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Old 7th-January-2017, 10:05 PM   #1
Auburn
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Default Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

This thread is about demotivation, mental paralysis and stagnation... whether in one's personal growth or outer dreams.


I wonder how many forumers here feel like they've gotten stuck in a mental swamp? an emotional quicksand from which there seems to be no escape?

Often, the ironic thing is that stuck-people are overthinkers. So they know a lot more than people may believe about what they maybe 'should do' to get out of it, in principle. But what seems simple and straightforward to others can feel like an utterly impossible energy expenditure.

I think it can be a bit cruel (though understandably so) to view people who are stuck in stagnation and say to them things like "you just stop thinking and start doing" or "you just have to make a decision". If it was that easy, I suspect it wouldn't be such a conundrum. Something (feelings/ideas) disallows it, mayhaps...

(It doesn't help that overthinking leads to metaphysical questions, and a visit with the ultimate demotivator, a la entropy; from whose lens all paths seem equally vain.)

I wonder if any of you would like to share your experiences with being stuck, and maybe what sort of things help you out? ...where are you now, and where would you like to go?
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Old 7th-January-2017, 10:19 PM   #2
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

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Originally Posted by Auburn View Post
This thread is about demotivation, mental paralysis and stagnation... whether in one's personal growth or outer dreams.

I wonder how many forumers here feel like they've gotten stuck in a mental swamp? an emotional quicksand from which there seems to be no escape?


I think it can be a bit cruel (though understandably so) to view people who are stuck in stagnation and say to them things like "you just stop thinking and start doing" or "you just have to make a decision".

Often, the ironic thing is that stuck-people are overthinkers. So they know a lot more than people may believe about what they 'should do' to get out of it, in principle. But what seems simple and straightforward to others can be an impossible energy expenditure.

It doesn't help that overthinking leads to metaphysical questions, and a visit with the ultimate demotivator, a la entropy; from whose lens all paths seem equally vain.

I wonder if any of you would like to share your experiences with being stuck, and maybe what sort of things help you out? ...where are you now, and where would you like to go?
I'm not sure I can articulate the experience, but the overall gist is that I became so miserable in indecision and my own lack of efficacy that I finally got off the fence and made a decision about one thing I had been stuck on for a long time. It definitely unsettled my life (and I ended up being separated and eventually divorced later); but remarkably since it improved my quality of life, it made it far easier to make more decisions in the future... in part because I realized I could deal with any problems involved with the choices I made, and that it would improve my life overall... and if it didn't, I'd just make more decisions and change my life again. It was very empowering, gave me better skills to carry out decisions, etc.

So I ended up changing employers, and moving to a new city, and making many more decisions on much smaller scales. I realized how much time and energy I had squandered in indecision over the years. You only live once. If you make no decisions, you don't accomplish anything.

Needless to say, yes, I was getting older and my mortality was also sitting on me more heavily, slowly suffocating me. I didn't feel like I had the luxury of indecision as much either. When you are younger, it's easier just to wait and see. When you're older, it's more "now or never."

I also seem to care less about having the perfect answer before I choose something. I'm more liable to just jump in, then deal with the fallout, versus sitting in the middle. Again, more pragmatism, more realism, less fear of mistakes (because you can recover/adjust from most), and more confidence in my coping abilities.

EDIT: For background about my legendary indecision, my supervisor once at my last job actually called me the "Poster Child for Ambivalence" at one of our project meetings. He meant it as a joke but later felt bad; I thought it was actually funny and insightful, he was completely right about me back then.
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Old 8th-January-2017, 12:14 AM   #3
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

i can feel myself degenerate with every passing year because of my lethargy
i do get some bouts of motivation every now and then but they always seem to dematerialize too soon. i know i am mostly worthless, but its so hard to accept it. to accept my mediocrity.
this may be grim, but i think some people are born with self discipline, and some simply arent. and theres nothing i can do about this. i have tried countless times since childhood to combat the lethargy, tried to talk myself into believing my efforts are fruitful and meaningful but its no use, all the while i could see almost everyone else breeze through what i struggle to finish or start. this has always been the case for me, for as long as i can remember. i dont really know what my problem is...i just know that ive been fighting apathy since forever, that im only alive through the effort of others, and that im waiting for my life to wrap up in some kind of meaningful resolve *shrugs*
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Old 8th-January-2017, 12:25 AM   #4
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

Nothing I say will help you, the process of overcoming stagnation is entirely personal, so my story isn't instrumental here. I've spent many years trying to support my best friend who was facing a similar existential crisis as I had, except he's still there and nothing I do or explain seems to be helping them.

