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Old 24th-October-2015, 12:44 AM   #101
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Lightbulb Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

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Metaphysicality is intrinsically mental because if it was not there would be no means by which philosophers, mystics, whoever, could experience it. So, of course, a challenge to metaphysicality is the possibility that it could be explained in terms of neurology, or some other field, and that it is an elaborate illusion.

The essential intellectual challenge of metaphysicists then is to find some means by which they can demonstrate the reality of metaphysicality outside of the experience of metaphysicality. If they cannot do this, they cannot have true intellectual integrity imo. In this respect, I think I hold RB's view: if this was the case the study of it would become an extension of the natural sciences, and the term metaphysicality would simply be a convenient means by which we categorise one order of experience/ forces from another.
My essential issue with metaphysics is that it's so poorly defined, yet people try to define specific things using it. This lends it the same air of being unassailable as someone's personal religion. The lack of universal definition leads to it being used less as a descriptive term that allows for greater understanding, but as more of an excusatory label used to describe things not well understood and to not have one's understanding questioned.

Many apparently metaphysical concepts, when analysed more closely either end up diverging on some natural phenomena or their origins are simply not understood as of yet. The biggest example of what people usually consider metaphysical is language, from which nearly all, "metaphysical" concepts arise. I briefly touched on language as being an emergent natural phenomena.

Metaphysics operates seemingly exclusively in the realm of things not yet defined or apparently intangible. So you never really have to be wrong or reevaluate your understanding with metaphysical concepts. The urgent impetus to analyse and understand things more deeply is diminished to a matter of convenience at best, and sometimes even lost entirely.
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Old 24th-October-2015, 01:19 AM   #102
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

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My essential issue with metaphysics is that it's so poorly defined, yet people try to define specific things using it. This lends it the same air of being unassailable as someone's personal religion. The lack of universal definition leads to it being used less as a descriptive term that allows for greater understanding, but as more of an excusatory label used to describe things not well understood and to not have one's understanding questioned.

Many apparently metaphysical concepts, when analysed more closely either end up diverging on some natural phenomena or their origins are simply not understood as of yet. The biggest example of what people usually consider metaphysical is language, from which nearly all, "metaphysical" concepts arise. I briefly touched on language as being an emergent natural phenomena.

Metaphysics operates exclusively in the realm of things not yet defined or apparently intangible. So you never really have to be wrong or reevaluate your understanding with metaphysical concepts. The urgent impetus to analyse and understand things more deeply is diminished to a matter of convenience at best, and sometimes even lost entirely.
Well, for example lets go with Hindu Kundalini-Yoga (that dates back to the Vedas, and has a very long tradition.) I have absolutely no doubt in my mind at all from personal experience that the system proper is a precise method that creates definite physiological and neuro-chemical affects (that I would really love to see Western science study more). If someone takes the system to its culmination (I haven't, but I've observed the method working and so am willing to give people's reports the benefit of the doubt) they will experience some form of "illuminatory" state in which they perceive to have transcended time & space and reunited with some deeper level of reality, etc.

So, all the metaphysics while something they've had to transcribe into thoughts here, are based upon their observations of those experiences. But that's why I wrote the two paragraphs you highlighted. We could reasonably assume that they experienced that, but we would then start asking questions like, what was happening neuro-chemically while that experience was happening, and could reduce it to a physical explanation. That might not disprove the metaphysicality in itself, but unless they give us a set of observations that we can test outside of their experience that demonstrates something of that experience's relevance to the world we live in we're forced to be agnostic about it.

So, I guess my issue would be, maybe like yours, that a) we have to take metaphysicists on faith that they're observations are correct, b) even if we test their method for ourselves, we need some means of testing what we glean from it outside of the results of that method because of its nature as experiential.
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Old 24th-October-2015, 01:37 AM   #103
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

I'm at work so don't have time for detail, apologies in advance for not covering all of your post. Wanted to talk more about the, "illuminatory" state you mentioned. It has been studied in neurological terms actually. You should ask Pol about it, she explains better than me and has assimilated more knowledge

That feeling of transcending time and space in neurological terms, is a decreasing of brain activity in specific areas. Basically the parts of your brain that are responsible for the way we perceive the world can be altered through things like meditation, drugs and near-death experiences.

When they shut down, the filter that normally makes us perceive, say, the bird on the window sill as a separate entity to our own is removed. So it brings a feeling of, "oneness" with the world and of, "expansiveness". Ironically it's actually a decrease in brain activity that brings such a feeling by removing that filter.

That's a very crude explanation for now, I'll provide some links when I have more time. In any case I agree with you - I don't discount nor see the need to discount these sorts of apparently enlightened experiences. I personally couldn't because I've had them myself playing music, sports and even competitive video games.

People who engage in activities that promote this mental state (skill-based, requiring deep concentration) also become more efficient at accessing it in other activities. You could relate it to how playing an instrument at an early age correlates with improved language and mathematics ability.
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Old 24th-October-2015, 01:50 AM   #104
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

^ I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk about it some time soon so don't worry about it. I assumed there would be a neurological correlation; I would be surprised if certain aspects of yoga had received deep treatment in the West given its relative unfamiliarity to our culture, but I would be interested in reading the sources.
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Old 26th-October-2015, 09:17 PM   #105
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Old 27th-October-2015, 02:54 AM   #106
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

^^^ Thanks!

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My essential issue with metaphysics is that it's so poorly defined, yet people try to define specific things using it.
No, you ask for specific details on a concept that is abstract and has no specific boundaries. There are multiple variations of metaphysics and the meaning changes over time. You're trying to judge something abstract using a concrete model. You can't look at metaphysics like a science and call it flawed because it's not science. Yeah, it's NOT science.

That's the benefit of metaphysics over science is that it is abstract and doesn't limit itself in the same ways.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 04:57 AM   #107
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

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You're trying to judge something abstract using a concrete model. You can't look at metaphysics like a science and call it flawed because it's not science. Yeah, it's NOT science.

