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Old 6th-April-2017, 03:18 AM   #1
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Default men violence against women

ok consider this a rant against the system
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Old 6th-April-2017, 08:31 AM   #2
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Default Re: men violence against women

@womyn
Let's just... live in a cave or sth and we'll use wabanaki bows to kill any mens who come close and we live on the pudding and gruel we make using their blood...we'll have to emerge every now and then 4 the calamine lotions so we don't turn into lepers tho also kill all men
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Old 6th-April-2017, 09:52 AM   #3
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"Well yessh... if she schteps out of line I'll give her a little schlap"

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Old 6th-April-2017, 10:25 AM   #4
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hashtag(not all men)
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Old 6th-April-2017, 10:35 AM   #5
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I have to endure quite a lot of physical violence from my wife, though I did have to teach her how to punch properly. Prior to doing so, she'd hit me and hurt herself. The pillock.
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Old 6th-April-2017, 01:30 PM   #6
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Default Re: men violence against women

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hashtag(not all men)
I think that goes without saying - last time I checked, around 14% of women experience violence. That is far too high and is clearly a problem, but the vast majority of us are clearly not like that.

But, that doesn't mean most people don't ignore it. I lived opposite a couple where this happened. Everyone in the street new because they could here them. Hell, you could see him hit her through the window. One day when I was about 17 I walked past after having some drinks with friends and saw it. Another neighbour my age also went past at the same time and we saw him hit her. So we decided to knock on the door. Neither of us could have done a thing - for this guy could have beaten the pair of us. All we could do was ask what the problem was and tell him the whole street could hear.

The next day she packed her stuff and left. Years later, she would stop me in the street to tell me how she was getting along since moving out, going back to college, retraining and starting a career for herself. And I didn't actually do anything - just made it clear someone had noticed.

The moral of this story - don't just not do it (the vast majority of men don't), you also have to not ignore it.
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Old 6th-April-2017, 03:03 PM   #7
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Default Re: men violence against women

Context is everything, and the truth lies somewhere in-between.

For a long time, women took a lot of shit because that's what society told us to do. A lot of burdening of blaming ourselves, a lot of time of spending ourselves on everyone else in our lives. Meanwhile, often the people you are doing things for just take advantage of it because they think they deserve your efforts and devotion. you become used and spent, with no life of your own; and meanwhile are taken advantage of in many ways.

You're seeing a hard swing in the other direction, it's been ongoing for awhile. Yeah, too much, but you need an initial jerk to break free, and when you do break free, it's an eye opener and it emboldens some to speak more loudly.

Hopefully after all the heavy pendulum fluctuations finish up, things will steady and become more reasonable and we can find agreement somewhere in the middle.
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Old 6th-April-2017, 03:29 PM   #8
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You're seeing a hard swing in the other direction, it's been ongoing for awhile. Yeah, too much, but you need an initial jerk to break free, and when you do break free, it's an eye opener and it emboldens some to speak more loudly
Camille Paglia's 'Working class Feminism' is worth considering and her critique of modern academic feminism. That is, the campus 'safe zones' as being an enabler of female inequality, not liberator. Her point is that true feminism is being able to stick up for yourself (as a women), not demanding protection, like a child (which is where women came from societally).

Women have largely won the battle in the West, by and large in society generally*. My impression is that all those academics have little to do with themselves now except create witch hunts (and safe zones and other bullshit), which paradoxically is regressive.

People are tiresome, basically.

* You have to separate societal equality and practical equality. Domestic violence data show women statistically are still suffering - this is practical equality. Without neutering all the males, or Mind Melds, or some other technology that will likely remain an ongoing problem (it's similar to murder - you can't eliminate it, but you can control it judicially. Which winds back to Paglia in that you need to give women the tools to fight it).
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Old 6th-April-2017, 03:29 PM   #9
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I have to endure quite a lot of physical violence from my wife, though I did have to teach her how to punch properly. Prior to doing so, she'd hit me and hurt herself. The pillock.
Me too, i had a gf who used to ask me everything about other friends girls, another who stole my password on facebook and spied me for 3 months without me nothing until she made a mistake, the same one used to call me at 3 - 4 am to ask if i was with another girl, another one who beat me because of her getting pissed off in our debates which i used to win.
In none of these cases i thought of denouncing.
Here everyone is like, denounce, denounce, denounce, wtf. It's awful.
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Old 6th-April-2017, 04:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: men violence against women

See, this is why I married an ENTJ woman - very little drama and you always know where you stand.

What you describe (TMB) makes my head hurt. I shan't ever understand how some people can be so painfully inane.
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Old 6th-April-2017, 05:00 PM   #11
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Default Re: men violence against women

Time for a derail...

Speaking of domestic violence, I've always wondered: what does domestic violence look like in a homosexual relationship?

Like, when we talk about domestic violence, it's almost always a case of a male abusing a female, but when it's same sex, then what happens? Do people still fall into a dominant/submissive dichotomy?