I think there are two essential elements to it. First I had to believe in my potential and second I had to put myself in an empowering frame of mind and create a healthy lifestyle that fuels my growth.

I knew I had the potential, I did some amazing things even after I put only a small % of the required effort.

What allowed me to get past that was my depression and imagination. I stopped being afraid and ashamed. I had some 50 odd years of life left, time is running out and if I don't follow the beautiful kinds of dreams I see in my mind, nobody will. I don't care about risks or consequences, I know I can deal with issues as they come, world belongs to the people willing to fight for it and I want my share of the cake. I want to be strong enough to surround myself with the kind of reality I wish to see.

Depression is very soothing and peaceful and since I despised myself so strongly, I thought that I could kill myself at any point if I give up, so why not increase my suffering by actually working diligently on my life. It was and is very painful, but there are also effects. I don't hate myself for who I am now, but I also don't escape the discomfort of the challenging things I set out to do and as long as I'm consistent it has effects and more often than not I find myself enjoying some parts of the process and these are the bits I focus on pursuing.
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Old 8th-January-2017, 12:26 AM   #5
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

I went to my local comunity college and asked if they had free classes. I am 29 yet I have only had 1 semestor of college. They said all they had free was basics so I took a test. The test was the (TABE). It says that with everything together I have a fifth-grade education level. I read at the 2nd-grade level. My vocab was the highest score, 12th grade. The test is 10 years old though. I begin classes Jan 24 - 6 PM to 10 PM, tuesday and thursday. My mom says she will take me. I tried to register for school 4 times but each atempt did not workout. I never prepared to go to college in highschool. Had a breakdown after I graduated. When to a group home and they took me to my classes for that one semester at the university. I can't get loans, I know that loans are not good. At least now I am doing basics.
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Old 9th-January-2017, 10:50 PM   #6
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

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and if I don't follow the beautiful kinds of dreams I see in my mind, nobody will.
What are some of those dreams, ..if I may ask?
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i do get some bouts of motivation every now and then but they always seem to dematerialize too soon. i know i am mostly worthless, but its so hard to accept it. to accept my mediocrity.
..why worthless?
and would it truly be a good idea to accept a feeling like that? o:

or wait, maybe you mean acceptance in the zen sort of sense, where we are humbly at peace within ourselves?

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I was getting older and my mortality was also sitting on me more heavily, slowly suffocating me. I didn't feel like I had the luxury of indecision as much either. When you are younger, it's easier just to wait and see. When you're older, it's more "now or never."
It seems there are a handful of responses to mortality that people seem to have. Some choose to despair or go numb in the shadow of its imminent arrival, and others rise up to meet it. I'm glad you chose to rise.

But you still have a chance to make it to the singularity! Though I wonder how mortality's (potential) absence will change our psychology in the future, since it is such a strong motivator for us.
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Old 10th-January-2017, 12:39 AM   #7
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

I once read a book titled getting unstuck. About depression. All i remember of it was it's critical review of how ineffective psychopharmaka are.

In my experience (hanging out with people who have social anxiety) we are successful as soon as we have chosen the correct goal and we remain stuck as soon as we have illusory ideas of what ought to be possible, either for us, [meaning we don't understand who we are,] or in the world, [meaning we don't understand society, business, people.]

And a neurosis (depression or anxiety) is exactly this.
An illusory idea of self and other.

All of this motivation talk is largely a misunderstanding of ego, because ego simply can't make anything happen at all. Only the mind changes the imagined path and as soon as the sails are right, the wind blows in the right direction, the water current is right and the icebergs are right, we will either travel around the globe or sink to the bottom of the sea, whichever is our destiny.

I read another book. It's much more interesting but really hard to read. Robert Fritz: "The path of least resistance. learning to become the creative force of your life." He speaks of this. Of rubber bands, not of wind and sails.

An example that i currently struggle with, which he also mentions in the book, i believe, is about weight loss:

If you want to make something go away (like your body fat), your motivation to stay on that diet will vanish, the closer you get to your goal. Likewise if you want to attain something (like perfect health) and are willing to fight (hunger, exercise) for it, you will become lazy, when you have it. And loose it again.

What the hell is the solution for that trap? I don't even remember what his book suggested. In fact i may not have read the whole book.