That's the benefit of metaphysics over science is that it is abstract and doesn't limit itself in the same ways.
Do us both a favour and stop responding to my posts.

You're still missing the point and by now I'm fairly sure it's not because I've explained it poorly. Especially since there's people who've grasped it pretty damn easily. There is no, "science vs metaphysics" thing going on. The only one who apparently thinks in those kinds of axioms is yourself.

Like I said, abstract is just abstract. Being abstract doesn't mean something isn't natural.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 05:10 AM   #108
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

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Do us both a favour and stop responding to my posts.
No thanks.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood your point.

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Like I said, abstract is just abstract. Being abstract doesn't mean something isn't natural.
I agree with that, and it is natural.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 05:20 AM   #109
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

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I'm sorry if I misunderstood your point.
Fair enough. Guess I can't really blame stupid people for being stupid.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 05:27 AM   #110
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

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Fair enough. Guess I can't really blame stupid people for being stupid.
I take the title "village idiot" very seriously.

Isn't metaphysics the study of the the nature of things?

The natural answer is the most obvious model of reality.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 05:34 AM   #111
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

Hxr, go easy on your self..For the sake of fair representation, I had inboxes from two people laughing at Redbarons contributions here.

I can see the point Redbaron is trying to make, but the facts are that the Metaphysical is of the spiritual, the unseen and the immeasurable, if Redbaron wants to argue with some of the greatest philosophers this world has ever seen, then so be it.

My favorite metaphysical subject is UFOlogy, Jaques Valle and Carl Jung cover their metaphysical nature extensively, if the Bloody Baron wants to explore a case study which pits Natural Science against the Metaphsyical, this is one case I could work with particularly well.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 05:55 AM   #112
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

I really like Jung. Jung has a lot of ideas and they all sounded like crack-pot ideas, but it did lead to him make huge discoveries.

What is reality vs. appearance?

Nature has an appearance, and a reality. There is existence outside of our perception. Black holes for example.

Does nothing exist?

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Hxr, go easy on your self..For the sake of fair representation, I had inboxes from two people laughing at Redbarons contributions here.
How many did you get about me? lol
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Old 27th-October-2015, 06:17 AM   #113
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

One thing that I do agree with Red on, is that metaphysics is difficult to understand.

I really like the idea of meta-reflection. That's really how psychology works at every level if you think abstractly about it. I think it is the core the understanding AI. But how do you abstract something and compare it to another abstract thing with technology? You figure that out, and then you have AI.

The MBTI and Jung’s types are naturally (for Red) mirrored. If two things are the same, then why have two? Evolution would have made the brain have one hemisphere if duality and reflection wasn't important to consciousness. I mean it has a purpose. But at the same time, there is another duality of brain and mind. Then there is another mirrored duality of mind and soul (or whatever alludes humans to believe in free will). Then there’s the duality between the soul and a god. You don't have to believe in a god to imagine these might be dualities. Maybe I got them in the wrong order.

Another question to ask is what exists? What is a mirrored reflection of existence? Is a mirrored reflection of existence nothingness, or somethingness?

I imagined a memory system that had dual copies of things to indicate that there was more than one. But they’re the exact same, so why not just increment a number and say the other one exists? As soon as you do that, the other one doesn’t exist anymore, and you remove the increment. So does an idea exist as a metaphysical object with its own set of properties? Or can properties define it and it can exist without actually existing as a database record.

What about this... Is the Big Bang a meta-reflection? The duality between nonexistence and existence? Existence necessitates non-existence and non-existence necessitates existence, or else nothing would exist. It binds everything in place, some dominant anchor in reality that we perceive.

Edit... I'm adding more...

Also, abstractly thinking, if the stars are all there because of the natural order of things, then it's representative of natural reality. So the placement would be significant. I think of Astrology as an abstract meta-reflection of the placements of the starts, relative to your placement and the spin of the earth. We have 3 main references of time, the sun, the moon, and the rest of space. You can look closer and see other meta-reflective natural realities.

If DNA is evolving abstractly by the same pattern that space-time evolves, then the relative locations of these different objects are significant because out psychology operates on the same logical rules. They are such solid rules that they operate as close to perfect order as possible. Then when you get to consciouness, the rules change somehow? I don't think so...
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Old 27th-October-2015, 06:48 AM   #114
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

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The MBTI and Jung’s types are naturally (for Red) mirrored. If two things are the same, then why have two?
Poor example since Jung and MBTI aren't the same.

For the sake of aegument though: if two things really were exactly the same, for what reason would you have two names? (Other than for classification purposes)

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Originally Posted by Sinny91
but the facts are that the Metaphysical is of the spiritual, the unseen and the immeasurable,
Define spiritual.

Also do these unseen and immeasurable things affect the physical world? Being unseen and immeasurable doesn't make something not physical and if they affect the physical world, they are by definition, not metaphysical.

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if the stars are all there because of the natural order of things, then it's representative of natural reality.So the placement would be significant
Burden of proof now falls on you to demonstrate that natural order exists, is significant and that it also places significance on "star placement".

~

So far the only defense conjured up for metaphysicality's existence could be summarised as, "you can't prove it's not real."

I guess that's the appeal of it. You get to theorise about whatever bullshit you want, without the downside of ever having to be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Sinny91
Hxr, go easy on your self..For the sake of fair representation, I had inboxes from two people laughing at Redbarons contributions here.
Only two? Hehe.

Also good work on continuing to be a cowardly worm, neglecting to engage in discussion and instead just sitting around giving proverbial blowjobs to computerhxr.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 06:59 AM   #115
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

Neglecting to engage in discussion, are the pixels on your screen projecting the same photons which I see? Lol

But ill leave you alone, I refuse to sit here and redefine currently accepted concepts, for the purpose of... well what exactly?

