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Old 28th-April-2017, 07:39 AM   #1
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Lightbulb Karma System

INTPf, y u no have karma/reputation system?

Old thread: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?...ght=reputation

New argument: I used to post on The Phora (http://www.thephora.net/), and the reputation system works really well there. The thing is: some people post really low-quality stuff, and too much of it. So maybe they deserve ban even though they're not actually breaking any rules. I know it certainly motivated me not to post crap on that forum. I remember I once posted a pic of some clothing brand I liked on some pic thread, and I got a bunch of bad rep telling me not to post such crap. And they were right.
I also got a bunch of good rep for being 14 and posting high quality stuff for my age, and that made me feel quite good.

Moreover: I think rep from higher profile members should weigh more. In fact: we could create a completely original, new reputation system. How hard can it be to figure it out? And this forum desperately needs sth new to be revitalized.

Thoughts?
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Old 28th-April-2017, 08:07 AM   #2
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Default Re: Karma System

ew

Let's not create an lazy way for people to express disagreement. Even if it's upvotes only, public rankings creates a meta game that I would think is contrary to the spirit of the forum.

There is a reason why so many non INTPs happen to stumble upon this place and stay a while.
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Old 28th-April-2017, 08:54 AM   #3
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Default Re: Karma System

I actually kinda like karma systems.

I've participated in a few fora, and those imaginary internet points really do drive up quality. It leads to some crappy/uncomfortable outcomes admittedly, but I think the benefits outweigh the negs.
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Old 28th-April-2017, 09:00 AM   #4
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Default Re: Karma System

LOL at any1 thinking Ragnar would implement this ever.
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Old 28th-April-2017, 09:50 AM   #5
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Default Re: Karma System

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
LOL at any1 thinking Ragnar would implement this ever.
Not so quick Mr. QuickTwist. How do you know what Ragnar might or might not implement?


Quote:
Originally Posted by EyeSeeCold View Post
Let's not create an lazy way for people to express disagreement. Even if it's upvotes only, public rankings creates a meta game that I would think is contrary to the spirit of the forum.

There is a reason why so many non INTPs happen to stumble upon this place and stay a while.
I can't link those two parts.
1- It's not about expressing disagreement, it's about ranking content. Good content is upvoted, bad content is downvoted. Why would that be contrary to the spirit of the forum?
2- What is that reason?
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Old 28th-April-2017, 10:33 AM   #6
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Default Re: Karma System

If I remember correctly, that type of ranking system was incompatible with this forum type.

I tend to dislike it. I'm thinking one might become more biased and it hinders independent thought of the individual user when evaluating new information. Likes become an authority figure.

I also don't care for high rep users being valued more, as that adds to the bias. High rep users also tend to be popular ones or those who many agrees with, which doesn't always correlate with actual insight and usefulness. You can say you'd only like "good content", but I think it's unavoidable to overall give more credit to people you like or agree with. It's an innate bias.

In the previous thread, Anthile said something about controversial posts being discouraged. I guess we haven't had many of those lately, but discouraging people who might have an unpopular or less valued opinion might lead to the forum being more sameness, which might lead to less development and exploration.
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Old 28th-April-2017, 10:51 AM   #7
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Default Re: Karma System

@Redfire,

Have you learned nothing? This site is not run by democracy. Ranking posts by the user base is pointless because that is what admins are for.

Cool music though.
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Old 28th-April-2017, 11:24 AM   #8
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Default Re: Karma System

PROS: it's the current meta of most forums

CONS: it's the current meta of most forums
- being higher profile doesn't mean you're right
- appeal to popularity
- potentially removes discussion because now you can have the instant gratification of +/-karma
- encourages the regurgitation of previously accepted ideation for karma
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Old 28th-April-2017, 11:30 AM   #9
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Default Re: Karma System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minuend View Post
In the previous thread, Anthile said something about controversial posts being discouraged. I guess we haven't had many of those lately, but discouraging people who might have an unpopular or less valued opinion might lead to the forum being more sameness, which might lead to less development and exploration.
Well, that's not what tends to happen imo. There's certainly no shortage of controversial posts in The Phora. It is in fact the most politically incorrect forum I've come cross; while still keeping up serious discussions and discouraging trolls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
@Redfire,

Have you learned nothing? This site is not run by democracy. Ranking posts by the user base is pointless because that is what admins are for.