The best i know to do is to be idealistic about everything i do. So that my actions are not relative to motivations or goals at all. But they are simply the right way of being, they are my nature, perhaps my identity. Such actions are sustainable.

But it's tricky to design a concept of change or growth that makes change or growth into 'simply the right way of being', that makes them independent from motivation (desire) or goals (needs) or fears (escape).

Its easy in the case of "learning". I am always learning, for the sake of learning. Or rather curiosity.

But when it comes to extroversion, social or professional freedom, i want this stop and go, i want in and out again, this interrupts the process or won't allow a process to begin with. I just don't want 'being in the world out there' to become a permanent ideal of mine. Way too scary. But then goals, desires, needs, fears are needed to drive me into every single experiment with the world.
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Old 10th-January-2017, 12:43 AM   #8
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

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What are some of those dreams, ..if I may ask?
I don't talk about such things. It wouldn't mean much and announcing one's goals before accomplishing them feels like begging for validation.

Most of my dreams are impossible, except ultimately nothing we're capable of imagining in our minds is impossible. Simply put our brains and our thoughts can't work outside of a continuous reality, so everything we can think of is naturally attainable.

It might not make much sense and it's not meant to, it's true enough.
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Old 10th-January-2017, 03:35 AM   #9
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

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I don't talk about such things. It wouldn't mean much and announcing one's goals before accomplishing them feels like begging for validation.

Most of my dreams are impossible, except ultimately nothing we're capable of imagining in our minds is impossible. Simply put our brains and our thoughts can't work outside of a continuous reality, so everything we can think of is naturally attainable.

It might not make much sense and it's not meant to, it's true enough.
Erm no. My dreams are impossible because they break physics.
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Old 10th-January-2017, 05:29 AM   #10
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Erm no. My dreams are impossible because they break physics.
Dream physics?
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Old 10th-January-2017, 05:39 AM   #11
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

Between 2012-2013 I was stuck as a depressed, unemployed, college dropout. That was perhaps the lowest I've ever been, but it made me realize I didn't have a purpose in life up til that point, that I was living in bad faith. Like the story about the fox and the sour grapes I've always told myself "no" but really I was just afraid to say yes to myself, afraid to confront people and situations with assertiveness and afraid to put in the work to make my dreams happen. At the end of it, when I was perhaps near psychosis, at the behest of a cousin, I swallowed my pride and applied for government aid. I also registered to go back to school, although still not sure of what I wanted to pursue, not being great at math and dispassionate towards programming, but I met with a counselor and discovered that I could study networks and systems. A few months later I also got a fun job that had my body in a workout and allowed me to interact with various people, suddenly all the things I wanted to do in life started coming back to me. I decided at that point that I wouldn't allow myself to ever fall back into that dark place ever again and that I'd make short term goals for myself that I would achieve in pursuit of reaching greater heights until my last breath.

Perhaps my situation doesn't relate if your "stuck" is suffocating from ennui as an accomplished professional-creative or being in-between relationships as a tragic romantic, I guess people have their different stucks, but I wanted to share.
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Old 10th-January-2017, 11:10 AM   #12
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

I used to have a lot of motivation, inspiration and drive. My problem was despite that, I failed at what I wanted to accomplish. I restarted quite a few times in different unis and jobs with a new sense of direction, but it always ended in failure. Even things that should be simple just kinda fell through. Eventually I also got sick and together with the stress/ depression I got burned out and it took quite some time before I managed to recover from depression.

To get out of that rut, I changed my perspective quite a lot. I gave up on earlier ambitions and tried setting some more realistic goals. I accepted that a lot of the stuff I wanted to do and achieve might be impossible for me. So instead of "I want to work with physics" or "I want to manage an interesting, difficult job", my goals are more in the form of "I'm going to read book x" or "I'm going to go hiking every week". I accepted my situation, but I'm also open for things changing in the future and me being able to figure something out. I just don't feel bad anymore if things don't work out.
The process from start to finish took like 1-2 years or so, and I came out on the other side a transformed person emotionally and mentally.

