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Old 10th-January-2017, 12:24 AM   #1
nanook
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Default How stupid can you be?

There are currently two other threads about the problem of being smart about life, but i like to look at things from a typological perspective, because getting even smarter about life is always a process that is specific to our type. We can't be like other people.

If thinking is your dominant function, then your life should be dominated by good judgement. But it is introverted judgement after all, so the judgement is not universally good, it's only good according to a certain subjektive standard and presumable bad according to a contrary standard, such as that of ESTJ - "whatever works".

So where is the boundary of your good judgement, when are your tactics becoming futile and what happens then? Do you become irrational (as in Si or Ne) or feeling?

I am so stupid about my life, that i often took it as a proof that i can not be intp. My prejudice was that INTP are machiavellian. That they do whatever it takes. That they would not live in slavery like i do.

When i say machiavellian i am really thinking about anyone who makes money out of money. Wallstreet people.

I can't figure out if the machiavellian principle is introverted or extroverted. It is antisocial which seems introverted, but it is effective, practical, well adapted, which seems extroverted. And i have little doubt that INTJ beat INTP in that discipline.

You know how political parties just wont change their attitudes, even if it does not meet the challenges of the presence or future? Because its about who they are, not about what works?

I mean it's in the name: "conservative". LOL. In the age of technological singularity, they choose to be conservative. Like they WANT to be wrong. Now that is stupid.

But similarly i have been stupidly acting under a subjective premise and failed to acknowledge that its not appropriate for years. I have assumed that i could attain more social freedom one day and should invest all of my mental focus into this possibility of psychological change.

Like conservatives invest in economic growth for the sake of creating more employment, when in reality the machines are coming to take over all jobs and resources require economy to be more efficient, not greater.

Likewise in my reality dementia and younger generations are coming on, making it impossible for me to catch up and find a place in their world. I should have seen that coming. I was never going to make it to social freedom, in a world where shaming the oddball is the most basic principle of hierarchy and will never be given up.

I should have invested all my brainpower, prior to becoming demented, in learning how to earn money on a laptop and living in a truck.

Like conservatives should have abandoned their parents live stock farms while they had the nerves to learn how to do vertical farming & green houses.

Actually i had a hunch about all it all going down like this, but disregarded it, because i couldn't believe in succeeding with the whole digital nomad thing. Too much of it seemed out of my control and possibly out of my IQ league.

Meanwhile i had the illusion, that psychology could be entirely within my control. If only i were keen enough to come up with the right hypothesis, or so i thought in the age of psychoanalysis and then later in the age of spirituality i thought if only i were brave enough to face annihilation of ego, i would attain integration, wholeness, awakening and most likely some version of social freedom along with it. But that was an illusion. Control, bravery, overcoming anxiety, its all illusion. Development of that kind happens like puberty. In its own time.

So that was my subjective condition: I really wanted to make it, but it had to be my way.

Like the conservatives want to stay in charge of the world.
But it has to be in the good old tradition of human and animal exploitation.
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Old 10th-January-2017, 03:18 AM   #2
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Default Re: How stupid can you be?

I know this is probably not going to sound like something that is up my alley, but I can actually relate to what you are saying.

I started going to day treatment (partial hospitalization) for depression recently (depression being the only symptoms I was dealing with at the time, but it was quite severe). I had low expectations. In some ways, those expectations were met and in some ways I get a better result. The things that help are the education (for example: on the brain) and psychological tools to use to get healthier mentally by doing some very fundamental things. Unfortunately, I remain just as much of a loner as I was in HS. I mean, sure I feel more comfortable talking with people than I did in HS, but that does not change the fact that I feel like I just don't belong/people can't relate to me. *shrug*
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Old 10th-January-2017, 03:27 AM   #3
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Old 10th-January-2017, 08:14 PM   #4
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Default Re: How stupid can you be?

So much to say here...