Cool music though.
No forum is a democracy. That doesn't mean it's impossible for a suggestion to get through. It is in fact the whole purpose of this forum section.

Admins rank posts? How so? Deleting posts or banning people is not ranking; there's no post ranking in this forum

And yeah, Wardruna is cool. It has a genuine feel to it, it's not as LARPer as other neofolk bands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
PROS: it's the current meta of most forums
What do you mean? Most forums don't have a rep system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
CONS: it's the current meta of most forums
- being higher profile doesn't mean you're right
No; it's hard to know who's right. That is not the purpose of ranking systems though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
- appeal to popularity
Valid concern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
- potentially removes discussion because now you can have the instant gratification of +/-karma
This is a positive imo. You can weigh in without spamming a thread; I lurk the forum all the time and I don't always want to engage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
- encourages the regurgitation of previously accepted ideation for karma
What?
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Old 28th-April-2017, 03:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: Karma System

Flee, my friend, into your solitude! I see you deafened with the noise of the great men, and stung all over with the stings of the little ones.

Forest and rock know how to be silent with you. Be like the tree which you love, the broad-branched one -- silently and attentively it overhangs the sea.

Where solitude ends, there begins the market-place; and where the market-place begins, there begins also the noise of the great actors, and the buzzing of the poison-flies.

In the world even the best things are worthless without those who make a side-show of them: these showmen, the people call great men.

Little do the people understand what is great -- that is to say, the creator. But they have a taste for all showmen and actors of great things.

Around the creators of new values revolves the world: -- invisibly it revolves. But around the actors revolve the people and the glory: such is the course of things.

The actor has spirit, but little conscience of the spirit. He always believes in that with which he most strongly inspires belief -- in himself!

Tomorrow he has a new belief, and the day after, one still newer. Like the people, he has quick perceptions and fickle moods.

To defeat -- that means for him: to prove. To drive to frenzy -- that means for him: to convince. And blood is to him the best of all arguments.

A truth which glides only into refined ears, he calls falsehood and nothing. He believes only in gods that make a big noise in the world!

Full of clattering fools is the market-place, -- and the people glory in their great men! These are for them the masters of the hour.

But the hour presses them; so they press you. And also from you they want Yes or No. Alas! would you set your chair between Pro and Con?

Do not be jealous of those unyielding and impatient men, you lover of truth! Never yet did truth cling to the arm of the unyielding.

On account of those abrupt ones, return into your security: only in the market-place is one assailed by Yes? or No?

Slow is the experience of all deep fountains: long have they to wait until they know what has fallen into their depths.

Far away from the market-place and from fame happens all that is great: far away from the market-place and from fame have always dwelt the creators of new values.

Flee, my friend, into your solitude: I see you stung all over by the poisonous flies. Flee to where a rough, strong breeze blows!

Flee into your solitude! you have lived too closely to the small and the pitiful. Flee from their invisible vengeance! For you they have nothing but vengeance.

No longer raise your arm against them! They are innumerable, and it is not your job to be a flyswatter.

Innumerable are the small and pitiful ones; and rain-drops and weeds have been the ruin of many a proud structure.

You are not stone; but already have you become hollow from many drops. You will yet break and burst from the many drops.

I see you exhausted by poisonous flies; I see you bleeding and torn at a hundred spots; and your pride refuses even to be angry.

They would have blood from you in all innocence; blood is what bloodless souls crave -- and therefore they sting in all innocence.

But you, profound one, you suffer too profoundly even from small wounds; and before you have healed, the same poison-worm crawls over your hand.

You are too proud to kill these gluttons. But take care lest it be your fate to suffer all their poisonous injustice!

They buzz around you also with their praise: obtrusiveness is their praise. They want to be close to your skin and your blood.

They flatter you, as one flatters a God or devil; they whimper before you, as before a God or devil; What does it come to! They are flatterers and whimperers, and nothing more.