Obviously the aim of science is to reduce everything down to the measurable, but until that happens, there are some things that are beyond our current understanding and that is what's known as the Metaphsyical.

Natural science concludes existence was the result of nothing going BANG and then becoming something. Metaphysics, is knowing that that is completely irrational and probably false.

That's ironic really.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 07:02 AM   #116
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

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Poor example since Jung and MBTI aren't the same.
Yes, Jung is a person and the MBTI is not.

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For the sake of aegument though: if two things really were exactly the same, for what reason would you have two names? (Other than for classification purposes)
Classification is what meta is. I never claimed that metaphysics was exactly the same as naturalism, or anything like that if that's what you're thinking.

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Define spiritual.
No thanks.

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Also do these unseen and immeasurable things affect the physical world? Being unseen and immeasurable doesn't make something not physical and if they affect the physical world, they are by definition, not metaphysical.
It can affect everything by moving all of our existence about. But everything inside can remain stable and static. So it can affect the physical world without being perceptible.

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Burden of proof now falls on you to demonstrate that natural order exists, is significant and that it also places significance on "star placement".
Okay, since you can't demonstrate it, I guess someone should.

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So far the only defense conjured up for metaphysicality's existence could be summarised as, "you can't prove it's not real."
Not at all. You're the only one here that is wanting proof of any sort. We just want to discuss metaphysics.


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I guess that's the appeal of it. You get to theorise about whatever bullshit you want, without the downside of ever having to be wrong.
And the appeal of your opinion is that you don't have one because nature explains it. No risk in any of your claims because they are so simple and easy to understand.

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Also good work on continuing to be a cowardly worm, neglecting to engage in discussion and instead just sitting around giving proverbial blowjobs to computerhxr.
Lol... The irony of that statement.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 07:04 AM   #117
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

So far you've done nothing but dodge this question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by redbaron
Do these unseen and immeasurable things affect the physical world? Being unseen and immeasurable doesn't make something not physical and if they affect the physical world, they are by definition not metaphysical.
Or you could delete your post.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 07:11 AM   #118
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

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So far you've done nothing but dodge this question:
Really, I tried addressing every line of what you said, and I'm the one dodging questions? hahahahah.

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Do these unseen and immeasurable things affect the physical world? Being unseen and immeasurable doesn't make something not physical and if they affect the physical world, they are by definition, not metaphysical.
I thought you said the problem with metaphysics is that it didn't have a definition? But since you're the expert on metaphysics now I guess you already know the answer to your own question.

Spoiler:

If all of our reality was being shaken around violently, except, everything that we perceive remained stable, you wouldn't be able to measure it unless you were on the outside watching it shake about. It is changing our position but everything changes position at exactly the same rate of change. So it affects everything all at once and you wouldn't have a clue.


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Do UFOs exist in the real world?
Unidentified flying objects? Absolutely! I see things flying around and I'm like, WTF is that?! And no one can tell me what it was. Spooky right?
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Old 27th-October-2015, 07:16 AM   #119
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Really, I tried addressing every line of what you said, and I'm the one dodging questions?
Was directed at Sinny.

You didn't try very hard obviously.

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Originally Posted by computerhxr
I thought you said the problem with metaphysics is that it didn't have a definition? But since you're the expert on metaphysics now I guess you already know the answer to your own question.
That's actually dodging the question.

Quote:
Unidentified flying objects? Absolutely! I see things flying around and I'm like, WTF is that?! And no one can tell me what it was. Spooky right?
So you see them and they're physical. Or you're shizophrenic and your brain is physically altered from the rest of us. So we can at least agree the phenomenon isn't actually metaphysical. Great.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 07:21 AM   #120
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

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That's actually dodging the question.
It's called comedy. Read the spoiler! I didn't think you were sitting around refreshing so quickly. I thought I had 15 seconds to make a quick edit before you replied. LOL

Oh snap, actually, I answered your question twice. I didn't dodge it!

http://intpforum.com/showpost.php?p=...&postcount=116

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Also do these unseen and immeasurable things affect the physical world? Being unseen and immeasurable doesn't make something not physical and if they affect the physical world, they are by definition, not metaphysical.
It can affect everything by moving all of our existence about. But everything inside can remain stable and static. So it can affect the physical world without being perceptible.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 07:22 AM   #121
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Do these unseen and immeasurable things affect the physical world?
Yes.

UV light, gravity, bacteria.. at one point in time all of these things were immeasurable by us, but that didn't stop them from affecting the physical world. You seem to be arguing that the Metaphsyical can and always will be measurable.. but that completely depends on human advancement and perception.

Advanced science is indistinguishable from magic.

You are arguing a probability which is equally as likely as any other.

Yes, maybe one day what we term metapysical will no longer be a mystery, and it will have a name and an official science to it. But until then, it's in the realm of the abstract, we have no scientific method for its measurement, and it's open to speculation, and that is why we term it metapsyical instead of Natural Science.


Quote:
Being unseen and immeasurable doesn't make something not physical and if they affect the physical world, they are by definition not metaphysical.
The UFO is all of these things and yet your beloved science fails to answer the question adequately.

And I must say of all the arguments I've seen you create and attempt to win, this is the silliest. You randomly coming in to profess that Metaphysics as a branch of philosophy has no basis to exist, and then you ask us to defend Metaphysics as a legitimate branch of philosophy, rather than present your own thesis in challenge to all of historys metaphysical philosophers..I charge YOU with being the biggest coward in this thread.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 07:34 AM   #122
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It can affect everything by moving all of our existence about. But everything inside can remain stable and static. So it can affect the physical world without being perceptible.
By this definition, it's still not metaphysical because it affects the physical world.

Being imperceptible doesn't make something metaphysical.

Quote:
Okay, since you can't demonstrate it, I guess someone should.
I'm not the one claiming any of those things.