I have a more moderate view on things now than what I used to have. It doesn't have to be all or nothing, small bits are okay. So I read and learn when I feel inspired, and if there are a few months where I just do useless things that is okay as well. I'm sickly, unable to work or study, but even so I feel more at peace now
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Old 10th-January-2017, 01:13 PM   #13
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

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i can feel myself degenerate with every passing year because of my lethargy
i do get some bouts of motivation every now and then but they always seem to dematerialize too soon. i know i am mostly worthless, but its so hard to accept it. to accept my mediocrity.
this may be grim, but i think some people are born with self discipline, and some simply arent. and theres nothing i can do about this. i have tried countless times since childhood to combat the lethargy, tried to talk myself into believing my efforts are fruitful and meaningful but its no use, all the while i could see almost everyone else breeze through what i struggle to finish or start. this has always been the case for me, for as long as i can remember. i dont really know what my problem is...i just know that ive been fighting apathy since forever, that im only alive through the effort of others, and that im waiting for my life to wrap up in some kind of meaningful resolve *shrugs*
I disagree with the notion that discipline cannot be learned. If you'd asked me prior to about 8-12 months ago, I'd totally agree. However, having spent the last 2 years trying as hard as I could to pull myself out of the all familiar lethargy of which you speak, I've learnt some things I believe are of some value:

1. Working hard is not enough, and is not necessarily discipline.

2. Comparing yourself to others is one of the worst ways to try and develop discipline.

3. Not everyone was taught from a young age to have discipline, but it's attainable.

4. Challenges to developing discipline (at least in my experience) boil down to a lack of understanding and/or confidence and/or accountability*




*accountability may be the key here.

Anecdote:
I absolutely struggled to develop discipline in an academic context, and upon reflection, the reason lay mostly in my natural ability to achieve top grades with the absolute minimum amount of effort. That, combined with never having anyone disappointed in me (first in family to get a higher education), was a pretty terrible starting point to develop discipline.

Fast forward to working professionally post-university and I found myself in an entirely opposite scenario where I was accountable for everything I did and there were real consequences to my actions. It didn't take long for my wake up call to come a couple of months into my first post-grad job from where I was fired. Oops. That's about when the idea that I was accountable for my actions sank in. I couldn't just glide by anymore.

So that led to a bunch of discoveries and was when I really started to understand how to attain discipline. It's something that I still work at every day, as. I absorb loads of books, podcasts, articles, etc on the topic. Things have taken off since accepting that I'm accountable for my actions and in the last year alone, I've 10x'd my productivity in my work and home lives. I do believe now that discipline is certainly attainable, but the conditions need to be right in order to trigger the internal necessity.


I'd like to say more, but I'm not sure where to start. Plus, it's past my bedtime. If anyone is interested in anything I've mentioned, let me know and I'll happily elaborate.
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Old 20th-February-2017, 11:33 PM   #14
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

There's more struggle/pain here than what I could possibly understand. But I can empathize, to different degrees, with all of you. There's some really good suggestions here, many of which I could learn a great deal from.

Quote:
I realized how much time and energy I had squandered in indecision over the years. You only live once. If you make no decisions, you don't accomplish anything.
I've been ruminating on this for a while.

I think, one type of very difficult decisions to make - which isn't logistical - is a choice to allow yourself to live a new experience. To decide to let go of grief, or bitterness. For fear of naivete; the bitterness is there for a reason! It's justified! The world's a harsh place; people are harsh and untrustworthy things. I've struggled with that one a lot.

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To get out of that rut, I changed my perspective quite a lot. I gave up on earlier ambitions and tried setting some more realistic goals. I accepted that a lot of the stuff I wanted to do and achieve might be impossible for me. So instead of "I want to work with physics" or "I want to manage an interesting, difficult job", my goals are more in the form of "I'm going to read book x" or "I'm going to go hiking every week". I accepted my situation, but I'm also open for things changing in the future and me being able to figure something out. I just don't feel bad anymore if things don't work out.
I think this is a really helpful transition in thought. It reminds me of zen a bit? Life can be wonderful in its subtle humility. Have you had any luck trying out different environments?

Immersion in new landscapes (as Jenny said; moving cities), or even just trips elsewhere, forces the mind to get unstuck.

When you're at a pier, wading your feet against the teeny fishes, staring off into the horizon; you forget it all momentarily. Then you wonder why things couldn't be this tranquil all the time. It's this close. It's right here.
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Old 21st-February-2017, 01:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

Despite appearances getting stuck is a constant companion. It's cyclical and depends on what I've got going on. For example, atm I have a project I'm working on so the down periods aren't as down as when I don't have anything particular going on. There's several cycles, weekly, monthly and yearly. I don't really keep track, but just follow my energy as it goes up and down. Generally I deal with it best through a kind of structural approach; if I have good things going on (as I mentioned) then my down periods won't be too bad.
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Old 21st-February-2017, 11:26 AM   #16
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

I do feel a bit stuck lately... not a lot going for me riight at the moment, however I have high hopes for the not too distant future and believe that things are going to turn around.

