INTP Forum  

Go Back   INTP Forum > Within > Philosophy > Philosophy Archive

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 28th-April-2017, 12:23 PM   #51
Artsu Tharaz
Resident Resident
 
Artsu Tharaz's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,473
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sushi View Post
4 types of infinity in universe

space could be infinite
time could be infinite
energy could be infinite
distance could be infinite (from one end of universe to the other)
What's the difference between space being infinite and distance being infinite?

I believe that things are essentially infinite, in the sense that we can never see everything, but that as things get infinitely distant (in whatever sense of the word) from us, they become infinitely unimportant. So the finiteness we experience is basically all that there will ever be, it will always seem like a unity.

There's something strange about the concept of infinity... like whether it does have meaning or not, and whether uncountable infinity makes sense (I think uncountable infinity means something likeee there is no process that can exist that would eventually get to any given element of a series, but I am a bit skeptical of that notion because it seems that once an element is identified, it can be included in the series :/). So what's the difference between if our experience is finite or infinite, at any given moment? What does it all meeeeaaannnn!!
Artsu Tharaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th-April-2017, 12:30 PM   #52
AndyC
Hm?
 
AndyC's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 306
linuxsafari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Space is the general area governed by the universe which isn't infinite, that's my general confusion.
If you read my approach to uncountable infinity, I got rid of it because again I was wrong.
__________________
Trust in the development of the psyche: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=568502#post568502
AndyC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th-April-2017, 08:56 PM   #53
ChainsofAssery
Redshirt
 

Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 23
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

This is old af, but perhaps everything is infinite, but our perception perceive things as finite. Example, I draw a line of a piece of paper. I can then divide that line by one half. And then divide that by one have, then divide that by one half, and so on and so forth. Technically, in a theoretical world, I would be able to continue dividing the line an unlimited amount of time (assuming my reasoning is correct). So, inside a seemingly finite line lays infinity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Introvert View Post


If the universe is infinite, then there is no point in the universe to which we can point. Therefore, there is no universe.
I don't think that your conclusion follows from your premise. Pi is infinite, yet we can point to the 4 that follows from 3.14. Does pi actually exist outside of our perception? I don't think we can assert it does, but that's not because its infinite, but rather because we cannot see the world outside of our perspective.
ChainsofAssery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th-April-2017, 09:26 PM   #54
Sandglass
Pixelated
 
Sandglass's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 26
linuxsafari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainsofAssery View Post
This is old af, but perhaps everything is infinite, but our perception perceive things as finite. Example, I draw a line of a piece of paper. I can then divide that line by one half. And then divide that by one have, then divide that by one half, and so on and so forth. Technically, in a theoretical world, I would be able to continue dividing the line an unlimited amount of time (assuming my reasoning is correct). So, inside a seemingly finite line lays infinity.
I believe that is incorrect. At some point the line would be small enough to where quantum mechanics would become meaningful and a real line would have to be composed of discrete particles. Eventually, the line cannot be broken down more.

If the line is imaginary and is not composed of particles you may be correct but that seems different than what you were saying.
Sandglass is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 28th-April-2017, 11:30 PM   #55
ChainsofAssery
Redshirt
 

Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 23
macossafari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandglass View Post
I believe that is incorrect. At some point the line would be small enough to where quantum mechanics would become meaningful and a real line would have to be composed of discrete particles. Eventually, the line cannot be broken down more.

If the line is imaginary and is not composed of particles you may be correct but that seems different than what you were saying.
Alright, interesting. My ex was wrong. What about space? Like if we had the ability to look at things at a molecular level could we just keep zooming in smaller and smaller, or would there be a point where there is nothing to zoom into?
ChainsofAssery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th-April-2017, 12:07 AM   #56
JR_IsP
Overthinker
 
JR_IsP's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Venezuela, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 110
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Infinity is not a number!!!!

You can't say something is infinite because "it never ends"!!!!!!!!!!

Infinity is a group of things, such as seconds (in the case of time), or light-years (space)... or whatever.

*physics triggered*

Now, space and time can't be infinite. Time can't be infinite because light has "only" traveled across the universe to our little pale blue dot for over 13 billion years. If time were infinite, we would see light comings from everywhere from a never ending past.

