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Old 30th-September-2015, 12:48 PM   #1
Tannhauser
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Default Should INTPs have jobs?

Being a recent graduate, I have been looking for jobs. I have to say: the work life does not look very intriguing. I would say that 99/100 job descriptions out there make me inclined to vomit.

Clearly, we all have to make the cash monies to survive in this world. But ideally, would an INTP have a job? Or should the INTP be a sort of flaneur, not being commited to any schedule or workplace, but instead being paid to think about specific topics occasionally? It should probably be a new topic every week as well.

Let's consider two scenarios: the INTP in an ideal world, and the INTP in the current world. What would be the perfect circumstances, work-wise, for the INTP in both of these two?
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Old 30th-September-2015, 03:38 PM   #2
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Sadly yes,that is my current situation more or less(after the army,before university)
Without having a job in what way would an intp way of thinking person socialize?
In the end intp is a human to need to go out sometime.

The best thing,I would say,hey intp take this money,do whatever the hell you want.
Basicly being in a company but without a direct boss.
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Old 30th-September-2015, 04:11 PM   #3
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Fellow INP here, though of the Feeler and not Thinker flavor.

I just graduated this year also. Living for years in conformance to the comparatively loose and open-ended scheduling of university life was bad enough, I must say. I had initially considered teaching (secondary/TEFL), but then I realized the last thing in the world I want right now is to be stuck in a room with 20+ other people day in, day out. Maybe I'll still change my mind, if I ever become fed up with isolation and seclusion.

Though ever worried about job security and whether I'll be able to save up enough for a rainy day, much less retirement, I've been doing web jobs (writing/editing/blogging) since I graduated. I'm hoping I can work my way up the ladder this way (I'm finally learning the value of hard work as well as networking), maybe get promoted to editor, for instance...also, sometimes I revisit the alma mater to participate in one of those nifty paid studies, which I got into the habit of participating in when I was still a student.

So, freelancing and such might be best for many P types like us...as for getting paid to think, I suppose there's always grad school (only being half-facetious [for me personally I think I couldn't stand being in academia another day]) or perhaps blogging or vlogging or something. Depending on your background, I guess there's also investing and tech and entrepreneurship and things like that. I have been considering going into journalism myself recently, since I'm fond of the idea of being able to write objectively (well I guess this is sometimes a "sort of" in journalism) and usefully.

But really, a generic office job is beginning not to seem so bad, especially if I can just sit in my cubicle and do my own thing for much of the day. The drama and politics would certainly become wearisome, but I would just try to ignore it. I've become somewhat cynical about the efficacy and transparency of ethical/humanitarian organizations like Oxfam or SOS Children's Villages, but I think at least I would feel like I was contributing to something meaningful...
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Old 30th-September-2015, 04:28 PM   #4
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

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Originally Posted by Tannhauser View Post
Clearly, we all have to make the cash monies to survive in this world. But ideally, would an INTP have a job? Or should the INTP be a sort of flaneur, not being commited to any schedule or workplace, but instead being paid to think about specific topics occasionally? It should probably be a new topic every week as well.
Closest thing to that scheme IRL is consultancy. Even so, you need insane amount of work experience and honed expertise for you to get to that level. One of the consultants that I work with was in the field for almost two decades but he does command a good salary.
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Old 30th-September-2015, 05:04 PM   #5
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Professor is probably the best an INTP can hope for.

PhD in ______ is a doctorate in Philosophy after all.
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Old 30th-September-2015, 05:24 PM   #6
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Absolutely yes.

I'll tell you my story Tannhauser. I'm in my 30s. Went through a very long process of self-discovery. Without MBTI, I'm afraid I'd still be lost. It brought clarity and understanding into my life.

I was an ESL teacher for 4 years, lived in China for 3 years, worked in management consulting over there for a short stint, applied and was accepted to medical school in the US. In order to do that, had to work in clinical research and Emergency Room. Turned down med school, and spent the next several years going back and forth between feelings of regret and confidence that I'd done the right thing (this was in my early 20s). Then I thought I should try to get back into med school, took the MCAT again if you can believe that, aced it (for the second time 36), then realized again that something about med school just didn't sit right. The reason I went through this back-and-forth confusion for so long concerning medicine is that 1) my parents are both physicians and did nothing to dissuade me from it and 2) inferior Fe.

Now I'm in school for computer science, and I would say I'm roughly 80% sure that I am finally on the right path. Medicine was always very alluring b/c I believe it appeals to that unconscious inferior function, and yet this conflicted with my dominant, analytical mind (Ti). That's why I could never quite make up my mind b/c the instant I tried to abandon medicine (Ti) based on logic, I would suddenly become really scared/emotional (and I didn't understand why for a long time) and then this caused me to worry that I was making a terrible mistake (Fe).

So...the bottom line is that INTPs want to find their life purpose really badly. They specifically want to know what they should be doing as a career. The good news is that the answer is to choose a career and job that makes heavy use of Ti and little to no use of Fe. That's the principle. CS doesn't have the allure for me that medicine does, and likely never will. But I can sit in front of a computer and write/read/code/think all day long, and if I work hard and don't fuck around online, I experience peace, satisfaction, and fulfillment. In my opinion, it doesn't get better than that.

I'm sure it's possible that there are other good careers out there besides software dev for INTPs (Intelligence analysis for the CIA/DoD would likely also be an excellent choice is my guess), but I chose software b/c it fits the underlined criterion above, has excellent job opportunities, doesn't directly involve killing people, is a fast-changing field, good enough compensation, and lots of variety in terms of what you can get into.

I wish you the best in making your choice. It's not an easy one to make by any measure.

*I also want to add that any job that really requires mostly analysis, creativity, and writing of some kind is likely to be a good fit. Therefore, consulting may or may not work well. For example, I found management consulting to blow. There's almost no analysis, and you're outputting PowerPoint slides. Very formulaic/cookie-cutter kind of stuff. Working in a think-tank though, might be better if you like writing policy analysis papers. I would suspect the best jobs in those areas go to people with a Master or PhD. Intelligence analysis would be a really interesting area, but again, you need a lot more education and you're confined to a very specific domain and may end up getting bored with it after a while (or not...too hard to say for certain). Independent consulting of some kind could also work, but as Pyro said, you need experience first. Working for a company I think is the best fit in terms of work situation...
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Old 30th-September-2015, 05:33 PM   #7
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Absolutely no! No job would ever fit with our high exigencies. We are far beyond every society's lame need. Society fears us, we are made to tear apart the entire planet....and to come with a solution at some point.
We are gods, we create and destroy, we do not relate to mortal's passions.
......
Also my boss hates me, and I hate him as well; I hated every job I had. I'm totally useless when it comes to every day tasks: archiving documents, keeping it in order, being punctual, taking care of details, not my thing. :/
I'm very useful though, when it comes to crisis, I saved my boss's ass once or twice XD
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Old 30th-September-2015, 05:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Passive income is the ideal. Any good niche ideas? What about intpjobs.com or intpcareers.com?
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Old 30th-September-2015, 05:42 PM   #9
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inquisitor View Post
Absolutely yes.

