their own (e.g. Captain Marvel, Black Widow, Wonderwoman) instead of taking a brand and shoe-horning representation into it (Superwoman/girl, Batwoman/girl, Lady Thor, She Hulk).
 

CatGoddess

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I don't think there's anything wrong with representation; it's just that critics focus on that to the exclusion of everything else. A movie with strong minority representation is never just a movie that people rate and like on its own merits, and while I suppose that's fine (different people watch movies for different reason, after all), I personally just find it annoying. Like, as an Asian female, the fact that some people completely overhyped Mantis in Guardians of the Galaxy II kind of made me cringe. I would've been cool with there being a hero who happened to be Asian and female, but people make such a big fuss over it that I don't want anything to do with it anymore.

So it's not so much a problem with what the filmmakers are doing (diverse cast) as it is with people's over-the-top reactions ("omg yassss #represent #girlpower" etc.).

Besides, maybe this is different for other people, but I don't tend to relate to characters more just because they share my race/gender. Honestly, I think that notion kind of furthers the idea that we're alien to each other because of race and gender divisions, that a woman can't relate to a man, that a Hispanic girl can't be inspired by a black woman (and that she "requires" another Hispanic woman in order to feel similar and as if she can accomplish great things).

I infinitely prefer it when characters can transcend those boundaries by virtue of their character traits - Drax, for instance, in Guardians of the Galaxy? I know a number of kids on the autism spectrum who think he's the bees knees because he's somewhat odd and socially inept but kicks ass regardless. It has nothing to do with his race or gender.
 

travelnjones

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My problem with Black Panther was I wanted more ass kicking action. That last fight should have been more epic between the two panthers.
 

crippli

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My problem with Black Panther was I wanted more ass kicking action. That last fight should have been more epic between the two panthers.
Whay more ass kicking? Why not love? Isn't love more exciting then ass kicking?
 

travelnjones

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In an action movie? I would watch something like a Hal Hartley film for that.

But generally I do not like movies dealing with interpersonal subjects. Emotional stories dealing with other are weird and confusing being an INTP.
 

crippli

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Sex is often a part of action movies. Like in an action movie one usually focuses on the sex aspect, and not the interpersonal subjects. Imo Love is Love, regardless of the part one peeks into.

What I wanted to know was if you would like that better then the ass kicking.

I don't see why love cant equal sex can't equal INTP. Any whay sex can't equal action. And why lame fighting action cant be bettered by Love.
 

JohnnyLawrence

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As far as representation goes, I have mixed feelings...or maybe not mixed, I'm just not that political but rationally I dont get why some folks are anti-diversity.
I think it depends what you mean by 'diversity'. Some people use language as a euphemism

So sometimes people can't be honest about their real intentions so they have to pretend that they are doing something for a moral reason to justify what they are doing in order to conceal their real intentions

So for example the ex UN migration chief (he's passed away now) peter sutherland said publically that the EU should undermine 'national homogeneity' among its member states. You can find that statement in a BBC piece here:

So what he is talking about there is social engineering. He is working for the UN which is a world government and he wants the EU to become a single superstate so in order to do that he wants to see national identity destroyed in the member states of the EU

The way he wants this done is through mass migrations of people that are shipped over the meditterenean sea by NGO boats and then distributed around the EU into member states through migrant quotas

This process has completely rocked europe and has seen a populist party take power in italy, the french yellow vest movement has taken to the streets in france over the rising costs of paying for that process and the british have voted to leave the EU altogether

So 'diversity' is not so popular in europe and what we can see is that it is pushed as part of social engineering by people with a particular ideological outlook. The question can then be asked if we agree or not with that ideological outlook and on the impacts of it?

So for example in the Uk we have had a massive scandal where organised muslim rape gangs have raped thousands of white british children up and down the country. The british police were too afraid to do anything about that for decades because they did not want to be accused of being 'racist'. We also have a knife crime epidemic now in london and its spreading to other cities. That epidemic has arisen out of mass immigration. The country is becoming less safe and tensions are rising. is that enrichment?

I get why people don't want there to be representation just to have representation....but this isn't about employment or capability, it's about providing interesting diverse portrayals of heroes in stories, so then I also ask, why the hell not?

