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Old 5th-September-2017, 04:40 PM   #1
Cognisant
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Default Staying with the forum

I'm becoming increasingly intolerant of what I consider to be stupidity, things like religion, spirituality, new age stuff, any kind of drug induced epiphany, suggestions that the scientific method is somehow insufficient or that scientists have some kind of overarching agenda or investigative blind spot.

Imagine you're approached by the Flat Earth Society, you might be tempted to argue with them, their beliefs are painfully delusional, but what if you've argued with them before indeed what if you've argued with them and people like them many times before? Eventually a kind of apathy sets in, you get frustrated that they can say whatever nonsense they like but you have to present a water-tight case to refute them, what happens when you don't feel motivated to go to such effort anymore?

I don't want to argue anymore, I don't want to give them the dignity of me acknowledging that there's an argument to be had, for such people I have no respect I only have contempt.

This is a problem, if Mormons harass me at my doorstep I can quite rightly tell them to fuck off but here well this is a forum and it's not my forum. For years it's been a place I felt I belonged, I helped drive off the proselytising fucks that sought to ruin it, but perhaps the time has come when I too no longer belong here.

Perhaps now in my own way I've become the proselytising fuck.
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Old 5th-September-2017, 04:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

I say we implement a series of random bans to revitalize the place!
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Old 5th-September-2017, 05:35 PM   #3
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

how often do i have to explain this to you?
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Old 5th-September-2017, 05:37 PM   #4
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

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I say we implement a series of random bans to revitalize the place!
Careful what you wish!

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Old 5th-September-2017, 05:49 PM   #5
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op lacks precission so give names
shoot

i smell the old drama theme in the morning

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Old 5th-September-2017, 09:52 PM   #6
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

it seems this war will never end, the allure of eternal life in marshmallow heaven is too comforting for some to resist. but think of the children "god"dammit!! retreat to your bed with vodka and pizza until your strength returns; you dont have to fight every battle

may reason be with you til your flesh rots and you cease to exist <3
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Old 5th-September-2017, 10:05 PM   #7
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

Here I thought you'd never tire of battling the Blobs of the world.

Unfortunately, it will always be easier to sell spirit healing than legitimate medicine.
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Old 5th-September-2017, 10:31 PM   #8
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

* rises eyes from trainspotting book* you doss cunt don't go Cogboy you are real jungle cat labdick of rationality. woo-woo wankers are harmless losers anyway like they not either here or there. you doss cunt <3
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Old 5th-September-2017, 11:03 PM   #9
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Default Re: Can't think of a title



Oh come on, admit it Cog -- you've never met a tentacle you didn't like.

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Old 6th-September-2017, 12:23 AM   #10
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

“There are no differences but differences of degree between different degrees of difference and no difference.”

No one gives a rat's ass about you or your problems. The flat earthers are an example of bad thinking emulation now that the internet is widely available and used by everyone - so everyone is a genius now. They can't be reasoned with and I waste no time trying to fix their folly. That's for other, non-science majors to do. They take pleasure in making that correction because it isn't that hard but they really have no grasp of physics or any actual science, they're just a fan of it and need to play their part, no matter how small a role it may be. It gives the illusion they are actually smart and can use critical thinking. People should know better.

Why do people want to upgrade humans via A.I. and technology but can't take a plant? It's the same thing. Real spirituality is science personified. You can take acid or smoke DMT and still be into computers. It's not mutually exclusive. It won't make you not into the singularity anymore. It doesn't mean you have to bash it. It will do so much more. If you want to die never having experienced this birthright then more power to you. There's no indication that you actually go there when you die. There are plenty of professionals and scientists who have experienced it and at least have the benefit of that against not having it.

Science will have a blind spot until it studies the mind more. I'm not into drugs but there are a class of substances called the tryptamines which are interesting. They act on serotonin receptors in the brain. They're not even really drugs in that sense, or are different from others. Everything is a drug: sugar, food, video games, tv, you name it. So it isn't a fair classification. So it isn't fair, they really can induce epiphanies! But then again you can get epiphanies while sober so it's not like there's a need to.

I don't know about any other new age or spirituality stuff but in the Amazon when they drink ayahuasca they get visited by outer space doctors who speak computer language. The western society is concerned with the European notions of right and wrong. It's science, read Strassman's Spirit Molecule about the study they did. It's about a scientific study they performed. So no one knows yet. Any explanation is an attempt to overlay scientific data over it to explain what's happening. It's generally different from any other drug reaction. Fuck what you heard. Get wrekt.