I'll tell you my story Tannhauser. I'm in my 30s. Went through a very long process of self-discovery. Without MBTI, I'm afraid I'd still be lost. It brought clarity and understanding into my life.

I was an ESL teacher for 4 years, lived in China for 3 years, worked in management consulting over there for a short stint, applied and was accepted to medical school in the US. In order to do that, had to work in clinical research and Emergency Room. Turned down med school, and spent the next several years going back and forth between feelings of regret and confidence that I'd done the right thing (this was in my early 20s). Then I thought I should try to get back into med school, took the MCAT again if you can believe that, aced it (for the second time 36), then realized again that something about med school just didn't sit right. The reason I went through this back-and-forth confusion for so long concerning medicine is that 1) my parents are both physicians and did nothing to dissuade me from it and 2) inferior Fe.

Now I'm in school for computer science, and I would say I'm roughly 80% sure that I am finally on the right path. Medicine was always very alluring b/c I believe it appeals to that unconscious inferior function, and yet this conflicted with my dominant, analytical mind (Ti). That's why I could never quite make up my mind b/c the instant I tried to abandon medicine (Ti) based on logic, I would suddenly become really scared/emotional (and I didn't understand why for a long time) and then this caused me to worry that I was making a terrible mistake (Fe).

So...the bottom line is that INTPs want to find their life purpose really badly. They specifically want to know what they should be doing as a career. The good news is that the answer is to choose a career and job that makes heavy use of Ti and little to no use of Fe. That's the principle. CS doesn't have the allure for me that medicine does, and likely never will. But I can sit in front of a computer and write/read/code/think all day long, and if I work hard and don't fuck around online, I experience peace, satisfaction, and fulfillment. In my opinion, it doesn't get better than that.

I'm sure it's possible that there are other good careers out there besides software dev for INTPs (Intelligence analysis for the CIA/DoD would likely also be an excellent choice is my guess), but I chose software b/c it fits the underlined criterion above, has excellent job opportunities, doesn't directly involve killing people, is a fast-changing field, good enough compensation, and lots of variety in terms of what you can get into.

I wish you the best in making your choice. It's not an easy one to make by any measure.
Huh. After graduate school in architecture and having some success as a licensed architect for a few years I thought I wanted to do medical/ dental school. So I did all the prereqs and aced the admissions test (99th percentile) and got in. Towards the end of the first year a number of things coalesced and bottom line I realized I was headed down the wrong path. Voluntarily dropped out.

My father and his father are/ were physicians.

For me, when I think about the MBTI and apply it to the physicians that I have known as well as the med students I became familiar with, INTPs are possibly non existent. Or at least if there is 1 or 2 that particular INTP has figured out how to blend in so well they aren't even themselves.

One of the reasons that I left is the medical school curriculum itself and the way its applied was so extroverted and sensory, feelings and judgement dominant I honestly was finding myself increasingly alienated from myself.

In theory the med school curriculum and application shouldn't be so ESFJ and should be amenable to the INTP mind but my goodness it just wasn't in my experience. It was horrendous.

There were other reasons I abandoned that cause though. For example, due to my relatively additional 15 years of life experience there was a lot of childish politics that I found nauseating and distracting (lectures and such on inane things like don't drink and drive and don't abuse the corpses in anatomy lab), plus at the rate the student loans were piling up I wasn't going to have that 15 years at the end of my career to actually save and invest any money of my own.

Looking back, that 4 year period of my life/ odyssey was directly a result of my INTPness and the search for self and life purpose so many INTPs struggle with. I don't regret it, necessarily, but I should've realized my INTPness earlier and not been trying so hard to redefine myself and my life purpose.

IMO and in my experience, so many INTPs would benefit immensely from understanding their nature as early as possible and relating it inextricably to their academic/ professional pursuits (as Inquisitor has so eloquently put it in his post I've quoted).

And my signature line -the link to the INTP Experience- is a helpful starting point for the INTP who is just starting to figure themselves out.

If I were to do it over again I'd get a PhD in one of my handful of pet interests that won't let me sleep at night I'm so fascinated. Then I'd become a professor. Teaching classes to a bunch of inebriated, distracted frat kids 5 days a week 4 times a day for 35 years would probably be the most distasteful aspect of that career...not bad all things considered.
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Old 30th-September-2015, 05:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

I've been working on and off for two whole years and I hate it, not in a way I can't stand, but I'm convinced I don't want my life to be based on devoting my time and attention to someone else five or six days a week in order to survive.

It doesn't depend on the kind of leadership, I just won't like the treatment even with a nice boss. Every time I have to perform something boring or repetitive I know it's my path and I need to endure the torture.

My first major goal is to be independent of work. After that I have a vision but I never want to compromise it.

Freelancing, living off investments, poker (or any profitable, strategic game or activity for that matter). Those three seem to be the most suitable profit-oriented activities and I was able to have a successful start with freelancing. I've finished several projects and I generally make up to four times more money per hour spent.

For me it is ideal, being able to choose when I want to work and what I want to sign up for, but for it to become a secure and relatively consistent source of profit, I need to develop a wide array of skills that are sought after on the market. In addition, recently, I acquired a cheap property that I rent out, it's a reliable passive income and I plan to expand my passive income in the future.

Ideally, I want to retire at 30, live off my investments and occasionally support my budget with individual projects or my own creative works if I manage to reignite that spark that I believe is there. I want to live a minimalistic life, with little conveniences to weigh me down, thus enabling me to focus on my goals. As a part of this effort I practice to change my mindset to accommodate my future lifestyle.

Not sure if I'm intp, in fact I don't care if I'm one, just sharing my experience.
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Old 30th-September-2015, 08:52 PM   #11
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Fair number of misconceptions here, except Inquisitor has the right idea*. You have to spend your life mostly doing things your dominant likes, and also which involve a lot of your auxiliary.

The mistake people make is to have a blanket judgement on a field without knowing anything about it. Take office politics above. Actually being a Professor was a lot more politics than I see in the R&D office (do you think RD colleagues like politics any more than you do?) Likewise consulting has an enormous amount of relationship management, and in a sense has less freedom than a regular job (and far more uninteresting uncertainty).

The other thing is that you can't characterize the working conditions of a field, but only of a job. All jobs are different, depending on where and who you work with. I make no secret of the fact that after trying nearly it all I've found software RD to be the most optimal. I think all INTP's, if they were prepared by education, would be most content in a software R&D job at a major company (Goog, Microsoft, etc). The big companies offer a lot of interesting areas to get into, and since IT encompasses all of human knowledge, so does software engineering.

