Unconditional Love

[Tyria]

Is there such a thing as unconditional love? If you have experienced it, what kind of relationship was it in (familial, romantic, etc.)

Do you think that it is important to have unconditional love for others?

 

[Ashenstar]

Hmm I have never experienced unconditional love.
My grandmother even told me as a little girl "You know I love you Christina, but not when you're bad" <--- if you think about it that is a really messed up thing to say to a four year old.

My mother never said that to me specifically, but it became very clear to me and it still is that her love for me is conditional.

So, never really experiencing it, I don't feel qualified to say whether or not I have had unconditional love for someone else. Is it possible that it's one of those concepts a human must learn very early on in order to learn it at all? I mean, humans can learn anything, but there is this .. critical period I believe in child development (reaching back years into high school si-kology) and I'm curious if unconditional love needs to be learned in this time in order for the person to fully grasp it.

 

[Artifice Orisit]

I don't understand conditional love.

If I'm willing to tell someone I love them then it's still true regardless of my emotional state, heck I can loathe someone and still love them, because emotional states are transitory, my values are not. Of course loving someone doesn’t mean I'll automatically forgive any of their transgressions against me, quite the opposite in fact, it means I'll go to great lengths to make them understand what they've done and why it was wrong.

For a loved one I'll always seek reconciliation, but that can be a very long path.

 

[Ashenstar]

Of course loving someone doesn’t mean I'll automatically forgive any of their transgressions against me, quite the opposite in fact, it means I'll go to great lengths to make them understand what they've done and why it was wrong.

Very interesting. I think with most people it's quite the opposite, but honestly, your take on transgressions from loved ones seems much more logical.

 

[EditorOne]

What Cognisant said.

Caveat: Those of us on the "really can't deal with emotions very well" end of the scale need to be careful who ends up lavished with "unconditional love." It can be like a faucet in a nightmare: You turn it on but it won't turn off. Speaking logically, it's sometimes, in some ways, just asking to be abused.

My wife, my kids, and my dogs get unconditional love. The cats are still on probation.

 

[420MuNkEy]

Life, and therefore any emotion experienced during it, is conditional.

Now that I have refuted it for everyone who doesn't believe in an afterlife or re-incarnation, I will try to do the same for those that do.

I define love as: A strong and positive emotion of affection, regard, and devotion.
Given this definition, one cannot simultaneously apply an emotion that directly contradicts it. However, one can assume that once whatever is causing the 'negative' emotion is dealt with (mentally or however), one will resume loving. This does not mean that the love was unconditional, as there was clearly a point where 'love' didn't apply.

Everything is conditional.

 

[Da Blob]

I see it this way as an inversion/reflection of the the two great commandments.
(converting the noun, self to the verb, self...)

To Self your neighbor as your Love and To Self God with all of your Love.

Anyone or anything One 'Loves" is a part of One's Self. The problem is , that some of Us do not truly Love our Selves - and our 'loved' ones as a part of that unloved Self, end up suffering from our own Self-esteem or lack thereof...

The challenge is to be able to love One's Self 'unconditionally' then expand that Self to include Others through the exercise of Love...

 

[snowqueen]

What Cognisant said.

Caveat: Those of us on the "really can't deal with emotions very well" end of the scale need to be careful who ends up lavished with "unconditional love." It can be like a faucet in a nightmare: You turn it on but it won't turn off. Speaking logically, it's sometimes, in some ways, just asking to be abused.

oh yes, I know EXACTLY what you mean. I think this is my number one problem when dating actually. The funny thing about 'F-types' is that they are very good at NOT getting emotionally attached to people - it's kind of counter-intuitive and something I'm only just beginning to understand. As long as one is being an emotionally cold INTP it's ok, but if that tap (faucet) is turned on too early, they back off and run a mile while I just turn into a snivelling mess of despair and self-loathing. This is why I'm seriously thinking of giving up dating.

To answer the OP, I believe love can be unconditional, but never relationships. I have learned that despite my feelings towards someone, I can still demand to be treated decently and refuse to be abused or taken advantage of.

 

[EditorOne]

"As long as one is being an emotionally cold INTP it's ok, but if that tap (faucet) is turned on too early, they back off and run a mile while I just turn into a snivelling mess of despair and self-loathing. This is why I'm seriously thinking of giving up dating."