I've had many homosexual friends over the years, but this has never come up in conversation.

Anyone able to shed any light? (Friends beyond the binary, or tales thereof, also encouraged to comment... obviously)
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Old 6th-April-2017, 05:08 PM   #12
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Default Re: men violence against women

I was speaking of actual physical violence. Something no one should tolerate. Regarding Feminism, I totally agree with both Jenny and Architect. It'll balance out soon enough. Laws are as equal as they can realistically be - any problems remaining cannot be solved with legislation or laws but by education and letting society grow up.

My ex-wife was similar. (Bare in mind most of my friends are female, and none of which I have ever been with in a romantic or sexual sense) When she saw me laughing with a female friend, I was informed that if I spoke to her again then ex-wife would sleep with another man and ensure I caught her doing it. When she found out I'd been talking to another friend, she attempted to take an overdose of prescription medication and made out it was my fault - she liked using suicide threats as a control method. She also logged into my messenger account on her phone while I was talking this friend and said, "go on then - talk to her. Let's see what you have to say." She never missed an opportunity to remind me I was a weak individual who wouldn't stand up for myself (against other people - saying no to her was apparently abusive). She also for the last few years I was there didn't lift a finger to do anything. So I had to go to work, come home and do dinner, clean, walk the dog and put the baby to sleep each night, while she was either lounging around stoned or out with her friends/boyfriends (which was apparently innocent despite walking in one day to catch her and one of them masturbating over Skype together).

Was this behaviour acceptable? No. And I won't put up with it off anyone again. I'd rather be celebrate for the remainder of my years. Why the hell did I put up with it then? Variety of reasons including poor self esteem and image plus a fear that she would keep the kids who she was incapable of looking after anyway.

But this cannot be termed violence, because it's not. It's unacceptable behaviour, yes. But I'm not going to make out that women are abusive because she behaved like that.
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Old 6th-April-2017, 05:16 PM   #13
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Default Re: men violence against women

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Time for a derail...

Speaking of domestic violence, I've always wondered: what does domestic violence look like in a homosexual relationship?

Like, when we talk about domestic violence, it's almost always a case of a male abusing a female, but when it's same sex, then what happens? Do people still fall into a dominant/submissive dichotomy?

I've had many homosexual friends over the years, but this has never come up in conversation.

Anyone able to shed any light? (Friends beyond the binary, or tales thereof, also encouraged to comment... obviously)
Actually, yes. I've known at least one example. One was a gay relationship - the dominant one was poser looking sort of person and a bit of an arse, really. The only gay person I've ever met who actually showed me a picture of his manhood and asked what I thought of it to find out if I was gay or not. The submissive one, on the other hand, was this sweet little guy who was basically as close to the image of a woman in a man's body as you can get. Poor guy - he basically treated him exactly as you'd expect if it were a male>female violence.

I've also seen it in Lesbian relationships. Seems to be the one that's T-dom can get violent with the attention seeking f-dom there - I think that's a case of one lacking the patience to deal with the attention seeking behaviour and losing their temper.
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Old 6th-April-2017, 06:33 PM   #14
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Women have largely won the battle in the West, by and large in society generally*. My impression is that all those academics have little to do with themselves now except create witch hunts (and safe zones and other bullshit), which paradoxically is regressive.

People are tiresome, basically.

* You have to separate societal equality and practical equality. Domestic violence data show women statistically are still suffering - this is practical equality. Without neutering all the males, or Mind Melds, or some other technology that will likely remain an ongoing problem (it's similar to murder - you can't eliminate it, but you can control it judicially. Which winds back to Paglia in that you need to give women the tools to fight it).
How can you say women have "largely" won the battle and then tack on that addendum?
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Old 6th-April-2017, 06:36 PM   #15
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Default Re: men violence against women

i just think there are many good ways of stimulating the curiosity and the need for discussion besides the hardcore brainwashing shown in campaings and media.
because a lot of people are just too stupid to handle these problems. specially when they are young.
LOOK AT ALL THE "INTPs" coming here just to ask about how to fix a certain relationship -.-
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Old 6th-April-2017, 10:46 PM   #16
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How can you say women have "largely" won the battle and then tack on that addendum?
That was spelled out in the post addendum, but you obviously are demanding I restate it. Judicially women are equal and that's how it largely plays out societally. It's not an active topic of mine but according to Paglia and another prominent feminist I forget the name of ATM, on the job/pay front it's equal (and they cast doubt on studies that purport to say otherwise). Regardless assume it for the moment - this is judicial equality - under the law they are equal and it's mostly true in real life - continue reading to understand that caveat.

Repeating myself here, just because you have laws doesn't mean everybody follows them everywhere. So yes, there is still violence against women by individuals (and vice versa as noted above, but clearly women get it worse). My contention (and Paglia's) is that it won't go away by wishing it will, in fact it may never go away (e.g. we still have murder despite having social services, laws, etc). The best we have for this is giving women the tools to prevent and defend themselves.