Otherwise yes I think INTP's should work, much as they think they dislike it. Only by having a little goad in our lives do we grow, learn and go beyond ourselves.

* "CS doesn't have the allure for me that medicine does" Yes, the inferior call. It's music for me which seems much more interesting than CS, however I quickly get bored when I do music and never get bored of computers. It comes down to wanting to be what we're not, because it's exciting, but ultimately unfulfilling and unsustainable.
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Old 30th-September-2015, 09:13 PM   #12
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrGregoryHouse View Post
If I were to do it over again I'd get a PhD in one of my handful of pet interests that won't let me sleep at night I'm so fascinated. Then I'd become a professor. Teaching classes to a bunch of inebriated, distracted frat kids 5 days a week 4 times a day for 35 years would probably be the most distasteful aspect of that career...not bad all things considered.
No the politics is, the students are just an irritant.

Being a professor is commonly mentioned, but listen here folks, you know the Big Problem with being one? You have to specialize.

Say I finished that PhD, right now I'd be in a handful of experts on the Higgs boson. Or say I got a PhD/Professor job in CS, now I'd be a world expert in Security, AI, or ...? That would be it.

Being a generalist is mighty enjoyable, and you don't get that opportunity as a professor.
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Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
I don't see emotions as something that need to be controlled, they're just information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starjots
Because I think the Singularity is much more interesting than the Rapture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaSurfer
I don't really care to act against my nature anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky
Discovery channel is like introductory porn for INTPs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Minsky
I probably wouldn't go skydiving anyhow because my time is too valuable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8151147
Coding is fun, how the hell you can live without it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by E404
Sometimes the hardest part is knowing what I actually want and allowing myself to want it...
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Old 30th-September-2015, 09:30 PM   #13
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

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No the politics is, the students are just an irritant.

Being a professor is commonly mentioned, but listen here folks, you know the Big Problem with being one? You have to specialize.

Say I finished that PhD, right now I'd be in a handful of experts on the Higgs boson. Or say I got a PhD/Professor job in CS, now I'd be a world expert in Security, AI, or ...? That would be it.

Being a generalist is mighty enjoyable, and you don't get that opportunity as a professor.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 04:45 AM   #14
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Nobody likes to work. Jobs suck. I just found out that with eight more years of this work (or very similar), and continued minimal payments, my student loans will be written off.

I should be ecstatic. I'm working in my most advanced field of study, I'm making enough money to get by, and I'll be debt-free at 40. Semi-retired by 45, if I play it smart. Yet it feels like a prison sentence. The thought of eight more excruciating years sends me into a panic. I always labored under the delusion that this will all be over soon. That someday I'll find my place in the world of work. But, I've explored so much already and I'm always, always dissatisfied.

Its occurred to me, more than once, that all I'd have to do to escape the world of work is employ myself as a housewife, or a similar endenture, but I'm sure that would be equally unsatisfying.

No. I don't think we are good at this working thing. Most of the P-types and some of the Js suck at being happy with life as a drone. What, because we're unfit for this world, we should be exempt from its resposibilites? We should have to suffer through work, just like everyone else. Discontentment is no excuse. We're not that special.

On the otherhand, there's nothing to stop us from praying everyday for the collapse of civilization, which will free us all.

I'm in a weird mood today.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 05:27 AM   #15
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Had my first "real" "office" job (so not freelance doing similar work) this year and the most difficult part for me by far was dealing with the social situations, communication (or lack thereof) about work, the politics, everyone flaunting their workaholism like a badge of honor while all the work is awful because nobody is resting or using their damn brains. Lots of yelling and meltdowns. I white knuckled my way through just to say I did it and then bounced after 6 months.

I think INTPs either need to be doing a punch-in/punch-out sort of job that they do alone or working on stuff they are passionate about either at universities or in business. Agree with the comments about Fe driving career decision making and it not usually resulting in a good match for the inherent skillset.

I've been a degenerate and a freelancer to avoid working with other people and on strict schedules in the past but I do think that work is good for INTPs. As much as I hate it imposed structure keeps us moving forward and not evaporating into complete laziness. Although if I were to be in a position where I did not have to work I would probably choose to be a full-time student.

You guys might like this article:

Quote:
New-type depression--NTD--(also called modern-type) is not a classic depression. It does not respond to anti-depressant medications, and it is triggered by events in the workplace--usually criticism from superiors. Those who exhibit the symptoms--difficulty focusing at work, physical symptoms of stress, etc.--tend to be in their 20s and 30s.

With 26% of companies reporting NTD in their workforces, it is widely viewed as a threat to Corporate Japan.

Outside of work, the person with new-type depression continues their social life as before, even as they find themselves unable to go back to work. In other words, they do not suffer from generalized anxiety or anhedonia (inability to enjoy anything in life).

This leads older Japanese to dismiss the NTDs as lazy or spoiled, because the depression is often triggered by demands at work the young worker cannot meet.

Psychologists in Japan are struggling to understand and define new-type depression. Some feel it is a form of rebellion against a rigid society. Others believe it results from poor communication skills on the part of both the younger workers and their senior supervisors.

Why are poor communication skill suddenly an issue in hierarchical Japan? It turns out that Corporate Japan has adopted Western-style management techniques to cope with declining sales and profitability. Job security is no longer absolute in Corporate Japan, and high-level social skills are now required in the "New Economy."

This is also the case in America, where routine work that required only following orders has declined in favor of work that demands constant communication with work groups and and interaction with supervisors. This "New Economy" workplace places a premium on high-level verbal, written and social skills of the sort that females generally score higher on than males. (NTD does not appear to be gender-related, as both males and females experience NTD.)

The "New Economy" in Japan and the U.S. places great pressure on those with poor communication skills and who take their work seriously. Criticism or a failure to keep up pushes the anxiety-ridden worker into new-style depression.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 05:30 AM   #16
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

I think work environment is a significant factor in job satisfaction beyond the actual work you do. Are you challenged? Are you give the opportunity to own projects? Are the people you work with smart, competent, fun, etc. Those things go a very long way.

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Nobody likes to work. Jobs suck.
I like my job and I like working a shit ton, but I also get that for the purposes of this thread those details are mostly irrelevant.

Puny NPs.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 06:12 AM   #17
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

Learn to live without money. There are a number of ways to do this, one I recently employed was sponging off others, not the most honourable but effective. I have also met someone self sufficient (almost) who lives without money.

Poker is currently paying my rent and food bills whilst I job search. Whilst I could just stay at the casino and earn I am not saving any money, it's warped how I value money and anything I don't need to save isn't saved. My ego is inflated, hopefully this will subside soon.

@Blarr, what sorts of things are you investing in? Aside from your property, do you have any other assets?
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Old 1st-October-2015, 06:23 AM   #18
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

I wish I didn't have to.

Right now I'm getting paid to go to school and it is great. Schedule is fairly relaxed. Thinking about interesting technical stuff. Solving problems. This would probably be ideal if I could do it long term. Although having "assignments" is a pain in the ass, it does make me push forward faster than I probably would on my own.