And that's no hypothesis, we have proven that light has only traveled for over 13 billion years (even when we now thought that there was a pre-light era of the universe, when subatomic particles weren't formed enough to generate electromagnetic radiation, aka, light)
__________________
“My passion is for scientific truth. I don’t much care about good and evil. I care about what’s true.” Richard Dawkins
JR_IsP is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 29th-April-2017, 12:24 AM   #57
JR_IsP
Overthinker
 
JR_IsP's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Venezuela, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 110
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChainsofAssery View Post
Alright, interesting. My ex was wrong. What about space? Like if we had the ability to look at things at a molecular level could we just keep zooming in smaller and smaller, or would there be a point where there is nothing to zoom into?
Maybe, if string theory is right, the smallest zoom you can achieve would be one within branes and strings interacting with each other. But sadly, we can't go that deep :c.

We can only see things in visible light bigger than the visible light frequency (or wavelength, if you like).

Think of the light as a wave, such as this one.



If something is in the empty space in between the waves, it wouldn't interact with the waves, right? And means: for the wave, it doesn't exist. In other words, it would be invisible.

For visible light, we can only see things bigger than 390 - 700 nm, like viruses, or the DNA helix.

Now, there are other kinds of electromagnetic radiation with a smaller wavelength. For example, gamma radiation. It has a wavelength of 1 pm (390 nm is 390000 pm), and because atoms have sizes in pm (helium atom, for example, has a diameter of 62 pm), we could use gamma ray microscopes to see subatomic particles.

But the problem of gamma rays is its power. Gamma rays are so powerful that it would be dangerous to work with them, so, we won't have ultra-precise microscopes that let us discover is space is truly infinite. (If you want you can subdivide space forever, but that wouldn't mean anything anyway)
__________________
“My passion is for scientific truth. I don’t much care about good and evil. I care about what’s true.” Richard Dawkins
JR_IsP is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-May-2017, 04:19 AM   #58
sushi
Member
 
sushi's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 226
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz View Post
What's the difference between space being infinite and distance being infinite?

I believe that things are essentially infinite, in the sense that we can never see everything, but that as things get infinitely distant (in whatever sense of the word) from us, they become infinitely unimportant. So the finiteness we experience is basically all that there will ever be, it will always seem like a unity.

There's something strange about the concept of infinity... like whether it does have meaning or not, and whether uncountable infinity makes sense (I think uncountable infinity means something likeee there is no process that can exist that would eventually get to any given element of a series, but I am a bit skeptical of that notion because it seems that once an element is identified, it can be included in the series :/). So what's the difference between if our experience is finite or infinite, at any given moment? What does it all meeeeaaannnn!!
distance is only distance between two points in a line.

space is more abstract, it has no boundaries, it is not linear.

i really don't know.
__________________
Its not I am lazy, its just I don't like work with deadlines.
sushi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-May-2017, 07:32 AM   #59
AndyC
Hm?
 
AndyC's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 306
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

http://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/gradation.shtml
__________________
Trust in the development of the psyche: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=568502#post568502
AndyC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-May-2017, 08:28 AM   #60
Artsu Tharaz
Resident Resident
 
Artsu Tharaz's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,473
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sushi
space is more abstract, it has no boundaries
Err... I guess it could be like... infinite dimensional space?

Sort of relevant but I have this conception of a dimension that goes straight through a thing's center, like if you picture the centre of a sphere, this dimension lies completely in the centre but goes infinitely more inwards. Unsure how to make sense of it beyond this, but it's a significant perception.
Artsu Tharaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-May-2017, 08:32 AM   #61
Artsu Tharaz
Resident Resident
 
Artsu Tharaz's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,473
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
Quote:
3. For there to be degrees of being at all, there must be something which has being in the highest degree.

...oh yeah. I missed that bit.

So, whilst by my measuring, we are heading towards higher states of being, there already exists a highest state of being.

So why is anything???

(the answer is: anything because everything and anything more than nothing)
Artsu Tharaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-May-2017, 09:08 AM   #62
AndyC
Hm?
 
AndyC's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 306
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

4d= infinite 3dimensional hyperplanes coexisting
3d= infinite 2dimensional hyperplanes coexisting
2d= infinite 1dimensional hyperplanes coexisting
1d= infinite 0dimensional hyperplanes coexisting
0d= don't really know myself, maybe I'll think of something

I don't really know what I'm talking about, it's reminiscent of some theory I came up with a few years ago.
__________________
Trust in the development of the psyche: http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?p=568502#post568502
AndyC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-May-2017, 09:15 AM   #63
Artsu Tharaz
Resident Resident
 
Artsu Tharaz's Avatar
 

Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,473
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyC View Post
4d= infinite 3dimensional hyperplanes coexisting
3d= infinite 2dimensional hyperplanes coexisting
2d= infinite 1dimensional hyperplanes coexisting
1d= infinite 0dimensional hyperplanes coexisting
0d= don't really know myself, maybe I'll think of something

I don't really know what I'm talking about, it's reminiscent of some theory I came up with a few years ago.
What was the point of this post?

