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paradoxparadigm7
22nd-February-2014, 09:48 PM
With all the discussions about uploading your consciousness into an android body etc...it got me thinking about the ramifications to the tenants of evolution. If we as a species can live indefinitely rendering us immortal, how does that change the fundamentals of evolution? We no longer would have a biological need to pass on our genetics ensuring survival of our species. What would we be left with? Maybe evolution would then shift to thriving. Like Maslow's hierarchy, the base is satisfied (survival) allowing for more higher order imperatives for the species. Does the fundamentals of evolution shift to life affirming?

Just initial thoughts. I've yet to think on this and flesh it out but your input is welcomed.

Reluctantly
22nd-February-2014, 10:28 PM
I take it as meaning that evolution would be a lot more controlled. We'd have a lot more input over where we want to go and what changes we'd like to see as we live our lives. Compare this to say a chemical process where the result depends solely on the laws governing its interactions (supposing we have enough reason and evidence to say that such laws exist absolutely) and there's a clear difference between the results of what someone aims for and what simply happens without intent.

So I guess we'd have more potential for purpose. I guess it would be the difference between adapting ourselves to the environment versus adapting the environment to ourselves. The latter probably goes against evolution.

Duxwing
22nd-February-2014, 10:54 PM
Evolution would still occur because it is not a prescription but a nigh-tautological description and explanation of the sampling bias that we see: we today see the descendants of whoever reproduced and therefore necessarily survived and mated.

-Duxwing

EyeSeeCold
22nd-February-2014, 11:01 PM
I think this idea is explored in cyberpunk. Instead of organic procreation, you would have genetic and neural engineering which becomes the new vehicle for species evolution. When it gets to a point that everyone is modifying themselves to compete with other cyborgs(while under an anarchist or statist society), I believe that would be evolution coming full circle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_enhancement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transhumanism

If I recall right, I think there were some members here discussing this post-scarcity & post-survival state of human life in the technological singularity threads.

Reluctantly
23rd-February-2014, 02:03 AM
But why would it have to lead to competition for survival? One wouldn't have to worry about survival as much, as it would be a lot easier to survive. Are you then suggesting that it is a basic truth that to simply live implies some form of competition for survival?

Hawkeye
23rd-February-2014, 02:06 AM
I like Peter F. Hamilton's Adamist and Edenist idea:

Essentially, humanity has split into two strands, the Adamists and Edenists.

The Edenists possess the affinity gene, which allows telepathic communication between one another and the construction and use of bio-technological (or 'biotek') constructs, including sentient, living starships (voidhawks) and enormous space habitats. The Edenists have a much greater standard of living than their Adamist counterparts.

The Adamists are 'classic' humans who employ mechanical and cybernetic technology and use implants (including 'neural nanonics', essentially computer systems built into the brain which allow anything from enhanced memory and entertainment access to controlling starships) to achieve their ends. The Adamists reject bitek for religious and cultural reasons, but it is later revealed that certain individuals working within Earth's government have discouraged the use of bitek for fear of losing their ability to influence the development of mankind. Some Adamists still use bitek, such as 'blackhawks', advanced living spacecraft similar to Edenist voidhawks but with enhanced combat capabilities.

Suh-Horse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Reality_Dysfunction)

Reluctantly
23rd-February-2014, 02:22 AM
Nevermind, I think I understand. We create things to make our lives easier, but then other people use those things to raise the bar and then life doesn't really get easier. So we'd expect more out of people for survival. Humanity is stupid.

QuickTwist
23rd-February-2014, 05:08 AM
I am wondering how this thread will turn out or if it is approaching its 90's.

EyeSeeCold
23rd-February-2014, 06:40 AM
Nevermind, I think I understand. We create things to make our lives easier, but then other people use those things to raise the bar and then life doesn't really get easier. So we'd expect more out of people for survival. Humanity is stupid.
Yeah. I can't predict what kind of society the world would be at that point but unless there is a simultaneous egalitarian revolution, some form of competition will continue to exist (power, mates, jobs, shelter, resources etc).

Blarraun
23rd-February-2014, 09:17 AM
Nevermind, I think I understand. We create things to make our lives easier, but then other people use those things to raise the bar and then life doesn't really get easier. So we'd expect more out of people for survival. Humanity is stupid.
Without a change in mentality, or creating the basic understanding for what is it that one needs, humanity is just a mold. It grows when it has resources and dies when it has not.

Providing more and more will only cause it to consume more rapidly and expand proportionally, technological growth is not a solution to the problem, unless you get to the point of providing every human with its own universe.

