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You know, to think about it, I think Donald Trump...

onesteptwostep

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Thought himself as a Dark Knight. That he would receive all the hate a good 20% of American feel, so that he can achieve something good for the country (albert they were kind of backwards).

I pity the guy.

But if he runs again, screw him. lol

What do you guys think, do you think Donald Trump deserves pity? He is a human being after all, even with all his flaws. Many, many flaws...
 

dair

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Feel sorry for someone with less money or a terminal disease. All his woes are self-inflicted.
 

Animekitty

baby marshmallow born today
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Cheetos are a minority among presidents.
 

Cognisant

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He unabashedly used every manipulative psychological trick to get what he wanted regardless of the consequences for his party or his country, he is a high functioning narcissistic psychopath, an exceptional con man and a talented politician, he is a perfect example of everything that’s wrong with democracy.

The problem is that truth has become relative, specifically relative to how much someone wants to believe it (how emotionally invested they are in it being true or false) and to what degree they can be certain of it or rather how much uncertainty they can get away with. A politician can take a matter of clear right and wrong and obfuscate it, turn a one sided issue into a two sided issue and even if that other side is utterly ridiculous it doesn’t matter because as long as the debate continues it sows uncertainty. Then the politician spins a narrative, a new truth that appeals to people’s biases, it could be someone to blame, it could be a conspiracy theory, it could be the promise that if we just do this one thing everything else will sort itself out, anything so long as it’s more palatable than the actual truth.

The fact is people choose what they want to believe and when given the choice between a truth they dislike and a palatable lie they need only the pretence of uncertainty to excuse themselves from reality, to believe whatever it is they wish to believe.

I think that fundamentally this is a cultural issue, the western world has become indolent and self-entitled in our individualism, we have put the individual’s freedoms upon such a pedestal that it is no longer considered politically correct to tell people that they’re wrong or deluded even when they are. We’ve become so caught up in the narrative of the underdog overcoming adversity that we’ve fired the gatekeepers, brought down the ivory towers of academia and intellectualism, demanded equal respect be given to madmen and crackpots as our most wise and learned and it has debased us.

Trump as a politician is a genius, but as a leader he is an idiot.
How far have we fallen that politics has nothing to do with leadership?

How much further still will we fall before the natural truth reasserts itself because make no mistake reality does not care for our politics or our beliefs, the storm will not wait patiently for us to acknowledge its existence and when the wrath of circumstances come us as they have come to Texas will we also be unprepared?
 

Rook

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He did not carve out an empire, nuke a country, or leave piles of corpses for the vultures to feast on. He did not create a utopia, nor did he instigate a civil war.

In terms of history, his impact has been social and very public, definitely gaining the most global media attention of any other US Prez cos of this and that. If you watch the 2016 republican primary debates, you can see how bumbling, inept, unsure and uncharismatic the other folks were. They were not smooth talkers, not bombastic, and they did not have the spirit Trump had. Regardless of policy, regardless of his own inability, he proved that the normal politician would barely be able to win an argument with a grocery clerk, much less conduct successful diplomatic negotiations.
He deserved to win not cos he's good or benevolent or whatever, but because he, politically inexperienced, talked loud and simple enough to get the votes and get in.

I grew up consciously with three US Prezs in my life, and I would rank Trump above Bush Jr in terms of entertainment value, with the amiable Barack Obama coming in at a boring third.

Does he deserve pity? I don't give a fuck. Obama droned Yemenis, Bush lied and invaded Iraq, etc. etc. What is pity?

I've never met these folks, I find them to be political creatures in an age that needs pragmatic and open-eyed operators. Why not reserve pity for hard-working folk losing their jobs, sick folk not able to pay med bills, and so on?

Biden is another fossil thrust into the ivory throne, these dudes are old as fuck and they exist in a world that changes every day. It's all a big joke in the end, like kids lining up for a football match and getting chosen, but instead of choosing the smart and strong, the selectors go down the line one by one, picking fossil after fossil cos that's the system, cos it's your turn to drive, bud.

Trump's just a guy, but the world became obsessed with him; just another outflow of the celebrity disease. The way paparazzi film Hollywood folk, that's how I see the entire affair.

It's not about economics, it's not about pragmatism, not even about ideology at the core, but about emotion and personality.

In a hundred years, it will be just another footnote in history, and a somewhat surreal one, but not that impressive in the grand scheme of things. Trump did not pardon Assange or Snowden (would his handlers have allowed it?), all he was was a dude who got himself on reality TV after deciding long ago he wanted to be prez. He took his chance, got the votes, and became an amateur politician for four years.