Get it, get it? 0d, point?

Ahhhh I'm hilarious.
Artsu Tharaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-May-2017, 11:58 AM   #64
Rixus
I introverted think. Therefore, I am.
 
Rixus's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: United Kingdon
Posts: 1,143
windows_98_nt_2000safari
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

To understand where this limit lies, we must first understand the limits of the human mind. Our minds were designed to handle tactile form - to exist within a universe governed by the observable laws of physics. Sensory dominant minds can see, accept and understand what is right in front of them. Intuitive minds can see the more abstract concepts around them, but still require that those concepts, however abstract, exist within a physical universe.

What happens, then, when our minds are confronted with that which has no reality to exist within - absolute nothing. We inevitably imagine empty space - at best a vacuum between two somethings. But that is still something. That gap is not nothing - it is a space between two points. How, then, can we perceive nothing? How can we visualise something which does not exist? We can't. We have to understand it without visualisation. But I will try to explain in terms we can all visualise.

When we learned of the expansion of the universe in elementary/primary school, we inevitably pictured matter expanding into empty space. Things moving further away from each other and an apparently infinite empty space beyond that. But then we learn that this is not the case. The space time continuum itself is expanding along with matter - but we need to visualise it expanding into something. At some point, however far away, there must be an edge to the universe. The edge of the sphere of all that is.

Inside this sphere, not only does all matter exist but all laws of physics exist. Beyond this, there is nothing. Not because it is empty space or because it is a void, but because beyond this, there is no physics. There is no distance, no time, no mass. These things that our minds can process exist only within our little 93bn light year bubble. Outside of that is the nothingness that our minds cannot visualise because there is nothing our minds could process as anything to visualise beyond that limit. And so, the universe still continues into infinity even if it has a limit because it continues as far as there is anything to continue into.

If you cannot see this, try thinking about time. We can agree that time is a dimension that is expanding much as space expands, and that expansion of time is what our minds see as it's passage. Therefore, when we look forward in time we can see possibilities of it's existence but can reasonably well understand that it does not yet exist because it has not happened yet. So in essence, we are caught in the wake of the expansion of time and held at the edge of it's infinity. Likewise, if the universe is expanding into nothing it is simply expanding into what space has yet to exist. It expands into nothingness.

But what would you see if you were to travel all that distance to the edge of the universe? What would you see beyond that precipice? We cannot see forward in time because we haven't any means with which to peer through this dimension and traverse it in anything other than a truly linear fashion. we see only the presence - the point at which we now exist. But distance is another matter - if we look forward into nothing, what would we see? What would that barrier at the edge of the bubble look like? There would be nothing for our eyes to see, so would we simply look at it and see absolute darkness, no different to the void that we can see when we look at space because our minds and our eyes could not process it any differently?

What would happen if you tried to cross it? I can think of a few possibilities, but my imagination says that if you tried to pass that barrier, nothing would be there and you would simply cease to exist and become nothing with it.

The limit of infinity is that it continues until there is nothing to continue into - it is eternal because beyond it there is nothing.
__________________
Post a post post posting of this post.
Rixus is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd-May-2017, 05:41 PM   #65
JR_IsP
Overthinker
 
JR_IsP's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Venezuela, Earth, Milky Way Galaxy
Posts: 110
linuxubuntufirefox
Default Re: The Limits of Infinity (Irony Recognized)

Too much ambiguities and subjectivity here for me D:

Infinity is beyond our mind. Infinity is beyond the universe. Only a huge wasteland of infinity lies beyond the infinite horizon.
__________________
“My passion is for scientific truth. I don’t much care about good and evil. I care about what’s true.” Richard Dawkins
JR_IsP is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Irony of Infinity.. 7even Philosophy Archive 7 25th-March-2013 12:34 AM
Am I the only person who finds irony in this? Jean Paul Psychology & Neuroscience Archive 5 14th-March-2011 10:17 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:01 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Template-Modifications by TMS

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise v2.7.1 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
no new posts