The typology bit's quite related to this, yes. It's not so much an excuse as an explanation for why different people struggle with different things. For those of us who are high Pe+Ji, the tendency in life is always to reconsider and re-evaluate. The Pe function (no matter what one's hierarchy is) is meant to present to the psyche new information via data absorption and seeking. And the Ji function (regardless of hierarchy) is meant to internally re-question the alignment of ideas to one's principle-framework.

What that means is that Pe-leads and Ji-leads, unless developed, are in this ambiguous or ambivalent state of flux. Reality is always "being discovered" in present tense and "being understood", synthesized and often from very first assumptions. To the point where the questions may seem stupid indeed.

When the person or situation at hand presents us with an immediate practical scenario, it can seem absurd to meet the situation with "What is school anyway?" or "Why do we even have 8 hr work days?" ....then go on a wikipedia binge to try to figure it out, instead of doing that boring paper or job.

The Pi+Je functions do the opposite. Pi, not being an external perception function, already has a perception in mind that is not in a dynamic/real-time transformation process. This itself greatly helps Je execute. If your map is constantly shifting terrain, it's hard to navigate or know where to go.
Pi: "Here's how the world's condition is"
Je: "And here's how you execute within it"

is entirely contrary to:

Pe: "Oh, I didn't know that. This changes everything!"
Ji: "I have to readjust my position back into perfection."
These two are a natural duality in human nature. Both in each one of us, but also on a macro scale between individuals who embody one of these more extremely. And each can certainly find reasons to consider the other stupid. Either for not thinking deeply enough about life/their-choices/their-entire-life-direction/purpose, or for not being able to have even very simple logistical talents and manage a basic job or apartment. c_c

Quote:
But similarly i have been stupidly acting under a subjective premise and failed to acknowledge that its not appropriate for years. I have assumed that i could attain more social freedom one day and should invest all of my mental focus into this possibility of psychological change.
Yikes. You've had a lot of hard disenchantments lately...
I think perhaps one of the keys to wisdom is to be utterly disenchanted but not bitter and disheartened? Tho it's easier said than done.

It hardly ever happens, but when it does you see people who aren't irrationally chasing idealistic fantasies; who are grounded and yet still aspire for the same underlying ideas, in the small things.

Transformation ceases to be the magical and rapturous experience it was envisioned as being, but it happens in them nonetheless through temperance, patience and balance--- rather than extremes or diehard ambitions, which are themselves (and their urgencies) parts of the problems/damages.

Icarus



Those who seek transformation with such fervor. Those who seek transcendence with diehard passion are those who need it most; for their spirit's sake. But they're also the most at risk of burning out in flames and coming down crashing. It's at once a desperate cry for deliverance, and a foolish, rash arrogance that leads one to believe all is possible if I just soar high enough. I may not be talking about you specifically anymore, but of the tendency in general.

But one must learn to walk before they can run or fly. Translating this into practical language, things like making friends, having meaningful family connections, being able to communicate with others. Those are the "walking" before the running. Those things (socializing) which often are belittled by the more spiritual people... --via chastisement of it as meniality-- are depreciated as a type of psychological concealment of their own frailties and inadequacies.

He who wishes to be enlightened at heart and mind can't possibly be someone who can't operate with basic emotional dynamics. And it's a very common but skewed rationalization to think that one has instead developed a far more sophisticated heart-dynamic that naturally alienates them from other people, thus disallowing connection. And that it's not due to their own shortcomings, but to those of others for failing to understand them and the concepts they hold.

In this sense --for the recluse-- growth really should take the form of an admission that the outer world isn't necessarily more false than their internal direction. But that other humans pay witness to the entirety of what it means to be human, to feel, to breath, to exist, to be happy -- and also what it means to have a heart. Their life flow has correctness in it. That bimbo blonde that's just obnoxiously happy and flirty is... at least able to experience joys that we might not be experiencing; however you dislike her, something she is doing is more right than what we are doing. So the audacity of believing that 99% of people are doing life wrong is what has to shift in these cases. Once again... not speaking of you directly, but of many friends and acquaintances I've seen chase the spiritual path in the past..