Often, also, do they show themselves to you as friendly ones. But that has always been the prudence of cowards. Yes! cowards are wise!

They think much about you with their petty souls -- you are always suspect to them! Whatever is much thought about is at last thought suspicious.

They punish you for all your virtues. They pardon you entirely -- for your errors.

Because you are gentle and of honest character, you say: "Guiltless are they for their small existence." But their petty souls think: "Guilty is every great existence."

Even when you are gentle towards them, they still feel themselves despised by you; and they repay your beneficence with secret maleficence.

Your silent pride is always counter to their taste; they rejoice if once you are humble enough to be vain.

What we recognize in a man, we also irritate in him. Therefore be on your guard against the small ones!

In your presence they feel themselves small, and their baseness gleams and glows against you in invisible vengeance.

You did not see how often they became silent when you approached them, and how their energy left them like the smoke of a waning fire?

Yes, my friend, you are the bad conscience of your neighbors, for they are unworthy of you. Therefore they hate you, and would rather suck your blood.

Your neighbors will always be poisonous flies; what is great in you -- that itself must make them more poisonous, and always more fly-like.

Flee, my friend, into your solitude -- and there, where a rough strong breeze blows. It is not your job to be a flyswatter.

Thus Spoke Zarathustra.

(From "The Flies of the Marketplace")
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Old 28th-April-2017, 04:04 PM   #11
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Default Re: Karma System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfire View Post
Admins rank posts? How so?
No one knows unless you're on the inside.

The counter argument to what I suggest is that the admins just do things on a whim without careful planning and astute observation. Do you think this is more likely?
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Old 28th-April-2017, 04:27 PM   #12
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Default Re: Karma System

There's no need to associate the perceived quality of a post with the poster.

Rating the quality of posts on it's own is not a bad idea though. Any kind of user feedback is good feedback, if you want to create quality content.
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Old 28th-April-2017, 06:06 PM   #13
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Default Re: Karma System

Since I have the most posts, does this mean I'd have ultimate rep power?

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Old 28th-April-2017, 06:18 PM   #14
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Default Re: Karma System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky View Post
Since I have the most posts, does this mean I'd have ultimate rep power?

I want you to be relying to me when you hit 10k (in 14 posts).
I'll give you an up vote for it.
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Old 28th-April-2017, 08:59 PM   #15
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Default Re: Karma System

Eh, I'd have to say I'm against it. I see little value in knowing the disagreement / agreement towards certain people in the form of a number. It would likely just be harmful towards discussion and just distract from whatever is being discussed.
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Old 2nd-May-2017, 03:10 PM   #16
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Default Re: Karma System

I kind of find it obnoxious. It ends up being a way for popular opinion to discourage dissenting arguments/opinions. But sometimes it's nice to shut people up that are simply bigoted. That's the only upside I guess.
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Old 2nd-May-2017, 03:16 PM   #17
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Default Re: Karma System

Quote:
Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
The counter argument to what I suggest is that the admins just do things on a whim without careful planning and astute observation. Do you think this is more likely?
yes
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Old 3rd-May-2017, 05:12 PM   #18
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Default Re: Karma System

Even I think this is a bad idea. Although it would be nice to get a visual indication of which jokes are hit or miss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfire View Post
Moreover: I think rep from higher profile members should weigh more. In fact: we could create a completely original, new reputation system. How hard can it be to figure it out? And this forum desperately needs sth new to be revitalized.

Thoughts?
The problem is I have a good idea of how to get the most rep and it doesn't involve quality posts with well thought out reasoned arguments and differing view points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hadoblado View Post
I actually kinda like karma systems.

I've participated in a few fora, and those imaginary internet points really do drive up quality. It leads to some crappy/uncomfortable outcomes admittedly, but I think the benefits outweigh the negs.
They bring quality to a medium level sure. Drive up the bottom and lower the ceiling. On a forum this size though it would be tragic.
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Old 3rd-May-2017, 07:59 PM   #19
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Default Re: Karma System

The problem many have with karma systems is the "obsession with upvotes" that tend to result. As I like the idea of being able to up/down vote a post, I'd say make that possible, but then hide the resulting user and post scores (ie, don't make them viewable by other forum members). Or maybe hide them until someone figures out how to avoid the down sides of a reputation system.

