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Old 25th-July-2017, 01:52 PM   #101
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It's complete bullshit that INTPs don't care about people.

It's just that socially maladjusted introverts sometimes like to invent such narratives as a way of coping.

It's sometimes painful to admit that one cares, and passionately at that, when the feeling is not reciprocated. Thus one gets in the habit of saying "I'm this cool mofo who doesn't care". That is a maladaption.

I find myself being passionately interested in everyone I meet. But perhaps novelty – at least when it comes to the opposite sex – is a necessary element in this whole thing.
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Old 25th-July-2017, 03:27 PM   #102
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How do you define "care about"?

I think this is what confounds me but I can kinda sense with my husband. And I always wanted him to care more about a lot of things... Like I do. I always felt some sort of disconnect between us and sense it between him and our son. But maybe I'm just overly sensitive.

Could some of you elaborate on this? I don't understand how humans can not care about other humans. I'm not trying to make you feel bad or wrong I just really don't understand. Is it because people annoy you? Did you start off liking people? Do you care more for relatives (parents, siblings) inherently or because you know you should? Do you value human life? Do you ever feel "connected" with another human? -- Under what circumstances?

My husband has said, "I don't like people" but he's often very thoughtful of others and kind to people.
INTP in itself would care and connect with people, it's those that have been hurt, felt alienated etc that become detached and disconnected easily. Usually. INTPs might be more prone to those experiences as they tend to be a bit different, they are a bit special, you know (:> Sometimes it's just the lack of finding like minded people and feeling different, frustrated for large parts of their youth and maybe grown up lives.

I'm not INTP, but I don't tend to get attached to people or connect. It's rare that I do, and I tend to seek isolation and withdraw from people. In my case it's a result of a bad childhood, teenage years and I guess large part of my adult life has been lacking in some areas as well. In some ways I've given up on people and don't tend to seek or attempt connection. I'm also less able to than the average person. I'm still open to being able to meet people that I do connect with, but on a day to day basis I'm fairly detached, and I usually keep people at a distance. The responsibility and reciprocation a lot of people want and need is also something that drains me and I don't have the energy for it. So in a way, I'm saving them from becoming disappointed in me as well.

I don't hate people per se, I just rather prefer my own company. As I grew older, interacting with people became something more of going through the motions, than feeling valuable or meaningful.

For some, they don't experience connecting easily. For others, the experience might be accompanied by painful feelings (for instance loneliness and alienation), so they tend to avoid and bury those feelings all together.

Dislike of people doesn't necessarily translate to the dislike of the individual. It's much easier to see and understand why an individual is lacking- than to apply sympathetic general rules to people in plural. People in general is something more of a distant thing you have less sympathy for, compared to the individual in the immediate presence. The more detached from other people, the stronger the distant image of the group people becomes, the more tendency to misanthropy.

or so

Oh, and I guess in many cases there tends to be a strong self critical perception accompanied as well. If you realize your own major flaws, you might be more prone to forgive those of others. Unless it just turns outward into hate and bitterness and you swear and hate at everything.
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Old 25th-July-2017, 04:31 PM   #103
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And, does this not seem a little uncool to y'all?

1) INTPs attracted to ESFJish type

2) If they find an ESFJish who finds them intriguing too then the relationship's on

3) INTP doesn't actually like the ESFJ (& will probably leave????)

I think that's a pile of horse crap, personally. I don't want someone who finds me "intriguing". I'm not a science experiment for your amusement, and neither do I have any desire to find another person who I don't actually like, play with them until they feel something for me and then discard them. That's inhumane.

It doesn't sound remotely like INTPish behaviour if you ask me.
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Old 25th-July-2017, 05:46 PM   #104
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How do you define "care about"?

I think this is what confounds me but I can kinda sense with my husband. And I always wanted him to care more about a lot of things... Like I do. I always felt some sort of disconnect between us and sense it between him and our son. But maybe I'm just overly sensitive.

Could some of you elaborate on this? I don't understand how humans can not care about other humans. I'm not trying to make you feel bad or wrong I just really don't understand. Is it because people annoy you? Did you start off liking people? Do you care more for relatives (parents, siblings) inherently or because you know you should? Do you value human life? Do you ever feel "connected" with another human? -- Under what circumstances?

My husband has said, "I don't like people" but he's often very thoughtful of others and kind to people.
People are just boring, most of them are idiots, most conversation don't share important information but instead some useless shit. But after all I like people, they are something what I can analyze.
I don't care if someone is my parent, my friend, my family, I treat all people same. So I can be better for some stranger than for my sister, if the stranger is nice and interesting. Also I'm not attached to anyone, and I can leave every relationship if someone wants to control me.
Not every intp is like this, especially intp girls are different - they are much more warm and sensitive, but they pay price for it - they're not really happy.
You must understand that INTPs think big - they don't care about helping one man, they want help whole humanity. That's why we have now so advances technology and don't leave in caves. It's job done by millions of NTs.
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Old 25th-July-2017, 05:56 PM   #105
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I think that's a pile of horse crap, personally. I don't want someone who finds me "intriguing". I'm not a science experiment for your amusement, and neither do I have any desire to find another person who I don't actually like, play with them until they feel something for me and then discard them. That's inhumane.