I guess if I could get a job with similar characteristics...thinking about technical stuff, solving problems, relaxed schedule most of the time, then that would also be good. I imagine these kinds of jobs are few and far between.

Inquisitor: I was in a DoD intel position. And it sucked. I mean...maybe if you get lucky to get into certain areas it would be cool, but where I was....we were still managed by idiots who wanted shit done their way. Creativity was a talking point, but not really allowed. It really sucks morale being in that kind of environment.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 11:02 AM   #19
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

I hate work, but I like the me that works more than the me that doesn't. It's forcing me to slowly get my shit together.

Once my shit is sufficiently together, I may even pursue a change of career to something I could enjoy.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 11:16 AM   #20
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

You could always try freelance work in coding and/or design. That's what I do, and it suits me well, although it's a challenge to make ends-meet sometimes with how inconsistent work is. I think though, if I spent more time actually working, jobs might become more consistent :P

It seems like more and more remote jobs are available, which is great if you work better in your own space and on your own schedule. The thing I've noticed about remote is that you have to be able to self-motivate and keep track of project schedules, because after all there's no boss looking over your shoulder to remind you of your deadlines.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 12:13 PM   #21
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I guess there are always ways of living that doesn't require the normal 8-5 job. Some mentioned above.

I guess we're just living in a time where we have large societies which people easily feel detached from, and there isn't the same feel of reward and being part of a larger whole as you might have in smaller communities. If all goes well, hopefully automation will take over most of the menial jobs, leaving us a society where people work mainly to self realize. Perhaps entire cities will be pretty much run by themselves, maybe having a few volunteer positions of maintenance and checkups, or maybe that will be automated too.

There's always something to learn from a situation one is in. Though, obviously some circumstances are more preferably to be in and learn from than others. Where I live where any (fulltime) job will be able to provide you, having a menial 8-5 job isn't the worst fate after all. You can also choose to work less and still survive if you're not a big spender anyways. And it is possible to suck up information and knowledge even if it's not a field of interest. Observing how the system in the work place is built up, how people treat it, how people think about it and other people working with it, observing the quirks of the people working there themselves.

Also continuously trying to work more effectively or trying out new ways of doing things. Even in jobs where the tasks you do are few and restricted, there are sometimes small things you can do to improve your own effort. I also found a way to distance myself from the feel of time in a way where I find the work day to feel shorter, kinda.

And like Absurdity said, environment matters a lot.

Due to concentration issues and such, I guess I'll probably end up in a menial job. I think if I focused on how sucky it would be, it definitively would be so. And going around being depressed about it wouldn't help anything, so I might as well make the best out of it. I guess I used to feel bad about it, but now I've just accepted it.

At the very least as a working person I contribute to the growth of a society which will then be more able to develop in terms of technology and standards of living.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 12:14 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Helvete View Post
Learn to live without money. There are a number of ways to do this, one I recently employed was sponging off others, not the most honourable but effective. I have also met someone self sufficient (almost) who lives without money.

Poker is currently paying my rent and food bills whilst I job search. Whilst I could just stay at the casino and earn I am not saving any money, it's warped how I value money and anything I don't need to save isn't saved. My ego is inflated, hopefully this will subside soon.

@Blarr, what sorts of things are you investing in? Aside from your property, do you have any other assets?
Ah, yes. The poker life. I actually lived purely as a poker player for 2 years before my studies. It was great when it was both an intellectual challenge and a good source of income. However, it did eventually make me extremely lazy (both intellectually and otherwise). My idea of 'workday' was getting up 6PM and go to the casino and drink and play all night. But if one combines it with some intellectual/creative pursuit, and somehow finds the self-discipline for both, I have to say: I have never seen any better job for an INTP.

But I think it was an important experience for another reason. It entailed getting a perspective probably writers, artists and flaneurs also have: to look at life outside the narrative of 'how to do well within the confines of the system'. I remember especially one morning I was walking home after one of my 'workdays'. I was walking through the middle of the city, when everyone else was off to their day jobs. When one is walking in the opposite way, the whole thing looks so bizarre. People, with all their unique minds, talents and passions, are moving uniformly through the streets, off to perform tasks they only mildly care about (at best), only to cope, or even 'succeed'.

That was why I asked about a vision of an INTP in an "ideal world". Because I think it is possible to create such a world for oneself. Architect and Inquisitor are right, of course -- computer work is a good choice for an INTP. But this is still playing by the rules of the game. I think it is probable I will play by the rules myself, but I am often thinking that we do that out of lack of courage, rather than out of prudence.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 03:25 PM   #23
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At one point, vagabonding seemed like a real possibility to me, so I tried it out for roughly a week at a time on two separate occasions in LA. I found that if I were an Se type, it could actually work out; however, the days spent sitting in parks, walking around the city, laying on the sand by the beach, were hellishly long. For some, it is and would be paradise to live such a way. But I wasn't getting the kind of conceptual/informational stimulation the Intuitive mind needs like it needs oxygen. I don't think I can thrive without unlimited access to the internet.

I did meet some great people out there, and it was nice to always have just the one task for the day, which was usually to procure food. That lifestyle took me back into a hunter-gatherer mindset, it was quite interesting. But I learned that it's not something I would want to do long-term, and so if I have to work lame jobs in order to go on living the kind of lifestyle I know I need, I'm that much more willing to do it...

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I like my job and I like working a shit ton
Ew. Why? How? Wah-wah-wah-wee-wah?

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Originally Posted by Yellow View Post
Its occurred to me, more than once, that all I'd have to do to escape the world of work is employ myself as a housewife, or a similar endenture, but I'm sure that would be equally unsatisfying.
I've been thinking the same thing for a few years; I think it'd probably be the best path for me. It's more feasible than ever to become a househusband, what with the fruits of feminism and all. I can totally play the role of a 1950s housewife. I am physically attractive and have a pleasant personality, so on that level it's not hard to attract partners. Only problem is that struggling with Social Anxiety for the last several years has made it so that I hardly ever meet anyone new, especially these days, and I especially don't want to talk to people I'm attracted to...
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Old 1st-October-2015, 03:34 PM   #24
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No the politics is, the students are just an irritant.

Being a professor is commonly mentioned, but listen here folks, you know the Big Problem with being one? You have to specialize.

Say I finished that PhD, right now I'd be in a handful of experts on the Higgs boson. Or say I got a PhD/Professor job in CS, now I'd be a world expert in Security, AI, or ...? That would be it.

Being a generalist is mighty enjoyable, and you don't get that opportunity as a professor.
How is it possible to be a generalist when there are so many CS PhDs? If an interesting project pops up in a certain CS field, wouldn't the company just choose to hire loads of PhDs specialized in that particular field?