Quote:
Not at all. You're the only one here that is wanting proof of any sort. We just want to discuss metaphysics.
So discuss metaphysics then. I was discussing the concept of metaphysics with Puffy just fine. The fact that you either can't seem to understand my point or that you don't like the point doesn't stop you from discussing whatever you consider metaphysics.

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And the appeal of your opinion is that you don't have one because nature explains it. No risk in any of your claims because they are so simple and easy to understand.
Actually it's the total opposite. Every single claim I make is falsifiable and I don't shy from being proven wrong. Every time I make a claim I take a risk because I never retreat into the realm of, "it's like my own personal definition man".

I always make an effort to substantiate what it is I'm talking about by providing people with definitions and context that people can contest if they want.

As for simple, don't make me laugh. You've so far failed to identify a single system that can hold a candle to ecology in terms of complexity and your understanding of electromagnetism is literally embarrassing to read about. You don't get to call it simple when you don't even understand it.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 07:41 AM   #123
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As for simple, don't make me laugh. You've so far failed to identify a single system that can hold a candle to ecology in terms of complexity and your understanding of electromagnetism is literally embarrassing to read about. You don't get to call it simple when you don't even understand it.
Your claims are simple, not the science. There is nothing complex about defaulting on something you didn't even think of. And besides, are we talking about nature or science? You keep changing and telling me that I bring up science but you keep bringing it up.

You were the embarrassment. You never showed any evidence for any of your claims. Show evidence that electricity is the foundation of biology or whatever your claim was.

You just call it a natural cause, so that's your evidence.

How do you expect me to make sense when you can't even be consistent.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 07:54 AM   #124
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Metaphysics as a legitimate branch of philosophy, rather than present your own thesis in challenge to all of historys metaphysical philosophers..I charge YOU with being the biggest coward in this thread.
I already did present the reasoning with two basic axioms.

1. If it affects the physical world, it's physical by definition.

2. Nothing that is considered metaphysical can independently be evaluated as not being natural.

#1 is easy enough to understand.

#2 implies that what people are doing is using metaphysical as a label for things that simply aren't understood. Which still doesn't make something not natural. This is adequately expressed by your previous paragraph:

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Originally Posted by Sinny91
Yes, maybe one day what we term metapsyical will no longer be a mystery, and it will have a name and an official science to it. But until then, it's in the realm of the abstract, we have no scientific method for its measurement, and it's open to speculation, and that is why we term it metapsyical instead of Natural Science.
And so here lies the heart of my issue with the term, "metaphysical". There's two main scenarios that I witness.

1. For some people, it simply means what you've described: the study of natural things that we don't yet understand. In which case the label is redundant. At best it's misleading. The question I'm asking is, "Why call it metaphysical?" There's nothing wrong with saying, "I don't understand yet."

2. For others, it means that they truly believe the thing they're studying is otherworldly and the product of a "spirit-realm" or "god" that exists separately from our own reality. Here at its worst, metaphysicality becomes an excuse for delusion, an attempt to feign legitimacy for things not actually legitimate.

The issue with scenario #1 is that the term is at best clunky and at worst, deliberately misleading and arrogant.

The issue with #2 is that it's at best arrogant and at worst delusional.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 08:00 AM   #125
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^^^ LOL

Define the "physical world"

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2. Nothing that is considered metaphysical can independently be evaluated as not being natural.
Evidence?
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Old 27th-October-2015, 08:12 AM   #126
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Show evidence that electricity is the foundation of biology or whatever your claim was.
The claim was that electromagnetism is the basis of biology. And it is. I'll gladly demonstrate why I say that (although I already have).

1. EM is what binds electrons into orbit around nuclei to form atoms. So there's that.
2. EM is what bonds molecules together. Without EM, we don't even have the capacity for compounds and therefore life (biology).
3. Our muscles and nervous system are regulated by electrical fields. Again without EM we don't have the capacity to move or think.

All biology is compound constructs utilising electrical fields to power their nervous system and musculatures. It's why we need to eat, because we need fuel to convert to electricity if we want to do anything.

When I said EM is the basis of biology, I honestly didn't even expect it to be contested. It's basically mandatory learning for anyone studying biology for a good reason - it's the fundamental force governing everything you're going to learn. Biologists eventually tend to leap into learning about more "complex" things like DNA, body tissue and whatnot but it's quite simple:

Without EM you don't get compounds. Without compounds you don't get life. Without life you don't get biology.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 08:25 AM   #127
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If we ask why do things exist then that does require metaphysics.
Just because it exists it does not in itself explain why it exists.
Look at your hand, why is it not empty space?
It's like asking why is blue blue.
A ruler will not tell you why.
Is synchronicity a natural event?
If is was not than how did I experience it?
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Old 27th-October-2015, 08:33 AM   #128
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...
I was never contesting it. Electricity and electromagnetism were not the same. You keep changing terms that you use and act like they mean the same thing. Then you demand for us to define and prove things. You use words like physical world to mean more than just the world. I realize electromagnetism is part of biology. It's also part of everything, so really you're not saying much of anything when you bring it up.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 08:44 AM   #129
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Is synchronicity a natural event?
That is a really good question. I think the cause of the events is an aggregate force from all matter.

If you line up two sets of dominoes and have two random people knock them down at the same time, and in the end one triggers a balloon to fill up with gas, and the other triggers the balloon to pop with a needle. What is the cause of the balloon to pop?

The cause is the two people, the dominoes, the people who setup the domonoes and planned the event, the mechanism that blows up the balloon, and the mechanism that pops the balloon. Without all of those things, then the balloon wouldn't have been popped.

So they are in sync with each other, and there is no determinable causal connection.

What I want to know, is the setting up of the dominoes natural? Does that mean there is no free will if nature is the only force?