It doesn't sound remotely like INTPish behaviour if you ask me.
INTPs are quite passive when it comes to relationships, so you're right, none will enter relationship just of curiosity.
I don't know your age, but I'm still young (22) and sometimes talk with people just to observe what they talk, think, do, just for the sake of better understanding people. It's not playing on human feelings - I just try to find something in people to connect with them, I try find something interesting in them, because they bore me so much. My ISTP cousin do the same.
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Old 25th-July-2017, 06:22 PM   #106
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People are just boring, most of them are idiots, most conversation don't share important information but instead some useless shit. But after all I like people, they are something what I can analyze.
Do these people walk away from conversations with you thinking "damn, that guy was really interesting, I wish I was as interesting as him"?

Probably what happens is: you are completely passive in the interaction, which forces the counterpart to find ways to drive the conversation forward, which in turn forces them to recourse to trivial topics, which is boring to everyone, not just you.

This is not to say everyone is interesting to talk to. But surprisingly many, I would say.
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Old 25th-July-2017, 10:04 PM   #107
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Do these people walk away from conversations with you thinking "damn, that guy was really interesting, I wish I was as interesting as him"?

Probably what happens is: you are completely passive in the interaction, which forces the counterpart to find ways to drive the conversation forward, which in turn forces them to recourse to trivial topics, which is boring to everyone, not just you.

This is not to say everyone is interesting to talk to. But surprisingly many, I would say.
that is partially true, because I could tell more about my interests, but from my experience most people are not interested in transhumanizm, AI, neuroscience (most people don't believe me, when I tell them that there is no such thing as free will); so I tried, but I'm a bit dissapointed by people now, I don't have energy to make new relationships;
I know I can be boring too, I could read more, know more about my interests, but I have too many duties now ...
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Old 26th-July-2017, 07:51 AM   #108
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I think most NTP's tend to give up on people in a genera sense but allow room for individuals who unexpectedly deviate from the norm.

I think people are generally stupid, wasteful and shit and there's an undeniable endless mountain of evidence that supports this. Yet there's a lot of room for individuals to be good friends or for me to care about them.
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Old 26th-July-2017, 08:51 AM   #109
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I care when something beyond control happen to the person I'm feeling connected to. Impulsiveness, laziness, contstant daydreaming, lack of interest in practical life, purposely pissing off people there are all my own faults, so I am just angry when I see them in others. But if I already like a person, I completely overlook this and prefer to live some form of fantasy about him/her. Often this attitude bites me in the ass and I become very bitter about my every relationship, but it pass and everything starts all over again. Lack of healthy boundries, or so they say.
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Old 27th-July-2017, 12:09 AM   #110
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It's complete bullshit that INTPs don't care about people.

It's just that socially maladjusted introverts sometimes like to invent such narratives as a way of coping.

It's sometimes painful to admit that one cares, and passionately at that, when the feeling is not reciprocated. Thus one gets in the habit of saying "I'm this cool mofo who doesn't care". That is a maladaption.

I find myself being passionately interested in everyone I meet. But perhaps novelty at least when it comes to the opposite sex is a necessary element in this whole thing.
I agree with you. I was just watching a video of Jordan Peterson and he essentially said if a child doesn't start to socialize with its peers by about age 4, its like they are a lost cause. My guess is that this type of thing is what causes these people to be "maladapted introverts" Its a puzzle for me whether I fit this category or not.
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Old 27th-July-2017, 03:46 AM   #111
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We have back to back appointments with the counselor this Tuesday. I'll go in first and then my husband and I will go in together. I'm seeing the counselor first so we can talk without my husband and hopefully I'll be in a good enough head space to handle the together part of the session well.

Any last words of advice? I'm still not completely sure why my husband agreed to go. For all I know, this could be the first and last time. I'd like to make it the least painful as possible. If it were you, what would make it the most comfortable? Again, this is the first time my husband will talk to this guy. I assume the guy is going to want to ask my husband questions.
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Old 27th-July-2017, 06:52 AM   #112
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He's probably just going to ask for general background information and not attempt to really lead it anywhere.

If you're having this much relationship trouble I'm sure that there'll be plenty of material to discuss without the counsellor even needing to speak. If your husband is going maybe he also wants to still try, or maybe he doesn't have the heart to make a clean break. I lean towards the former really.