Don't get me wrong, the idea of being a generalist in software R&D sounds really cool, but I'm wondering how that's possible w/o the PhD? Most other fields don't seem to operate that way...Are there really that many jobs like yours out there?
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Old 1st-October-2015, 04:25 PM   #25
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Spoiler:
Huh. After graduate school in architecture and having some success as a licensed architect for a few years I thought I wanted to do medical/ dental school. So I did all the prereqs and aced the admissions test (99th percentile) and got in. Towards the end of the first year a number of things coalesced and bottom line I realized I was headed down the wrong path. Voluntarily dropped out.

My father and his father are/ were physicians.

For me, when I think about the MBTI and apply it to the physicians that I have known as well as the med students I became familiar with, INTPs are possibly non existent. Or at least if there is 1 or 2 that particular INTP has figured out how to blend in so well they aren't even themselves.

One of the reasons that I left is the medical school curriculum itself and the way its applied was so extroverted and sensory, feelings and judgement dominant I honestly was finding myself increasingly alienated from myself.

In theory the med school curriculum and application shouldn't be so ESFJ and should be amenable to the INTP mind but my goodness it just wasn't in my experience. It was horrendous.

There were other reasons I abandoned that cause though. For example, due to my relatively additional 15 years of life experience there was a lot of childish politics that I found nauseating and distracting (lectures and such on inane things like don't drink and drive and don't abuse the corpses in anatomy lab), plus at the rate the student loans were piling up I wasn't going to have that 15 years at the end of my career to actually save and invest any money of my own.

Looking back, that 4 year period of my life/ odyssey was directly a result of my INTPness and the search for self and life purpose so many INTPs struggle with. I don't regret it, necessarily, but I should've realized my INTPness earlier and not been trying so hard to redefine myself and my life purpose.

IMO and in my experience, so many INTPs would benefit immensely from understanding their nature as early as possible and relating it inextricably to their academic/ professional pursuits (as Inquisitor has so eloquently put it in his post I've quoted).

And my signature line -the link to the INTP Experience- is a helpful starting point for the INTP who is just starting to figure themselves out.

If I were to do it over again I'd get a PhD in one of my handful of pet interests that won't let me sleep at night I'm so fascinated. Then I'd become a professor. Teaching classes to a bunch of inebriated, distracted frat kids 5 days a week 4 times a day for 35 years would probably be the most distasteful aspect of that career...not bad all things considered.
Wow DGH. Very similar experience there.

Having physician parents + Fe really makes Medicine such an alluring field...It did a number on me, and actually still does if I just think "medicine...ahhh" It evokes these feelings I have no idea what to do with. They just come out of nowhere, and then I find myself in this emotional grip. But then
I start thinking about the nitty gritty of actually practicing medicine and what that would entail...and I realize I would really dislike talking to patients all day long. And I know from my experience as a teacher that talking to people all day long really wears me out. But then Fe reasserts and I start thinking what if I were in a specialty that wasn't so clinical? After that, I realize again (Ti) that I don't have much intellectual interest in approaching health problems from the perspective of western medicine, and I'd much rather do it with Ayurveda. I actually toyed with the idea of going to India to get a Bachelor's in Ayurvedic Medicine & Surgery (Fe again), but then I realized that I would run into the same problems as with western medicine because I would be talking to patients all day...

So it goes back and forth like that. Even now, if I hear about someone going overseas to work in some impoverished area (Doctors Without Borders), it really triggers that emotional response (Fe). It's both fascinating and maddening all at the same time.

Actually, here's some interesting info I was able to dig up on Physicians/MBTI. Reckful, if you've done any research in this direction, I'd be interested to see what you came up with...

Click image for larger version

Name:	MBTI Executives.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	61.5 KB
ID:	2609

Click image for larger version

Name:	Physician MBTI.jpg
Views:	13
Size:	62.6 KB
ID:	2610
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Old 1st-October-2015, 04:42 PM   #26
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

On medicine/doctors:
The people I know who've entered the field report that doctors are idiots, misanthropes or psychopaths. The idea that it's all ESFJs (DrGregoryHouse's assessment) doesn't fit the majority of the picture I got. However, I also heard multiple times that it was extremely detail-oriented and very finicky - so perhaps not a good match for INTPs.

*EDIT
Ooh, interesting: Inquisitor's stats support what I've heard. Ts represented more than Fs, and specifically TJs (ambitious climbers). Interestingly high number of ENTJs too - I wonder how highly that's correlated with psychopathy.

------------------

I think writing or delivering educational material in concentrated bursts can be a good fit for Ti. Holy shit spoilers:

Spoiler:
Mastering fields and turning that mastery into logically-sequenced, easily grasped material for others is excellent for both the Ti-Fe loop (breaking fields down into their simplest component parts, mastering the relationships between those parts, and then regrouping them into the form most efficient for absorption... for the world) and the Ne-Si loop (presenting concepts holistically and creatively, and having command of facts to ground claims, thus linking the gist to the bottom-up evidence).

In short, teaching in a 'pure' sense. I'll note that most teaching is too politically encumbered and interaction-intensive for most INTPs, and leads even the best-intentioned to burn out. However, an occasional dose of that is absolutely necessary to field-test your knowledge and recalibrate your delivery for maximum impact. There's endless learning involved. The social component/having to adjust for others' learning styles as well as honing interpersonal chemistry for additional student engagement (essentially incorporating psychology) provides the necessary breadth Archie often mentions, and the mastery required provides the depth.

I think Ti has the desire to compress information into its purest/most efficient form and Fe has the desire to interact with people and make an observable difference, using emotion-based rituals. Teaching fulfills both - the opportunity to deliver understanding through ritual-created channels of engagement - and I think writing material would be a Fe-lite version of that, for those who can't abide too much peopleing.

It does require the desire to get over your own biases and shortcomings though. If you're willing to accept that the buck stops with you, willing to accept your impatience with others' understanding as a sign that you haven't refined your material/delivery enough rather than as a sign of their stupidity, then it can be a rewarding path. It's also a great source of insight porn, on the occasions when you can get over your own human shittiness and start to interact with people as a system you're trying to game. What buttons do you need to press to create an opening you can pour your information into? Have you even seen this particular model of human before - do you know what their buttons are? Why does this mode of delivery make the learning system close, whereas that apparently dumber one leads to much greater results?

It's a great way to use Fe and learn the knowledge mature Fs (not all) wield intuitively, while also doing what our minds naturally love to do (break down information and turn it into models). When you start treating your reactions to your work, to other people, to everything as information, there's learning opportunity everywhere.

(I'll also note though that caring and some emotional engagement on your part helps - viewing people primarily as part of a system you're attempting to control can easily lead to burnout on life. Generally not a healthy way to be.)

----------------

Theoretically, activities which engage the weaker functions while focused primarily on the stronger ones should be the path to greater maturity and self-mastery. Perhaps the call of the inferior (if there is such a thing) shouldn't be seen as a siren. As long as you learn to approach the attractive field with your dominant, by using it to process the information gleaned from your inferior (rather than becoming swept up in it), you should learn more than you would focusing solely on the dominant.