Yup. Except we aren't emotion-less. Could be worse to do without than to do it wrong. Hard to say.

One suspects an INTP life coach could rapidly become a millionaire. I don't mean a life coach who is an INTP; I mean some one who coaches INTPs through the "emotions" part of the rest of the world's existence. Right now when it comes to emotions we're often kind of like monkeys handed a pack of matches. Maybe we'll build a fire and cook food and have light to read at night; more than likely our lack of understanding will lead to burnt fingers or perhaps the entire forest on fire. Dangerous, mysterious things, those emotions.

 

[Deleted member 1424]

If you unconditionally love someone; you hardly have a choice in the matter. If you could chose, then surely there would be a point at some extrema where it would be revoked. Unconditional love is when you cannot bring yourself to stop loving someone, though you desperately want to. Even though you hate them, even if they are the worst type of person. It's really not as pretty of an emotion/state as most people would have you believe.

The antithesis of love is not hate, but apathy and indifference. The people you love and hate have some form of emotional power over you. If they still retain power over you despite your best efforts, then you love or hate them unconditionally(most likely both).

In my own case I can only be sure I love one person unconditionally; but that's only because the other ones I love have not yet been so cruel as to test the limit.

 

[Felan]

For me unconditional love is transitory, a moment lasting a blink or even months.

 

[420MuNkEy]

For me unconditional love is transitory, a moment lasting a blink or even months.

That doesn't make any sense. If it's unconditional love, it's inherently everlasting. Something cannot be unconditional and have an expiration date, as the expiration date is itself a condition.

 

[Da Blob]

I do not know if we have a choice in whom we actually love. I agree with Adaire in this matter. For example I love my siblings and there was only one decent human being in the whole lot of them.
I loved my first wife and she was a cruel sadistic poor imitation of a human being. I did not even Like her - yet I found my self in love with her. I think the worst part of that is that I fear that I still love her after all these years. In fact, one of my greatest fears is that some day she might appear on my door step or somehow find me on the net...

 

[Artifice Orisit]

I do not know if we have a choice in whom we actually love. I agree with Adaire in this matter.

Maybe it's a personal thing?
For me it's a choice, but one that cannot be unmade.

 

[Zero]

I don't know if I believe in "unconditional love", but I think there is something we tend to call "unconditional love". I think it's more like "responsibility love". I think when people feel an obligation or responsibility to another person or creature (for instance, pets), we have an unconditional love for them. But it's an agreement of responsibility and the more responsible we feel for the them the more we "love" them.

For instance, a pet can do bad things, like pee on the carpet, tear things up, etc... but we might not hold them responsible. They are our responsibility and sometimes we find that it's our fault when something goes wrong. With a child that sense is even more so. A child does something bad and we don't just get rid of them. We try to understand them, we try to teach them, we try to help them... Sometimes this is ideal to women as a sort of relationship, they want someone to be (feel) responsible for them.

But then I wonder what sort of respect this is? I mean the more you respect someone, do you feel responsible for them? That's kind of a confusing thing to me.

I don't necessarily like being reminded that I'm my parents responsibility when they ask what they did wrong in raising me.

 

[shoeless]

If you unconditionally love someone; you hardly have a choice in the matter. If you could chose, then surely their would be a point at some extrema where it would revoked. Unconditional love is when you cannot bring yourself to stop loving someone, though you desperately want to. Even though you hate them, even if they are the worst type of person. It's really not as pretty of an emotion/state as most people would have you believe.

The antithesis of love is not hate, but apathy and indifference. The people you love and hate have some form of emotional power over you. If they still retain power over you despite your best efforts, then you love or hate them unconditionally(most likely both).

In my own case I can only be sure I love one person unconditionally; but that's only because the other ones I love have not yet been so cruel as to test the limit.

i could not have possibly put this better myself.

i have been in that situation. the love/hate situation as it applies a significant weight on my life. it was directed toward that long-haired gentleman i posted a picture of in the physical attraction thread.

after so much time that's passed, i don't deny any love i ever felt for him at all, and on some level, i'm sure it's still there. even though he was horrible for me in so, so many ways. you just can't help it.

that's unconditional.