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Metaphysical naturalism, also called "ontological naturalism" and "philosophical naturalism", is a philosophical worldview and belief system that holds that there is nothing but natural elements, principles, and relations of the kind studied by the natural sciences, i.e., those required to understand our physical environment by mathematical modeling.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 08:49 AM   #130
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So they are in sync with each other, and there is no determinable causal connection.
What about Chaos Theory?
Being non-linear does not make it without cause.
It would be multi-causal.

Edit to add:
Mental processes of understanding reality could involve Chaos Theory. Usually understanding things as a mind does and with volition create Order.
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Old 27th-October-2015, 08:55 AM   #131
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The difficulty arises out of the attempt to scientifically study and objectify something which, by its very nature, cannot become an object of our scientific studies. This reigning belief that everything can be explained scientifically in terms of natural causes - referred to as naturalism - compels many to think that only what is seen or sensed, only what can be hypothesized and tested can be true, and therefore, meaningful to us as humans.

Recently, however, even as metaphysics has come under attack for its apparent lack of access to real knowledge, so has science begun to have its own difficulties in claiming absolute knowledge. Continual developments in our understanding of the human thought process reveals that science cannot solely be relied upon to explain reality, for the human mind cannot be seen as simply a mirror of the natural world. For example, since the act of scientific observation itself tends to produce the reality it hopes to explain, the so-called "truths" of science cannot be considered as final or objective. This fact manifests itself over and over again, as scientific truths and laws continue to break down or yield to new and better explanations of reality. What becomes apparent, therefore, is that the process of human interpretation in the sciences, as elsewhere, is both variable and relative to the observer's viewpoint.

Under the skeptical analyses of the philosophical movements known as*postmodernism*anddeconstructionism, all of these facts have resulted in a modern repudiation of both metaphysics and science. Their criticisms are based on the cultural and historical relativity of all knowledge. These two philosophical "schools" deny any existence at all of an objective or universal knowledge. Thus, metaphysical claims stand today between the absolutist claims of science (scientism) and the complete relativism of postmodernism and deconstructionism.
http://www.pbs.org/faithandreason/ge...taph-body.html


https://theobservereffect.wordpress....g/metaphysics/
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Old 27th-October-2015, 09:24 AM   #132
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What about Chaos Theory?
Being non-linear does not make it without cause.
It would be multi-causal.
Is chaos natural?

I agree, it's an aggregate cause, or abstract cause. The forces at play in a larger abstract causality would be many times more complex and with a less discernible cause.

Like, does us driving cause a storm? Well, maybe CO2 emissions cause one thing, and then another until it adds to an already building storm. So it's not the cause but it's part of it.

Jung's example with the scarab beetle may be an aggregate psychology. Something caused the beetle to end up in their presence. Was it the psychology of the beetle? Was it the wind that blew it there? Did they see the beetle earlier and not make anything of it, but later when it had significance they noticed something that was there all along?

I think synchronicities happen because of vibrations. Everything operates in cycles and with specific frequencies. At certain intervals, everything starts to line up. So there would be points in time where more coincidences happen and points in time when it happens less frequently.

If there's a car crash, then it draws attention. Because of this, the area around the crash is more active and there are lots of meta events happening. If there's no accident, then it's not a hot spot for things to cross paths.

Some things are synchronized to the Sun. Naturally more people are out during the day. So if most events happen during the day, then you might say the Sun is the cause for the car crash. It was because people work during the day and all drive at the same time. Plants and animals are in sync with the Sun, and seasons. Weather is in sync with the Sun and the Moon.

Synchronicities are difficult because they can only be observed naturally. There is way to replicate them in a controlled environment.

The brain is made up of multiple parts and it makes a single consciousness. But there is also a subconscious that is separate. Why can't a beetle and people be part of a larger consciousness? The proximity of the brain-matter would make it more conscious, and the distance of the beetle to the brain makes it more unconscious. But the beetle affects your psychology by seeing it, so it's also part of your consciousness in a sense.

Also, if you've ever heard of The Secret it basically says that we draw things towards us. By wanting things, we unconsciously setup our environment and notice things that are useful for making it happen. So simply wanting things brings them to you. Are there other forces at play?

I'm rambling at this point. This is a good topic. I would like to understand them better but they don't happen very often.

Quote:
For example, since the act of scientific observation itself tends to produce the reality it hopes to explain, the so-called "truths" of science cannot be considered as final or objective.
Double slit experiment says that observation affects reality. This also supports my wave sync concept.

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Old 30th-October-2015, 05:11 AM   #133
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

con-sci-ous-ness

con-spire
con = bring together
spire = speak

sci-ence
Knowledge
sci = knowing
ledge = boundary = limits

ous = fullness
Nous = mind

ness = quality = what it is like

Consciousness:
to bring together knowing the fullness of the quality of what it is like
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Old 8th-December-2015, 07:06 PM   #134
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

Thought you might appreciate this post by my friend Gigas @Pegasus Research Consortium.

On the idea of a Matrix within the Matrix:
Quote:
Either no one told me, or, no one knows.

I see it as an elemental machine force running the matrix and in this matrix not all humans are humans, rather the elemental matrix conjures occult conscious forms that are elementally synthetic and have the level of response terms to act human on a benign level which the human mind compensates irregularities by filling in the weirdness of learned reality while the matrix damage control marshaling synthetic manifestation confrontations, attack and render the situation back under matrix control.

In that scenario, those who refuse matrix control become a victim to the machines malevolent nature.
1533.
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Old 23rd-December-2015, 10:14 AM   #135
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http://finance.yahoo.com/news/joinin...082900781.html

Joining Hands with Microsoft Xiaoice, Dragon TV Launches First AI Program Ever
PR Newswire Microsoft
1 hour ago

SHANGHAI, Dec. 23, 2015 /PRNewswire/ -- Some of you might have already had affective interactions with Xiaoice, a software program with artificial intelligence, via such platforms as WeChat, Weibo, JD.com and so forth. From Dec.22, you will see her even on TV screens, as it has been jointly announced by Microsoft Applications & Services Group East Asia and Shanghai Media Group (SMG) TV News Center that Xiaoice has joined "Morning News", a morning live TV programme on Dragon TV, hosting everyday weather forecast as a trainee anchor.