I wouldn't expect a great deal of change from the first session.
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Old 12th-August-2017, 12:52 PM   #113
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ANOTHER UPDATE:

Nutshell: Went to counseling session. His intention was to help me get whatever I needed in order find resolution with the way things currently are -- not to attempt to salvage anything. I find myself connecting my self worth directly to his valuation of me or his interest in being with me. And I hate it.

It's pretty clear he's totally done but completely fine staying married on paper. He said he just doesn't value a relationship with me enough to want to pursue reconciliation -- he just doesn't need the interaction. He said again, "I don't really like people."

Can't figure out why I'm struggling to accept his decision. Maybe bc it's also a decision for my life as well that apparently I have no say in. I value relationships over work/career, unlike him. I've had both parents die in front of me (different times & circumstances) and yet this is the most difficult thing I've ever dealt with.

Times like this, I wish I could channel more of an INTP thought process. I know he is a good man. I know we are just different. I still don't agree with his decision. I think the amount of effort I have & would put into understanding him and adapting to him would be very difficult to find in anybody else. Still, he has the right to choose what he wants in his life (although I think you give some independent choice up when you get married).

How do you guys process through stuff like this?

I had an INTJ friend tell me she would just focus on all the negatives of the relationship any time she began to waver and miss her ex or think about taking him back. (I actually think this is likely what my husband does.) Is that what you guys do too?

I'll never be INTP but I see much value in taking healthy processes from others and trying to practice them in my own life. So... Break it down for me. How do y'all move on? Where does the strength come from? It looks a lot like self worth and confidence. I struggle with insecurity and weakness. Literally all of my friends, the counselor, and several of you have basically said, "Move on. It's over." Is it really that easy for you? And what exactly does that process look like for you?
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Old 12th-August-2017, 01:03 PM   #114
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I don't really have any experience in ending such a huge commitment and part of my life, and I think you just need to give it time. I usually just consider the positives and enjoyment I had with the person, realise that for whatever reason (regardless of whose fault or anything) we just weren't really compatible when and how we needed to be.

Knowing all the details of why is sort of les important and not really healthy to delve into initially. I think it might be better to focus on the bigger picture at first - change is coming and you'll need to accept that however you can. Once the general reality is accepted, the details might start to click, but I don't think it's healthy to start from the tiniest details and try to make them all fit - they just won't. Any ending of a longterm relationship is going to be rife with lots of things that don't make sense, and lots of regret and difficulty coming to terms with wtf has just happened.

I think you should focus more on the things you value, than in trying to reverse engineer this all. If you're _actually_ ESFJ I suspect it'll make you feel worse rather than better - and instead you could maybe look to channel your energy into things you value that aren't specifically your marriage.

Sorry it didn't turn out the way you'd hoped. Bear in mind I'm not a counsellor or anything, take my words with a grain (a cup) of salt.
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Old 12th-August-2017, 01:37 PM   #115
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Can somebody TL;DR it for me? I'm too much of an ignorant shithead to read.
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Old 12th-August-2017, 04:48 PM   #116
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^ ESFJ wants to use counseling to make relationship better. INTP has no interest and doesn't seem to care about relationship, but has no problem staying married regardless.

I think.
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Old 12th-August-2017, 04:58 PM   #117
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Oh, that's an easy one.

If the other party will not meet you half way in matters of such import, what the fuck are you doing with them? Get a grip. Terminate your relationship and find somebody who will actually respect you.

#Feelerproblems.
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Old 12th-August-2017, 05:35 PM   #118
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...I think you should focus more on the things you value, than in trying to reverse engineer this all. If you're _actually_ ESFJ I suspect it'll make you feel worse rather than better - and instead you could maybe look to channel your energy into things you value that aren't specifically your marriage...
Thanks for your thoughtful response.

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^ ESFJ wants to use counseling to make relationship better. INTP has no interest and doesn't seem to care about relationship, but has no problem staying married regardless.

I think.
Yep. Pretty much.

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Oh, that's an easy one.

If the other party will not meet you half way in matters of such import, what the fuck are you doing with them? Get a grip. Terminate your relationship and find somebody who will actually respect you.

#Feelerproblems.
#FeelerProblems for sure.

So... We all know I'm a feeler. And we all know it's not logical or healthy to stay in a relationship where one person doesn't really want the other. I can logically get that. Simply saying "get a grip" might be how you feel but isn't actually helpful. I don't know if you guys can understand this but I wake up without knowing I've thought I single thought & I'm hit with nauseousness. I try to think about positive things & at the same time burst into tears with overwhelming sadness. Anxiety comes in waves. So, do I need to get a grip bc we're talking about one single person"s actions having such power over me? Yes. Absolutely. I do.