-----------------

It can be exhausting. Operating optimally at all times is impossible. Writing guides or textbooks could be good.

There's also the problem of knowing how you need to act to achieve the effect you want in others, and eventually feeling burnt out from having to put on an act, even if you're getting the results. I do still see opportunity for growth there - why is it tiring, what in *you* needs to be recalibrated, what is misunderstood in yourself - but I expect there is a ceiling at some point.


Shit, haven't answered the OP.
Spoiler:
No idea if we should have jobs. Structure is good for us, though it can also be suffocating and depressing. I've noticed INTPs have a tendency towards elitism and self-pity. Lots of people struggle; lots of people don't want to work. Maybe asking exactly why we feel entitled to something better is a useful line of inquiry. It could be alerting us to look into certain feelings and beliefs about life/self. (Not judging - what's behind these feelings can be complex, and require some work to undo in order to start running your ship as it's really meant to run.)


Should be noted that commitment/specialisation is a path in itself. It may look boring from the outside but there are things you learn in there you wouldn't learn otherwise.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 04:44 PM   #27
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Inquisitor: I was in a DoD intel position. And it sucked. I mean...maybe if you get lucky to get into certain areas it would be cool, but where I was....we were still managed by idiots who wanted shit done their way. Creativity was a talking point, but not really allowed. It really sucks morale being in that kind of environment.
Hmm...I always thought DoD paid people (specifically PhDs) to do research in areas that might not ever see the light of day, but they prefer to have the research done just in case...For example, no one may be currently interested in a local region/culture/language/religious sect, but suddenly some whackjob bombs us and lo and behold, he's got strong ties to the region you've spent your whole life researching and suddenly everyone's in your shit trying to know as much as possible about it...I could potentially see that kind of work as being right up the INTP alley, but like I said, the only problem is uber-specialization...What kind of work did you do at DoD?
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Old 1st-October-2015, 04:54 PM   #28
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It can be exhausting. Writing guides or textbooks could be good.
Not to minimize what you wrote in that spoiler. In theory it's spot on, and I did derive enjoyment from the things you mentioned.

That said, in practice teaching is exhausting. That was my experience. I would enjoy it for the first couple hours, then after that, I would want it to end. Plus as Jung said about the introverted thinking type:

Quote:
He is a poor teacher, because while teaching his thought is engaged with the actual material, and will not be satisfied with its mere presentation.
That rings exactly true for me. I was primarily engaged with the material, and I gave little thought to how I presented it, which is the most important part of teaching. I hated having to prepare lesson plans, and I used powerpoints that came with the textbook as opposed to writing my own.

Writing textbooks, if that's your only job, could be a good gig, but again, there is that element of presentation that is still there...
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Old 1st-October-2015, 04:58 PM   #29
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I agree with you - it *is* exhausting! But I suppose I'm interested in a particular kind of growth. I know that in my exhaustion I'm missing some of the picture, and I'm driven to find out what, and why, and use it to improve results. It engages me and it has for years (I teach for a living).

Totally agree about being engaged primarily with the material too. Major weak point for me... but then that's true in real life too. If it's not achieving results, then it's something which should be put under the microscope and refined, because it means something is wrong with my understanding. Not of the material necessarily, but of the world.

[Of course it's easy to talk the talk, not so easy to walk the walk ]

Edited to add:
I should make it clear that teaching drives me up the fucking wall at times. Immensely frustrating work. But then, it does raise fascinating questions, such as: Why are some people completely unable to understand the most basic instruction, despite it being repeated and rephrased multiple times at various speeds? I mean, this is actually a genuinely interesting question, once you get past the initial hulk-smashing phase. What kind of mind produces a response so utterly at odds with reason?

That takes you into all kinds of interesting learning disability territory, social interaction theory, conversational/listening styles, etc. It also leads inevitably to self-reflection as you realise you have on occasion been this mind-numbingly useless in relation to other people too (and see more and more how fluid roles and identity really are). If you're interested in this kind of exploration, the very fact that it produces such strong emotional reactions is what drives Ti forward. There's a lot to learn, a lot of good material on the fields you'll find yourself stumbling into.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 05:04 PM   #30
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Wow DGH. Very similar experience there.

Having physician parents + Fe really makes Medicine such an alluring field...It did a number on me, and actually still does if I just think "medicine...ahhh" It evokes these feelings I have no idea what to do with. They just come out of nowhere, and then I find myself in this emotional grip. But then
I start thinking about the nitty gritty of actually practicing medicine and what that would entail...and I realize I would really dislike talking to patients all day long. And I know from my experience as a teacher that talking to people all day long really wears me out. But then Fe reasserts and I start thinking what if I were in a specialty that wasn't so clinical? After that, I realize again (Ti) that I don't have much intellectual interest in approaching health problems from the perspective of western medicine, and I'd much rather do it with Ayurveda. I actually toyed with the idea of going to India to get a Bachelor's in Ayurvedic Medicine & Surgery (Fe again), but then I realized that I would run into the same problems as with western medicine because I would be talking to patients all day...

So it goes back and forth like that. Even now, if I hear about someone going overseas to work in some impoverished area (Doctors Without Borders), it really triggers that emotional response (Fe). It's both fascinating and maddening all at the same time.

Actually, here's some interesting info I was able to dig up on Physicians/MBTI. Reckful, if you've done any research in this direction, I'd be interested to see what you came up with...

Attachment 2609

Attachment 2610
Interesting!
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Old 1st-October-2015, 05:11 PM   #31
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On medicine/doctors:
...The idea that it's all ESFJs (DrGregoryHouse's assessment) doesn't fit the majority of the picture I got. However, I also heard multiple times that it was extremely detail-oriented and very finicky - so perhaps not a good match for INTPs....
I must have miscommunicated I'm sorry. I didn't mean to leave anyone reading my post with the impression that I think all are ESFJs.

What I think I said and what I was trying to say is that I was surprised at the reality I encountered which is that the E, S, F, and J components were represented to a much greater degree than what I had been expecting. It didn't mesh with my idealized expectation of med school.

I had gone in thinking there would be far less egoism, extroversion, sensing, feeling, and judgement (of the hasty variety) than what I actually encountered on a daily basis.

I had thought that the daily focus in med school would have naturally meshed with the priorities and thought processes of an INTP to a much greater degree than they actually did.

My expectation had been to feel "at home".

In the end I was just as alienated and ultimately uncomfortable as ever.