Clear now? I think the mistake people make is being apparently unable to separate the difference between judicial equality, and the fact that people are pissers and will still break the law. But that's what the courts are for, and I see plenty of women are bringing up discrimination suites. Many of them failing too.

Anecdotally at my company there's not even a hint of sexual discrimination, which wasn't the case 30 years ago with the 'jock engineer' culture they had back then. Managers can't even ask you when you're planning on retiring for fear of age discrimination. And if you tell them voluntarily they can't even pretend to act on it (like, make a replacement plan).
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Old 7th-April-2017, 02:46 AM   #17
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Default Re: men violence against women

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My contention (and Paglia's) is that it won't go away by wishing it will, in fact it may never go away (e.g. we still have murder despite having social services, laws, etc). The best we have for this is giving women the tools to prevent and defend themselves.
It's this clever tidbit disguised among all the rest of the dry stuff.

There is a perspective superior to yours. It is that cultural values don't lose track of the end goal in these tumultuous times and people remain steadfast in the mission for educating the young about respect and consciously defending the new standards that have been laid out over the last seventy years.
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Old 7th-April-2017, 03:12 AM   #18
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Time for a derail...

Speaking of domestic violence, I've always wondered: what does domestic violence look like in a homosexual relationship?

Like, when we talk about domestic violence, it's almost always a case of a male abusing a female, but when it's same sex, then what happens? Do people still fall into a dominant/submissive dichotomy?

I've had many homosexual friends over the years, but this has never come up in conversation.

Anyone able to shed any light? (Friends beyond the binary, or tales thereof, also encouraged to comment... obviously)
MIT has a factsheet that says that domestic violence is actually worse in homosexual relationships. The sad thing is that the whole issue is neglected.
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Old 7th-April-2017, 04:32 AM   #19
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I've seen a woman physically abusing another woman in a Walmart parking lot, in their car, late at night. I don't think they were lesbians. I think they were sisters, living homeless together. I could be mistaken about that, I didn't have "great" sources of info on them. I did not intervene. It was hair pulling and clear physical intimidation, along with the victim saying things like "you'll go back to jail!"

Yes she screamed for help, some, as they were driving off. But I had a few calculations to perform. If I intervened, would they turn on me? If I summoned the police, and it made a big stink at Walmart, would all the rest of us homeless living out of our cars get the boot from the parking lot? Since we all eventually did get the boot for a different reason, the answer to that was very probably "yes". Finally, if I bring in the authorities, does it make it worse for the victim?

Saw them together subsequently. The victim didn't flee.

Knew a guy whose wife beat him. It is a reversal of the usual script, but yes it does happen. He eventually did leave her and got custody of the kids.

Trailed a guy who was screaming bloody rage at a woman he was with, in a Walmart parking lot this winter. 2 Walmart employees trailing as well. We were all thinking, it sounded bad enough that he might be thinking of beating or killing her. But she did not attempt to escape, or to cry out. Found them behind some trees; he was still chewing her out. She was stock still, saying nothing. I faded away; don't want a gun pulled on me, suddenly appearing. Walmart employees chose not to report, because it wasn't on their property anymore. I chose not to report, because it could make things worse, and he wasn't actually beating her. Sure seemed like he could have though.

I am a firm believer in knife combat training for girls. More cut throats would mean less domestic violence overall. Unfortunately, I recognize the cultural reality that girls in the USA, mostly aren't going to be cultured and trained that way. They will, by and large, continue to be a big pool of victims. But if I have daughters someday, they won't be my daughters.
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Old 7th-April-2017, 04:39 AM   #20
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Women violate men. Just as much if not more rather, just because one is woman doesn't guarantee and moral superiority or anything. But now it must seem like the man is the bad guy. It's not a race issue. So what is it to teach women that they have nails and can scratch you if a conflict came up? There are a lot of radical ideas out there concerning that like correlating to a shift in consciousness but that's just something that's happening then you describe it. Men are propositioned to act a certain way but it's taking all the fun of it out.

Honestly, it doesn't mean women taking over the world. Most of them are still emotionally run and people in general are liable to be bird brains but to rule it takes certain characteristic anyway. It's a basic means for survival. I don't like talking about it because inevitably there will be negative stuff to say.

It's not what people want. Perhaps the world is going more towards that way now. You'll see the real difference in two hundred years or so. We're switching to the age of Aquarius. I do not personally believe it is the cause of things but time goes on.
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Old 7th-April-2017, 05:20 AM   #21
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To be simple. People beat up people emotionally and physically. It's bad, lets try and help people not be beaten up by people if they don't want to be. Regardless of height, size, age, gender, race or any other characteristic. This includes 6 foot tall body builders getting beat up by 5 foot tall guys /girls and vice versa.