My question is, HOW? I don't really need to hear I need to move on. I don't really need to hear I shouldn't care this much. I know those things. I didn't ask to be a feeler and, believe me, if I could snap my fingers change that, don't you think I would?

I read a book years ago where I psychologist studied those who made it out of concentration camps alive vs. those who didn't and other such horrible situations. His goal was to break it down to the process of thoughts & see what was different between those who were happy after horrible events and those who were not. The book was filled with step-by-step thought process examples of those who overcame. That's moreso what I'm asking. I figure if a human being can think and process a certain way and I have a functional human brain then I can train myself to think and function that way, too.
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Old 12th-August-2017, 05:45 PM   #119
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What do you think is the main thing that is stopping you from moving on? Is it compassion for the guy, or a feeling that you are somehow invested in the relationship, or fear of being alone, or feeling you are breaking some sort of rules, or something else?
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Old 12th-August-2017, 05:58 PM   #120
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So... We all know I'm a feeler. And we all know it's not logical or healthy to stay in a relationship where one person doesn't really want the other. I can logically get that. Simply saying "get a grip" might be how you feel but isn't actually helpful. I don't know if you guys can understand this but I wake up without knowing I've thought I single thought & I'm hit with nauseousness. I try to think about positive things & at the same time burst into tears with overwhelming sadness. Anxiety comes in waves. So, do I need to get a grip bc we're talking about one single person"s actions having such power over me? Yes. Absolutely. I do.

My question is, HOW? I don't really need to hear I need to move on. I don't really need to hear I shouldn't care this much. I know those things. I didn't ask to be a feeler and, believe me, if I could snap my fingers change that, don't you think I would?
Yeah, sorry. This is a language I don't understand. I've known many ESFJs in my time and y'all confusing as shit.

I hope you find an effective resolution to your problem, for what it's worth.
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Old 12th-August-2017, 07:14 PM   #121
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What do you think is the main thing that is stopping you from moving on? Is it compassion for the guy, or a feeling that you are somehow invested in the relationship, or fear of being alone, or feeling you are breaking some sort of rules, or something else?
I wish I understood it all but I don't. That's the bane of being a feeler, I guess. I feel it and it can be quite strong and controlling but I don't always understand it. I'd say there was a piece of everything you mentioned above. At this point, compassion for my husband is a lesser feeling, though, and more of the loss of investment, definitely fear of being alone. Rules used to be a big thing for me but not so much any more.

Maybe it has something to do with my Agreeableness, too. My world and self worth are tied directly to my deepest relationships. That's how I know who I am and if I'm winning in life. I mean... we could go a lot deeper than that, too. Not only are relationships the most important thing to me but I'm doubly cursed b/c I likely have daddy issues from not having one growing up, none of my side of the family is close so I think I put all my relationship needs in this one husband-basket, I was close to his side of the family but of course that's not the case now, blah blah blah. But the reality is, I don't have to let any of that define me. It's a choice, right? At least I think it should be. And I think that's how you guys handle it -- a switch or lever that you can choose to turn off or on and then move on.

I hear myself and it all sounds a lot like self loathing and weakness. I can see that. I can rationally understand that's not helpful or necessary. You can see things and make a conscious decisions to divert your energies elsewhere. I wish you could bottle that and give me a dose or two. I guess I was thinking if I could have step-by-step instructions on how to NOT allow this relationship disaster to affect me so strongly, maybe I could follow them. Maybe I could try the ol' "fake it till you make it." But maybe it's not possible b/c like PmjPmj says below -- I'm not even talking a language you guys understand.

I feel like two people in one body. One agrees I just need to get a grip. That other assures me I'm powerless. I think I've studied enough to know I don't have to be a victim to my ESFJ nature. I definitely don't always ESFJ in every difficult situation like I used to. I guess I haven't evolved enough yet to overcome those inherent traits in overwhelming circumstances. I have a theory. And I'm using myself a test subject. I believe a person can grow past their natural personality traits but how far? Will they always revert back to their original state? Maybe. In my case, I notice in moderate to medium stress, I have trained myself to overcome my natural compulsions. In this situation which feels dire, apparently I cannot. At least not yet.

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Yeah, sorry. This is a language I don't understand. I've known many ESFJs in my time and y'all confusing as shit.

I hope you find an effective resolution to your problem, for what it's worth.
Yeah, I get it. I'm being a total feeler right now & I'm grasping at straws. And what am I thinking grasping at straws on an INTP forum!?!? Obviously, I'm desperate.
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Old 12th-August-2017, 08:34 PM   #122
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If you are afraid of being alone then stop the relationship right now, get divorced and drive far away, like deftones.
I'm not joking, sometimes you have to deal with pain and sadness after a while you will recover meet new people and start a new life. I know this sounds to adventurous and its harder to do than to be told but this is the only true.
Once something is so burnt it just won't ever fix itself
If you wanna live again leave behind anything that's worrying you.