When he ran, Trump was a guy I vaguely remembered seeing once on TV where he's firing folk. Now, he's some sort of boogeyman/patzi/Arch-evil.

Meh, just another dude. He was good clickbait, the media companies lapped up the views, the oligarchs salivated at the distraction he served as -- business as usual.

His biggest impact was societal, but these themes have been brewing in the US for a long time. Do you think America's cultural atmosphere would have been more stable had Clinton won in 2016?
 

Cognisant

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He almost instigated a civil war, an angry mob invading the senate building to trying to overturn the result of an election is as close to a civil war in the US as I've ever seen.

And the whole BLM thing seemed like a powder keg that could go off at any moment.

Why are you downplaying this, I never said Trump boogeyman/patzi/Arch-evil, I said he's a perfect example of everything that's wrong with democracy and for the most part you seem to agree with me so why are you downplaying this?

What is your point exactly, what are you recommending?

You keep reiterating that this is no big deal to you but the textwall begs to differ, I think you're not being honest with us, I think you're being very political.
 

Rook

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TL;DR: I'm just spouting bullshit sans rhyme or reason.


Hmmm. Okay. Here's what I tried to say, in short: It is no big deal, but I'm still ranting about it. I must admit, haven't been following much news 2018-2020, so not clued up with everything.

Compared to Darwin, Einstein, Oppenheimer, Hitler, Ghenghis Khan, Alexander, Ceasar, Augustus, Catherine, Napoleon, Montogomery, Churchill, Cleopatra etc. etc. Trump is a small fish, small fry, never did much of note.

I think it's all overblown, he's a dick, yeah, bombastic, yeah, but in historical terms, all the furor about him far exceeds the reality. He's more boring than the hype, is what I'm saying.

Yeah, not replying to anyone in this thread, just posting a word wall as you say. As Adaire said, pity is not an emotion applicable to such persons.

And 'Trump boogeyman/patzi/Arch-evil' is definitely a media narrative, one which bores me, because history has shown what humans are capable of, and Trump did not do much of historical note. BLM has been going on for a long time, and the cultural divide that exists in America has been developing long before Trump 2016. His election was a catalyst, definitely, but I think the trend is less due to his presidency and more due to the inherent nature of the society.

Oh, he had an accelerating effect, that's for certain, but the way I look at it, Trumpists/alt-righters/radical leftists/media addicts/insert-label-here have been the driving force behind the radical societal changes -- the populace itself, with increased political involvement and exposure from all walks of life due to the digital age we live in.

I am being political by posting about politics I guess, but I'm not recommending anything. I'm saying Trump is old news, and his presidency wasn't the total circus of entertainment it could have been, just a lot of whinging and ineptitude from both sides with a final climax that could have been more spectacular. If the capitol burned, it would have been a truly historic event, and I would write differently.

I follow politics like one would follow sports or a TV show, it's history in motion, and the more chaotic and unpredictable, the more I enjoy it. I would rather have a guy like Sanders instead of Biden, there's more narrative potential, or a fresh face with fresh ideas that do not toe the age-old party line. I was rooting for Sanders vs. Trump 2016, it would have been a cool debate.

These are interesting times, and this topic has been ridden so hard that the horse's knees have given in. I'm just getting a last ride on a dead pony, I guess.

Now, current geopolitics, that's an interesting topic.
 

Cognisant

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My stake in this is that the Republican/Democrat bullshit is depressingly similar to what's happening (in Australia) with the Liberal National Party (our Republicans) and the Labor Party (our Democrats). There's the dominant party that's in bed with the media (hell it's the same fucking guy, somebody needs to shoot Rupert Murdoch) that's very good at the spin game, and then there's the lesser evil party which don't have the financial support or high functioning psychopathy necessary to succeed.

I'm sorry if this doesn't entertain you but the Liberal (conservative) party has been steadily destroying my nation for decades and they're clearly getting tips from the Republican playbook. It's getting so fucking bad that I might lose my Gmail account soon because they're trying to push through BLATANTLY CORRUPT laws that will force Google to pull their services from Australia. That business I want to start next year depends heavily on the speed of people's internet connections and from its inception the LNP have done everything they can to undermine the NBN (National Broadband Network) because it threatens their fuckbuddies at Telstra, the Australian equivalent of AT&T and no less incompetent/corrupt.