I tend to argue for what would appear to be "the male side" more often. This is because that's the side I understand better and it needs more support in various niche areas. However that doesn't mean I disagree or am supposed to the female side. In fact, in arguing for what some misinformed people would call the male side I directly supports the inverse problems of "the female side". For example arguing for males to be accepted into less traditional roles opens up more traditional "male" roles for females. The end goal being people allowed to do what they want based purely on ability/desire and not on any random characteristics.

All following stats are made up to illustrate a point.

Now the disclaimer is out of the way I don't think sex should come into an abuse campaign unless it's specific on abuse that targets only one sex for a particular social reason. What could be done is looking at the particular statistics, say 55% of females are abused to 45% of males. Then look at the type of abuse. Then run 55% of ads targeting woman at maybe a 35% - 20% split on physical to emotional abuse ratio then run 45% of ads targeting men at maybe a 30% emotional to 15% physical ratio.

Maybe I'm wrong however if we look at society with a more scientific/statistical basis we can then deal with the issues in a logical way instead of relying of anecdotes or seeing a 90% stat and putting 100% of the funding there.
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Old 7th-April-2017, 06:31 AM   #22
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I don't agree with considering these things violence... but...

It feels like this discussion takes place almost entirely at the polars with substantially less interaction with the core issues. Take this thread for example. Gender politics has been represented by:
- men hitting women
- equating phonechecking with violence
- equating asking about friends with violence
- equating being angry about slow response times with violence
- 'not all men'
- 'safe zones'
- anecdotes of an ex-wife that blackmailed her husband

These things are all fairly extreme points, that are either being expressed or being addressed. But where's the statistics about how much the different sexes suffer? I saw one statistic with no comparison point. See how we can have this whole conversation without even talking about something crucial like... How much more women suffer violence at the hands of men than vice versa?

Why are we even addressing the notion that "all men hit women" when it's not something that anyone believes?

Sorry guys, I'm not trying to shame you or anything. I'm not bringing any stats to the argument either. I'm more trying to make an observation about the state of how this issue is discussed, in relation to the OP. TheManBeyond says he's frustrated at the way these gender politics have been depicted, and even in our INTPvory tower we're still talking about global phenomenon in terms of anecdotes and strawmen. The reason it can and will continue to be represented in the media this way is because people react more to extremes. It's cyclical polarisation that stops the discussion being had by anyone not heavily invested and intellectually rigorous. Everyone thinks they have a valid opinion because gender politics takes place in a universal arena with which everyone is familiar, but it takes stern discipline to peel back even the first layer of this discussion without falling reactionary victim to some extremist position or event.
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Old 7th-April-2017, 07:08 AM   #23
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Default Re: men violence against women

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That was spelled out in the post addendum, but you obviously are demanding I restate it. Judicially women are equal and that's how it largely plays out societally. It's not an active topic of mine but according to Paglia and another prominent feminist I forget the name of ATM, on the job/pay front it's equal (and they cast doubt on studies that purport to say otherwise). Regardless assume it for the moment - this is judicial equality - under the law they are equal and it's mostly true in real life - continue reading to understand that caveat.

Repeating myself here, just because you have laws doesn't mean everybody follows them everywhere. So yes, there is still violence against women by individuals (and vice versa as noted above, but clearly women get it worse). My contention (and Paglia's) is that it won't go away by wishing it will, in fact it may never go away (e.g. we still have murder despite having social services, laws, etc). The best we have for this is giving women the tools to prevent and defend themselves.

Clear now? I think the mistake people make is being apparently unable to separate the difference between judicial equality, and the fact that people are pissers and will still break the law. But that's what the courts are for, and I see plenty of women are bringing up discrimination suites. Many of them failing too.

Anecdotally at my company there's not even a hint of sexual discrimination, which wasn't the case 30 years ago with the 'jock engineer' culture they had back then. Managers can't even ask you when you're planning on retiring for fear of age discrimination. And if you tell them voluntarily they can't even pretend to act on it (like, make a replacement plan).
Well I've read that the judicial system can contribute to unfair societal prejudices against women (including victims of rape and DV); that the pay gap is real; and have anecdotes of workplaces being difficult for women. I can't say I much care for Paglia's opinions on the subject.

I did want to know how you were thinking when you wrote that, and you answered as much, so thanks for that.
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Old 7th-April-2017, 07:54 AM   #24
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Default Re: men violence against women

This is a pretty serious topic for me. My mom was heavily abused by her first husband. She was knocked up at seventeen and socially pressured into marrying him. He'd steal from her for drug money to the point where she couldn't afford food, cheat on her, beat and leave her unconscious and bloody. The police never took him away for more than a day or two at the time. He did this with two subsequent women after my mom successfully left him for targeting my older brother. They were lucky to make it out alive.

I've never been in a physically abusive relationship or been intentionally struck by a man, but I have been threatened with the potential for physical or sexual violence by men on quite a few occasions. Guys on the street will often will bluster and threaten when you don't acknowledge catcalling for a super common example. In a particularly heated argument with my parents where I officially renounced my Christian faith, my father went as if he was going to strike me before my Mom got between us to stop it. My father is not abusive; although I still don't know how I feel about that moment ten years hence. I don't have the good sense to be afraid of people twice my size so I've ended up in more than one confrontation (or interceded on another confrontation) with drunken, volatile arseholes that could've gone badly, but luckily didn't. I've never been similarly threatened by a woman.