It's certainly not equal representation, because white male superheroes are typically overrepresented.
isn't that reflective of society in the sense that the comic books generally come out of countries that are demographically majority white? Also perhaps the people who produce the comic books are majority white and have been creating the comic books for a predominatly white, male audience. So when seen in that light it makes sense

if women want female comic book characters then they should start writing comics with female characters. The same is true for any demographic group. be the change you want to see in the world as ghandi would say

It's also important for people to see role models that they can identify with. Why shouldn't there be heroes of various nationalities, gender, identity, etc?
yes role models are important but the same people arguing for 'diversity' are the same people who would tell you its not important for families to have a male role model within them

so if they don't really believe in male role models we can ask what kind of role models are they creating for society and what do they hope to achieve through that?

I didnt think Captain Marvel was in the top tier of MCU films, but I did think it was great to see all the girls and young women there with their families to see a woman who might inspire them.... just like Wonder Woman a year or two again. It's not a bad thing, and there is no rule of who a superhero is supposed to be either.
do you think that there is a lot of violence on TV?

do you think that in recent years there has been a push to create female characters carrying out a lot of physical violence?

is there any room in society for a discussion on the effect of all the depicted violence?

Heaven forbid we have a movie with mainly black people (and not even African Americans , but non-American black people), considering how many non-white people are in the world and yet all of these films are typically about white Americans.
i don't think the issue with black panther is that the majority of its characters are black

I think the issue is that it is depicting a society that is not diverse when we are constantly being told that diversity is good. It seems like a double standard
 

travelnjones

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That could be another movie but if I am watching a Marvel universe film I am expecting PG-13 content with a little crude humor. I want some exciting action and bold visuals. For all the praise the film got, i just felt it under delivered on the superhero action is all I am saying. Which is weird because at its core it was a super hero movie.

For something like you are talking about, I would probably hope for something like DUNE. I am less a fan of the sex in action movies though it usually feels cheap or forced. But take the terminator film, then it was central to the story line. I am totally glad there was not a sex seen in Stalker too. Like that hole bit where they take a nap in the flooded area it could have gone a completely different direction.
 

Jennywocky

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As far as representation goes, I have mixed feelings...or maybe not mixed, I'm just not that political but rationally I dont get why some folks are anti-diversity.
I think it depends what you mean by 'diversity'. Some people use language as a euphemism
What, showing a mix of different types of people in our collective stories, especially a mix that is representative of the world around us?

So sometimes people can't be honest about their real intentions so they have to pretend that they are doing something for a moral reason to justify what they are doing in order to conceal their real intentions
Sorry, I forgot there is a conspiracy afoot. See my first answer.

So for example the ex UN migration chief (he's passed away now) peter sutherland said publically that the EU should undermine 'national homogeneity' among its member states. You can find that statement in a BBC piece here:

So what he is talking about there is social engineering. He is working for the UN which is a world government and he wants the EU to become a single superstate so in order to do that he wants to see national identity destroyed in the member states of the EU

The way he wants this done is through mass migrations of people that are shipped over the meditterenean sea by NGO boats and then distributed around the EU into member states through migrant quotas

This process has completely rocked europe and has seen a populist party take power in italy, the french yellow vest movement has taken to the streets in france over the rising costs of paying for that process and the british have voted to leave the EU altogether

So 'diversity' is not so popular in europe and what we can see is that it is pushed as part of social engineering by people with a particular ideological outlook. The question can then be asked if we agree or not with that ideological outlook and on the impacts of it?

So for example in the Uk we have had a massive scandal where organised muslim rape gangs have raped thousands of white british children up and down the country. The british police were too afraid to do anything about that for decades because they did not want to be accused of being 'racist'. We also have a knife crime epidemic now in london and its spreading to other cities. That epidemic has arisen out of mass immigration. The country is becoming less safe and tensions are rising. is that enrichment?
I can't speak intelligently about Europe because I'm an American who doesn't read extensively in European news. Although I can't say based on your posting habits I look at you as someone with necessarily a balanced view of things. I am aware that racial issues are different overseas, but like I said, I know my country's issues better than Europe's. We don't have a fucking border invasion of migrant rapists, for example, regardless of what our president tries to state -- the crime rate among our border migrants is below that of our actual citizens.