 

[transformers]

Morality usually trumps love. If the person you loved did something unforgivable, like raped and murdered hundreds of children, you are probably going to love them less and would probably feel some degree of hate. If you still totally loved them after that point, it means you've compromised your ethics in favor of them, and that is not a good position to be in imo.

 

[Nicholas A. A. E.]

It's possible to love someone while still despising their actions. This manifests in trying to help the person stop doing those actions. So, loving an immoral person isn't necessarily immoral.

As for unconditional love, everyone experiences it. God 's unconditional love of us defines our existence. </sermon>

 

[snowqueen]

I don't know if I believe in "unconditional love", but I think there is something we tend to call "unconditional love". I think it's more like "responsibility love". I think when people feel an obligation or responsibility to another person or creature (for instance, pets), we have an unconditional love for them. But it's an agreement of responsibility and the more responsible we feel for the them the more we "love" them.

For instance, a pet can do bad things, like pee on the carpet, tear things up, etc... but we might not hold them responsible. They are our responsibility and sometimes we find that it's our fault when something goes wrong. With a child that sense is even more so. A child does something bad and we don't just get rid of them. We try to understand them, we try to teach them, we try to help them... Sometimes this is ideal to women as a sort of relationship, they want someone to be (feel) responsible for them.

This is a very good insight - it's the basis of co-dependent relationships which are deeply unhealthy. I have a tendency towards such relationships having been brought up with an over-inflated sense of my power over other people due to being held responsible for every emotion my mother felt. I knew this when she said things like 'you make me unhappy because you [insert virtually everything I did/thought/felt that wasn't what she had decided I should be doing/thinking/feeling]'. This gives a child an overinflated sense of control over others. Children who grow up in households with parents who take responsibility for their own emotions etc. do not lay this stuff on their children so you are less likely to think you have to feel responsible for others when you become an adult.

But then I wonder what sort of respect this is? I mean the more you respect someone, do you feel responsible for them? That's kind of a confusing thing to me.

It's the antithesis of respect. When you respect someone you surely credit them with being able to live their own life?

It's easier said than done though when you've been conditioned from birth to be responsible for a parent's emotions. If you really stop and think about it though how utterly reprehensible it is to make a child think it can be responsible for the emotional state of an adult. My father used to say things like 'you are making your mother sick'. Wow - I had superpowers!!

 

[Deleted member 1424]

I have a tendency towards such relationships having been brought up with an over-inflated sense of my power over other people due to being held responsible for every emotion my mother felt. I knew this when she said things like 'you make me unhappy because you [insert virtually everything I did/thought/felt that wasn't what she had decided I should be doing/thinking/feeling]'. This gives a child an overinflated sense of control over others. Children who grow up in households with parents who take responsibility for their own emotions etc. do not lay this stuff on their children so you are less likely to think you have to feel responsible for others when you become an adult.

It's downright eerie how much I relate to this Snow. If my Mother wasn't happy it was always someone else's fault. It was even true for my Father, though in a more subtle way. I was therefore obligated to always wear a cheerful mask and put their emotional state before my own. Otherwise I was blamed for their dissatisfaction and for ruining the 'perfect family' illusion they clung so desperately to.

Indeed this causes me to overestimate the potential damage I can do to people irl. So I generally tend to walk on eggshells and I become exceptionally gentle in any remotely serious situation. This probably sounds INFP, but I often find myself having to chose between being honest and straight forward to sheltering others from anything that can be construed as negative. Being indecisive as I am, this makes me very very evasive.

It always surprises me when people turn out not to be made of emotional glass, even though it happens all the damn time.
[/sidetrack]

 

[Dark_Amphibian]

Very interesting. I think with most people it's quite the opposite, but honestly, your take on transgressions from loved ones seems much more logical.

I totally agree with you. And Cog (I take the same approach). It definitely limits those who make a good partner for me. It's really easy for conflicting views to result in a constant low-level stream of behaviors that hurt feelings on both sides.

 

[KazeCraven]

Anytime I hear the phrase "unconditional love" I can't help but think the wrong concept is being argued. To be technical about it, I would have to take a similar stance as 420Munkey and say that love will always be conditional, so the love we are actually wanting to talk about is, at best, misnamed. However, I also think that, as it is often used, unconditional love really means something as scary as what Adaire talks about (loving someone to the extent that you can hate him at the same time). Aside from being given to innocent children, I think unconditional love is quite dangerous without taking into account what it means to love someone.