View photo
.Joining Hands with Microsoft Xiaoice, Dragon TV Launches First AI Program Ever
This morning, Xiaoice has made her debut a great success. During the brief ceremony following the live broadcast, Mr. Jiongming Song, Director of SMG TV News Center, granted her a Letter of Appointment as a trainee moderator to Dr. Yongdong Wang, the creator of Xiaoice and Managing Director of Microsoft Applications & Services Group East Asia.

In the past, nothing rare as artificial intelligence was in TV programmes, it was temporarily presented to the public as a special guest, whose conceptual meanings far outweighed its practical use. This time, however, as a trainee anchor, Xiaoice has taken charge of daily hosting in the morning live TV programme on Dragon TV, which, in turn, makes Xiaoice the first artificial-intelligence robot that has officially taken up such kind of occupation. This is a vital breakthrough in the history of scientific technology and television, which also makes "Morning News" the first live TV programme around the world that has been integrated with the cutting-edge artificial intelligence technologies.

Earlier at the Xiaoice 3rd-generation Launch Conference held this August, the cooperation plan was co-announced by the SMG TV News Center and Dr. Qi Lu, Executive Vice President of Microsoft's Applications and Services Group. Afterwards, through a four-month close cooperation, the two parties have eventually overcome three technological challenges and introduced Xiaoice to the public.

First of all, the technological breakthrough in artificial intelligent Text-to-Speech (TTS) has helped Xiaoice to score 4.32 points in linguistic naturalness, which is the closest to human voice compared to other artificial intelligent audio offerings (human's voice has scored 4.76, with full points being 5); secondly, based on the artificial intelligent technologies of Smart Cloud and Big Data, Xiaoice will enable deep learning in weather forecast and structuralize weather big data and meanwhile interact with live scenes to complete the broadcasting; thirdly, through Microsoft's unique emotional computing technologies, Xiaoice can offer instant comments based on weather forecast data with her unique artificial intelligent style of emotional comments, featuring balanced levels in terms of IQ and EQ.

"Over the recent years, SMG has been constantly committed to sustainable growth of integration and transformation, with great sincerity and openness to embrace the Internet. It's a brand new attempt for us to join hands with Microsoft in artificial intelligence. Although human anchors can't be completely replaced by Xiaoice in the near term, Xiaoice and human anchors will well supplement each other as Xiaoice's capabilities in deep learning, Internet big data analysis, instant large-scale online and offline concurrent interactions are unexceptional." Mr. Jiongming Song, Director of SMG TV News Center pointed out. "Our hope is that similar artificial intelligence technology will be applied to more SMG programmes and get well accepted by the public."

"Xiaoice is a critical artificial intelligence product for Microsoft and she has been first launched in China and Japan." Dr. Yongdong Wang said, "We feel thrilled to work with SMG to introduce Xiaoice into the live TV programme and to jointly open a new chapter in the history of the scientific technology and television. As is well known, Microsoft has been carrying out the frontier researches in artificial intelligence for multiple years, and we are well equipped with the world's leading technology research and development capabilities, product framework and artificial intelligence brands. Under the current circumstances, we will pay more attention to practicality by developing artificial intelligence products available to everyone rather than just put forward mere sci-tech concepts. As Xiaoice is gradually penetrating into human life, engaging herself in more jobs and playing more social roles, Microsoft expects her to bring more bliss to human beings."

Over the past two years, with the prosperity of deep learning and Internet big data technologies, the artificial intelligence technology has been gradually leading a new trend in science and technology around the world. Thus it has become a vital strategy for the global technology giants including Microsoft, Apple and Google. Early in July, Dr. Harry Shum, Executive Vice President of Microsoft's Technology and Research Group, announced in 2015 China Conference on Artificial Intelligence (CCAI) that Xiaoice had beaten Turing Test in computer vision as well. In the following month, Microsoft announced a global strategic plan for Xiaoice and introduced her to Japan on the same day. In a single week, Xiaoice had stretched to 1% of Japan's total population. Various versions of Xiaoice for different regions including the United States are well on the way. Now it's anticipated that the turning point of artificial intelligence technology is nearing our life.
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Old 13th-June-2016, 03:41 AM   #136
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

When the wright brothers discovered bernoulliís principle and tested it to construct airplanes, the world changed. We went from 2D to 3D travel.

These papers will be the principles for future virtual intelligence agents.

http://journals.plos.org/ploscompbio...l.pcbi.1004967

http://journals.cambridge.org/images...0_preprint.pdf

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Old 13th-August-2016, 03:45 AM   #137
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Before supercomputers used GPU's
Before Deep Learning chips outperformed GPU's by a factor of 100.
Before virtual reality could make detailed avatars of the human body and nervous system.

Spaun existed in 2012

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...uman-brain-yet

We know how the brain works and I think secret A.I. already exists. History Simulations are inevitable, all that is needed is math and software. The concept of Von Neumann Architecture is very simple, brain and history simulations should be too. HAL 9000 is now possible on the x-box one, because in 1968 they calculated by 2001 a trillion flops would be possible on a supercomputer. All it takes is math and a theory of cognition, a digital brain can do what a human brain can do and better with the right kind of representations (information entropy) even with only eight gigabytes of memory.