It's so bad I'm seriously considering moving to New Zealand while I still can so I can still be part of the free world and actually do business without living in fear of what asinine bullshit the government will do next.
 

Rook

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I feel you Cog, I grew up politically cynical, and always assume the worst of a government, so I might sound a bit harsh at times.

Lots of corrupt shit going on, and when we get fucked for their greed, it ain't funny. Speaking out about it is right.

I hope things get better and people get Telstra and their pocket pedagogues to fuck off. If not, being a Kiwi is chill. Good luck with your business.
 

Puffy

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I'm unsure if pity is a good thing to give someone in general. When I feel pity it implies to me that I feel above that person, like my pity is a form of charity or scraps off my plate I'm willing to share with them as a way of reminding them and me that I'm above them. Pity implies a kind of resentment towards the person pitied, a sign that I haven't yet forgiven that person, so it's ultimately a way of exchanging negativity with someone. Which doesn't solve anything, just creates more negativity.

I feel like empathy, compassion and forgiveness are better things to aim for - for all people - as sentiments rooted in love. Love is unconditional, which means that everyone is fundamentally deserving of it including Donald Trump. Learning to be and express from that place is a process that takes time as forgiveness can't happen automatically but it's a better thing to aim for than pity I think.
 

The Grey Man

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I agree with Rook: meh. Anti-Trump hysteria serves mainly to distract from the legitimate grievances that made his campaign successful in the first place. The media moguls who painted him as the antichrist are as much a part of 'the establishment' as anyone.
 

Glaerhaidh

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Why would you pity anyone who squandered potential to do something good in a position of power?

Personally I don't care, I erased him from my mental landscape the moment he left office, he doesn't exist as far as I'm concerned. All I want for his successor is to fix his mistakes, help people with covid, strengthen the dollar and stop printing money before it adversely affects the global economy.
 

scorpiomover

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When I hear about serial killers, the neighbours usually say "He was such a nice, quiet fellow. Always kept himself to himself. Never bothered anyone."
 

scorpiomover

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The problem is that truth has become relative, specifically relative to how much someone wants to believe it (how emotionally invested they are in it being true or false) and to what degree they can be certain of it or rather how much uncertainty they can get away with. A politician can take a matter of clear right and wrong and obfuscate it, turn a one sided issue into a two sided issue and even if that other side is utterly ridiculous it doesn’t matter because as long as the debate continues it sows uncertainty. Then the politician spins a narrative, a new truth that appeals to people’s biases, it could be someone to blame, it could be a conspiracy theory, it could be the promise that if we just do this one thing everything else will sort itself out, anything so long as it’s more palatable than the actual truth.

The fact is people choose what they want to believe and when given the choice between a truth they dislike and a palatable lie they need only the pretence of uncertainty to excuse themselves from reality, to believe whatever it is they wish to believe.
How much of that wasn't true 20 years ago?
I think that fundamentally this is a cultural issue, the western world has become indolent and self-entitled in our individualism, we have put the individual’s freedoms upon such a pedestal that it is no longer considered politically correct to tell people that they’re wrong or deluded even when they are.
It's very PC to criticise people. It's just not PC to tell left-wingers that they are wrong, even when they are wrong, and it's not PC to admit that right-wingers are right about anything, in case either of those strengthens the position of anti-Democratic, fascist, alt-right, far-right fanatics.

We’ve become so caught up in the narrative of the underdog overcoming adversity that we’ve fired the gatekeepers, brought down the ivory towers of academia and intellectualism, demanded equal respect be given to madmen and crackpots as our most wise and learned and it has debased us.
The narrative of the underdog has not changed. The method changed.

It used to be "Education! Education! Education is the answer!"

Then it was "Minorities don't do well at school because only the winners get medals. Everyone should get medals!"

Trump as a politician is a genius, but as a leader he is an idiot.
How far have we fallen that politics has nothing to do with leadership?
Politics is the governship of the public. Politics is all about leadership.

What you call "politics", refers to "spin".
 

sushi

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Pompeo and pence will continue his political line when they run for office, so its not for nothing.
 

Old Things

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I haven't quite figured out who was behind breaking into the Capitol, but I'm not sure it matters at this point.

I feel like Trump was in fact the catalyst for things to go very wrong in the united states. What's more, is I think it is pretty pathetic that Trump was objectively afraid at what was going to happen because of the break in at the Capitol.

Trump is scared and I doubt he will run for office again. That doesn't mean he hasn't made some powerful friends while being in the Prez, it just means he has alternative means of stroking himself while cowering in the closet.
 
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