When the spiritualist has learned to integrate the mundane into their being, that's when they'll finally reach the peace they desire by flying through the air. To put it more practically, the heart (which is at the root of all this) heals through environment, to a great degree. Developing a sacred routine of going on forest walks every morning can do wonders for anxiety. Getting a job as a labor worker, farmer, gardener, etc. Caring for friends and family, and not making connection about an absolute intimacy/kinship (i.e. a symptom of desperate loneliness) are signs that their psychology is growing into health.


disclaimer: i don't always successfully apply much this in my own life. c_c
i'm a fumbling fool myself.
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Old 11th-January-2017, 12:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: How stupid can you be?

Love Auburn's post. +10, and relate 1000x to the stupidity of PeJi's evershifting sands (like having the rug pulled out from under your feet OVER AND OVER AGAIN), and the importance of mastering the mundane. Totally refusing to even understand it represents a desire to cut off those portions of yourself, and will always lead to ruin imo. For NTP, this would be Si+Fe. Everything you see around you has truth of some sort within it. You must accept and integrate it in order to be whole.
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Old 11th-January-2017, 12:57 AM   #6
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Default Re: How stupid can you be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nanook View Post
I can't figure out if the machiavellian principle is introverted or extroverted. It is antisocial which seems introverted, but it is effective, practical, well adapted, which seems extroverted. And i have little doubt that INTJ beat INTP in that discipline.
When I first came across typology in 2009 I joined INTJ forum because I thought I was INTJ. I really like science so I must be INTJ. But it turns out that most people on INTJ form and INFJ form were really not like me. People on INTP form were more like me. I did not understand typology at all. I wanted to figure it out so I asked people. Adymus said I was ENFJ and later pod'lair said INFJ. Micheal Pierce thinks I am ENFP, he thinks of himself as INFJ.

The main difficulty I have is that I do have a singular focus (Artificial Intelligence). This is the reason I got depressed when I graduated high school. I did not know what to do and the classes I did take for one semester were very difficult for me. I had no social intelligence at all and this is why I quite. If Fe is supposed to be the ability to execute in the social domain then I do not have it.

I think that I have less of a barrier between my two main functions and the lower two functions. That is why it seems that I am so friendly. The reverse of INTJ is ISFP. My sister is ESFP. I am very much like her. But I am not like that all the time. I understand how things are and what needs to be done, I just have problems with interacting with other people. I reverted to being like an ISFP because of my depression.

I can't create A.I. by myself. This makes me sad yet I still try to figure it out all the time. I go about it in a random way, though. I only read what is relevant to me. I am not interested in information that I can't use or think about. This narrow focus messes me up. I know I need to learn programming to make A.I. but I don't care about what programming is. I find it difficult to motivate myself on the subject. I want to do a specific thing and I can't do it so I get sad and give up.

I do know more about computers than I did before. But it is not complete. I know more about typology than before but it is incomplete. I ask specific questions and don't get good answers so I try my own theories. They are not always correct and they do not come from interacting with people. I know very few people. The people I do know I know what they are like better than people I don't know.

So I don't like just absorbing information, I need specific information. This is detrimental when I can't find it. This has been my problem with typology and A.I. - It has caused my very much anxiety. Anxiety happens when you have a problem too hard for you to solve. I could not let go of my main focus. I started acting like and ISFP. This made understanding typology more difficult. I had problems dealing with people.

Recently I discovered that the frontal lobes are used for impulse control. I have been practicing controlling my impulses. This gave me more clarity. I do not force myself to do things my mind can't do. And I am more aware of what I am doing when I do it. I now understand why I had my neurosis. I am much better now that I understand it.