It sucks being stuck... it's like there's less pleasure at the time and it seems none is being gained for the future. I wouldn't say that's true though - getting out of a low period is equally bit important as what happens when things are going well. It's just that it's hard to see what is good in life while in that state.
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Old 22nd-February-2017, 02:15 AM   #17
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

I find that I fluctuate between existential paralysis and roleplaying Buridan's Ass. The brief period between seems to allow for basic survival functionality. Maybe eventually the external world limits my options and I'm forced to narrow my focus and be more productive. Maybe doing something drastic to force that narrowing would work.
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Old 22nd-February-2017, 04:08 AM   #18
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

Maybe you should accept being stuck. Try falling in love with the crappy moments (or stretches of time) in life with the understanding that it makes the interesting and unique insane bouts of passion that much more incredible. Like the feeling of being alone with your laptop after spending all day dealing with people, standing in line, or doing shit that just doesn't mean anything to you at all. Like hunger, boredom can make the best seasoning when finally sated.

When I'm bored my mind races, hunting endlessly for something to grab my interest. I feel like im going crazy and my fight or flight goes haywire. I calm this down by reminding myself that I am going to die. Dead. Ill be dead, like everyone and everything else and no matter what path I take that will always be the result. This helps with FOMO to. I will always be missing out on something no matter what choices I make. And blah, blah, blabbity. Diggity diggity dog frog lost in the cog time.

Haha. I got tired of my answer.
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Old 22nd-February-2017, 07:30 AM   #19
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

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I find that I fluctuate between existential paralysis and roleplaying Buridan's Ass. The brief period between seems to allow for basic survival functionality. Maybe eventually the external world limits my options and I'm forced to narrow my focus and be more productive. Maybe doing something drastic to force that narrowing would work.
I would personally recommend not doing anything drastic. The way you've phrased that makes it sound as though it is something you are overestimating the worthwhileness of (based on my own experiences) and will likely afterwards see it could have been done in a much more basic and riskfree manner. Try being proactive and giving limit to your own thought processes before the world forces such a thing upon you.
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Old 22nd-February-2017, 11:02 PM   #20
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

Dario Nardi claims that the sixth function (Ni for the INTP) has to do with this. In this video I watched, he brings up the example of the INTP and claims that those who integrate/develop Ni can have a vision and a purpose about the future, and can for example write a book or develop a theory that can have a large impact on society. However those INTP's who don't develop their Ni can, for example, dabble in ESP for fun, or won't have a clear vision of what they'll be doing in five years, or will jump from interest to interest (these are all his examples of immature Ni). Ultimately he believes that the INTP (in this example) is still and INTP, but with a well developed Ni there/s a sense of energy and purpose diffused through the background, which is missing from the less developed Ni INTP.

I'm not sure what to make of that. I have a clear sense of personal vision and don't suffer much from aimlessness at this point in my life, have I developed my Ni, possible due to having a Ni dominant partner? Or is it something else?
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Old 9th-April-2017, 05:28 PM   #21
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

Thank you Auburn for this thread. This may be cruel, but I'm glad that others share in my quiet struggle, because I appreciate your insights.

-

What is being stuck? Is it valid to say that being stuck is thinking about doing something, and never actually doing it? That is how I would describe the experience.

There is a deep frustration with having intentions, or desires, or objectives, and never taking actions towards these. There is guilt, self-loathing. And in the worst of it, despair.

-

What is the cause of this "stuck"? Why do we get stuck? Maybe indecision / ambivalence, maybe apathy, maybe fear, maybe lack of passion, or purpose, or discipline. Maybe something more primal.

People are animals. As in, we are designed by nature to survive. That's it. Survive. Have you survived? Great! Your job is done, you can stop doing things now.

There is no "stuck" when failing to take action means death. But a person can become stuck when trying to exercise, or learn a skill, or get a job, or make a life change.

The price of inaction for these is that a person losses out on getting something of value, rather than having something taken away.
For us I would say, there is no urgency to getting something that we want, so why do it right now?

So we do nothing. And this is where the mental swamp is. When a person is not immersed in their activities, their mind is still active. Unrestrained and unfocused thoughts can be rather unpleasant when in the company of unpleasant emotions.