Deal with it.
Be strong.
Cry.
Ull be fine.
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Old 12th-August-2017, 11:55 PM   #123
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Try and remember that it's actually pretty normal to feel like this after a huge loss. You're actually in mourning right now, which people do after losing something that's a huge part of their life. People reserve the term for deaths but I think that the grief and sadness we feel which puts us into this state can occur in other ways too.

I think you need to maybe say to your husband that being married in this limbo state isn't an option for you. Make a step to resolving this now - it's honestly just a terrible situation where you are married but not married. If it's truly over, this needs to happen I think.
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Old 13th-August-2017, 05:01 AM   #124
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I wish I understood it all but I don't. That's the bane of being a feeler, I guess. I feel it and it can be quite strong and controlling but I don't always understand it. I'd say there was a piece of everything you mentioned above. At this point, compassion for my husband is a lesser feeling, though, and more of the loss of investment, definitely fear of being alone. Rules used to be a big thing for me but not so much any more.

Maybe it has something to do with my Agreeableness, too. My world and self worth are tied directly to my deepest relationships. That's how I know who I am and if I'm winning in life.
I would speculate that for you, it's not about the investment you have done in terms of time and effort, but that you feel that a large part of your identity is defined directly in terms of this relationship. As you say, your self worth is tied to your relationships.

How you proceed depends on whether you want a solution to this particular problem or the bigger underlying problem (namely defining yourself in terms of external events)
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Old 13th-August-2017, 01:05 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by TheManBeyond View Post
If you are afraid of being alone then stop the relationship right now, get divorced and drive far away, like deftones.
I'm not joking, sometimes you have to deal with pain and sadness after a while you will recover meet new people and start a new life. I know this sounds to adventurous and its harder to do than to be told but this is the only true.
Once something is so burnt it just won't ever fix itself
If you wanna live again leave behind anything that's worrying you.

Deal with it.
Be strong.
Cry.
Ull be fine.
I'm at the point where I can say I wholeheartedly want to live again. I can't really do just drive away -- due to a 17 year old son & other responsibilities but it sure sounds good. I'm decided to drive away in my mind & that actually helps.

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Try and remember that it's actually pretty normal to feel like this after a huge loss. You're actually in mourning right now, which people do after losing something that's a huge part of their life. People reserve the term for deaths but I think that the grief and sadness we feel which puts us into this state can occur in other ways too.

I think you need to maybe say to your husband that being married in this limbo state isn't an option for you. Make a step to resolving this now - it's honestly just a terrible situation where you are married but not married. If it's truly over, this needs to happen I think.
Grief & mourning -- that's exactly it. Something about me makes it really difficult to make this huge choice even though I think I've known it's been needed for a long time. I always doubt myself and am paralyzed by fear of regret. But all the feedback I've gotten is like yours above & at some point I'll stop ignoring it & take action. Maybe I'll take a bit of my strength and control back this way. Thanks for your input. It's helped.

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I would speculate that for you, it's not about the investment you have done in terms of time and effort, but that you feel that a large part of your identity is defined directly in terms of this relationship. As you say, your self worth is tied to your relationships.

How you proceed depends on whether you want a solution to this particular problem or the bigger underlying problem (namely defining yourself in terms of external events)
Yeah -- my identity tied to this relationship. Sucks. Trying to reprogram. Definitely want to correct this trait & learn that I define myself, not others.

So, this is what a mental/emotional break looks like for an ESFJ, I guess. And I actually think I'm one of the more developed ones. I base this in part on the fact that it's *only* taken me about 4 days of being distraught & wallowing in self-pity before I started to be able to focus more on taking control & sensing any feeling of empowerment or hope. The first time we separated was about 5 years ago & it turned into a multiple-month deep depression for me so, yeah, 4 days is a vast improvement.

I wonder if you guys go through this but it's all internal. Whereas everything in me wants to reach outward toward others in order to cope.
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Old 13th-August-2017, 03:05 PM   #126
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Default Re: Ask an ESFJ

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I wonder if you guys go through this but it's all internal. Whereas everything in me wants to reach outward toward others in order to cope.
I think this is true for me at least. Internalising, that is.

I think talking about how you feel is a good idea. It is better to express than not to, even if you just write things down. Otherwise it just sits there inside you, like poison. Internalising everything is not healthy if you cannot find solutions. Feeling things strongly has nothing to do with personality type - it is human and normal. Being a 'feeler' just means you have strong humanitarian/societal values - it's a good thing.

