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Old 23rd-February-2017, 03:03 AM   #1
Artsu Tharaz
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Default Appearance of Function Order

So we know there are 4 functions - 2 rational, T and F, and 2 irrational, S and N. So, opposing functions share a common attitude to rationality.

Then, they appear in a person in an order:

dominant -> auxiliary -> tertiary -> inferior (-> others?)

With auxiliary opposing dominant in extroversion and rationality, tertiary opposing dominant in rationality, and inferior being the directly opposing function to the dominant.

e.g. INTP = Ti -> Ne -> Si -> Fe etc.

But what does this "function order" mean exactly? I would say it means that when cognition begins from its default position, it first passes through one function, and then follows a sequence, stopping potentially at any point but tending to attempt to reach the inferior.

Now, this order can be when one is writing, for example, a forum post or any piece of writing. Suppose for example, that the post is made of 4 sentences or sections - then often their content and mode of expression will indicate the functions relevant for the function order of a particular type. Often introverted functions will use I, feeling functions will use value/emotion based terms, and so on.

I believe that this function order can be seen on many other scales, in a fractal kind of nature. For example, they appear in a person's development, where the tertiary develops generally in adolescence to early adulthood, and by adulthood the inferior is developing. It may occur across a person's day, where they wake up sticking to their dominant function, and a few hours later move to the auxiliary until by evening the inferior is appearing (assuming the person has developed their inferior by that point - otherwise it will likely be what they have last developed).

I am getting better at identifying function order through posts, although I've not quite yet been able to properly differentiate the functions in many cases, however I've gotten results that I am pleased with so far.

So, what are your views on function order and have you been able to see it manifest in yourself and others? Would you agree that the general pattern of a person's development seems to fall under stages associated with particular functions?

A final thing to mention: I do not believe that a person utilises only a single function order, rather we utilise multiple, perhaps even being capable of all 16 (although still likely tending to stick to a few). For example, I suspect that when a person has a particular type, then the type which shares the same first 3 letters but differs on P/J will not trail too far behind the primary type in terms of its use of functions (and so, once it has reached the inferior stage, we are able to utilise all 8 functions), and there will be other strong types depending on the individual although correlating with each other in certain ways.

For myself, my strong types would be INFJ (primary) as well as INFP, ESTJ, ISFJ, ENFJ (INFP especially) or something like that. So I utilise INFJ up to inferior, but with ESTJ I use it up to tertiary, or so it seems.

I can explain further if anyone has any questions.
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Old 23rd-February-2017, 07:01 AM   #2
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

You will be resistant to use functions you are unfamiliar with. If you talk to yourself all the time in your head and that is how you think it will be hard to calm the mind and think without words or images. Because that is not really thinking that is just the void. An active mind will want to remain active, a quiet mind will want to remain quiet. So if you are introverted you will always go within and extroverted will alway go outside itself.

The function order is primarily Dominant and Auxiliary because Tertiary and inferior are resisted. Aux and Dom are both Judgment and Perception so that will be the most active together. The next is the Dom Tertiary loop. Inferior is least active, requires effort to focus on it. Because inferior functions ae not naturaly paired with dom functions. Dom is P or J. J is paired with P not J with J or P with P. I am Ni som Ni does not work with Se, Ni works with Fe or Ti. For me to be completely involved with Se I need to pair it with Fe or Ti and that is hard to do. The reason for the function order is because of the JP pairings.
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Old 3rd-March-2017, 12:58 AM   #3
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

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Originally Posted by Animekitty View Post
You will be resistant to use functions you are unfamiliar with. If you talk to yourself all the time in your head and that is how you think it will be hard to calm the mind and think without words or images. Because that is not really thinking that is just the void. An active mind will want to remain active, a quiet mind will want to remain quiet. So if you are introverted you will always go within and extroverted will alway go outside itself.