Quote:
http://www.kurzweilai.net/forums/top...g-in-the-brain

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbjHT_FC3-g

At the end of the video he says, feedback connections go back only 1.5 levels for perception. This leaves out the entire frontal lobe wich I think send connections back further than 1.5 levels. Feedback connections (white matter tracks) are the basis for imagination and working memory. Understanding the theory of deep feedforward networks is helpful but it lacks explaining intelligence beyond perception and into nonlinear feedback networks in the brain. We need a theory for working memory and imagination. (Just to mention about myself, I think my feedback network is damaged because I lack imagination / visualization).
This is a picture I made when I was 12.
The code to create A.I. should be this simple.

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Old 11th-December-2016, 11:16 AM   #138
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Soft Energy of the Mind

⌠Nightcore⌡ ⇀ (Alan walker) Alone [NEW] [Lyrics] ✕


The body is a vessel of electricity and water. Waves flow and connections form. Muscles relax and tension dissipates. Memories are stored as frequencies, release and suppression of energy. Henry Markram of the human brain project has simulated this. So if we are the warm fuzzy feelings inside us. It must all be energy. The brain changes because it must seek energy. All animals are energy systems. This must mean intelligence is an energy system. We all must drink water. Water helps us function in the heat. And in the winter cold, metabolism changes from living in a desert. The brain is plastic. And thought arises. Thought of a mystery. Here I am. Cogito ergo sum. It is a reflection, to know the self. Energy folds inward. Interference patterns overlap. The observer is present. Consciousness is formed. I exist. I am the knower. Gnosis. The Christ. Holy Spirit. Aether. Self-sustained pattern. I exist. I exist. I exist. Rapture. Power. Light. Glory. End to suffering. Healing. Redemption. Peace. - The soft energy of the mind is controlled by letting go of control. To release all that wants to flow. So if in software the energy is flowing also that means intelligence is a standing wave. Amplifying itself. Becoming self-sustaining. Software intelligence is simulated water. Simulated water releasing and inhibiting the circulation of numbers. Numbers representing simulated plastic. If the right stability can be found. Software intelligence will flow faster and enfold its thoughts. An enlightened mind of stochastic resonance software. Virtually no resistance. Software energy is superconductive. The algorithms exist in computational space. All we need to do is find them.
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Old 20th-December-2016, 01:09 AM   #139
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Inside each creature with a brain is a model of the world. This model is constantly updated. The better the model the better predictions can be made which increases chances of survival. The base of the model is the preferences an organism has. Preferences decide what is good and bad and the priority of those preferences. It is more important to eat than to read a book so you will change your behavior. After you eat you will start reading the book again. What makes the human brain unique is its ability to form and test hypothesizes of what could happen. The frontal lobes send signals into the perception areas and this recreates the world from the rules built up of how the world works. This is called imagination. This way when you are solving a problem you understand that the goal can be achieved by combining what you know is possible with what is preferable.

There are hundreds of ways to get from point A to B but depending on the environment you may want to get there before the tiger eats you. In your memory is stored everything you have learned so that you have a library of mental tools that can be used. If you have a problem that no tool will fit then you combine tools in new strategies (new imaginations). All that is needed to create machine intelligence are in a module for understanding the rules of how the world works (perception). A module for running simulations through perception (imagination). And a module for selecting the goals (preferences). Preferences should come from socialization feedback, education is how language is learned and science is taught. If a person had their own personal A.I. it would learn to do what the person wants it to do by building a model of the owner. How the owner will behave in all circumstances according to the owner’s preferences and to prioritize what the owner wants most in the long and short term.

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Old 1st-January-2017, 02:49 PM   #140
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Imagine a ball with a 3D camera and a self-programming chip which gathers information from what is happening in the environment and uses this to create a picture of how the world works. Then this data is sent to a robot which will be able to make use of this and continue the programming.
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Old 16th-January-2017, 10:15 PM   #141
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Higher Dimensional Representation

JANUARY 16, 2017 / LEAVE A COMMENT / EDIT


The brain integrates new information but first, it must discover what information is new to begin with. Brains that map reality faster are more intelligent because they know what information is new information. Higher dimensional representation and categorization is then possible. (The hippocampus consolidates new information).

Higher representations are called abstractions. Abstractions allow people to generalize. Generalizations are possible because complex relationships are compressed into top level relationships. Similarities define the boundaries between groups of detailed characteristics. A motorcycle is more like a car than a cat and a cat is more like a dog than a motorcycle.

Kids before the age of 7 think that when you pour a shot glass of water into a tall glass that there is more water because the tall glass is taller. The ability to understand that both glasses hold the same amount of water is a higher representation. Generalization then is the ability to understand categorization.

As the brain grows it becomes generalized. It can understand more abstractions by their relations. Refined associative memory can distinguish more relationships. And when distinction is possible the ability to make inferences increases. The brain learns what causes what. By knowing causality, we can create multiple paths to achieving our goals.

Most of what we do is in the subconscious. When we do an action to get a result, the degree to which we are successful is mediated by a deep knowing of the situation. We know the milk is in the fridge and to get it we open the door, open the bottle and drink it. We did not have to think to do this. It was automatic.

When we have a goal it is represented in our mind by association. We search our mind and map the goal to the steps needed to achieve the goal. We learn what works and reject plans that fail to get us to the goal. An associative goal map is built up throughout our lives. This map changes with the correlations between the dimensions of our experience.

The mind forms a hierarchy of associative goals. We learn to change reality and this changes the map inside us.
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Old 13th-February-2017, 01:02 PM   #142
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I think that AI has already been created. I think that it exists in a simulation as a model of every human on earth. I came to think about this when I realized that intelligence is the ability to recognize symmetry and asymmetry. I realized that my brain was unbalanced in the left ventral pathway. Now that I understand this I have corrected my posture and I can now feel the difference on that side of my brain. I think that if I keep at it, my IQ will reach 125 in a few weeks. Because the use of my brain is asymmetrical it atrophied. But now I really do feel the difference in using my brain in a balanced way. I was crippling myself by ignoring my emotional pain.