Quote:
the allure of eternal life in marshmallow heaven is too comforting for some to resist
Oh but it does exist. I have seen it face to face. But it can still be a hallucination. People who get NDEs say the same thing. Sometimes users of DMT say it's just another drug, it just has powerful effects and you get high as fuck. So the effects could just be your subconscious and not actually be 'real'. But it's still pretty crazy. You can get something like that. The imagination is limitless, you can get anything. I don't care. It's definitely unique no matter what you think. So there's a neurotheological model and a theoneurological one. It really is magic or it's "just another drug". Sometimes people don't even feel closer to God. Everyone is different as I've already said. So know that not all aficionados are blind followers. It's not that simple. It's complex. I'd rather have done it than not have. Can't say the same for everything. And you can't say anything or discount its validity if you haven't tried it. But it is fun to joke about.
Discounting things like religion is just an intellectual exercise. It makes you look smart for being able to reason through. Because it's ridiculous right? It must be. How else can it happen? People generally don't have all the data to jump to the conclusions they do but I don't blame them. Continue on your path to enlightenment by inducing it via non drug methods.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 02:38 AM   #11
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

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Originally Posted by Cognisant View Post
I'm becoming increasingly intolerant of what I consider to be stupidity, things like religion, spirituality, new age stuff, any kind of drug induced epiphany, suggestions that the scientific method is somehow insufficient or that scientists have some kind of overarching agenda or investigative blind spot.

Imagine you're approached by the Flat Earth Society, you might be tempted to argue with them, their beliefs are painfully delusional, but what if you've argued with them before indeed what if you've argued with them and people like them many times before? Eventually a kind of apathy sets in, you get frustrated that they can say whatever nonsense they like but you have to present a water-tight case to refute them, what happens when you don't feel motivated to go to such effort anymore?

I don't want to argue anymore, I don't want to give them the dignity of me acknowledging that there's an argument to be had, for such people I have no respect I only have contempt.

This is a problem, if Mormons harass me at my doorstep I can quite rightly tell them to fuck off but here well this is a forum and it's not my forum. For years it's been a place I felt I belonged, I helped drive off the proselytising fucks that sought to ruin it, but perhaps the time has come when I too no longer belong here.

Perhaps now in my own way I've become the proselytising fuck.
Rule of thumb: don't argue wth idiots - they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Your best bet is to just shut up and get on with your day.

The idiots didn't gain in number (at least proportionately), their voices only got carried further via the interwebs.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 02:45 AM   #12
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

Quote:
Rule of thumb: don't argue wth idiots - they'll just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.
I was going to reply to the OP but then I read this and was like, yeah.

So that's about all you'll get.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 03:00 AM   #13
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

The funny thing is that our views align pretty much 1:1. Except for our positions on how we treat people with differing views.

Because when you put a differing perspective down to stupidity, you're killing the discussion entirely. For instance, the thread to which you're responding: https://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=26733

Neither QT nor Artsu are stupid. I am *highly* skeptical of the notions they propose, but even a genius can believe something wrong. Intelligence is not immunity to bias. By dismissing someone as stupid you're putting them on the defensive, which is not a winning strategy for having a discussion.

I think the apathy is normal. You have had these sorts of discussions a *lot*, and to little avail. I figure for people like us, the thing we get out of it is a refinement of our positions, but there's diminishing returns for that and now the conversation is exhausted.

I think to some extent, yeah, you're a proselytising fuck (meant in the nicest way possible). It's a bit of a sliding scale, we've all been there.

I guess the question is, if you can't go shitting on people for their differing views, and you can't be bothered having an actual discussion, is there anything else keeping you here? The tabletop seemed like a good outlet for you when it was active, but I think the core members all got busy. You've got friends here, people you know. Are there other topics you would be willing to explore?

I think overall the forum has benefited a lot from your presence over the years, but by the sound of it it's not doing anything for you except for provide you a punching bag.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 04:32 AM   #14
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

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I figure for people like us, the thing we get out of it is a refinement of our positions, but there's diminishing returns for that and now the conversation is exhausted.*

I guess the question is, if you can't go shitting on people for their differing views, and you can't be bothered having an actual discussion, is there anything else keeping you here?
Nostalgia, I spend most of my time on Reddit these days but I don't really know anyone there and seems like you can't really be known unless you're famous for something but even then it's not that people know you but rather they only know of you.

Quote:
I think to some extent, yeah, you're a proselytising fuck (meant in the nicest way possible).
Lol and that's why I like it here.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 06:03 AM   #15
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

Arguments are really lose-lose situations in this case. Both parties wasted their time, was unable to soothe their egos and entrenched themselves even further in their belief system. As for your case, you simply made the conviction of these people with "alternative" viewpoints even stronger which will frustrate you even more.

It's really a waste of time unless you're enjoying the arguments for argument's sake.

By the way, as a scientist, I can say that the scientific method is limited (and that's okay, it's just a tool after all). And we also have overarching agenda (getting paid for scientific work)
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Old 6th-September-2017, 06:42 AM   #16
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I doubt anyone would disagree it's limited. If science wasn't limited we'd be gods.