@nanook

We all have compulsions that arise when we cannot do what is natural to us. I think that your wanting to explore ego death might be an expression of this? I think Jung never thought the ego could go away. The conscious and the subconscious have to become one thing. Dispassion is thought as ego death in eastern though is not integrating emotions, most times it is suppressing them so they cannot become part of who you are. It is hard for me to deal integrate my emotions because I have no one to express them to. I don't have people around me I can trust with them. They rarely come to the surface. Everything needs to come to the surface to become integrated.
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Old 11th-January-2017, 11:52 AM   #7
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Default Re: How stupid can you be?

Auburn, your post makes good sense, i guess. I have nothing to add.

Except that spiritual people really tend to understand very much that spirituality is all about becoming intimate with all aspects of ordinary life

I mean, i know that many spiritual people are just silly and misunderstand teachings, but it can't be blamed on the teaching - every Satsang teacher i know of teaches not apathy but acceptance of what is.

And in that spirituality (horizontal awakening) can be distinct from vertical development/cognitive maturation (towards various integral stages). When it comes to growing, there are phases of transcendence (where identification with some issues is left behind) and phases of integration (wherein the same issues are picked up again, but this time as objects, not as identified subject). So episodes of escapism are rather normal and unavoidable but could me played more or less radical.

Ak, your obsession with AI is about as far removed from lucidity about your life as an attempt to watch and record all episodes of 10 science fiction shows or to download and test and archive all freeware on the internet (I used to do these things for a few years). It's childs play. It's escapism, apathy, schizoid PD. Avoidance of lucid responsibility for some of your core needs. Doesn't mean you don't care about your needs. Perhaps you care too much to endure the state of insecurity implied by them. The constant disappointment of not having them met. Selective deprecation of impossible needs might be an expression of Fi as much as of the absence of Fi - i really don't know. If you choose to indulge into a need for Information about AI, a need to watch all sci-fi shows, a need to download all freeware, etc, you indulge into a need that can be met. Even if you can't meet it completely, you can never get all info, all shows, all software, but you can get some of it all of the time. So it's an addiction, meant to compensate for how real core needs are not met. In a broader sense it is just another version of Internet addiction, no different from my own. Although, since my spiritual initiation, i use the internet to learn about real life issues, i essentially just compensate for unmet real life needs with information related to their hypothetical fulfillment.
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Old 11th-January-2017, 12:29 PM   #8
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Default Re: How stupid can you be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nanook View Post
I was never going to make it to social freedom, in a world where shaming the oddball is the most basic principle of hierarchy and will never be given up.
it is up to you whether you feel ashamed for being an oddball. would you prefer to be "normal" like those who try to shame you?

hierarchy is a squalid type of game that some humans try to play and will vanish if you refuse to play
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Old 11th-January-2017, 06:29 PM   #9
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@nanook - Yes... I think I know that (sterile transhumanist) mindset well. What I seem to be up against now, in my own personal journey, is the task of practically and meaningfully connecting with the outer world in precisely those simplistic ways which I previously disliked.

And also to take visions and transform them into real-world manifestations. To tangle with bureaucracy, politics, social qualms and outright labor -- in order to create a place for myself and for those who need one too. I've become very interested in sustainable, ideal architectures/living-spaces, education, culture formation, etc.

I'm confident technology will take us into the future within my lifetime, but I think I've figured out that my place among this future will not be one of an electrical engineer or geneticist, but of a professor, social engineer and a reminding voice for the more psychological necessities of humanity within this new and evolving world.

Speaking of sci-fi, my approximation is something like the people of Ba'ku from Star Trek Insurrection:



They have warp drive capability, and are highly advanced, but they choose to live in a very earthy way, with gardening, creating artwork, and creating beauty. It's my hope that as humanity goes into the future, it also looks further into the past. And draws from both great sources of wisdom.

Quote:
Except that spiritual people really tend to understand very much that spirituality is all about becoming intimate with all aspects of ordinary life
Ah, right. I guess I've seen a few different types that don't do this. Like for example certain buddhist philosophies teach a very abstract sort of connection with one's heart, while ultimately teaching non-involvement and detachment in a practical sense.

But I think you know more than I do about the various spiritual teachings out there, and I could have interpreted them wrong.
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