Since we're discussing female on male violence as well, I feel the need to specify that I'm almost wholly non-violent. I can be hot tempered and inordinately stubborn, but I've never had impulses to physically harm people, even in confrontation. The worst I've ever done was punch a female friend of mine who snuck up on me for fun when I thought I was alone, but that was a reflex and I felt really bad about it afterward. /disclaimer
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Old 7th-April-2017, 11:02 AM   #25
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Default Re: men violence against women

Men are more likely to be convicted of violent crimes generally. So I wonder if this is less to do with how society teaches men to be violent against women and more to do with men being more volatile overall.

I think a lot of cultures do encourage specialness of superiority of males unfortunately, but the counter to that isn't to start saying that women are special and superior. It just creates a new problem.
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Old 7th-April-2017, 12:51 PM   #26
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Default Re: men violence against women

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Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
Men are more likely to be convicted of violent crimes generally. So I wonder if this is less to do with how society teaches men to be violent against women and more to do with men being more volatile overall.
I wonder this as well but I think there are a few different approaches.

Men are more likely to be convicted of violent crimes,

a. Are we able to conclude men are more violent?
b. Is the definition of violent crime established in common law based on a long history of these types of crimes?
c. Is aggression categorically different from violence?
d. Is it fair to simply state that violence is known a priori and not to get hung up on semantics?
e. If d is indeed the case then can we observe violence and aggression from women that does not meet strict definitions of violent crime?

"Teaching men to be violent" vs. "Teaching men not to be violent"

is there a qualitative difference in these mindsets?
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Old 7th-April-2017, 01:09 PM   #27
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Default Re: men violence against women

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Originally Posted by seabass View Post
I wonder this as well but I think there are a few different approaches.

Men are more likely to be convicted of violent crimes,

a. Are we able to conclude men are more violent?
b. Is the definition of violent crime established in common law based on a long history of these types of crimes?
c. Is aggression categorically different from violence?
d. Is it fair to simply state that violence is known a priori and not to get hung up on semantics?
e. If d is indeed the case then can we observe violence and aggression from women that does not meet strict definitions of violent crime?

"Teaching men to be violent" vs. "Teaching men not to be violent"

is there a qualitative difference in these mindsets?
Somewhat related rant that indirectly relates in relatable ways to the information you related:

I think that men and boys are brought up essentially deprived of the physical and mental challenges that they traditionally evolved to deal/cope with, to the point that they basically don't develop 'correctly' in particular ways and/or they're brought up with an over-emphasis on these physical/mental challenges to the point that they become incapable of effectively dealing with more nuanced things.

"Sport and fiting is lyf and boyz have 2 b gud at sport and fiting" is as beneficial as it is harmful. I think that every male should have to do something that's both physically challenging as well as requiring cooperation with other males. Be it sport or something else, I actually think it's really damaging to males that don't have this experience early in life.

It shouldn't become the arbiter of success or failure, and other talents and abilities should be praised, recognised and encouraged. That's about as much as I can be bothered writing about, but I have MUH THERIEZSS about the effect of a poor balance of "boys r tuff" and "boys can be nice too" makes for poorly-adapted men in the long run.

Oh and it also applies to girls who should be encouraged to "grills can be tuff 2" along with "grills are nise and pritty n stuff"

I leave you now with a story about a boy named Billy:

" title="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_3dUgLXesk" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_3dUgLXesk
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Old 7th-April-2017, 01:24 PM   #28
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Default Re: men violence against women

personality disorder

or

developmental deprivation

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Old 7th-April-2017, 01:30 PM   #29
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developmental personality deprivation disorder
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Old 7th-April-2017, 05:31 PM   #30
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Default Re: men violence against women

Regarding why more men are convicted of violent crime than women. One this you have to remember is that the conviction is based mostly on damage done in the attack. Bare in mind, I'm 6'1 and just shy of 200lbs - compare that to my ex-wife who was 5'2 and 140lbs. On the occasions when she tried to hit me - she hurt her hand more than me. On the other hand, if I'd have hit her with same intentional proportional power, it would have caused serious harm. Although women can be trained to fight and gain strength - most don't. So the majority are simply not capable of suddenly hospitalising someone in a crime of passion, which most violent outbursts are.