Usually the conditions are:
If you are X person (dog, etc.), then I love you.
If you perform A and/or not B, then I love you.
Conversely, if I don't do Y, then I must not love you.

If we take all those conditions away, it's not just that love isn't limited to just particular people doing particular things, but rather that love is radiated to anything and everything. Essentially, I view this as a state of consciousness because nothing that anyone does can change your love. Someone in this state doesn't have to worry about being taken advantage of though, because he doesn't "have" to do anything to love. If someone treats you like trash, you can leave that person with love. I suppose it must sound rather "New Age-y" but then again I am not suggesting that one should aspire to reach this state. I would imagine that it feels good though, if attainable.

As for the original question, I would suggest that is important to treat others ethically, but that loving another person isn't important per se (unless you consider love as actions).

 

[420MuNkEy]

I think people are confusing 'Unconditional love' with just plain 'love'. Is it possible to forgive someone you once loved for a transgression and resume loving them again? Of course. This is not unconditional love. Unconditional love is where you love something/someone so much that under absolutely no circumstance conceivable would the emotion of love not apply (even if just an instant).

So imagine you 'love' someone for many years and have not stopped loving them since you started. Then one day they kidnap you, drag you to a dungeon, and leave you there while they go out and collect everyone else in your life that you love and begin murdering them in front of you and forcing you to watch. Unconditional love requires that even given the circumstances, your love for that person never even pauses.

I don't see how anyone can take such a claim seriously.

 

[Ombat]

My mother has always treated me as an object of "unconditional love" and has never blamed me (or anyone) for her emotions, contrary to what Snowqueen experienced as a child.

My grandmother has even said, "Even if you were rotten, I would still love you." And honestly, she's not a sweet woman.

This makes me uncomfortable. It seems more like responsibility than actual love [to agree with Zero], and isn't logical. I can understand it, but I don't know if it fits the definition of "unconditional love" and might instead, be something else.

But we can still love people who have wronged us, only given the fact that we loved them before (obviously). I think it's easier to reflect on moments of happiness in a relationship than moments of hardship, and may become "blinded" so to speak, by these happier times. I don't know.

 

[snowqueen]

I love my children as near to unconditionally as humanly possible - obviously if one of them did what 420M suggests, I'd struggle to maintain that. Interestingly both of them went through phases of asking hypothetical questions like 'If I murdered my sister, would you still love me?' and 'If I decided to shave my head, would you still love me?' To the latter I replied 'of course I would - even more because you'd give me something else to laugh at you about' and to the former I said 'that's tricky because you're my daughter so I love you but I'd want to kill anyone who harmed one of my children so if you killed your sister I'd want to kill you but then I wouldn't want to harm you because you're also my child but I'd be feeling murderous towards you so I really don't know whether I'd still love you, do you think I should?' She answered 'no you shouldn't' which was interesting.

 

[Felan]

That doesn't make any sense. If it's unconditional love, it's inherently everlasting. Something cannot be unconditional and have an expiration date, as the expiration date is itself a condition.

I didn't say it had an expiration date. I said it was transitory, for me at least.

 

[420MuNkEy]

I didn't say it had an expiration date. I said it was transitory.

Transitory, meaning short-lived or temporary, meaning it has an end.

 

[Felan]

Transitory, meaning short-lived or temporary, meaning it has an end.

Correct.

I can say I have loved unconditionally. I can also say I'm happy. I can't say every moment of my life is happy.

 

[420MuNkEy]

Correct.

I can say I have loved unconditionally. I can also say I'm happy. I can't say every moment of my life is happy.

Unconditional isn't just a word you can attach to anything, it has meaning.

That's like saying you're giving something away for free for $10. Given the fact that you're charging, it's not free. It doesn't make any sense in the context you use it in.

 

[Da Blob]

So the issue is: can there be unconditional Love as opposed to its 'opposite' (conditional Love)?

I would affirm my prior statement. That if one removes the condition of Choice from Love - it becomes unconditional....(?)

It is a matter of Self. Freud wrote about the concept of Body Image, how one's body image most likely contains other individuals. re: "I would rather have an arm amputated than 'lose' on of my children" is a statement denoting the relative importance of "body parts"...