I get why people don't want there to be representation just to have representation....but this isn't about employment or capability, it's about providing interesting diverse portrayals of heroes in stories, so then I also ask, why the hell not?

It's certainly not equal representation, because white male superheroes are typically overrepresented.
isn't that reflective of society in the sense that the comic books generally come out of countries that are demographically majority white? Also perhaps the people who produce the comic books are majority white and have been creating the comic books for a predominatly white, male audience. So when seen in that light it makes sense.
I am not exposed to Indian or Asian comics, as an example, because I don't have access to them directly like I have access to comic books originating in the United States ... and both DC and Marvel which are also at the top of producing superhero movies here originated here in the USA, right?

Since those companies originally created a lot of their properties, our national composition has changed a great deal... as well as our society. So it makes sense for the properties to change to reflect those changes. If not because of simply of being more reflective of our society (and those more interesting from having writers of various nationalities, both genders, and so forth) but even to simply market to their audience, if you're cynical enough to make it all about money.

if women want female comic book characters then they should start writing comics with female characters. The same is true for any demographic group. be the change you want to see in the world as ghandi would say
Lol, wtf do you think has been going on in our country and our comic book companies? It's exactly what's been happening, our writer based has been diversifying in the last 25 years and that's made some changes to the comics as well.

It's also important for people to see role models that they can identify with. Why shouldn't there be heroes of various nationalities, gender, identity, etc?
yes role models are important but the same people arguing for 'diversity' are the same people who would tell you its not important for families to have a male role model within them
Yeah. Um, I mean, no.

Maybe you're just confused that after all this time of men making themselves the most important people in society, that putting them back on the same level as everyone else in the culture is saying men shouldn't exist or something. Maybe you should just take a deep breath and make some space for other people? Men are people, and people are important.

so if they don't really believe in male role models we can ask what kind of role models are they creating for society and what do they hope to achieve through that?
This isn't complicated. People believe in role models. Since white men have been overrepresented in our stories for so long, my point obviously was that it's good to have some other role models as well, that reflect the audience. Can you actually imagine what it would be like to look around you at all the heroes of your culture and see NO ONE admirable who you can personally identify with, to feel inspired by? I'm guessing not.

I didnt think Captain Marvel was in the top tier of MCU films, but I did think it was great to see all the girls and young women there with their families to see a woman who might inspire them.... just like Wonder Woman a year or two again. It's not a bad thing, and there is no rule of who a superhero is supposed to be either.
do you think that there is a lot of violence on TV?

do you think that in recent years there has been a push to create female characters carrying out a lot of physical violence?

is there any room in society for a discussion on the effect of all the depicted violence?
You've lost me. Our entertainment has been inundated by male violence since its inception, so... what's your point? (I'm kinda hoping it's not that "women aren't allowed to use force because they have to be loving and kind and stabilize the culture while men pursue violence.")

Heaven forbid we have a movie with mainly black people (and not even African Americans , but non-American black people), considering how many non-white people are in the world and yet all of these films are typically about white Americans.
i don't think the issue with black panther is that the majority of its characters are black

I think the issue is that it is depicting a society that is not diverse when we are constantly being told that diversity is good. It seems like a double standard
Lol. Do you believe this stuff you're peddling? Seriously? After all your bitching about how shitty you think your world is by allowing migrants in? You can't argue both sides -- "Yeah, I want to keep everyone separate because they're ruining my part of the world... BUT WAKANDA....!"

Wakanda has really only been in one movie extensively (and part of a second). They're an African country. Let's see what their direction is, now that they decided to open their land to others. It's called a "story arc," not the static state of white male domination for the first 50+ years of comics history in the USA, at least, where there was no arc... just inundation. I'm interested in seeing how Wakanda continues to evolve.
 