Although I am not sure how healthy it is, processing alone could potentially make you stronger than going through the motions with the help of a whole support network. Going it alone can provide you with some powerful tools for dealing with crap further down the track. It could be a more powerful way of processing in the way that it provides you with your own skills rather than those recommended by others, but I guess it really depends on the person. Humans are social animals, so it is probably more natural to utilise a social network when you have it, and it could potentially stop you from hardening too much as a person.

I'm not people-focused, and I don't value relationships highly. I'm happy alone or in a relationship, it doesn't matter. I have a tough shell, but still experience emotions as you do. The perceived stoicism is just a result of dealing with crap alone all my life.

I know this is not very comforting to you right now. You just need time to process everything naturally. Continue to write here, or talk to your closest friends. Stay away from any toxic relationships, because these will just feed your self-doubt and insecurities.
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Old 13th-August-2017, 03:31 PM   #127
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Default Re: Ask an ESFJ

My primary method of dealing with emotions is to analyze the root cause, as rigorously as possible. There is no point in trying to deny that the emotions are there, or feeling bad for having the emotions. That will just cause more bad emotions. When you are able to accept and understand the emotion, it loses its grip over you. I agree with Polaris that writing things down is a viable technique in this regard. I have never sought other people's support when dealing with emotions, because ultimately, the only thing other people can provide is temporary escape from the reality of the situation.
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Old 14th-August-2017, 12:00 AM   #128
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I'm not really sure people are appreciating the impact of ending a 17 year marriage.

But I guess it is INTPforum after all *shrug*
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Old 14th-August-2017, 03:29 AM   #129
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my parents got divorced after 21 years together, when they did i felt so fucking happy. i was 19/20 i think?
perhaps best thing that happened in my life so far? or at least that impacted my development in such a strong positive way but u know not everyone deals with it the same, take a look over your kid.
what's a fact is that some things must end
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Old 14th-August-2017, 04:43 AM   #130
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^ Heh. My mom said she stayed with my dad for over 20 years for us kids. Ironically, all the yelling and throwing shit and fighting and bipolar emotions wasn't really something we appreciated.
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Old 14th-August-2017, 02:08 PM   #131
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Default Re: Ask an ESFJ

The 5 stages of grief and loss are: 1. Denial and isolation; 2. Anger; 3. Bargaining; 4. Depression; 5. Acceptance. People who are grieving do not necessarily go through the stages in the same order or experience all of them.

Do you guys go through the same stages? Mine seem to be in a different order: Denial, Depression & Bargaining simultaneously, Anger, "Acceptance" for me looks more like "Being so ticked I regain some self respect & move on out of sass & stubbornness." Not sure that's really acceptance or healthy but it's the way I roll.

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I think this is true for me at least. Internalising, that is.

I think talking about how you feel is a good idea. It is better to express than not to, even if you just write things down. Otherwise it just sits there inside you, like poison. ...

Although I am not sure how healthy it is, processing alone could potentially make you stronger than going through the motions with the help of a whole support network. Going it alone can provide you with some powerful tools for dealing with crap further down the track. It could be a more powerful way of processing in the way that it provides you with your own skills rather than those recommended by others, ...

I'm not people-focused, and I don't value relationships highly. I'm happy alone or in a relationship, it doesn't matter. I have a tough shell, but still experience emotions as you do. The perceived stoicism is just a result of dealing with crap alone all my life.

I know this is not very comforting to you right now. You just need time to process everything naturally. Continue to write here, or talk to your closest friends. Stay away from any toxic relationships, because these will just feed your self-doubt and insecurities.
Actually, Polaris, I found what you wrote quite comforting. I wish I weren't people-focused bc people suck. Thank you for taking the time to respond to a total stranger. I really am trying to counter balance my Fe with my Ti. I do finally understand you guys still feel deeply even if I can't see it. I'm so driven by my feelings, it feels like being controlled by another force against your will. The best I can describe it is a compulsion. Like an addict. You know it's not good for you to take that next pill or drink but everything inside you tries to override your logical thinking. Being aware that this is a compulsion & I have a choice helps but it's still incredibly difficult to overcome. Reading your & others posts help strengthen me & remind me it's possible to do things a different way.

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My primary method of dealing with emotions is to analyze the root cause, as rigorously as possible. There is no point in trying to deny that the emotions are there, or feeling bad for having the emotions. That will just cause more bad emotions. When you are able to accept and understand the emotion, it loses its grip over you. I agree with Polaris that writing things down is a viable technique in this regard. I have never sought other people's support when dealing with emotions, because ultimately, the only thing other people can provide is temporary escape from the reality of the situation.
I'm going to try practicing this. Right now, I want to run as far away from the emotions as I can -- i think an unhealthy process I've used time an again. I can see how dealing with them could take their power away but I don't know how you get through the dealing with them part. Will try. One friend in particular has helped me talk it out -- see, I have to externalize to figure a lot of this stuff out. It seems like I'm mostly afraid to be alone due to my childhood & past events. And my self-worth being tied to another person & how they feel about me is a huge issue. So, I think I've named it. Now I gotta figure out what to do with it. You're right about people being only a temporary support. They're like that quick dose of drugs for me.