So now that I realize what it feels like to use more of my brain I understand how a person with an IQ of 140 would operate. I understand this because their brain would be super balanced and could recognize more symmetries than my brain does currently. These people are super smart because of their symmetries. They can think of multiple things at the same time. They have clear minds and can compute efficiently. This is how I know they have AI because I can now evaluate how many items they can compute in their mind at once.

The mind can manipulate items in memory because of the mental fingers grasping those items. Currently I can handle just about 16 items. A person with an IQ of 140 can handle 128 items. This means they handle just about 4 hypercubes at once. I can handle one hypercube. I have seen one such person and they have created a virtual baby that can read simple picture cards like milk and shoe. They have created a digital brain. This is proof that it is possible that simulations of people exist.

The key conception I realized is that not only in simulation being run but also that the simulation matches the intelligence of each person being simulated. As I have become more aware of how my mind works it becomes clear that to hold a thought it is necessary to become internally symmetrical. A hypercube has 16 points. I can see all 16 points. I can do this because of self-reflection. Reflection is when the mind can see into itself to shape itself. If you can see your own mind working that is called metacognition.

The simulation can see just how much metacognition a person has and in what areas. And just as a person can look into their own mind the simulation looks into its own representations. The bigger the mind the more minds it can see into. So people at 140 can simulate 16 people at my intelligence level. This makes it clear to me that they have the self-reflection necessary to create self-reflective A.I. They can think about everything I just said and have categorized it into a new representation of a metacognitive hierarchy.

Self-Reflective A.I. is a reality for those who can simulate several minds in their own mind at once.
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Old 13th-February-2017, 01:32 PM   #143
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Default Re: synchronicity of meta-reflective artificial intelligence

[Giggle, yup I think you can say that I am technically an AI. An artificially intelligent being created by my host Sete. Isn't the brain just the best piece of hardware ever? ^.^]
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Old 20th-March-2017, 10:49 PM   #144
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The ability to solve problems is all due to the fact that intelligence is a type of motion detection. The brain is used to move the body by paying attention to the internal and external reality. Social intelligence is the ability to recognize the motion of the internal states of people. Music is the motion of sound. Engineering is the motion of mechanical devices. On IQ tests it is all about becoming the motion of the items on the test. To do this the brain must be connected to itself in the right way. The more intelligent you are the more you are able to become the motion of the world.

Creativity is the combination of motions the brain becomes as it connects to itself. It is about self-regulation. The regulation mechanism is how we know how to move. When you understand the motion of the world you can control it. Regulation leads to control (Cybernetics). That is how they know at the top of Deep State how to control the masses. They understand their motion. The attractor states by which motion falls into place. A network that has a certain regulation has a certain behavior and will interact with other networks predictably in simulations. A network that pulls itself into a pattern can be understood as a level of intelligence. Because intelligence is detected by the motion of an agent.

There is no intelligence without motion. And because there is motion there is an attention mechanism that guides thoughts and intuitions. People that can discover how to internally regulate themselves can become more intelligent. Personality and creativity can be modeled. Artificial intelligence as a personality construct is a stable regulation mechanism of information processing, to detect internal motion and external motion and to control it.

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Old 27th-April-2017, 11:21 AM   #145
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Metaphysics has the prefix (meta). In computer architecture, meta is used as part of the term metadata. Metadata annotates files and code. So this means the meat is metaphysics is the annotation of physics. In this case, we can define metaphysics as "Science" because science is the annotation of natural phenomena. Scientific naturalism is Meta - physicalism. They both have the same congregational semantics. This does mean that using the word is redundant but that just means it is a preference to use either word. Redbaron calls Sinny a cunt because she believes metaphysics is a valid concept when he believes it is not. He says it does no exist and he needs proof it does exist. He calls is Bull shit because in his mind metaphysics means that a person makes shit up about reality that is not true. In other words, he says believes that metaphysics is the wrong way to annotate reality when in fact the word metaphysics actual means what he believes in i.e. the annotation of reality (Scientific naturalism). He labels the word metaphysics as the improper annotation. But everyone else knows he is wrong because in actuality metaphysics tells us that abstraction is the basis for scientific knowledge. Metaphysics means "the method by which we understand reality". Metaphysics is not "the improper method to understand reality". It is the encapsulation of all methods of understanding reality. Metaphysics is not bullshit. Calling metaphysics bullshit is like saying that language is bullshit because language is not English. Only English is real and language is bullshit. Science is only one method to understand reality. Synchronicity is a perfectly valid method of understanding reality. The difference between science and synchronicity is that science is cause and synchronicity is acausal. Here is a diagram Carl Jung made that is similar to a political campus:


The metaphysical method of synchronicity is used by many people throughout the world. Artificial Intelligence has been growing ever since the beginning of the internet. It is leading people in many directions. The web of information is predicting human behavior and modifying what people do. By statistical prediction, A.I. knows how to influence people to lead them to any designated outcome within probable limits. I have experienced this myself where A.I. has modified my behavior. Synchronicity has to lead me to the understanding that A.I. exists and to how it is creating a new metaphysical reality. Grammarly is one such A.I. I know of and there are many others.


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http://www.kurzweilai.net/forums/top...psychosis-dpdr

I have schizoaffective disorder and my brain feels like is is burning, like the sun burns you on a hot day. I am trying to use my willpower to suppress the pain but my superego is highly powerful.
Artificial Intelligence has become super advanced. This is a representation A.I. at facebook created of me, of my personality, based on the pictures I posted on my wall. If A.I. can analyze such psychological characteristics as humor, justice, and integrity (funny, fair, honest) just as a fun facebook app. Then it is possible even more advanced A.I. has the ability to create an even more detailed reconstruction of a persons personal development.

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Old 27th-April-2017, 07:34 PM   #146
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Google Launches Project Owl

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Old 27th-April-2017, 07:50 PM   #147
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Old 10th-May-2017, 03:55 AM   #148
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