What gets my goat is that people use limitation as grounds for dismissal for science, but then ignore all the short-comings of their preferred method including the very same limitations. e.g. science can't prove the origins of life -> but this source says it can and that's proof enough for me.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 07:17 AM   #17
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Default Re: Can't think of a title

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I doubt anyone would disagree it's limited. If science wasn't limited we'd be gods.
I'm just teasing Cog

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What gets my goat is that people use limitation as grounds for dismissal for science, but then ignore all the short-comings of their preferred method including the very same limitations. e.g. science can't prove the origins of life -> but this source says it can and that's proof enough for me.
Anyways, I think they can dismiss all they want to unless they are somehow in a position of power where said belief system would be problematic, like a parent that is also an anti-vaxxer. If they're just a random dude that thinks the world is flat, then, more power to him. We'll just get no work done and get pissed off in the process if we get to argue with all of these people.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 11:05 AM   #18
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Nostalgia, I spend most of my time on Reddit these days but I don't really know anyone there and seems like you can't really be known unless you're famous for something but even then it's not that people know you but rather they only know of you.


Lol and that's why I like it here.
You have to simply spend a lot of time in a niche environment to be known. May I suggest r/hentairobots no it doesn't exist but creating it is a good start to being known. Alternatively r/AIrights/

Yeah even we are social people. I say we, it's always been clear I'm a social slut.

Oh I agree with Hado in theory Cog in practice some of the time.

Yeah I think we would all do well if we banned a certain paranoid member. (OMG no it's not you why would you think that?)
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Old 6th-September-2017, 12:47 PM   #19
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Yeah I think we would all do well if we banned a certain paranoid member.
Excuse me, Gopher, but why exactly would you say "a certain paranoid member" instead of mentioning the person by name?

Are you aware of how incredibly shitty that is to do?

I'm sure you're completely aware of it actually, no one is that dense.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 01:18 PM   #20
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Excuse me, Gopher, but why exactly would you say "a certain paranoid member" instead of mentioning the person by name?

Are you aware of how incredibly shitty that is to do?

I'm sure you're completely aware of it actually, no one is that dense.
Well you say that..... but it was clearly a joke about paranoia. Unless now I'm being dense and not picking up on you pretending to be dense.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 01:24 PM   #21
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Well you say that..... but it was clearly a joke about paranoia. Unless now I'm being dense and not picking up on you pretending to be dense.
It was an odd joke, to say the least.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 01:30 PM   #22
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Well the premise was setup with the random banning in the second post. If that took place people would be paranoid about who was next. You know Hunger Games style. I then made sort of jumped around in my brain as I read the rest of the posts replied to Cog agreed with Hado then it came out when I wrote that. I don't generally think when writing it just kind of happens.

I guess it's kinda of like shitposting with good intentions. I want people to be happy and laugh at jokes but I'm not around enough anymore/don't have the time to really craft them. So I just throw stuff out and hope someone likes it.

If it makes it better we should just ban all paranoid people.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 02:10 PM   #23
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Renamed thread to describe content. If you prefer something else just say.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 02:26 PM   #24
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Well the premise was setup with the random banning in the second post. If that took place people would be paranoid about who was next. You know Hunger Games style. I then made sort of jumped around in my brain as I read the rest of the posts replied to Cog agreed with Hado then it came out when I wrote that. I don't generally think when writing it just kind of happens.

I guess it's kinda of like shitposting with good intentions. I want people to be happy and laugh at jokes but I'm not around enough anymore/don't have the time to really craft them. So I just throw stuff out and hope someone likes it.

If it makes it better we should just ban all paranoid people.
I over-reacted, triggered maybe.

I've been having a panic attack for almost 2 hours.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 05:14 PM   #25
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The funny thing is that our views align pretty much 1:1. Except for our positions on how we treat people with differing views.

Because when you put a differing perspective down to stupidity, you're killing the discussion entirely.
It's true though - it's a type of stupidity. It doesn't make the person entirely stupid, but they're definitely stupid in a certain area.

I'm not sure discussion even matters with people who have a pre-existing belief in religion/spirituality anyway though, because 99% of them aren't well-versed enough in science to make a legitimate argument against it. Mostly they'll just recycle some tired old argument that's been cut down in a dozen different ways by a variety of people, until you eventually get to the point where they end up repeating some kind of variation on the, "but you can't disprove it" theme.

At least in the area of reason as it pertains to naturalism, these people are intellectually stunted and incapable. Which usually becomes clear when you get someone like WookieeB putting together a bunch of arbitrary numbers to show how 'it's impossible for the eye to have evolved, it must have been designed'.

Contrary to popular belief, there's actually a human behind the keyboard that writes the things WookieeB writes and it's not just a failed attempt at an AI. Maybe 4-5 years ago I found these debates interesting to the degree that they made me think of why I held the views I had, but after dozens of discussions (possibly over 100 now that I think of it) where every single religious/spiritualist/whateverthefuckist ends up eventually reverting back to the some variation on "you can't disprove it" I agree with Cognisant it's kind of pointless.