Is someone or something a part of you? Then if you love your Self, you love them (unconditionally)

 

[420MuNkEy]

So the issue is: can there be unconditional Love as opposed to its 'opposite' (conditional Love)?

I would affirm my prior statement. That if one removes the condition of Choice from Love - it becomes unconditional....(?)

It is a matter of Self. Freud wrote about the concept of Body Image, how one's body image most likely contains other individuals. re: "I would rather have an arm amputated that 'lose' on of my children" is a statement denoting the relative importance of "body parts"...

Is someone or something a part of you? Then if you love your Self, you love them (unconditionally)

Loving ones self is an example conditional love (More commonly referred to as simply 'love'). If love of ones self was unconditional, there would be no surgeries, beauty products, or many other things.

 

[Felan]

Unconditional isn't just a word you can attach to anything, it has meaning.

That's like saying you're giving something away for free for $10. Given the fact that you're charging, it's not free. It doesn't make any sense in the context you use it in.

Actually people give stuff away for free for $10 all the time, "We are giving away samples for free, all you pay is shipping and handling." :P

Unconditional isn't eternal. It merely states I am not putting conditions on it. Unconditional is not constant. The sun doesn't shine unconditionally (it is an ackward and bordering on nonsensical phrase) though in human lifespans it could be said to shine eternally. There are times I loved someone unconditionally, I suppose it could even be said that I still love them though I don't associate with them.

Taking your scenario where they kidnap you and kill everyone you love in front of you, I can well imagine it would be possible to still love them but stop or even kill them. Just as it would be possible to kill someone you love unconditionally because they are in perpetual pain.

 

[Da Blob]

Loving ones self is an example conditional love (More commonly referred to as simply 'love'). If love of ones self was unconditional, there would be no surgeries, beauty products, or many other things.

Truth! and therein lies perhaps the major challenge of our existence - to learn how to honestly love our Selves. We, as humans, are bombarded by input from our environment, which basically has one message "You are inadequate and not worthy of loving!" Virtually all advertisements use this ploy the viewer is led to believe that somehow they become less inadequate by purchasing the advertised product. Needless to say almost all social institutions preach this message. In school, you are inadequate if you do not get "A's, As a teenager you are inadequate if you do not get laid, drunk or high often enough. You are inadequate if you are a Democrat, you are inadequate if you are a Republican. No matter what you say or do, someone is going to brand you as being inadequate...

Needless to say, if everyone believed that he or she were adequate and worthy of loving JUST AS HE OR SHE IS, we would live in a different world...

 

[Felan]

Loving ones self is an example conditional love (More commonly referred to as simply 'love'). If love of ones self was unconditional, there would be no surgeries, beauty products, or many other things.

So a burn victim wouldn't love themself if they got facial reconstruction done? That is if your argument about unconditional is unconditional.

 

[sagewolf]

I think unconditional love is possible. I don't know if I have ever experienced it (although my parents probably deserve it from me, and I'm a little unsure of what it would imply to deserve someone's love in the first place). I'm not even sure if it's possible to love a person. It is certainly possible to love your idea of who a person is, but it seems impossible for that to ever be the same thing as who the person actually believes themselves to be, or who they actually are. We love our impressions of others, then attribute and express that love to the person themselves, even when those impressions are based on years or decades of familiarity. If we actually knew every last iota of a person's identity and being, that would be true love for a person, rather than our own idea of them,and that might be unconditional love, too.

I don't know. I can't even define 'love' in the first place, so I hardly know what it is when you add a modifier to it.

 

[420MuNkEy]

Actually people give stuff away for free for $10 all the time, "We are giving away samples for free, all you pay is shipping and handling." :P

This assumes that it needs to be shipped, in which case you are still getting whatever has been given for free, but you just need to have it transported to you.

Unconditional isn't eternal. It merely states I am not putting conditions on it. Unconditional is not constant. The sun doesn't shine unconditionally (it is an ackward and bordering on nonsensical phrase) though in human lifespans it could be said to shine eternally. There are times I loved someone unconditionally, I suppose it could even be said that I still love them though I don't associate with them.