The function order is primarily Dominant and Auxiliary because Tertiary and inferior are resisted. Aux and Dom are both Judgment and Perception so that will be the most active together. The next is the Dom Tertiary loop. Inferior is least active, requires effort to focus on it. Because inferior functions ae not naturaly paired with dom functions. Dom is P or J. J is paired with P not J with J or P with P. I am Ni som Ni does not work with Se, Ni works with Fe or Ti. For me to be completely involved with Se I need to pair it with Fe or Ti and that is hard to do. The reason for the function order is because of the JP pairings.
I think that I have a decent enough grasp of all 8 functions, and not because I'm super special but because it's typical to once you reach adulthood.

So I use Se as an inferior function, so it's weak and is used after other functions, but I still use it much better than a few years ago. And I use Te and Fi because I have secondary ESTJ and INFP style, and Si comes through ESTJ and ISFJ.

Function order can stop at auxiliary, or it can keep going to inferior. Generally, it goes past the dominant so that the post will be balanced (I can identify these functions through forum posts) and if it goes to the inferior then the post will be concluded.

I considered that I may have been seeing something that isn't there, but I can only see it stronger and stronger. I saw someone and thought they were ENTJ, but I read some stuff they had written (not knowing that they had written it) and the order went Ni Te Fi Se so I knew they were INTJ.

I'm sure if I were to demonstrate what I mean, then people would show more interest. I might demonstrate using my own posts as examples.

For function pairings: Auburn speaks of modes, like someone might be ISTJ-Fi which would probably be similar to a loop. A loop (dom/ter) is basically skipping over the auxiliary, i.e. giving it consideration but not as much as the tertiary, and then without inferior function at the end to complete things. So, I feel that if I pay attention to the environment (mindfulness) then I am entering a Se mode, albeit quite passive compared to the activity levels of a dom Se user.

Typically to activate Se for an INFJ: start with information which is seen through Ni, then judge it externally with Feeling, then judge it internally with Thinking, then conclude with a statement of definiteness "this is how it is" for Se.

I'll provide examples when I get around to it. Trust me, it's good.
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Old 3rd-March-2017, 01:09 AM   #4
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

First post for post analysis by function order:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz
I do feel a bit stuck lately... not a lot going for me riight at the moment, however I have high hopes for the not too distant future and believe that things are going to turn around.

It sucks being stuck... it's like there's less pleasure at the time and it seems none is being gained for the future. I wouldn't say that's true though - getting out of a low period is equally bit important as what happens when things are going well. It's just that it's hard to see what is good in life while in that state.
=

Quote:
I do feel a bit stuck lately... not a lot going for me riight at the moment, however I have high hopes for the not too distant future and believe that things are going to turn around.
Ni - speaks subjectively, including use of "I", speaks of the future and how things will change

Quote:
It sucks being stuck... it's like there's less pleasure at the time and it seems none is being gained for the future.
Fe - does seem a bit subjective, but is ultimately trying to be objective by looking at things in a way anyone who has experienced it can see. Uses feeling terms such as "it sucks" and "pleasure"

Quote:
I wouldn't say that's true though - getting out of a low period is equally bit important as what happens when things are going well.
Ti - the "however" to Fe - it still references what the Fe was referencing, but internally when I wrote this I was thinking of a logical principle that showed me that what I wrote there was true. So it's my own subjective logic.

Quote:
It's just that it's hard to see what is good in life while in that state.
Se - here I conclude with the inferior function by noting what the reality of the situation is, referincing seeing the world and the good life (note that it still shows elements of the dominant function, which references the subjective viewpoint)
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Old 24th-March-2017, 12:54 AM   #5
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

Reiterating the method:

Any given sentence can essentially be mapped to a cognitive function, so when doing a function analysis:

- look at the first section of the text, and attempt to map it to a function. There are very reliable and simple ways that exist of doing this, but in lieu of this, just draw upon all the different things you know of a function, be creative

- then, look for a shift in tone in the text: this will mark the shift from one cognitive function to another, and will represent the next function in the person's stack.

- repeat the first 2 steps until the text has been fully analysed, or a function order has manifested

Note: people show the cognition of multiple types, so if you can analyse a piece of text as fitting a function order, it's not necessarily the person's actual type, but rather the mode they were in when writing it.