Once someone hits that point, it's just obvious that at absolute best they're suffering from a confirmation bias that isn't surmountable through words on the internet and at worst they're knowingly engaging in sophistry and/or proselytising.

~

Or you get some kind of sub-species of religious person who calls it metaphysics or something instead, and gets information from websites with purple Comic Sans text on lime green backgrounds and are seemingly incapable of reconciling the basic fact that if something affects the physical world, then it's a physical phenomenon and not a metaphysical one.

Eventually this discussion will also return to the notion of, "you can't disprove it" and the cycle forever continues.

~

Any kind of discussion with these people is realistically just what you've said - it's not out of charity to them but more so that you can refine your own ideas or see where you've erred in your own reasoning. It's not really something you engage in to convince the other person, but more to just state the truth of a matter to your own ability and see if you've got it right.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 05:31 PM   #26
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Old 6th-September-2017, 05:33 PM   #27
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I over-reacted, triggered maybe.

I've been having a panic attack for almost 2 hours.
Update: I had a fucking tick in my arm. That explains the panic attacks and my fatigue recently. Not sure if that's why I over-reacted to the joke or if I'm just retarded.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 05:37 PM   #28
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What if it's both?
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Old 6th-September-2017, 09:50 PM   #29
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Update: I had a fucking tick in my arm. That explains the panic attacks and my fatigue recently. Not sure if that's why I over-reacted to the joke or if I'm just retarded.
How'd you get that? But I sort of agree, I mean when I read the joke I thought it was a little strange who he could be referring to but I didn't make a deal of it.

I used to attack religion as illogical until I smoked weed and experienced God. You can experience It on other substances too... Or just practice meditation. So now it's not just one side against the other, it's more of a mystery. Sure you can say my brain is now ruined because of a psychoactive plant admixture and unable to distinguish true from false now because of the drug, but that isn't the case. This is something most debaters have failed to realize, experience, or integrate into the argument. Most people who do religion are unaware as well. There are only dreams and lucid dreams to go off of. No one knows how it works now but there are people on the problem and we should know within a few years, whatever that may accomplish. It's not unprovable. The Kabbalah is science. People think about it wrong. Some people try to find God in a bottle of alcohol but it doesn't work that way. You can find Buddha at the end of a pipe. Ten bucks a hit. But it certainly isn't what life is about. Maybe it is. You can do whatever you want.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 09:50 PM   #30
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Default Re: Staying with the forum

I like Redbaron and Cognizant. Very rational individuals.

So far I think I might just be the most bizarre person on the forum and they have seemed to let me alone. They as I have seen try to be as objective as possible. TheManBeyond said me and Lyra are intensely subjective.

Recently I leaned something about etymology. What I learned is that meta cognition = thinking about thinking and therefore metaphysics is "the physics of physics". Isn't that neato the word "physics" rhymes with "Fizzy soda pop". From this, we get the fizziness of fizziness. In this way, we can abstract away from simple physics and ask questions like: where does the idea of physics reside. It is a meta question. The brain is physical but in abstraction, the brain can universalize all actions in the universe as physics (fizziness). A rock has no metaphysics but a human with a brain does. Because meta is in the abstractions a human has about physics as being a product of physics. So metaphysics is not some magical pixie dust. It is about how a physical system is capable of asking a question about reality. This is a deep question. We know we exist and because we know we exist the ability to hold a meta-view on really and also being a physical system is quite remarkable.

"We are the universe knowing itself"-Carl Sagan

Going back to how Red and Cog are objective about most everything. I think this is really what is such a hindrance. I have had no conflicts with them for a long time and the reason is, I use philosophy to explain my spirituality/religiousness beliefs. And also I make clear my beliefs are subjective so it is what I experience not something that is necessarily real in reality. I can make the distinction between what is real and not real and also potentially real. Most people are not as sophisticated but I still make mistakes. I am good at reasoning (Greek logos). I can have dialogs with others in a neutral and detached way. Cog and Red as I read their emotions seem too invested in wanting to be right and wanting everyone to be objective and less ignorant. The argumentive form they take is in my opinion crucially acute on precision. Everything must be precise to them so that is how they proceed in dialog. I do not mean to be offensive saying this. It is only an observation. Because even if it is only text, I have impressions of emotion from text on the forum.
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Old 6th-September-2017, 10:27 PM   #31
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I used to attack religion as illogical until I smoked weed and experienced God.
Must. resist. temptation. to make this. my new signature lol.
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Old 7th-September-2017, 12:52 AM   #32
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So far I think I might just be the most bizarre person on the forum and they have seemed to let me alone.
I think you're like our Diogenes, not cynical but you have your own philosophy and you live by it so earnestly we can't help but respect it and accept you for who you are.
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Old 7th-September-2017, 01:21 AM   #33
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Plis someone start hating plis
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Old 7th-September-2017, 02:50 AM   #34
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It's true though - it's a type of stupidity. It doesn't make the person entirely stupid, but they're definitely stupid in a certain area.