'Unconditional' is inherently eternal, due to the fact that time is itself a condition. Furthermore, if it's completely boundless, then there is nothing conceivable that could cause it to end. If it did end, that obviously happened under certain conditions (i.e. making it conditional).
Also, we know the life of the sun is finite, so anyone making a statement as to it being eternal is either exaggerating or falsifying information.

Truth! and therein lies perhaps the major challenge of our existence - to learn how to honestly love our Selves. We, as humans, are bombarded by input from our environment, which basically has one message "You are inadequate and not worthy of loving!" Virtually all advertisements use this ploy the viewer is led to believe that somehow they become less inadequate by purchasing the advertised product. Needless to say almost all social institutions preach this message. In school, you are inadequate if you do not get "A's, As a teenager you are inadequate if you do not get laid, drunk or high often enough.

Needless to say, if everyone believed that he or she were adequate and worthy of loving JUST AS HE OR SHE IS, we would live in a different world...

Different? Yes.
Better? If someone is being killed by their appendix and refuses to get it removed, because they 'love' it unconditionally, I would hardly call that better. I think it would be nice if some people didn't focus so much on trivial stuff like their appearance, but a total belief that ones self is perfect is just delusional, and I happen to think that truth is better than delusion.

So a burn victim wouldn't love themself if they got facial reconstruction done? That is if your argument about unconditional is unconditional.

My argument is that if love of ones self was unconditional such things would have no demand. If someone loves themselves unconditionally and has a burnt face, why would they waste time and money on surgery when they already love everything about themselves?

 

[sagewolf]

420MuNkEy: There's a difference between loving one's Self and loving one's body. I generally do not care much about my body: it's like my car. It gets me places and hasn't given me too many problems. I have occasional body issues, but they don't change how I feel about me. Me-- that is, my Self-- is a different matter, and I have a lot of difficulty doing what Da Blob has advocated: simply liking and accepting my own being for what I am. Body/health issues are sometimes an expression for dislike of the Self, but in some cases they are simply shallow aesthetic concerns, unrelated to deeper issues of Self love, hatred or indifference. And that is clearly the category someone with an inflamed appendix-- or, quite likely, a burn vitim-- seeking medical intervention falls into.

 

[420MuNkEy]

420MuNkEy: There's a difference between loving one's Self and loving one's body. I generally do not care much about my body: it's like my car. It gets me places and hasn't given me too many problems. I have occasional body issues, but they don't change how I feel about me. Me-- that is, my Self-- is a different matter, and I have a lot of difficulty doing what Da Blob has advocated: simply liking and accepting my own being for what I am. Body/health issues are sometimes an expression for dislike of the Self, but in some cases they are simply shallow aesthetic concerns, unrelated to deeper issues of Self love, hatred or indifference. And that is clearly the category someone with an inflamed appendix-- or, quite likely, a burn vitim-- seeking medical intervention falls into.

What makes up ones self is ones body. The idea of self in generated in the brain (which is a part of ones body), but if you get stabbed in the leg you (you as in yourself) get stabbed.

 

[sagewolf]

The brain is only a part of one's body. I could lose a leg and have it replaced with a prothesis, and still be me, my Self. Indeed, I could probably have all my memories placed into a robotic body, given the appropriate advancement of technology, and still be myself. If our Self is based upon a mixture of our memories (which influence our opinions, our own codes of ethics, and our convictions), our perception of the world, and our own innate personality traits, then the only parts of the body innate to the Self would be the input organs (all sensing organs) and our brains. Everything else can be replaced with no consequence to the Self, assuming no major health issues came of the replacement.

Also, this is getting kind of off-topic.

 

[420MuNkEy]

The brain is only a part of one's body. I could lose a leg and have it replaced with a prothesis, and still be me, my Self. Indeed, I could probably have all my memories placed into a robotic body, given the appropriate advancement of technology, and still be myself. If our Self is based upon a mixture of our memories (which influence our opinions, our own codes of ethics, and our convictions), our perception of the world, and our own innate personality traits, then the only parts of the body innate to the Self would be the input organs (all sensing organs) and our brains. Everything else can be replaced with no consequence to the Self, assuming no major health issues came of the replacement.

Also, this is getting kind of off-topic.

I agree, the idea of ones 'self' is not purely limited to the physical, but that concept of self almost always includes the entirety of ones body.