I'm not completely defending my species - a lot of men are pigs. Let's face it, some display some terrible behaviour. I don't believe this is simply evolutionary. I'm quite happy to go without attacking people and don't see why other people can't be. It's because they arses and the rest of us didn't tolerate it, they wouldn't do it. They would change. They would control themselves. Likewise, can men really not control their dicks and prevent themselves from cheating/groping/wolf whistling/whatever? Absolute codswallop - I may think that lady in the office next door has an amazing butt (really, it's absolutely godlike), but I am not going to either grab it, slap it, make lewd comments or noises, and would not touch were I not single if she desired it. Why do people? Because they think it makes them look more "manly" to act as though their sex drive is so strong that they cannot control it.
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Old 7th-April-2017, 05:37 PM   #31
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Default Re: men violence against women

i think as a general rule we can say women are more in danger than men, that's something obvious
men have a more possesive instinct of abandon and react to it according to their physical training
i also think penalities for agression and assesination should be harder, when there's proof
sometimes proof doesn't come in the physical form, let's say videos, purple stains and such but in the speech of a women, so i think they need much more credibility
stalking or jelousy are not enough proof
i also think social justice warriors shouldn't brainwash people
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Old 7th-April-2017, 06:19 PM   #32
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Default Re: men violence against women

What about emotional abuse? Seems to me like the restricting of the scope of the problem to just physical aggression will have men rise to the surface as the expected brutes.

Another issue is how people respond to sources of violence/abuse. Do they repeat/pass on the pattern? How do they cope? Are they dependent on the abuser?
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Old 7th-April-2017, 06:36 PM   #33
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Default Re: men violence against women

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Originally Posted by Blarraun View Post
What about emotional abuse? Seems to me like the restricting of the scope of the problem to just physical aggression will have men rise to the surface as the expected brutes.

Another issue is how people respond to sources of violence/abuse. Do they repeat/pass on the pattern? How do they cope? Are they dependent on the abuser?
How do you define emotional abuse ? (Lets see if I'm guilty of it)
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Old 7th-April-2017, 06:43 PM   #34
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How do you define emotional abuse ? (Lets see if I'm guilty of it)
I don't think I can define it in a useful or short way, instead I expect it's something everyone understands via experience and common sense.

For example: a wife making derisive comments about husband's low status/low income which leads to tension/stress.
One partner exploiting the other's financial support forcing the caregiver to provide more than necessary by spending irresponsibly.
One partner provoking the other to actual violence with words / emotive influence (and later using it during arguments and painting themselves as the victim to enforce a degree of control).
Creating unreasonable expectations for the other partner, creating a stressful environment in general. Dishonesty, manipulation, shaming, guilt-tripping, social pressure susceptibility, etc.

In my parents' home it was actually my mother who was physically abusive, psychological abuse was about equal I'd say, both parents were financially independent and she could've stopped the personal hell they were getting into at any point, but instead chose to stick with my father out of love and self-sacrifice as she calls it. Having 3 kids didn't help the situation either, though this 'happy accident' I'd blame on poor contraception awareness of the post-communist era and external pressure.
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Old 8th-April-2017, 01:43 AM   #35
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Default Re: men violence against women

That's just what I'm saying.
Learning to 'defend yourself' is quiet submission to a bigger issue that can't be ignored.

For one thing, it emphasizes the violence aspect in the broader category of aggression and abuse. The over emphasis on overt violence diminishes and downplays the affective response to the effects of the non-violent forms of abuse.

Emotional abuse is intangible but essentially involves inconsistencies in affection, trustworthiness, apparent amiability .. making emotional content contingent on target behavior, essentially putting people into dominant and submissive roles.

Herein lies the danger of learning to "defend" yourself. An ineffective self-defense will just escalate into "switch" behavior where each participant takes turns perpetrating and falling victim. An effective self defense stymies any kind of rebuilding efforts thereby perpetuating the cycle of abandonment. Therefore defense is not the objective.

Education prevails.
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Old 8th-April-2017, 04:50 PM   #36
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Herein lies the danger of learning to "defend" yourself. An ineffective self-defense will just escalate into "switch" behavior where each participant takes turns perpetrating and falling victim. An effective self defense stymies any kind of rebuilding efforts thereby perpetuating the cycle of abandonment. Therefore defense is not the objective.

Education prevails.
I think here you mean "defend yourself verbally / emotionally".

I definitely believe that everyone should defend themselves physically from actual threats to bodily harm. Unfortunately everyone won't put in the training time, that's just not realistic. Thus there will always be an available pool of victims who can be physically dominated.

Anyways returning to verbal / emotional abuse, I don't think you should "rebuild" with someone who does that. I think you should leave him / her. So although verbal / emotional intelligence is an important life skill to keep from getting in the same kind of situation again, someone suffering abuse needs to take action and get the hell out. I know it's easier said than done, but escaping perpetrators is important. As are societal mechanisms to facilitate that, i.e. battered women shelters.
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Old 8th-April-2017, 07:10 PM   #37
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Default Re: men violence against women

Men are potentially more often violent, 'physically' abusive, , and rapists due to their testosterone. Having male role models and a father helps transfer the knowlege and understanding of how 'male urges' and responses can be controlled and cultivated in a civilized society.

Men without a father role model are much more likely to end up in jail due to violent behaviors. Stats strongly show this.