I'm not sure discussion even matters with people who have a pre-existing belief in religion/spirituality anyway though, because 99% of them aren't well-versed enough in science to make a legitimate argument against it. Mostly they'll just recycle some tired old argument that's been cut down in a dozen different ways by a variety of people, until you eventually get to the point where they end up repeating some kind of variation on the, "but you can't disprove it" theme.

At least in the area of reason as it pertains to naturalism, these people are intellectually stunted and incapable. Which usually becomes clear when you get someone like WookieeB putting together a bunch of arbitrary numbers to show how 'it's impossible for the eye to have evolved, it must have been designed'.

Contrary to popular belief, there's actually a human behind the keyboard that writes the things WookieeB writes and it's not just a failed attempt at an AI. Maybe 4-5 years ago I found these debates interesting to the degree that they made me think of why I held the views I had, but after dozens of discussions (possibly over 100 now that I think of it) where every single religious/spiritualist/whateverthefuckist ends up eventually reverting back to the some variation on "you can't disprove it" I agree with Cognisant it's kind of pointless.

Once someone hits that point, it's just obvious that at absolute best they're suffering from a confirmation bias that isn't surmountable through words on the internet and at worst they're knowingly engaging in sophistry and/or proselytising.

~

Or you get some kind of sub-species of religious person who calls it metaphysics or something instead, and gets information from websites with purple Comic Sans text on lime green backgrounds and are seemingly incapable of reconciling the basic fact that if something affects the physical world, then it's a physical phenomenon and not a metaphysical one.

Eventually this discussion will also return to the notion of, "you can't disprove it" and the cycle forever continues.

~

Any kind of discussion with these people is realistically just what you've said - it's not out of charity to them but more so that you can refine your own ideas or see where you've erred in your own reasoning. It's not really something you engage in to convince the other person, but more to just state the truth of a matter to your own ability and see if you've got it right.
Why the need to assert that technically someone is stupid in a specific domain? Everyone has shortcomings, everyone is wrong sometimes. Probability dictates that you yourself are technically stupid, just in a way that is not necessarily relevant to the current topic.

I can absolutely agree that some people aren't worth debating. Your options then are to call them stupid, or to not debate them.

If reason isn't behind someone's beliefs, but that belief keeps reproducing, then it's almost certainly the result of socialisation (how else does a belief that does not follow from reality maintain itself?). The socialisation that you're offering alienates them from influences that might eventually change their mind. Never have I changed my mind because someone called me stupid. It has always been either a book or person who allowed me to explore a topic without feeling attacked.

For the record, the incident that spurred this topic, was QT saying something he couldn't quite source. He wasn't dogmatically proclaiming a concrete worldview.

Spoiler:
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Quote:
TBH, I am kinda appalled that scientists don't want to look at anything smaller than a quark for this reason. It could explain a lot, but the scientists are choosing to look at other things. No idea why though.
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Hang on let me repeat that back to you:
Scientists don't want to look at anything smaller than a quark.

I just... how do I... *sigh* I'm going to get in trouble for ad homming again.
C'mon how do I address this without calling him stupid?

Ok here's an idea, QuickTwist please provide some basis for you assertion that scientist don't want to look at anything smaller than a quark.
A quote would be fantastic
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There was a female theoretical physicist that worked with string theory that I heard this from. Not sure what her name was, but apparently she is some hot shot in the science field. Sorry, don't have a quote.

If you have evidence to the contrary (that scientists are trying to look at things smaller than a quark), I am all ears.

[Edit] Pretty sure it was in here somewhere:

https://youtu.be/0eaWHUMjgqk


Cognisant did the "I'm not calling you stupid, but you're stupid" thing without giving QT even a chance to engage. He both invited the debate and dismissed him as stupid.

So we can talk about people with super strong views who we're too tired to correct, but that isn't actually what the issue was. In my mind, QT was wrong but far from being stupid.

I don't think Cog's actions are consistent with someone too tired to debate. He's always demonstrated a lot of energy for showing other people the errors in their ways. He showed that he wanted to confront QT, but when I stepped in and said he shouldn't be ad homming, the scope of the discussion widened to include flat-earthers and religious zealots and all matter of whatever else. Correct me if I'm wrong Cog, but I think you want a confrontation to sharpen your claws on, and you feel stifled by my not allowing the ad homs. We still have the arena for that stuff.
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Old 7th-September-2017, 03:29 AM   #35
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i see the problem as this; quicktwist enters in discussions having little understanding of the matters, saying a random thing he heard and then engaging or causing controversy because everyone is so "open to possibilities" so they have some smoke to hold on to. not first time.
i don't mind what quicktwist produces, i get pissed off by how people keep buying, sniffin and selling the gas.
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Old 7th-September-2017, 03:40 AM   #36
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I see no problem with anything QT said. Or anyone for that matter.