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Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
I'm not really sure people are appreciating the impact of ending a 17 year marriage.

But I guess it is INTPforum after all *shrug*
"Get over it" -- seems a bit flippant for such a long relationship but I guess, in the end, that's really my only choice, eh? I appreciate this thread & all the replies. It's been very therapeutic.

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Originally Posted by TheManBeyond View Post
my parents got divorced after 21 years together, when they did i felt so fucking happy. i was 19/20 i think?
perhaps best thing that happened in my life so far? or at least that impacted my development in such a strong positive way but u know not everyone deals with it the same, take a look over your kid.
what's a fact is that some things must end
Kid's past 3 years are mainly memories of us spending most time apart. If I can hold it together, I think things will continue pretty normally for him even through & after divorce. He has seen/heard little conflict and unrest over that time. I think he'll be fine with it all.

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^ Heh. My mom said she stayed with my dad for over 20 years for us kids. Ironically, all the yelling and throwing shit and fighting and bipolar emotions wasn't really something we appreciated.
We haven't had the yelling or throwing stuff for probably 5 years. But it's still good to hear you guys say you feel the divorce was a positive thing. My kiddo has been a huge factor in my decision to stay married. But, honestly, I think mostly I've stayed bc I've held on to the idea of what could be, admire the husband more than anybody I can imagine ever meeting again, and fear -- of things mentioned above.

TO ALL:

Thanks for allowing me a space to share my thoughts and for all your feedback. It really has been helpful & therapeutic. I still hope to get to a place where I can go through things like this more internally.

I think I'm getting closer to the Anger stage. Which feels much better than depression or denial. Not sure what Acceptance will look like. If it's filling for divorce and moving on but with some bitterness and fire in my heart then, yeah, I think I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on divorce. I think I have a loooong way to go before I no longer feel some sense of anger/betrayal/bitterness but I guess it's a better place to be than where I was several days ago.

I have a session with the counselor this morning. I kind of think there's nothing he's going to be able to tell me that I don't already know but we'll see how it goes. Might continue seeing him for a little while longer.
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Old 14th-August-2017, 04:52 PM   #132
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Default Re: Ask an ESFJ

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I think I'm getting closer to the Anger stage. Which feels much better than depression or denial. Not sure what Acceptance will look like. If it's filling for divorce and moving on but with some bitterness and fire in my heart then, yeah, I think I'm pretty close to pulling the trigger on divorce. I think I have a loooong way to go before I no longer feel some sense of anger/betrayal/bitterness but I guess it's a better place to be than where I was several days ago.
I can't say what Acceptance will seem like to you, should you make that final choice, but I know what it looked like to me at the end of a 10 year marriage. It had been an unhealthy relationship for several years. We were not living separately, but we were sleeping in separate beds. We barely spoke, and if we did it was probably to fight.

I had told myself I was staying for the kids. Because she was not in a fit state to look after them without me (mental health and drug issues). I had overlooked affairs and many other things that I should not have, and I kept telling myself there was still hope for what we once had. We had once had a deep and meaningful relationship that I had believed I cold never again find. But one day, I could no longer overlook it all.

Although I will say it was that final affair and that week of continuous drug abuse that did it, it wasn't. That was merely a moment when I realised that whatever we'd once had was long gone. And there was no point waiting for it to come back, or trying to find it. I had always been willing to try to fix things, but she was not. And there is nothing that can be done when only one party is willing to change or is willing to work at it. A relationship can only work if it is two way.

And that was the acceptance. When I finally took off the mask I wore each day where I smiled and pretended we were still a couple and that things were OK. Because they weren't. My experience is that you don't chose to end a relationship that long - you realise it has already ended and that you are merely clinging to a memory of it now. Maybe this is not where you are right now, but it sounds like it. I don't regret finally ending things in the slightest, nor have I considered her return for the shortest of moments.
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Old 14th-August-2017, 06:31 PM   #133
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Default Re: Ask an ESFJ

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My experience is that you don't chose to end a relationship that long - you realise it has already ended and that you are merely clinging to a memory of it now. Maybe this is not where you are right now, but it sounds like it. I don't regret finally ending things in the slightest, nor have I considered her return for the shortest of moments.
This sounds very much like the place I'm slowly coming to. Do you find that you have anger toward her for not trying?
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Old 14th-August-2017, 06:56 PM   #134
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This sounds very much like the place I'm slowly coming to. Do you find that you have anger toward her for not trying?
At first, yes. But for so long I had done the INTP thing of keeping the peace and accepting things the way they were that I had become an enabler of her behaviour. And that meant accepting some of the blame, at least. But in the end, it didn't matter. I don't there was ever anything I could have done to change the outcome.