-

How does a person become unstuck? If being stuck is caused by having intentions or desires and failing to act on it (as I would say). Then the simplest solution is don't have any intentions or desires; just accept and be content with the experiences and occurrences of your life. The reality that you are living now, is the exact one that you want.

But how boring is that? Give me a challenge, give me a struggle, let me have that pain so I know I am alive. I know about entropy. I know about absurdity. I know no matter how hard I fight to make my visions reality, it's ultimately for nothing. But let me do it anyway, because that is where the thrill of being alive is. It's in the effort. It's in the knowledge that you'll fail, but you will put on one hell of a show.

So I don't want to be stuck, and I don't want to be content. I want to sweat. I want to be bleed. I want to feel the ache in my muscle, and the terror of the unknown. I want to be exhausted at the end of each day. I want to feel alive.

-

How does a person become unstuck?

Unfortunately, solutions seems to be found only in the external world; things that a person would have very little control over. Things like, a desperate situation, other people choosing the put their faith in you, having responsibilities with real consequences.

For me, sometimes it seems that my passions and efforts can only be called upon by the behest of another. I can't seem to invoke such things from myself. I feel as if I am on a shelf, just waiting for someone to make use of me.
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Old 19th-April-2017, 12:11 AM   #22
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

I would like to avoid any changes in live that are unpredictable due to participation of the rest of the world. all the change i love is limited to working with objects or at most dealing with one person at a time, in purely private manner. but if i ever consider surrendering to the unpredictable, i seem to desire doing it through introverted intuition. which does not come easily to me and i do not trust it. but in moments of total catastrophal urgency and typical unpreparedness, cluelessness of how the world works, i seem to expect that reality is that simple and that with the right attitude of the soul, meaning the right set of intentions, precisely what Ni is about, everything ought to manifest in a desirable manner, "wonders are possible", if I just take one step at a time, without knowing where i am going, life will magically guide me to a good place. and i am subscribed to all those gurus who speak as if its easy, but are other types (adyashanti, teal swan, etc). but since my own steps or actions do not actually occur in the spirit of my best momentary glimpses of good Ni, but are in the grip of feelings and thoughts, aversions and prejudices, i end up with another result altogether and never find out, if the path of Ni would have worked out, if i had been able to walk it. meanwhile i am still actively busy repressing the idea that reality requires much more than the right intentions, that detailed research, diligent footwork, moves unimaginable to me would be required, to manifest anything worthwhile. i repress this idea, because i have no idea how to start with those small things and a strong fear prevents me from trial and error. every-time i think about the little things, the phone book, the buerocracy i feel a sense of inhumane systems and psychopathic agendas (Te?) intruding into my life and wiping out my soul. so i would strongly prefer if Ni was all that is needed to live the real life or alternatively that the real life can be continuously avoided, that my parents / heritage / social security will forever pay my shizoid existence behind a computer. so what is this fetish with Ni? is it what socionics calls the demonstrative function of types with auxiliary Ne? or is it tertiary Ni? and my intense anxiety of becoming dependent on getting details right, which is really about standards defined by society, like how you can't bring metal into an airplane, must know your social security number, bring papers, etc? Fi vs Te or inferior Fe? Am terribly shamed for not knowing all of their conventions and demands but am also utterly unwilling to learn about any of them, so resentful of them. Doomed to be a beggar or a thief.
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Old 19th-April-2017, 05:23 PM   #23
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I think this is a really helpful transition in thought. It reminds me of zen a bit? Life can be wonderful in its subtle humility. Have you had any luck trying out different environments?

Immersion in new landscapes (as Jenny said; moving cities), or even just trips elsewhere, forces the mind to get unstuck.