Who gives a shit? Really. Go and use your collective brainpower for something useful.
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Old 7th-September-2017, 02:31 PM   #37
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I don't think people are generally offended by others having spiritual views in of itself and think it's likely down to where people have felt intruded upon. For example, there being an proselytising tendency in certain circles, or where people attempt to assert beliefs or medical advice that appear contradicted by modern science and might hurt them.

I don't think it's an area that's fallen under the spotlight of scientific scrutiny much because it's too experiential to apply objective measures to. If someone says, I experienced x as a result of exogenous (e.g. hallucinogens) or endogenous (e.g. meditation) causes, then the most a scientist can do is examine corresponding physical mechanisms in the brain and body. But you can't apply objective measures to the contents of the experience which a spiritualist tends to be more convinced by and is generally the perspective they're arguing from.

(I.e. some spiritualists do try to back up their views with scientific data, but realistically they came to their own conclusions because of experience and try to back it up retrospectively.)

They're just very different dispositions. As a spiritualist will say my experience reflects a view in which the mind encompasses the physical, and so knowing reality involves exploring the depths of experience. And a naturalist will say, you can't apply objective measures to that that I'm satisfied with, but there is a corresponding physical mechanism I can observe that I'm content explains it.

I think saying one or the other is stupid is a bit disingenuous. For the same reason I wouldn't call a story-teller, a philosopher, or a psychoanalyst stupid - methods that have evolved from spiritual traditions can lead to a different kind of self-insight which is valuable. I think there just needs to be more honesty around the limitations of different methodologies.
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Old 7th-September-2017, 02:50 PM   #38
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I think there's a fine line between ridiculous beliefs and open mindedness.

TL;DR - I'm a natural sceptic, but I have (annoyingly) experienced a great many strange occurrences throughout my life which apparently defy rationale.

Therefore, I postulate aliens.

And / or Samsquanch.
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Old 7th-September-2017, 08:07 PM   #39
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I know that Jesus in toast is a kind of lame miracle. But what if you had a big bag of skittles and then dropped them on the floor. What if they fell in perfect text "John 3:16". And then 5 more impossible things like this happen the very same day.

It was not my plan that I went to the hospital on June 4, 2016. Nor was it my plan to go back on June 3, 2017. That is 364 days. I do not see how it is possible that the first time I ever hallucinated was followed up by a hallucination one year later. It just happened by accident.

Synchronicity is completely discounted by science because science is based on causality which is the opposite synchronicity. Meaningful things do happen but most people into science think everything is meaningless. That is the real problem. Scientists think the toast with Jesus on it is silly. The person with the toast finds profound meaning in it. Everyone who is spiritual has in their own way a piece of toast with Jesus in it. Something deep and meaningful. I uncertain in this statement but I think that brain scans have shown that extreme levels of alpha and gamma waves produce meaningfulness in people. But most scientists will question: does this affect the outside world. I personally think it does. That is what makes me like everyone else who has their Jesus toast. I try my best to have the purest intention I can. I try to do the right thing. I am ripped apart by all my mistakes. I follow the synchronicities.

Frequently I tell myself I am stupid because in my head I sometimes say things that I should not say. So I correct myself by reframing the thoughts in a way that more truthful and less hurtful. I do this because I do not want to say anything I will regret. Also, I have determined that a certain number of people on the planet can read other peoples thoughts. I am a little embarrassed that they could know what I am thinking.
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Old 8th-September-2017, 03:33 AM   #40
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These are just my thoughts, I'm not trying to correct your worldview.

364 != 365.25

You're being lenient in what you interpret as a miracle. "Close enough" shouldn't cut it when you're justifying a radical explanation. Your window for this being miraculous is within a three day window (one days presumably each side), Which is about one in 122 chance. Not likely, but when looking for patterns you're essentially rerolling all of your life. If you never experienced a coincidence like this you would be an outlier.

You're also lenient in the quality of the miraculous event. You're deciding it's miraculous after having witnessed it, but you have too much power to pick and choose. If you fail to have a hallucination next year, will you dismiss the miracle?

Then I think, there might be some connection between the annual cycle and your hallucinations. The weather changes, your diet might change to reflect differences in temperature, you might have particular people over, or events which cause stress. It might not be a coincidence, it might just be causality. You might even be queued to remember your hallucinations last year at the same time, and be primed to repeat it. If people's recall for things learned while intoxicated is improved by consumption of alcohol (which should hurt recall), then perhaps something similar happens for the precursors to your hallucinatory condition?

But looking into coincidence is natural, and so long as you're just observing the pattern, I think it's harmless.