Dealing with people who had certifiably higher IQs was a wonderful perk though. I definitely enjoyed this while it lasted.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 05:20 PM   #32
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Ooh wait. I have to add this:

Live teaching is like a game, where you test your understanding against the environment. It can be addictive, because there's a very strong stimulus-response pattern happening. You press a button, you get to see whether it works. The answers to your self-testing often occur in real time, right in the moment, so readjustment and learning on the fly can happen fast (this feeds Ne too I think). You're forced to dig around for analogies, you're forced to learn novel ways to represent concepts that a particularly difficult student can't learn the conventional way because of giant holes in their processing ability, etc.

And as I mentioned, learning about how the social world works through self-reflection, and realising on a fundamental level that roles are masks (and therefore that all role-reliant models are broken). I think all students should experience being teachers/masters. Parent-child, adult-youngster, teacher-student, master-slave, boss-employee, dominant-submissive etc - ideally everyone gets to experience both sides of every coin there is, because otherwise the understanding and models we crave are incomplete.

OK, I really should stop now. Apparently I still haven't taught myself how to sleep at a reasonable hour. That's like Grandmaster Wizard level of life.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 07:04 PM   #33
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I agree with you - it *is* exhausting! But I suppose I'm interested in a particular kind of growth. I know that in my exhaustion I'm missing some of the picture, and I'm driven to find out what, and why, and use it to improve results. It engages me and it has for years (I teach for a living).

Totally agree about being engaged primarily with the material too. Major weak point for me... but then that's true in real life too. If it's not achieving results, then it's something which should be put under the microscope and refined, because it means something is wrong with my understanding. Not of the material necessarily, but of the world.

[Of course it's easy to talk the talk, not so easy to walk the walk ]

Edited to add:
I should make it clear that teaching drives me up the fucking wall at times. Immensely frustrating work. But then, it does raise fascinating questions, such as: Why are some people completely unable to understand the most basic instruction, despite it being repeated and rephrased multiple times at various speeds? I mean, this is actually a genuinely interesting question, once you get past the initial hulk-smashing phase. What kind of mind produces a response so utterly at odds with reason?

That takes you into all kinds of interesting learning disability territory, social interaction theory, conversational/listening styles, etc. It also leads inevitably to self-reflection as you realise you have on occasion been this mind-numbingly useless in relation to other people too (and see more and more how fluid roles and identity really are). If you're interested in this kind of exploration, the very fact that it produces such strong emotional reactions is what drives Ti forward. There's a lot to learn, a lot of good material on the fields you'll find yourself stumbling into.
What do you teach?
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Old 1st-October-2015, 07:35 PM   #34
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Interesting!
Yeah, I especially found this table to be quite fascinating:

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Views:	10
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What do all executives have in common: Te in either the dom or aux position. ENTJs are 5.2X more numerous in executive positions than in the general population and perhaps surprisingly, INTJs are 7.5X more numerous. Given the fact that they are more career-oriented though, it's perhaps inevitable that they end taking leadership roles, even if they would prefer not to engage with other people so much due to the introversion.

Leadership is like a mosquito repellent to INTPs apparently...

I would like to find an authoritative equivalent table for physicians and type.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 07:35 PM   #35
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@Blarr, what sorts of things are you investing in? Aside from your property, do you have any other assets?
I have a collection of pre war stamps, coins and collectible card games worth several salaries, their prices steadily increase, some magic the gathering cards are very dynamic and can offer nice profit, some cards I obtained tripled or grew even more in value over 5 years.

The upside is that buying individual cards or coins is a small thing, the downside is I need to know which mechanics or cards will be sought after now and tomorrow (this isn't as much of a downside since I'm a casual player and on top of the market goings-on), there's also this risk they'll reprint some of them, so far didn't happen to me and usually there are cues to watch out for. Some cards are worth hundreds of $ and the game has a long tradition and not as likely to disappear in a poof of smoke.

Other than my property and small collectibles I'm saving all I can and managing my finances for the next buy and everything I look out for has a "long term" label on it.
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Old 1st-October-2015, 08:09 PM   #36
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...Leadership is like a mosquito repellent to INTPs apparently...
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Old 2nd-October-2015, 02:28 AM   #37
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My snap-caster mages just keep going up
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Old 2nd-October-2015, 02:58 AM   #38
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Music, both practical and theory. I've also taught a little English, though not extensively.

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Ah, I see. Yeah, that's what I've heard... bit of a miserable environment.
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Old 2nd-October-2015, 11:29 PM   #39
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You don't get paid for doing something you'd be doing anyway. No dice. I'm 33 and in college for the, like, third time. I get it, now. Go to college to get a job, not to learn. You can do what you like on your own time. After you pay rent and car insurance. That's how the cookie crumbles.
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 10:33 AM   #40
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

The questioned presented in the OP is bit of a.. er.. well look at it this way: should ENTPs have jobs? Should INTJ's have jobs? ENTJs?

At the end of the day you are a human being with needs, whether that be food, shelter, entertainment, leisure, and when you're married, parental, taking care of children, etc so on. For all of these things we need cash, plain and simple. So yes, we need work.

I've worked in several language institutions and tutored privately, while doing odd jobs like guarding private property as a night guard. Although these haven't exactly the highest pay, I tend to reflect back and see what I've learned during my time there: how a company is run, how the money is flown through the system, how relationships between the staff is handled and preserved, how the leader of the business interacts with clients, how security is implemented and so on. It's not really the satisfaction of working there that made me enjoy the job, it was the process in which I've come to understand how a business was run. Sometimes you begin to understand the corruption that goes behind an industry as well. But I think the most important thing you get from work is understanding people. I think I've become increasingly more patient by working in companies (as opposed to freelancing/tutoring). There are a lot of perspectives that are in play when a conflict unfolds, and though it can be stressing, it usually is educational.

I also was in the army for two years and learned a lot from being there as well, though I guess it's somewhat irrelevant since we're talking about work in society. It's interesting how perspectives change when you're the one with the weapon.

If I were to make a parallel with the type of work I did in the army (yes, we have work to do in the army) I'd say it's like running a McDonalds. You assign work and manage the logistics, thinking about supply and timing. Commanding clearly is another important skill to have too, as well as understanding the hierarchy within the team so that commands are issued more smoothly, and so on. Seeing the 'big picture' while working is extremely helpful later on, it helps you understand what type of stress the managers are having.

Btw having a "PhD" in Computer Science is so.. I dunno, it's such a misnomer to me.
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 12:58 PM   #41
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

There's think-tanks as an option, I suppose?

If someone surveys the vocations available and sees nothing they like, they have to identify what they are passionate about and identify some practice or skill related to it that will earn them a revenue, an outlet for their passions, and thus a means of development. Or plan accordingly so they will have more time doing what they want.

If people here are honestly that intuitive, it should be a problem that can eventually be addressed.

It's more a question of INTP procrastination. If someone doesn't put the effort into the intended future they desire, they can bitch and moan about how hard done by they are ad infinitum, but their situation will remain exactly the same as before.
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 01:04 PM   #42
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No the politics is, the students are just an irritant.