I didn't like vBulletin's original reputation system, but there's probably some reputation plugin with better algorithms. Or maybe like + dislike buttons would work.
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Old 3rd-May-2017, 08:45 PM   #20
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Default Re: Karma System

Mob Voting systems discourage quality discussion.
Small forum increase quality by good moderation.
In anarchistic voting systems the mob moderates.
Gopher is my president, I voted for him the last election.
I would not want the forum to descend into Reddit anarchy.
The majority are happy with the current quality of the forum.
Gopher is the vanguard of the Republic.
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Old 3rd-May-2017, 09:04 PM   #21
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Default Re: Karma System

Personally, I wouldn't like it. Anytime I've seen a voting system in place, it ends up discouraging good debate and discussion as popular opinion reigns - as AK put it, mob rules. And people start downvote hunting those they don't like.

On the other hand, though, INTP's typically don't like expressing negative views because we don't like upsetting harmony and starting an argument. Which usually means that that eventually, pent up opinions erupt like they over Christmas. But then, that's what we have modrators and Red Baron for (and in fairness - he was right last time).

We haven't had any arguments in a while and I don't really know that anyone is unhappy with the forum quality at present. I also don't like it, admittedly, because I'd be afraid I'd get enough downvotes to be gone pretty quickly.
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Old 4th-May-2017, 03:40 AM   #22
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Default Re: Karma System

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gopher View Post
Even I think this is a bad idea. Although it would be nice to get a visual indication of which jokes are hit or miss.
As a frequent shit-poster that tries to be funny - it's concerning that I can't tell if people enjoy it or not. This is a serious problem that needs to be addressed! RIGHT NOW!!

President Gopher, please lead the charge. Diagnose the bad shit-posters and drive them out of this great forum! Then build a wall to keep them out...damn it!!
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Old 4th-May-2017, 11:57 AM   #23
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Default Re: Karma System

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfire View Post
I can't link those two parts.
1- It's not about expressing disagreement, it's about ranking content. Good content is upvoted, bad content is downvoted. Why would that be contrary to the spirit of the forum?
2- What is that reason?
This place doesn't have a large userbase and neither does it have a high rate of turnover, so at any given time the active posters are fairly familiar with one another. Asking them to rank each other's posts then is hardly being separated from ranking the people themselves, the points would just tell more about the relationships than the worth of an idea. In a small community like this it's likely you'll get camps and celibritocracy, that is if you don't discourage the userbase from posting altogether.

The type that tends to pass through here and stay awhile are those either rejected by other more hectic forums or those who have been outcast by society. With a history of lenient moderatorship and a preference for genuinely eccentric personalities the spirit of this place has come to be a sanctuary. Creating another social game would be adverse to that.

I don't think the idea is entirely without merit, maybe if voting could be restricted to specific "legitimate" subforums, only visible to the recipient, completely anonymous, or if the userbase was just plain larger with more active discussions. Right now I think there is more value to be extracted from direct responses.

Quote:
LOL at any1 thinking Ragnar would implement this ever.
Didn't Ragnar once ask intpforum if we wanted to switch to modern vBull to get better support (and lose the unique features in the process)?

I believe the collective answer was why would we want intpforum to be like every other forum out there, i.e. if you want modern you have thousands of boards to choose from.
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Old 4th-May-2017, 12:58 PM   #24
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Default Re: Karma System

Give certain connotations to something and it will simply become less appealing. INTP forum mixes apathy with intellect, and that's what I like, that's what will be changed as a result of a voting system.
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Old 4th-May-2017, 01:03 PM   #25
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Default Re: Karma System

We're the one punch men of philosophy and the sciences.
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Old 8th-May-2017, 08:36 AM   #26
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Default Re: Karma System

The voting system will result in instant gratification through the confirmation of identity in respect to the community of the forum. Where instant gratification leads to is just a no-go, and I will not come to the forum again.
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