I do have concern for you if you think people can read your mind. That would completely fuck me up. If I thought I was being held responsible for the thoughts I can't help, I would head for the hills and go full hermit. You seem more okay with it than I would be, so I'm probably over-reacting, but it does seem like it could get real unhealthy real quick. My mother actually shares this belief with you, she thinks it's something everyone could do but then humans fucked it up with science or something, and now we've got the ability but it's dormant in most individuals. I have more respect for your belief because my mother believes in causality but then can't explain a causal mechanism for how such a thing would come to be. Bloody hippies.
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Old 8th-September-2017, 04:16 AM   #41
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I do have concern for you if you think people can read your mind. That would completely fuck me up. If I thought I was being held responsible for the thoughts I can't help, I would head for the hills and go full hermit. You seem more okay with it than I would be, so I'm probably over-reacting, but it does seem like it could get real unhealthy real quick. My mother actually shares this belief with you, she thinks it's something everyone could do but then humans fucked it up with science or something, and now we've got the ability but it's dormant in most individuals. I have more respect for your belief because my mother believes in causality but then can't explain a causal mechanism for how such a thing would come to be. Bloody hippies.
i can't read the minds and i don't think anyone can. but i believe there's some kind of magic happening between me and certain special people (i need to be extremelly focused on them, almost to the point of obsessive), where without knowing what that person is going to do or say, something still pushes me into their same direction. you could explain by oh just coincidences. or more like for some random reasons all the world was pushing both of us into that direction and hence we collided, like fucking music man. and just maybe that's what animekitty calls to read minds. i have no clue tho. talking from my experiences.
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Old 8th-September-2017, 05:05 AM   #42
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I do have concern for you if you think people can read your mind. That would completely fuck me up. If I thought I was being held responsible for the thoughts I can't help, I would head for the hills and go full hermit.
Thinking people can read your mind is a hallmark of schizophrenia.
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Old 8th-September-2017, 06:28 AM   #43
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You're also lenient in the quality of the miraculous event. You're deciding it's miraculous after having witnessed it, but you have too much power to pick and choose. If you fail to have a hallucination next year, will you dismiss the miracle?
I m not expecting another one. What I learned from both of them is that I am helpless. And that I need to be sober about my life. I need a proper emotional balance. I need to stop thinking negative thoughts about myself and others. I need to stop being afraid. Thoughts can spiral into demonic oppressions. Questions that destroy people if they do not resist believing in them. A question I had from 12 to 19 was am I going to hell or not. Believing in that question made it difficult to enjoy understanding the bible well at the same time having the weight of sin on me. I've never been an atheist but I have believed in questions that only try to break me down and make me feel that God abandoned me. I can never tell people about the pain inside. I carry it with me everywhere I go.

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Then I think, there might be some connection between the annual cycle and your hallucinations. The weather changes, your diet might change to reflect differences in temperature, you might have particular people over, or events which cause stress. It might not be a coincidence, it might just be causality. You might even be queued to remember your hallucinations last year at the same time, and be primed to repeat it. If people's recall for things learned while intoxicated is improved by consumption of alcohol (which should hurt recall), then perhaps something similar happens for the precursors to your hallucinatory condition?
The first time I hallucinated I was studying occult information. This information causes cognitive dissonance and it was so bad things just started happening.

The second time was when my friend's car broke down in my drive way. She had a medical marijuana license and she gave me one and a half square. When I felt the high begin I went to my sister and she was messing with me. I began having stoner thoughts (ideas you have when stoned) and they spiraled into the darkest parts of my mind. I was having lucid religious nightmares. I was on the ground and could not move.

I do not think this is a cycle, but I do think that I was super overwhelmed at both times. I've never dealt with the dark things inside me.

Quote:
But looking into coincidence is natural, and so long as you're just observing the pattern, I think it's harmless.
I think it is just a one-year thing between two events. I doubt it will be an annual occurrence.

Quote:
I do have concern for you if you think people can read your mind. That would completely fuck me up. If I thought I was being held responsible for the thoughts I can't help, I would head for the hills and go full hermit. You seem more okay with it than I would be, so I'm probably over-reacting, but it does seem like it could get real unhealthy real quick. My mother actually shares this belief with you, she thinks it's something everyone could do but then humans fucked it up with science or something, and now we've got the ability but it's dormant in most individuals. I have more respect for your belief because my mother believes in causality but then can't explain a causal mechanism for how such a thing would come to be. Bloody hippies.
It is important for me to explain things in clarity and succinctness. I am not the average person that has random thoughts all the time. I will say something in my head and realize it might not be appropriate to say it in the way I did. So I go along with a dialogue explaining what I truly meant by my statement so the context around it does not make me look bigoted. I do this until I am satisfied with the core concept that I can verbally speak to people in person. I also use my feelings because as it turns out most people that can read minds are nonjudgmental.