Being a professor is commonly mentioned, but listen here folks, you know the Big Problem with being one? You have to specialize.

Say I finished that PhD, right now I'd be in a handful of experts on the Higgs boson. Or say I got a PhD/Professor job in CS, now I'd be a world expert in Security, AI, or ...? That would be it.

Being a generalist is mighty enjoyable, and you don't get that opportunity as a professor.
Agreed. I was a humanities/arts major, was in a very favourable position to do a PhD, and considered it for a while. But it would mean being focused on a very specific problem in a very specific niche of a field for 4 years, and exhaustively researching around that problem/ niche, which I find to be non-conducive to how my intelligence works.

I find generalists, those who see bigger patterns and can appreciate the consilience between things, to be intelligent and academics to be "specialists" who aren't by necessity that interesting. Humanities wise, there's also the concern that you will spend 4 years acquiring skills that only apply to a very specific academic context, which it is incredibly difficult to get work in. So chances are you'll come out of it with no work, and having to start your life from scratch.

There are pros, just have to weigh it all up as an option, and consider if there are better ones.
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 01:52 PM   #43
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You don't get paid for doing something you'd be doing anyway. No dice. I'm 33 and in college for the, like, third time. I get it, now. Go to college to get a job, not to learn. You can do what you like on your own time. After you pay rent and car insurance. That's how the cookie crumbles.
Oh college is definitely a learning experience, but I agree it is tilted more for a career. Which is why you want to pick a career that needs you to be a life long learner, such as any STEM career. The problem is that college is so condensed and focused that I found it hard to really learn whatever subject. It was a race to learn it well enough to pass the tests and do the homework.

At the time I hated that, but now I realize that it's necessary. They're having to compress a lot of education into four short years. All college courses are basically survey courses.
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 02:15 PM   #44
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

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Should INTPs have jobs?
should
[shoo d]

auxiliary verb
1. simple past tense of shall.
2. (used to express condition):
Were he to arrive, I should be pleased.
3. must; ought (used to indicate duty, propriety, or expediency):
You should not do that.
4. would (used to make a statement less direct or blunt):
I should think you would apologize.
I'm not sure which sense of "should" you're using. I'm guessing the third definition here. But that doesn't make sense to me. This would suggest a rights/duties relationship in which case the INTPs would have a right not to work and everyone else would have a duty to support INTPs, but that seems grossly unfair.

Maybe you mean something like "I wish we lived in some other world, where people like INTPs could just sit around and think of stuff and have their needs attended to by others." I don't know, that seems pretty lame too.

Sometimes I like to actually do stuff.
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 02:17 PM   #45
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The questioned presented in the OP is bit of a.. er.. well look at it this way: should ENTPs have jobs? Should INTJ's have jobs? ENTJs?

At the end of the day you are a human being with needs, whether that be food, shelter, entertainment, leisure, and when you're married, parental, taking care of children, etc so on. For all of these things we need cash, plain and simple. So yes, we need work.
Why is it given that the best option for each type is to have a job?

Other than that I get a very strange sensation when considering the fact that you cannot even conceive of a reality outside "get a job, get married, buy a house (on a decently sized mortgage), make kids, retire, die". Is this a result of having had jobs?
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 02:54 PM   #46
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Why is it given that the best option for each type is to have a job?

Other than that I get a very strange sensation when considering the fact that you cannot even conceive of a reality outside "get a job, get married, buy a house (on a decently sized mortgage), make kids, retire, die". Is this a result of having had jobs?
How are you going to pay for the food you are eating? How are you going to pay for the internet you're using?

The reality without a job is freeloading or homelessness, your pick.

Being single is fine though, I'm not sure where you're getting the 'metanarrative for life' idea from.
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 03:42 PM   #47
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At one point, vagabonding seemed like a real possibility to me, so I tried it out for roughly a week at a time on two separate occasions in LA. I found that if I were an Se type, it could actually work out; however, the days spent sitting in parks, walking around the city, laying on the sand by the beach, were hellishly long. For some, it is and would be paradise to live such a way. But I wasn't getting the kind of conceptual/informational stimulation the Intuitive mind needs like it needs oxygen. I don't think I can thrive without unlimited access to the internet.

I did meet some great people out there, and it was nice to always have just the one task for the day, which was usually to procure food. That lifestyle took me back into a hunter-gatherer mindset, it was quite interesting. But I learned that it's not something I would want to do long-term, and so if I have to work lame jobs in order to go on living the kind of lifestyle I know I need, I'm that much more willing to do it...

I've been thinking the same thing for a few years; I think it'd probably be the best path for me. It's more feasible than ever to become a househusband, what with the fruits of feminism and all. I can totally play the role of a 1950s housewife. I am physically attractive and have a pleasant personality, so on that level it's not hard to attract partners. Only problem is that struggling with Social Anxiety for the last several years has made it so that I hardly ever meet anyone new, especially these days, and I especially don't want to talk to people I'm attracted to...

Tell me about it, the days drag on for years... This is why there is such a big problem with drug use in homeless communities. Sure some people become homeless because of drug use but those that are homeless have so much time on their hands drugs are the only thing that makes it interesting. It's isn't just the intuitive mind.

To your second point I would totally be a house husband and I have all the qualifications. So if any guys or girls out there are interested let me know. You have to be quick though, if I reach 30 and am not in a relationship I'm already booked to be a house "husband" taking care of cats.
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 03:50 PM   #48
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

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How are you going to pay for the food you are eating? How are you going to pay for the internet you're using?

The reality without a job is freeloading or homelessness, your pick.

Being single is fine though, I'm not sure where you're getting the 'metanarrative for life' idea from.
There are millions of ways to make money other than being employed. One of which I did myself, as I have written earlier in this thread. Ironically, I will probably have to be "employed" for about 7 years before I am at the same level of income as I was at as a flaneur.
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 04:33 PM   #49
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Default Re: Should INTPs have jobs?

I can't see myself as a professional poker player beyond my thirties. I guess it would work for some people, but I'm skeptical as whether they'll be able to life that lifestyle indefinitely. I would must rather go into a store of any type and learn how that particular industry works and meet some people on the way.

In terms of probability it would seem like a very unreasonable thing to do also, but that's also one of the things about life isn't it? If you have passion for it, see where it takes you. But then again that just might be the idealistic inside yourself pushing you, with no rational basis. Simply put- it is more irrational than other venues which you might venture into.

There 'are' millions of ways you can earn money, sure, but is it financially stable in the long run? Will it pay bills? Will it pay for your food? I mean there are basic essentials that sort of have to be met. You can't rely on your knowledge of a game to secure you your food.
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Old 3rd-October-2015, 06:01 PM   #50
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Interesting interview by possible INTP regarding nature of work. He did his PhD in Political Philosophy couldn't land a teaching job then tried working in a think tank, finally ended being a motorcycle mechanic:
http://www.cc.com/video-clips/neths8...tthew-crawford
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