When you're at a pier, wading your feet against the teeny fishes, staring off into the horizon; you forget it all momentarily. Then you wonder why things couldn't be this tranquil all the time. It's this close. It's right here.
I rent a tiny house on the country, and live two houses from a fjord and not much longer to various mountain trails. I've been feeling more sick the last couple of months, so I haven't had energy at all to do anything. Even if I did go out, I just find myself wanting to go home and lie down on the couch, maybe sleep so I can not-exist for a while. I've also been amazingly negative of thought. Getting better now, it seems, though. These things tend to come in cycles. There's not much energy to do much or experience new things. I've also had some personal stressful events which drains me as well. Oh well, I seem to be about to go into a better cycle, so no worries
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Old 19th-April-2017, 06:36 PM   #24
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

I do hope you get better Minuend. I always thought you were the most cheerful person here in text, so it's weird and hard to imagine what you're going through.
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Old 19th-April-2017, 06:54 PM   #25
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Thanks, Esc. I sometimes feel a bit starved for positive feedback due to my isolation and stuffies. And it's also kinda weird to me how my life turned out. It's certainly far from my plans for life. I'm grateful for the type of security we have in my country, though. I know I'm given a lot more than most people out there, more than I deserve probably
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Old 23rd-April-2017, 02:38 AM   #26
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

I've set 2 extraordinarily difficult goals for myself. 1) ship a game "of substance" that I actually like, that meets all of my artistic and Existential criteria. 2) resolve my hatred of the way the computer industry does computer programming. Currently this has led me to believe that I have to invent a programming language to solve the problem, because I haven't seen anyone else solve it. It's all crap out there.

These goals are taking an extraordinarily long time to accomplish anything on. I may not be stuck, but to the extent that I'm moving forwards, it's molasses. I'll work on something like "language type system implementation" on paper, then conclude for some reason, that I have absolutely nothing, that I've blundered into a design dead end. It's difficult to pick up the pieces after that. It results in weeks of "JFC", just finding something else to do for awhile. And it's difficult to make progress on a huge goal, when a psychological setback, destroys one's willingness to move forwards for weeks at at time.

That said, there's more than 1 life goal and things can be done round robin. I may not have moved the needle forwards on any of my real problems recently, but I did change the oil in my car, and a few other nagging maintenance things like that. Those aren't without value, because when left unattended, they have a nasty way of leaving me stranded somewhere. I'm more vulnerable to that than most, as I live out of my car with my dog. If it doesn't keep running, my current lifestyle ends.

I have a number of unmet social needs as well. All I can do, is keep trying some new avenue. If the same old same old isn't getting me what I want, then I can't very well 'just' keep doing that. It doesn't work. Have to try something else. Unfortunately, "trying something else" doesn't typically yield any results either. It's just that, I know that's the only possible way. So after setbacks I try again. Even though I've gone years and years and years with similar basic problems.

Some people say, why don't you go compromise yourself and get a big fat paycheck, so you can buy your way out of some of this? Because at the various times when I had fat paychecks compared to my current meager means, nothing got solved that way. I really am a poster child for "money can't buy happiness." I hate taking orders from anybody, and I have a strong aversion to "going backwards", trying life strategies that I've already been there, done that with. I've had good paying jobs, I've had menial survival make ends meet and pay the rent jobs. I prefer no job, and fixing my car. It has some bad aspects, but I'm suited to dealing with them, and the alternatives are worse.

I figured out a good number of years ago:

- you are going to get lost. Don't beat yourself up about that too hard. With a complex, difficult undertaking, it's inevitable.

- you aren't going to realize when you're lost. That's what being lost is.

- When you finally realize you're lost, try to get found again. Put your energy somehow into that.

That's all I've got. When I'm some famous game designing multi-millionaire doing exactly what he wants, you can say you knew me when I was suffering hard, like a good little artsy fartsy. I've got 1 lifetime to spend on this, and it might as well be for this. I'm starting to wonder if a family is never going to happen, but if it doesn't, hey at least the planet doesn't actually need more people on it. I can either put an idea into the world, that takes hold and spreads and continues to have value, or I cannot.

I take some comfort in knowing that only Alzheimer's or getting hit by a truck, can stop me from pursuing these goals. I can work on computer problems as long as my mind is sound, even if I become very, very old.
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Old 23rd-April-2017, 01:26 PM   #27
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Default Re: Getting Unstuck, Evolution & Growth