They follow meditative practices that reduce emotionality and reactiveness. I can say I feel a certain way and explain to them where my conclusions came from. It is for me much like talking to a therapist. I try to best explain the conditions of what makes up the original thought. I justify it with logic and reason because everything I say is under the circumstances of how the world is and what it could be. I tell them why I disagree with certain things. The person I engage with who has telepathy has a youtube channel. I have noticed sometimes that he says things that I was thinking about in private in my own head. That might sound strange and science will say it is very implausible. But I do not want to pressure others into believing me. It is a personal experience I have and I only share it with people if they would like to talk about it.
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Old 8th-September-2017, 08:50 AM   #44
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Thinking people can read your mind is a hallmark of schizophrenia.
No that's just because they don't know what schizophrenia is. It's a broad term. What's really happening is the person is undergoing a form of consciousness expansion, or just a definite change in it. So they experience or allow and interpret synchronicity in new ways never before imagined. It's just an extra field to navigate through. What happens may or may not be true. In fact, most of the time it's just a paranoid state of reality. Except that acausal chains are set in motion. This is where the idea of "multiverses" is interpreted or more correctly, nihilism. But it isn't hard. What's easy is to fall within the same modes of thinking so you're living out the same day over and over doped out, which is really what's going on. And it's just as creepy as it sounds. Maybe not. Sketchy.
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Old 8th-September-2017, 03:47 PM   #45
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No that's just because they don't know what schizophrenia is. It's a broad term. What's really happening is the person is undergoing a form of consciousness expansion, or just a definite change in it. So they experience or allow and interpret synchronicity in new ways never before imagined. It's just an extra field to navigate through. What happens may or may not be true. In fact, most of the time it's just a paranoid state of reality. Except that acausal chains are set in motion. This is where the idea of "multiverses" is interpreted or more correctly, nihilism. But it isn't hard. What's easy is to fall within the same modes of thinking so you're living out the same day over and over doped out, which is really what's going on. And it's just as creepy as it sounds. Maybe not. Sketchy.
none of this follows
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Old 8th-September-2017, 03:48 PM   #46
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Specifically, I only think a select few can read minds because they trained themselves by meditation. That is not schizophrenia because in schizophrenia the person believes everyone around them reads their mind. It's the same difference between the inner voice and hearing voices. Thinking is not the same as hearing voices. The information I received leads me to believe certain people read minds not that everyone I see at Wal-mart is doing it. If I felt that everyone, everywhere I go was reading my mind I would be schizophrenic. Telepathy is a specific brain state you need to train for. It is not an attribute of the average joe.
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Old 9th-September-2017, 03:34 AM   #47
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It's similar to meditation because while it may be plausible and possible, there's no actual confirmation that anyone can actually do it. Plenty of people have said they could do it but there's no proof the average person can have a Kundalini awakening by meditation or anything else. It remains a fabled power. If you were hella smart, an altered state would be all that there is. If you've studied all the sciences enough, it should all point to a particular altered state that reveals all, and which might resemble something like contact with "God" or the Holy other. But it's hard and most people don't see the big picture. Again if you were hella smart, you'd be able to meditate it out of your head sans drugs probably. But most people can't. They lack the imagination and rational faculty to piece it together. A drug is aid. I don't like drugs but there are psychedelic plant teachers. They exist. Some plants are poisonous but these are not. They're special. People can "read" minds you just have to be really empathic. It's like how if you're in the same room as someone people can sort of tell or feel, assume, someone is looking at them. They know and time it. But if you're in a clock tower it's rather improbable for someone to be in there spying on you so they just don't always look there.
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Old 9th-September-2017, 03:03 PM   #48
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It's similar to meditation because while it may be plausible and possible, there's no actual confirmation that anyone can actually do it.
Uh, it's been studied.
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Old 9th-September-2017, 04:37 PM   #49
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Reading too much into things is a trap I've fallen into many times, rather than thinking I had some supernatural ability to read people's minds I believe I possessed such insight and intuition that could deduce what they were thinking, maybe not their exact thoughts but that I could see things with more objectivity than the object of my study could see for themselves.
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Old 9th-September-2017, 07:32 PM   #50
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Uh, it's been studied.
It's been studied, there's some data, but a demonstration has never been broadcast on live television or anything. The average person can't do it, they just do regular meditation. It takes a long time to accomplish. The Kabbalist Jewish Talmudic Sage Mystics are said to be able to do it, and induce DMT like states all the time. A history of oral tradition. So meditation does change brain waves, as does pot, and different stages of sleep. It's all related. But it hasn't impacted the world in ways that it should. USA is too fascist. For the amount of effort it takes it's worth it to just do the substance. LSD can facilitate telepathic communication as well. It can be highly subjective though. But it doesn't matter. Natural meditation is probably better everytime. It's information already known and attained that's release and shed light upon, not new information being generated by substances. So you can be wrong.
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