Architect
23rd-February-2014, 12:45 PM
Evolution has already moved from a blind "force" out of our control into our technology, and is vastly speeding up at the same time. While I literally mean technology in the traditional sense (Ray Kurzweil makes this point in his Singularity books), I also mean that in the larger sense of technology, meaning everything we do. The societies we create, the systems (educational, political) and the arts. A 21st century is already far evolved from a 18th century one simply because of the better education, education and world views.

QuickTwist
23rd-February-2014, 09:41 PM
Well so far the trend has been good after I wrote my comment. The responces breathed some realism into the topic. *Knocks on wood*

Absurdity
23rd-February-2014, 10:17 PM
With all the discussions about uploading your consciousness into an android body etc...it got me thinking about the ramifications to the tenants of evolution. If we as a species can live indefinitely rendering us immortal, how does that change the fundamentals of evolution? We no longer would have a biological need to pass on our genetics ensuring survival of our species. What would we be left with? Maybe evolution would then shift to thriving. Like Maslow's hierarchy, the base is satisfied (survival) allowing for more higher order imperatives for the species. Does the fundamentals of evolution shift to life affirming?

Just initial thoughts. I've yet to think on this and flesh it out but your input is welcomed.

This article (http://www.neoeugenics.net/camp.htm), which I linked to in this thread (http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=16292), may be of interest to you.

paradoxparadigm7
26th-February-2014, 06:51 PM
This article (http://www.neoeugenics.net/camp.htm), which I linked to in this thread (http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=16292), may be of interest to you.

Thanks for the link. I found this part most illuminating:
"A second important characteristic of evolution is self-reference (Campbell, 1982). The Cartesian cartoon of an autonomous external "environment" dictating the form of a species like a cookie cutter cutting stencils from sheets of dough is dead, dead wrong. The species molds its environment as profoundly as the environment "evolves" the species. In particular, the organisms cause the limiting conditions of the environment over which they compete. Therefore the genes play two roles in evolution. They are the targets of natural selection and they also ultimately induce and determine the selection pressures that act upon them. This circular causality overwhelms the mechanical character of evolution. Evolution is dominated by feedback of the evolved activities of organisms on their evolution."

I've been operating on the notion that evolution is a one-way action on the species, but this makes so much sense and I was misguided not to see it before. So in a sense, we've (humankind and all animals) always had a hand to play in our evolution we just didn't detect it. Of course we don't have all the cards/power but it's both comforting and disconcerting at the same time.

JimJambones
28th-February-2014, 05:09 AM
Perhaps evolution will play out in a manner similar to your computer "evolving" after receiving updates. Our digital consciousness could receive upgrades to improve cognitive functions or learn new skills to give themselves an edge in competing for energy and natural resources. The digital mind could be transferred to a new "body" that is also enhanced which would function in a similar manner to new adaptations evolving in nature.

Then of course there will be humans that choose to remain in their human body and they will still be subject to the same evolutionary processes as before.

JimJambones
28th-February-2014, 05:26 AM
Then of course you would need to have a backup of your conscious mind in case something goes horribly wrong. Where would you keep it? What if you're one of the most powerful minds in existence and a gang of pesky humans break into your secret vault and steal your backup, modify it, and manage to capture you and download your altered consciousness and influence your behavior in such a way that led to war and the demise of the Singularity Race, where everyone was salvaged for parts . All done in an attempt to stop the siphoning of energy resources away from the human race.

QuickTwist
28th-February-2014, 05:42 AM
Then of course you would need to have a backup of your conscious mind in case something goes horribly wrong. Where would you keep it? What if you're one of the most powerful minds in existence and a gang of pesky humans break into your secret vault and steal your backup, modify it, and manage to capture you and download your altered consciousness and influence your behavior in such a way that led to war and the demise of the Singularity Race, where everyone was salvaged for parts . All done in an attempt to stop the siphoning of energy resources away from the human race.

Already been through that shit. Basically what happens, in terms of words you are describing, Its like having a severe virus that takes over control of your PC and having to do a whole wipe and re-install an OS. Its a very painful process and takes a long ass time to get all the things installed so your PC has all the necessary things to be proficient. In the process it feels like a virus is infecting every aspect of the PC and you will either a.) want to die or b.) are overcome with emotion but you can't lash out because you know it is irrational to do so, so you end up bottling it all up and these extreme emotions take its toll on your psyche.

This has happened to me multiple times.