/derail

 

[Ghost1986]

being an emotionally and socially retarded, i will honestly say i dont know.

but at this time i assume not.

i have delt with 2 women i had, at the time, said i was in love with. but it obviously wasn't unconditional sense i no longer love them. all though if the canadian came to my life i would have a serious problem i think.

i have also delt with other people who i say i love but feel really not connect too. my parents are a prime example of this. when i say "i love you" to them it feels more like chore. but then again i sometimes think of having my own kids and how i might be willing to ignor most of all of what they do. so perhaps undonditional love can be one sided from parent to child?

there may also be a cultural or enviromental element to it. i grew up in a small town where i never fit in and was always treated differntly for only being half american, even by my own family so perhaps seeing a culture that believes in undoncition love but not praticapating in it and having no real options kept me from devlouping that.

i also have a group of women i call "my women". their just a group of women i care a lot for and might be some of the few people i would ever say i love and mean it. but i know if they pissed me off enough i would have no problem tossing them asside like a leaf and never think of them again.

once again the emotional and social retard is of no help.

 

[Zero]

I guess I'm in the same boat as Ombat. My parents never made me responsible for their emotions. They were responsible for me and my decisions, which I found very irritating. So... eventually it was easier to adjust how much I communicated with them and what I communicated with them.

I feel like that's pretty normal though.

My mom grew up in a situation where her parents hardly took responsibility for her. Both my parents were kind of that way though.

 

[Da Blob]

Re: Self and Body. A person's Freudian body image really does not concern the physical body as much as the emotional body. There is a stage of life where the division or discernment that One's body is a separate 'thing' has not yet occurred... An infant thinks that a breast/bottle is a part of its Self (as well as the person holding the bottle or offering the breast...) This 'primitive' POV gains inertia and continues for quite a while into childhood and perhaps even into adulthood at an unconscious level...

 

[420MuNkEy]

Re: Self and Body. A person's Freudian body image really does not concern the physical body as much as the emotional body. There is a stage of life where the division or discernment that One's body is a separate 'thing' has not yet occurred... An infant thinks that a breast/bottle is a part of its Self (as well as the person holding the bottle or offering the breast...) This 'primitive' POV gains inertia and continues for quite a while into childhood and perhaps even into adulthood at an unconscious level...

An infant is not aware of the concept of 'self' (as demonstrated by the mirror test and rouge test experiments). Maybe you are using 'self' in a different way than I am. I'd roughly define 'self' as the sum of ones being.

 

[Felan]

'Unconditional' is inherently eternal, due to the fact that time is itself a condition. Furthermore, if it's completely boundless, then there is nothing conceivable that could cause it to end. If it did end, that obviously happened under certain conditions (i.e. making it conditional).
Also, we know the life of the sun is finite, so anyone making a statement as to it being eternal is either exaggerating or falsifying information.

When you asked me about the transitory thing did you intend anything other than to pontificate?

By the way science tends to view even the life of the universe as finite. One definition of eternal is enduring. It seems pretty reasonable to call a star eternal if you can call anything eternal.

I stand by my original assertion that it is transitory for me. I suppose if you must push your point then I think even now for those I have had unconditional love I still have such for them, even though one at least wounded me greatly. Perhaps wishing it were otherwise is the impetus for my comment of it being transitory. The strength of such, as with anything, varies and I feel it more weakly than once.

My argument is that if love of ones self was unconditional such things would have no demand. If someone loves themselves unconditionally and has a burnt face, why would they waste time and money on surgery when they already love everything about themselves?

A person that really loves themself unconditionally wouldn't let the ruin of their face after reconstruction stop them from doing the things they like doing or going in public. Such reconstructions are far from perfect.

Taking cosmetics as an example, I think for many it is a sort of social ritual that signals the anticipation of an evening out.

For cosmetic surgery there are professional reasons to get work done. Stippers with larger breasts statistically earn more money. Television personalities are expected to have perfect teeth and hair. Women with overly large breasts will get reductions to improve their well being.

You seem to be making a very wide generalization that has a kind of pop culture truth to it.

 

[Ombat]

I guess I'm in the same boat as Ombat. My parents never made me responsible for their emotions. They were responsible for me and my decisions, which I found very irritating. So... eventually it was easier to adjust how much I communicated with them and what I communicated with them.