Also, requiring men to take testosterone inhibitors would make the world a better place. We no longer need the cave man to protect us from a land of wild ferocious beasts.
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Old 8th-April-2017, 07:48 PM   #38
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Also, requiring men to take testosterone inhibitors would make the world a better place.
That's some serious snake oil you're peddling, given the number of men who seem to have medical problems arising from "low T".
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Old 19th-April-2017, 03:02 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Blarraun View Post
What about emotional abuse? Seems to me like the restricting of the scope of the problem to just physical aggression will have men rise to the surface as the expected brutes.

Another issue is how people respond to sources of violence/abuse. Do they repeat/pass on the pattern? How do they cope? Are they dependent on the abuser?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blarraun View Post
I don't think I can define it in a useful or short way, instead I expect it's something everyone understands via experience and common sense.

For example:
  1. a wife making derisive comments about husband's low status/low income which leads to tension/stress.
  2. One partner exploiting the other's financial support forcing the caregiver to provide more than necessary by spending irresponsibly.
  3. One partner provoking the other to actual violence with words / emotive influence (and later using it during arguments and painting themselves as the victim to enforce a degree of control).
  4. Creating unreasonable expectations for the other partner, creating a stressful environment in general. Dishonesty, manipulation, shaming, guilt-tripping, social pressure susceptibility, etc.

In my parents' home it was actually my mother who was physically abusive, psychological abuse was about equal I'd say, both parents were financially independent and she could've stopped the personal hell they were getting into at any point, but instead chose to stick with my father out of love and self-sacrifice as she calls it. Having 3 kids didn't help the situation either, though this 'happy accident' I'd blame on poor contraception awareness of the post-communist era and external pressure.
There is a pattern of dominant or emotionally unstable females and withdrawn males in my family and I've seen lots of 3 and 4. Just to mention a couple:

I don't know what my grandparents ever saw in each other but they haven't gotten along for all I remember. While my grandpa had a natural calm and focused demeanor, my grandma would just explode on him for the smallest things and he'd just take it because she couldn't be reasoned with. I still have a childhood memory of her stabbing him with a fork and one of her shooting off her pistol. Eventually he said fuck it, and just moved into the garage instead of getting a divorce and leaving. She calmed down noticeably after that but it didn't change the way she acted toward everyone else and 20 years later she's only gotten worse..

My 2nd oldest cousin has a kid with his ex-girlfriend, and she initiated a breakup to be with someone else after several years of my cousin being a loving father to both his own daughter and another man's. She makes it extremely hard for him to see his kid and he even went to her with a custody plan. When they were still together she'd always treat his (darker skinned) daughter worse like not buying her new clothes or not doing her hair. This same woman came into my house with some sales rep I've never met to try and sell my sister into a pyramid scheme which just shows how inane or shameless she is.

In my own words and from my personal experience, I'd say domestic gender violence against men is very different from the domestic violence against women and may go unnoticed if the guy is prone to retaliation because then you just ignore the cause and charge the male with battery after he flips and lashes out. It doesn't help that society prohibits males from expressing their emotions and being anything other than tough and successful.

I don't believe women are the enemy of men. I believe other men are the enemy of men, and that other women are the enemy of women. Other men are the most prominent source of gender discrimination and emasculation. It starts at home with the father being intolerant of his son's "deviance", and at school with a social hierarchy in the earliest grades, then as you get older the media and society conditions boys to believe a man must have the most attractive women(yes, plural), the highest paying job, a flawless chiseled body over 6' yet makeup is gay, callous enough to insult and take advantage of others to get ahead in every opportunity, unfeeling at all times, and no need for any kind of support.

The proof is when you see guys being dismissive of males who bring it up, and it makes no sense why they would be against feminism because all males benefit from it. Redpillers complain about men's position in society but choose to attack women instead of addressing that males perpetuate the hyper-masculinity that makes them have to compete so desperately.
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Old 19th-April-2017, 04:04 PM   #40
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Default Re: men violence against women

I just think for very masculine men/women, violence is a direct way of dealing with perceived emotional threats. They have shit EQ and men in particular are not encouraged to grow it.

I can't even remember how many times I've heard people in the military say that people should fight out their conflicts because it makes them friends afterwards. I mean I guess if the people hurting each other are just using violence as an emotional outlet, then yeah they might feel better after punching each other in the face, but for someone like me, I'll stop caring about that person (all trust gone) and might even do covert shit to make their life harder.
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Old 19th-April-2017, 04:18 PM   #41
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I just think for very masculine men/women, violence is a direct way of dealing with perceived emotional threats. They have shit EQ and men in particular are not encouraged to grow it.

I can't even remember how many times I've heard people in the military say that people should fight out their conflicts because it makes them friends afterwards. I mean I guess if the people hurting each other are just using violence as an emotional outlet, then yeah they might feel better after punching each other in the face, but for someone like me, I'll stop caring about that person (all trust gone) and might even do covert shit to make their life harder.
Yeah, I understand that certain types of people (and you see it with guys sparring mostly) see it as a way to express feelings and get out frustrations and afterwards they might have a better sense of each other's competence in fighting plus feel like they have been through something together. I didn't have brothers, so I don't have that experience either of watching brothers fight.