Generally, the person's best work, and the most used function order, will be done through the primary type. This is the case of authors, and I've had a lot of success over the past week or 2 in identifying what type a given author is.

I hope to make a list of many authors' types as analysed by this method; so far I've done the analysis on about 20 authors, but few of them are well known.

[note: this post portrays an ESTJ function order]
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Old 24th-March-2017, 07:25 PM   #6
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz View Post
But what does this "function order" mean exactly? I would say it means that when cognition begins from its default position, it first passes through one function, and then follows a sequence, stopping potentially at any point but tending to attempt to reach the inferior.
Logical, but probably not exactly correct. For one the definition of the function order has changed over time and interpretation, so you'd have to decide if you really have the right order. Secondly, you have to define what a function is first. Thirdly, you'd have to account for individual differences, that is clearly some INTP's 'run' more Ne than others (entertainer INTP's do this in particular), so is the order the functions are 'used' in your nomenclature canonical, or can it be altered?

If you consult Dario Nardi's work in this, in fact he sees that predominantly INTP's use the F3, F4 and C3 regions of the brain the most. These are "Deductive Analyst, Expert Classifier and Factual Storekeeper." You don't need the definitions of these terms to see they are Ti and Si, which indicates a usage model of Ti-Si-Ne-Fe perhaps.

On Ne he observed that when brainstorming Ne dominants and auxiliaries had 'Christmas Tree" brains, which is all the regions light up asynchronously, which triggers when the person is indeed brainstorming something. So this is some kind of meta function perhaps. Likewise Ni uses all the regions of the brain but instead it is synchronous. He calls it the 'zen state'.
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Old 25th-March-2017, 03:45 AM   #7
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Logical, but probably not exactly correct. For one the definition of the function order has changed over time and interpretation, so you'd have to decide if you really have the right order. Secondly, you have to define what a function is first. Thirdly, you'd have to account for individual differences, that is clearly some INTP's 'run' more Ne than others (entertainer INTP's do this in particular), so is the order the functions are 'used' in your nomenclature canonical, or can it be altered?

If you consult Dario Nardi's work in this, in fact he sees that predominantly INTP's use the F3, F4 and C3 regions of the brain the most. These are "Deductive Analyst, Expert Classifier and Factual Storekeeper." You don't need the definitions of these terms to see they are Ti and Si, which indicates a usage model of Ti-Si-Ne-Fe perhaps.

On Ne he observed that when brainstorming Ne dominants and auxiliaries had 'Christmas Tree" brains, which is all the regions light up asynchronously, which triggers when the person is indeed brainstorming something. So this is some kind of meta function perhaps. Likewise Ni uses all the regions of the brain but instead it is synchronous. He calls it the 'zen state'.
I'm observing these function orders through the writings of authors, as well as phenomenological introspection. I was skeptical for a while that cognitive functions had validity at all, but they're quite clearly there.

In the case of an INTP that uses a heavy amount of Ne, the Ti still comes first, and it still runs as Ti-Ne-Si-Fe, only the Ne section will likely be longer than usual. It's possible too that such an INTP could use an ENTP function order and go Ne-Ti-Fe-Si, but that is just a case of using the function order of a different type. Our type is just the most preferred function order - the default.

I of course am unsure how this would show up on a neurological reading, i.e. whether an INTP would show a synchronous brain state when engaging the Ni-Te-Fi-Se function order or whether something else would happen.

My methodology should be easy enough to use, but maybe it's harder to do for others than it is for me, as years of thinking has led me to stumble upon this particular method so it goes with what I've come to learn over that time.

Give it a go though - pick up a book, go to the start of a chapter, and try to link the first paragraph or few to a function based on the theme of what is being said, and then go onto the next section. This can be done to forum posts too, especially if they're in paragraph form.

There are no doubts in my mind any more that the function order typically suggested is the correct one.

There are some questions though of whether the function order of 4 functions extends into all 8, such that INTP = Ti-Ne-Si-Fe-Te-Ni-Se-Fi, but what I have observed in authors is that their writing cycles using only 4 functions.

If multiple people learn to do this method, we can cross-check each others' typings of authors (or otherwise) to give the idea objective validity.