JohnnyLawrence

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What, showing a mix of different types of people in our collective stories, especially a mix that is representative of the world around us?
If you have a society that is diverse then i don't see any problem with media representing that

But if you look at things in a wider context though you can ask whether or not some people want MASS immigration to be pushed in order to advance an ideological agenda through the deliberate shifting of demographics

Is that going on? well maybe that needs its own thread! But the point i was making about how the word 'diversity' is used is that it depends on the context of how it is used

Lets say that you jennywocky are pregnant and going to give birth. You are in the hospital and the team that enter the operation theatre are mostly male midwives. You enquire why there aren't any female midwives and you are told that the profession wasn't diverse enough and that they had to impose quotas to make sure that 50% of midwives are male

Lets say you go to get a cervical screening and the nurse assisting is male and you are told they are the only nurse on duty and that half of nurses now have to be straight males to ensure the profession is diverse

But going back to immigration if there are people pushing an agenda of dleiberately socially engineering societies through mass immigration then when they use the term 'diversity' what they are really meaning is how successful they are being in replacing the target population and the term 'replacement migration' has been used by the united nations in their own literature:

Replacement Migration:
Is It a Solution to Declining and Ageing Populations?


United Nations projections indicate that over the next 50 years, the populations of virtually all countries of Europe as well as Japan will face population decline and population ageing. The new challenges of declining and ageing populations will require comprehensive reassessments of many established policies and programmes, including those relating to international migration.

Focusing on these two striking and critical population trends, the report considers replacement migration for eight low-fertility countries (France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Republic of Korea, Russian Federation, United Kingdom and United States) and two regions (Europe and the European Union). Replacement migration refers to the international migration that a country would need to offset population decline and population ageing resulting from low fertility and mortality rates.
http://www.un.org/esa/population/publications/migration/migration.htm
 

JohnnyLawrence

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Sorry, I forgot there is a conspiracy afoot. See my first answer.
there are many conspiracies afoot!

In your reply below you answer to the point i made about organised muslim gangs raping thousands of british children up and down the country and the conspiracy there is that the police knew about it all the time as did social services but they took no action because they were ordered not to in the name of political correctness

I can't speak intelligently about Europe because I'm an American who doesn't read extensively in European news. Although I can't say based on your posting habits I look at you as someone with necessarily a balanced view of things. I am aware that racial issues are different overseas, but like I said, I know my country's issues better than Europe's. We don't have a fucking border invasion of migrant rapists, for example, regardless of what our president tries to state -- the crime rate among our border migrants is below that of our actual citizens.
My understanding is that they aren't properly recording the crime rates and therefore you can't assert that immigrants are responsible for less crime than citizens

I am not exposed to Indian or Asian comics, as an example, because I don't have access to them directly like I have access to comic books originating in the United States ... and both DC and Marvel which are also at the top of producing superhero movies here originated here in the USA, right?

Since those companies originally created a lot of their properties, our national composition has changed a great deal... as well as our society. So it makes sense for the properties to change to reflect those changes. If not because of simply of being more reflective of our society (and those more interesting from having writers of various nationalities, both genders, and so forth) but even to simply market to their audience, if you're cynical enough to make it all about money.
right so my argument is that if you want more female friendly comics then women need to start writing more comics but you should let the market decide. I don't think that there should be quotas imposed that half of comics sold must be authored by a woman. let change occur naturally and organically. If the hunger is there for more female authors then they will arise

Lol, wtf do you think has been going on in our country and our comic book companies? It's exactly what's been happening, our writer based has been diversifying in the last 25 years and that's made some changes to the comics as well.
right so its all good

Yeah. Um, I mean, no.

Maybe you're just confused that after all this time of men making themselves the most important people in society, that putting them back on the same level as everyone else in the culture is saying men shouldn't exist or something. Maybe you should just take a deep breath and make some space for other people? Men are people, and people are important.
I don't think men ever had enough power to 'make themselves the most important people in society'

For most of history they were peasants ruled over by elites. the men and women peasants worked together to grow enough food to feed themselves and their families and have enough left over to pay their tithes to the ruling class. The men worked the plough because they were physically strongest and the women suckled the young because they had the mammaries

Then there was the agricultural revolution and many men and women were driven off the land and into cities while the land was consolidated into large estates under the control of the ruling class. Then there was the industrial revolution where men and women were made to work in the factories and they were assigned their roles in society on the basis of their biology because men were physically stronger they were given certain roles. Women too were given particular roles for example ones requiring good dexterity and children were also assigned jobs suited to their builds for example they had to fetch the material that fell below the looms and they had to be quick about it or they lost their limbs. They were also sent up chimneys and died of terrible respiratory illnesses. 'they' were mostly boys who would be lucky to make it to manhood

They were then conscripted into armies and sent off to die in their millions in industrialised wars. I'm not sure when this golden age for men existed?
 
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