But me personally, I'm not big on the "personal violence builds trust." It just tells me that if I piss someone off enough, they will resort to physical strength to overpower me while not addressing the issue. I don't feel safe around them.

I don't really have a lot of disagreement with the things being said. I do think men get the short end of the stick in terms of range of expression -- society shuts down a lot of aspects of a man's personhood in favor of a cliché of power, then wonders why men are unhappy and some abuse their power / have trouble not seeing the world that way. It's okay for a guy to show emotion other than anger, and it doesn't mean he isn't strong. Sometimes it seems like his only options are to be a total jerk or an emotional softie, but healthy people have all various facets to who they are and can show a range of emotion and response. The binary forced on folks whether by society, or religion (with its views of you are either GOOD or EVIL) , or whatever else is stultifying.
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Old 19th-April-2017, 06:53 PM   #42
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Default Re: men violence against women

I realize a real conflict would not be so simply resolved but there is something that can be said for physical activity as a stress regulator. It's known that exercise, sports and running releases endorphines so you could start to feel different, more positive after some time. I guess that's where the " just duke it out" mentality comes from.
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Old 21st-April-2017, 05:14 PM   #43
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Well as for this "society this that blah blah blah" I heartily encourage all of you to move to places in the USA or elsewhere, where models of male behavior are more enlightened. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and had no problem learning to express my feelings as I grew up. There's a lot of "I'm ok, you're ok" out there; problems too I'm sure, but that Hippie influence is strong enough to have moderated society and have made things basically more pleasant for people. There are other pockets in the country with similar attitudes, that's a major reason I live in Asheville NC for instance. Lived in Seattle for 11 years as well and don't recall it being a city of unthinking male brutes.

As a smart ectomorph, I got bullied a lot in 6th..8th grade when we moved to NC. It turned me into a martial artist, that was my response to the problem.
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Old 21st-April-2017, 07:10 PM   #44
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Well as for this "society this that blah blah blah" I heartily encourage all of you to move to places in the USA or elsewhere, where models of male behavior are more enlightened. I grew up in the San Francisco Bay Area and had no problem learning to express my feelings as I grew up. There's a lot of "I'm ok, you're ok" out there; problems too I'm sure, but that Hippie influence is strong enough to have moderated society and have made things basically more pleasant for people. There are other pockets in the country with similar attitudes, that's a major reason I live in Asheville NC for instance. Lived in Seattle for 11 years as well and don't recall it being a city of unthinking male brutes.
#NotAllMales?

Yeah, sure, there are certain pockets in American culture that do fine. Who said there weren't? I've been to Seattle. I've been to Portland. But are they the majority? Is it dominant enough to have eradicate the issue? Nope, it looks like many of us on the forum have unfortunately had to live in places or had roots in places where your fortunate existence was not ours. Most places I go and seemed to have lived aren't quite like those cities.

Quote:
As a smart ectomorph, I got bullied a lot in 6th..8th grade when we moved to NC. It turned me into a martial artist, that was my response to the problem.
Gratz.
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Old 21st-April-2017, 08:47 PM   #45
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Yeah, sure, there are certain pockets in American culture that do fine. Who said there weren't?
People who make sweeping generalizations without qualifying what they're saying. And actually, my observation of people in lower class strata and different ethnic backgrounds, is that plenty of people (men and women) have Emotional Intelligence just fine. I would even go so far as to say that "American men can't talk about their feelings" is a myth. I've seen way too many do it just fine, and I don't just mean in my peer groups. So I think this is one of those "environmental assumption" things, where someone shouldn't assume that just because they are surrounded by people who are having problems with it, that it's everybody or even a dominant tendency. And in the final analysis, people can pick up and move somewhere, where people are more like what they want out of people.
How many 'P' points did I just score for that?

Quote:
I've been to Seattle. I've been to Portland. But are they the majority?
Yep, they are. Don't know why you've experienced otherwise. Generally mashable under the title "West Coast culture".

Quote:
Is it dominant enough to have eradicate the issue?
Issues don't get eradicated. 99.99% of males may not beat up anybody, and still you will have issues of domestic violence. Most people don't murder, you'll still have it happen. So, calling for "eradication" is dialectically pointless.



I was 14 and had just started American Karate when this movie came out! Since I started to stop the bullying, the movie definitely meant something to me. Glad the people who were picking on me weren't as well trained as in the film. Most had no training and immediately evaporated when I started demonstrating front snap kicks in the schoolyard. Unfortunately in 9th grade I did get my ass kicked by a guy who grossly outweighed me, was a wrestler, and a rank higher in karate than me besides. Which over the long haul taught me some things about ego and thinking you're "all that". There's usually someone badder than you somewhere, and you never really know what the other guy's got.
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