(I would elaborate on how to link a short piece of writing to a cognitive function, but I do it very subjectively and then explain the reasoning situationally, but I will get something more concrete in time)

[note: I suspect that this post shows an INFJ function order moving through all 8 functions; the number of functions one progresses through seems correlated to how confident one is in the subject matter]
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Old 25th-March-2017, 03:47 AM   #8
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
Logical, but probably not exactly correct. For one the definition of the function order has changed over time and interpretation, so you'd have to decide if you really have the right order. Secondly, you have to define what a function is first. Thirdly, you'd have to account for individual differences, that is clearly some INTP's 'run' more Ne than others (entertainer INTP's do this in particular), so is the order the functions are 'used' in your nomenclature canonical, or can it be altered?

If you consult Dario Nardi's work in this, in fact he sees that predominantly INTP's use the F3, F4 and C3 regions of the brain the most. These are "Deductive Analyst, Expert Classifier and Factual Storekeeper." You don't need the definitions of these terms to see they are Ti and Si, which indicates a usage model of Ti-Si-Ne-Fe perhaps.

On Ne he observed that when brainstorming Ne dominants and auxiliaries had 'Christmas Tree" brains, which is all the regions light up asynchronously, which triggers when the person is indeed brainstorming something. So this is some kind of meta function perhaps. Likewise Ni uses all the regions of the brain but instead it is synchronous. He calls it the 'zen state'.
do you know about his views on headaches? i mean if a certain area of my brain always hurts then it means i abused a certain function?
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Old 25th-March-2017, 04:38 AM   #9
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

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do you know about his views on headaches? i mean if a certain area of my brain always hurts then it means i abused a certain function?
you must alternately activate each of the 8 functions separately and test which one gives you a headache, like a troo scientist!
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Old 25th-March-2017, 05:11 AM   #10
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

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Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz
phenomenological introspection.
This perhaps warrants its own thread, but given that I only have a handful of observations I'll include it here. Here's a note on what each of the functions is like to use:

Fe - very verbal, conversational as if I'm explaining something to someone
Te - also very verbal, but it's more like thinking to oneself to try and figure something out
Ne - I describe this as like "bubbles in my head", thoughts will float around, connections being noted
Se - simple language, focused on the external object and narrating observations

Fi - few words, a state of mind of listening
Ti - also few words, uses logical connectors mainly, with a non-verbal analysis being done
Ni - process of discovery, uses terms to move to the next piece uncovered
Si - focused on the experiences of the body

--

Also, all perception functions seem linked to the imagination, with introverted perception being more abstract visuals in a mental space, and extroverted perception imagining scenarios.
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Old 25th-March-2017, 03:43 PM   #11
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz View Post
Give it a go though - pick up a book, go to the start of a chapter, and try to link the first paragraph or few to a function based on the theme of what is being said, and then go onto the next section. This can be done to forum posts too, especially if they're in paragraph form.

There are no doubts in my mind any more that the function order typically suggested is the correct one.
Looking at it from inside Team Architect demonstrates the problem. Take a example which I do for a good portion of the day - programming. I talk about it so much because its an activity that uses all four functions in approximately the right percentage. Ti for figuring out problems, Ne for designing solutions and systems, Si for having a library of necessary information and focus on details and Fe for doing work that matters, UI design and so forth.

I've watched myself work, most of the time it's a Ti-Si loop. Figure something out, need some information, pull it up, and so on, round and round. And in fact the three regions for these, F3, F4 and C4 are right next to one another (regions in proximity tend to fire together). Now I run into something I need to design or brainstorm. I can feel what that's like in my brain, I physically sit back, stare into space and brainstorm it. Oftentimes I need to get away from the computer, and frequently I just need to file it in the back of my head for my unconscious to 'feel' it's way to the right solution. Finally once in a while I'll think about the end user and how they would feel about what I'm doing for them - classic Fe.

So my point is that as far as I can tell, this activity which makes me quite happy is primarily Ti-Si, with lots of bouts of Ne, but those two groups are rather separated. A sprinkling of Fe flavors the mix. It appears to be a binary either or, and this has some correspondence with the idea that the dominant and teritary team up (being introverted) and the aux/inferior team up, being extroverted. But it doesn't appear to be some kind of linear top-bottom.