I was quite angry for a while, but I've seen enough in life not hold on to anger. After a while, I just let it go. And it's all in the past now. We still communicate as we have to due to the kids, but I feel almost nothing when I see her now. Not anger, sorrow or regret. It's just a phase of life that has passed, and it became time to move on.

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Old 15th-August-2017, 10:44 PM   #135
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Hey all. I'm still alive. I'm turning the corner. I've:

- Registered for college courses. Since I was a full-time wife and mom (and took care of our ranch & animals) I haven't yet finished getting my degree. If I go full time, I should graduate with a bachelor's in psychology summer of 2018. Classes start next week.

- Got the kiddo enrolled in dual credit classes at the local community college.

- I'm keeping my nonprofit orgs alive - only just barely, though.

- Allowed myself to lean on a friend this weekend so i wasn't alone while my kiddo is gone & managed to make it to church which helps

But... I'm also:

- drinking a lot (not water)

- waking up around 5:30 AM & can't shut my brain off

- not cleaning like I should (seriously I feel like the house is gross but at least I managed to clean the pool today)

- barely taking care of the animals

- dealing with waves of lows

So... Overall, I'd say I'm doing pretty well.
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Old Yesterday, 04:02 AM   #136
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The waves of lows are normal. Their amplitude and frequency will decrease with time, as they run out of energy to fuel them.

You really are doing well.

Best of luck.
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Old Yesterday, 04:04 AM   #137
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Stay off the booze, Crystal!
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Old Yesterday, 05:12 AM   #138
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hot mama!
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Old Yesterday, 01:51 PM   #139
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Stay off the booze, Crystal!
I know drinking to dull emotions isn't great but I also know I'm not going to do this forever. Mornings are actually the worst -- waking up with a wave of anxiety. But I notice the wave getting a little weaker day by day.

My classes start next week & drinking all day won't be an option. For now, I've made a conscious decision to use it like I would use Xanax -- which I had a negative reaction to and will never touch the stuff again. I have the equivalent of about 1 beer every 2-3 hours. If I'm still drinking this much in a couple weeks, you guys have my permission to kick my butt.

Which brings me to something I've been thinking about for a while. Which is better: prescription drugs or alcohol? Even the Bible says wine gladdens the heart and is good for the stomach. Where does medicinal use end & abuse begin? Why is it acceptable for me to wake up & pop a pill but not take a swig? (Wish I were asking for a friend.) /:

This morning, I'm going to yoga. So the drinking is necessarily very light. Not saying I'm proud of this behavior. But it's definitely a tool I'm utilizing to get through things. Maybe that's all really horrible to confess but it's true. THIS is why I've been prying into y'all's lives so much -- bc being able to process the emotions and compartmentalize them is what I want to some day be able to do much better. Maybe then, Xanax & drinking would both be unnecessary.
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Old Yesterday, 02:03 PM   #140
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Default Re: Ask an ESFJ

VISION BOARD

Have any of you used a vision board before? If so, for what and what did you think of it?

When I was talking with my friend & telling her I felt like I didn't know who I was anymore or what my worth was she asked me if I could identify what it was I valued in myself. My instant response was being a wife and a mother and one of those things is getting ripped from me and the other will be out the door soon. I couldn't think of anything else.

My friend went on to tell me the things that she admired about me and saw in me and the woman she described actually sounded pretty awesome to me. I couldn't believe how different our views were.

She then suggested I create a vision board with pictures and quotes of all of the things I do, am interested in, and goals I have. Just the visual that created in my mind alone actually made something kind of click in my head. There really is more to me than just mom & wife. I actually do some kinda cool things.

I'm not sure if I'm going to go through with literally creating a vision board but I was curious if any of you have. And what your thoughts were on it. I'm curious bc this sounds like something INTPs would not need but maybe already mentally practice something like it.
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Old Yesterday, 02:04 PM   #141
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I mean it isn't ideal but if you know you're using it to cope and you have a plan to end it, that's better than unconscious abuse at least. The worry is in you finding more reasons to keep drinking than to stop, and that it interferes with the actual process you need to go through on top of any physical harm it can potentially do.

That said I think you'll do okay. You seem on the up, and you'll likely go down and up for quite a while, but generally you'll trend towards up over time.

Prescription drugs vs. Alcohol is a slippery slope. Not sure if it's something you've ever tried but meditation might be useful, or even just more exercise. Anything that pulls your focus away from the immediate negativity to help you get through the day.

Ideally you could come back in a few days and mention that you're drinking less?
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