I feel like that's pretty normal though.

My mom grew up in a situation where her parents hardly took responsibility for her. Both my parents were kind of that way though.

Same with my mom. Her mother pretty much treated her like an alien, which is why I believe she overcompensates. She's told me that she wanted to be the opposite of her mother, and she is.

I suppose I feel lucky, in a way, but I think it's had some negative impacts. I've been conditioned to have an over-inflated sense of ego (my mom was also constantly trying to boost my confidence because I was born with a sight impairment) so I act arrogant, but actually think I'm worthless. I don't think this kind of "unconditional" loving is healthy if taken too far.

 

[420MuNkEy]

When you asked me about the transitory thing did you intend anything other than to pontificate?

By the way science tends to view even the life of the universe as finite. One definition of eternal is enduring. It seems pretty reasonable to call a star eternal if you can call anything eternal.

I stand by my original assertion that it is transitory for me. I suppose if you must push your point then I think even now for those I have had unconditional love I still have such for them, even though one at least wounded me greatly. Perhaps wishing it were otherwise is the impetus for my comment of it being transitory. The strength of such, as with anything, varies and I feel it more weakly than once.



A person that really loves themself unconditionally wouldn't let the ruin of their face after reconstruction stop them from doing the things they like doing or going in public. Such reconstructions are far from perfect.

Taking cosmetics as an example, I think for many it is a sort of social ritual that signals the anticipation of an evening out.

For cosmetic surgery there are professional reasons to get work done. Stippers with larger breasts statistically earn more money. Television personalities are expected to have perfect teeth and hair. Women with overly large breasts will get reductions to improve their well being.

You seem to be making a very wide generalization that has a kind of pop culture truth to it.

After reading your replies, it's painfully obvious that you either skimmed my replies or completely misunderstood them. Either way, I'm not going to bother debating this subject with you anymore, as it will just lead in circles

 

[Zero]

Same with my mom. Her mother pretty much treated her like an alien, which is why I believe she overcompensates. She's told me that she wanted to be the opposite of her mother, and she is.

I suppose I feel lucky, in a way, but I think it's had some negative impacts. I've been conditioned to have an over-inflated sense of ego (my mom was also constantly trying to boost my confidence because I was born with a sight impairment) so I act arrogant, but actually think I'm worthless. I don't think this kind of "unconditional" loving is healthy if taken too far.

My grandma is one of those quiet peacemaker types. My grandfather is a tyrant (probably bipolar too. He just loses it sometimes). My mom had other siblings and the house was always chaotic, so she did what she could to separate herself from it. She had some responsibility with her younger sisters and trying to help them with homework. She didn't want to turn out like either of her parents. She kind of balanced it out I think.

My dad's side of the family is as pretty straightforward as you can get. Grandpa was a quiet mechanic, dad's pretty much the same way. From what I understand my dad was the younger of two and bullied his older brother. ISTPs are kind of scary. It seems like they could have a bitterness against mankind. I think maybe they just come off that way sometimes. The ISTP females I've met seem better adjusted socially.

 

[Felan]

After reading your replies, it's painfully obvious that you either skimmed my replies or completely misunderstood them. Either way, I'm not going to bother debating this subject with you anymore, as it will just lead in circles

I have read and understood your replies. I don't appreciate the condescension though. If want to disagree that is fine, but don't pretend I don't get what you are saying.

Look words and ideas are flexible things. It seems to defeat the purpose of them to stretch them to their extreme, watch them break, and set up camp claiming that they are impossible. You've discovered the limit of the thing, well done.

The idea of unconditional love is that you don't put conditions on it. That idea is an important one as give people a very important question to ask themself. For example, is the message I send my kid that I love him but only when he excels at sports.

Any point you make about the impossibility of unconditional love stretches it to infinity or to acts utterly evil. There is a lot of room not at those limits.

 

[420MuNkEy]

The idea of unconditional love is that you don't put conditions on it. That idea is an important one as give people a very important question to ask themself. For example, is the message I send my kid that I love him but only when he excels at sports.

There isn't one thing that exists that isn't conditional. That's not stretching a word to it's extreme, that's just using it correctly without exaggerating. You love someone under the conditions required to sustain love. You may not be consciously aware that you have conditions, but they are there nonetheless.