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do you know about his views on headaches? i mean if a certain area of my brain always hurts then it means i abused a certain function?
Not that I know of. Interestingly he points out that when right handed people scratch their head they most frequently scratch over the region (F3) involved with logical thought, whether that means something or not.
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Old 26th-March-2017, 12:02 AM   #12
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

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Originally Posted by Architect
right handed people scratch their head they most frequently scratch over the region (F3) involved with logical thought
There u go TMB. You've spent too much time around INTPs/Ti and it has hurt your logic regions :P

Quote:
the idea that the dominant and teritary team up... and the aux/inferior team up...
I've wondered about this but haven't really observed it yet. I suspect it would be relevant with, say, socionics duals interacting.

Take INTP and ESFJ: Ti-Ne-Si-Fe, Fe-Si-Ne-Ti. Now, these types get on well because their default functions match up, but unlike activity partners, they seem to flow in an out of sync manner, like:

... Ti - Ne - Si - Fe - Ti -...
... Ti - Fe - Si - Ne - Ti -...

But as you can see, either the introverted or extroverted functions will both line up.

Furthermore, dual pairs will have similar secondary styles, because INTP is often strong in INTJ (quite universal) and ESFP (may vary from INTP to INTP), just like ESFJ only the other way around.


So, we may have primarily introverted and primarily extroverted modes. But these modes will not break the function order rule - rather, less time will be spent in the functions with the opposite attitude, but they still have to pass through those functions. And, it also may be that you're not properly identifying when you do go into, say, Ne mode. You don't have to be brain storming, just seeing connections in one way or another.

I was reading an essay I had written, and it started off in the usual Ni-Fe-Ti-Se function order, but later there was a very Ni section which seemed to move straight into a very lengthy Ti section, and then I checked back on the Ni section and found that it had ended in a very Fe manner. So this may be reflective of what you do at work - moving from Ti to Si, but the Ti would end with something Ne-ish.
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Old 26th-March-2017, 12:37 AM   #13
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

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Originally Posted by Artsu Tharaz View Post
I've wondered about this but haven't really observed it yet. I suspect it would be relevant with, say, socionics duals interacting.
What would salvage your idea for me is to acknowledge that there are different pathways (or patterns, modalities, whatever a good name is) for how the neocortical functions are used. In my view the functions are root are motivations that arise from the ability of different brains to processes different information (body/limbic (feeling), senses (Sensation), thinking and the unconscious (intuition)). Due to this motivations then people develop 'function' mirrors in their neocortex.

One thing we know about the neocortex is that it's plastic (it changes), and is subject to our free will. So we have to admit that how we use the neocortex is the result of how we used it in the past. This shows how Type Suppression occurs too.

Finally, this then implies that how we use our neocortical developed functions could vary, perhaps person to person, or even based on activity. I agree with you that the strict top down is something I do - just not all the time.
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Old 26th-March-2017, 10:19 AM   #14
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

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What would salvage your idea for me is to acknowledge that there are different pathways (or patterns, modalities, whatever a good name is) for how the neocortical functions are used. In my view the functions are root are motivations that arise from the ability of different brains to processes different information (body/limbic (feeling), senses (Sensation), thinking and the unconscious (intuition)). Due to this motivations then people develop 'function' mirrors in their neocortex.

One thing we know about the neocortex is that it's plastic (it changes), and is subject to our free will. So we have to admit that how we use the neocortex is the result of how we used it in the past. This shows how Type Suppression occurs too.

Finally, this then implies that how we use our neocortical developed functions could vary, perhaps person to person, or even based on activity. I agree with you that the strict top down is something I do - just not all the time.
I like Nardi's work* but I lack the neuroscientific background to really incorporate that into my ideas. I mean, I've gotten to the point now where I can directly observe function use, especially my own. So my ideas will largely be original from this point. ~mastery~

-in Se mode at the moment, I'm pretty sure I'm right that we start the day in the dominant function, and by evening are in the inferior. The other four functions may come through sleep, or if you pull an all nighter haha.