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Thanks, Esc. I sometimes feel a bit starved for positive feedback due to my isolation and stuffies. And it's also kinda weird to me how my life turned out. It's certainly far from my plans for life. I'm grateful for the type of security we have in my country, though. I know I'm given a lot more than most people out there, more than I deserve probably
What sort of plans did you have in mind?
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Old 26th-April-2017, 08:04 PM   #28
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What sort of plans did you have in mind?
Pretty much anything else. Though, I guess one of main goals was taking a higher education and work with something I was really into. Being somewhere I'd feel challenged and had to keep learning new things. My backup plan was doing something I didn't care for, but save enough money to at least have some freedom to do whatever I wanted. I guess, adapting to the way things work in a way that would have some sort of positive outcome for me. Well, there's still a chance these things are temporary. I don't tend to feel too bummed about it, except when I feel at my worst. After all, there are worse things that could happen and stuffs. I know I can be a bit complainy and dramatic at times
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Old 28th-April-2017, 07:44 AM   #29
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Pretty much anything else. Though, I guess one of main goals was taking a higher education and work with something I was really into. Being somewhere I'd feel challenged and had to keep learning new things. My backup plan was doing something I didn't care for, but save enough money to at least have some freedom to do whatever I wanted. I guess, adapting to the way things work in a way that would have some sort of positive outcome for me. Well, there's still a chance these things are temporary. I don't tend to feel too bummed about it, except when I feel at my worst. After all, there are worse things that could happen and stuffs. I know I can be a bit complainy and dramatic at times
Is it possible your goals here are still achievable? If it will make you happy I say go for it. No one who matters will judge you negatively for trying again. I'm sure someone wouldn't mind if you needed a person to discuss your plans with.


I get that sometimes we just want to vent and nothing more. In that case, maybe it helps your isolation to know at least one person was listening. (totallynotcreepy)
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Old 28th-April-2017, 10:15 AM   #30
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Hehe, I don't find it creepy at all

Goals are not that achievable as of today. But I hope some time in the future. Maybe in a few years. Depends on how things develop. We'll see
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Old 4th-May-2017, 08:05 AM   #31
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There's more struggle/pain here than what I could possibly understand. But I can empathize, to different degrees, with all of you. There's some really good suggestions here, many of which I could learn a great deal from.
From what I read, I agree. I always feel older than other forumites, so let me wax reminiscent for a very wee bit.

The only way to successfully escape your rut is to plan. It's best to use cold, hard logic; you must be financially and emotionally self-sufficient before you jump. Although I know plenty of people move to be with their Love, and it works for them, don't assume that will work for you. Romance overrules rational thought. Hell, just make decisions drunk, not much difference.

Don't allow yourself to become so desperate for change that you jump in your car and drive forever, "I'm staying wherever I am at eight o'clock tomorrow morning. I better drive like hell." "Darts and a map" sounds fun, but nah. Unless you have wealth. Then do whatever you want.

However, a bad move can leave the rest of us broke, sans social support, and perhaps trapped.

Who are you? Are you always bored and dissatisfied after two-three years? If so, don't assume that the problem is your location. It's you. So, plan on staying afoot for decades.

Absolutely don't act on whims: Don't say "Fuck it, good enough," and don't expect A Land of Lollipops and Roses. Be realistic about who you are and what you can handle. Kick into Vulcan-mode.

Think of your family. In my case, I will simply have to crate them and consider them my ball-and-ch, ahem, dependents for life. Would you be comfortable leaving an old parent or relative with no support? I would not. So, my mom (73) and J kid (Asperger's and unsuited for independent living) are coming, because staying for them or leaving without them =/= no go. Luckily, I'm the one who makes all the calls. Where, how, etc

What if you die? Seriously, find a plot and a funeral home. If you don't know anyone, develop a social safety net asap.

Make the most of your new environment! If you've lived in Kentucky all your life, and you move to CA, awesome.

If you jump, jump far enough. Not from Kansas to Tennessee. Come on.
. ;-)

I've been ruminating on this for a while.

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I think, one type of very difficult decisions to make - which isn't logistical - is a choice to allow yourself to live a new experience. To decide to let go of grief, or bitterness. For fear of naivete; the bitterness is there for a reason! It's justified! The world's a harsh place; people are harsh and untrustworthy things. I've struggled with that one a lot.
It takes courage to start over; it also takes courage to accept that people are basically the same everywhere. Peel away cultural superficialities and, damn it, just another jerky person.



I think this is a really helpful transition in thought. It reminds me of zen a bit? Life can be wonderful in its subtle humility. Have you had any luck trying out different environments?

Immersion in new landscapes (as Jenny said; moving cities), or even just trips elsewhere, forces the mind to get unstuck.

When you're at a pier, wading your feet against the teeny fishes, staring off into the horizon; you forget it all momentarily. Then you wonder why things couldn't be this tranquil all the time. It's this close. It's right here.[/QUOTE]
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"Is that your shadow Fe talking right now? You have been under tremendous stress."

How is MBTI falsifiable? That's a troubling question.
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