So there's multiple timeframes on which the functions can be observed, fractals and all that.

* I haven't read a book from him, only seen summaries on forums
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Old 26th-March-2017, 03:17 PM   #15
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

You should read his book, it doesn't require any neuroscience. He lays it out for the general public.
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Spoiler:
Quote:
Originally Posted by skip
I don't see emotions as something that need to be controlled, they're just information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starjots
Because I think the Singularity is much more interesting than the Rapture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaSurfer
I don't really care to act against my nature anymore.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jennywocky
Discovery channel is like introductory porn for INTPs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Minsky
I probably wouldn't go skydiving anyhow because my time is too valuable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 8151147
Coding is fun, how the hell you can live without it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by E404
Sometimes the hardest part is knowing what I actually want and allowing myself to want it...
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Old 27th-March-2017, 12:15 PM   #16
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

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You should read his book, it doesn't require any neuroscience. He lays it out for the general public.
I was going to buy it last year but opted out at the last moment for some reason. I may still buy it.

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Take INTP and ESFJ: Ti-Ne-Si-Fe, Fe-Si-Ne-Ti. Now, these types get on well
feck I spoke to soon idek any more which types get on well with which. Intertype relations is confusing as feck especially given that I have limited irl reference points on which to base a judgement. bleh. Intertype relations does my head in, I should stick to the part of it I know I can do.
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Old 28th-March-2017, 07:21 PM   #17
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

So, while my methods seem very promising, I think I'll have to put a stop to it for now.

I've proven at least to myself that cognitive functions and function order exist and are as are taught, and I've demonstrated conclusively to myself what type I am.

It's questionable whether my thoughts are, or will become, somewhat psychotic - in the sense of imagining things to be there which are not, which is dangerous territory to tread as it can lead to being caught up with phenomena divorced from reality.

I also still cannot quite understand the purpose of this typing business in the first place, and it has been no more than an obsession to understand something which is in the early phases of development, and not yet a science. Intellectually viable, practically dubious.

Message me to find out more about what I was seeing.
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Old 29th-March-2017, 12:20 AM   #18
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

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I also still cannot quite understand the purpose of this typing business in the first place, and it has been no more than an obsession to understand something which is in the early phases of development, and not yet a science. Intellectually viable, practically dubious.
Hardly, study up on "Type Suppression". This is what led Jung to the theory in the first place. Middle aged patients suffering from complexes that conflicted with their type. Using both Type/MBTI and psychoanalytic tools can greatly help a lot of people. I frequently see Type suppression, even in types you wouldn't expect like the ISFJ wife of a friend who was raised in a bad household she'd like to forget. Unfortunately being an ISFJ she needs to live the life she was taught as a chilld, oops. It's a problem.

And that's just one example.
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Sometimes the hardest part is knowing what I actually want and allowing myself to want it...
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Old 19th-April-2017, 09:36 AM   #19
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

I'm still looking for someone who can see that this approach actually works.

I've seen enough to know that function order manifests as an order, but applying it to reading others' types is a more difficult matter.

So, once again:

Divide the text into sections, as paragraphs do

Connect each section/paragraph to a function

Check that the connections lead to the 4 functions of a function order appearing (it may be less or more, but looking for 4 is the easiest way to do it)
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Old 20th-April-2017, 03:34 AM   #20
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Default Re: Appearance of Function Order

Hmmm, type suppression? Once I started Ritalin (ADD meds) my mind kind of expanded and my personality changed. I adopted the classic flat INTP flat face, but was using Ni moreso than Ne and Ti. I've never been the same since then, something changed. Before that, I was easily an F, possibly an E. Still use Ti now obviously, but Ni I can use sometimes but I have far less control over it. I think that functions may also follow behavioural modalities, making it difficult to use a different function without changing your behaviour, which by itself is dofficult to change whilst in the same context.
The dominant change was a detatchment from emotions and an increase in intelligence.
An interesting idea I just had was muscle memory in the neurocortex and it's role.
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