Trust

[fullerene]

I've just seen a bunch of posts scattered throughout these boards glancing on this topic, so I wanted to consolidate them and see if I could pick anything useful up. Questions numbered so we can see what you're answering easily

1. Given a random person, where do they lie on your "trust" scale? I'm sure you don't tell them everything openly, but I'm sure you don't tell them nothing about yourself either. How open are you around the average person? (let's say, for the sake of argument, you know them to be a decent person and they're trying to make friendly conversation with you)

2. What can someone do that makes you trust them more? Less?

3. For those of you who have had serious relationships/gotten married, how did they develop, and how important is trust to them?

4. How much do other people seem to trust you? Why? (if you know)

5. How necessary is it for you to have someone else you trust completely? How necessary does it seem for other people to need someone else to trust?

6. Anything else relevant you can think of or want other people to talk about

 

[Raison D'etre]

1. They aren't even on my trust scale because I don't know them enough to judge them. Usually, if someone approaches me, I sigh and they just go away on their own. I just feel suffocated around people. I sigh because I don't want to talk to them, but also because I am trying to breathe. Instead of sigh, it is actually a gasp for breath. People just percieve it as a sigh.

If I know that they are a decent person, I give them a fake smile at some point, nod, reply with yes or no. Eventually, they get bored or assume that I can't speak english.

 

[lemonsunite]

1. I don't trust in people a lot...even if they're my friends I usually wont have them over that often, and such.

4. people trust me with everything. i don't know why, they just seem to be able to tell me anything

 

[Kidege]

Good topic. Let's see if we can draw some sound conclusions. I answered questions 1, 2, 4 and 5.


1. Close to zero. I'd talk about the weather, some generalities about job.

2. What can someone do that makes you trust them more? Less?

More? They'd have to show that they've got enough brains to understand a bit about how I think/feel. That is, not freak out when they hear complex ideas and bursts of odd humour. Even more? They'd have to work with me in some joint project so I could see what makes them tick and if I feel comfortable with it.

Over the years, if I saw they didn't sell me to my enemies or tried to off me themselves I guess I'd trust them.

Reverse it to see how I'd trust someone less. Oh, add if I catch them in lies. If they lie/cheat/get hostile the trust immediately goes back to zero.


4. How much do other people seem to trust you? Why? (if you know)

The ones I trust, trust me just fine, we talk about anything.

Colleagues trust me to get them through projects . They say I'm cool headed and knowleadgeable. This started when I finally learned to hide my wacky emotions. Instead of showing how much I don't get others emotions I project tolerance and acceptance.

Other people learn to trust me to do as I say -because I actually do as I say- and stop trying to get me to say much.


5. How necessary is it for you to have someone else you trust completely?

I've never trusted anyone completely. It'd be nice but I've learned to compartmentalize.

How necessary does it seem for other people to need someone else to trust?

It seems pretty necessary. They sit through social events they don't always enjoy, do the smalk talk, etc., just to pretend they have lots of people who understand them and/or care, even if it isn't true. When they're inevitably betrayed they try again... I don't know if they're resilient or dumb. Of course they also go and "get even", which is cruel *and* dumb.

 

[Agent Intellect]

1. Given a random person, where do they lie on your "trust" scale? I'm sure you don't tell them everything openly, but I'm sure you don't tell them nothing about yourself either. How open are you around the average person? (let's say, for the sake of argument, you know them to be a decent person and they're trying to make friendly conversation with you)

a couple weeks ago at work this guy that works in a different department sat down next to me and started trying to talk to me. i didn't know him well, but he seemed nice enough, and yet i had a very difficult time "opening up" to him. he kept asking me questions about how long i've worked there and that kind of stuff. i found i could only give him a few word answers, and when i tried to return the favor and reciprocate the question back, i really didn't care about what he answered. i wasn't trying to be an asshole, i just really couldn't bring myself to care. thats not the only time thats happened to me, just an example, but a good example of how i react to other people.

2. What can someone do that makes you trust them more? Less?

to put it simply, show me that they're capable of conversation thats worth my time. if they can get me out of my own head, i'll trust them more and let them into my strange little world (little by little) if not, the time of day is about all you'll get out of me.

3. For those of you who have had serious relationships/gotten married, how did they develop, and how important is trust to them?

i met my girlfriend through an internet video game. she was in a dark spot and i helped her out. trust is extremely important, because its long distance (like, the entire country kind of long distance). we've gotten together several times over the past 2 years.

4. How much do other people seem to trust you? Why? (if you know)

my friends, i imagine, trust me well enough. i've always been very reliable and loyal. as far as other people, maybe not so much. i imagine i don't look very trust worthy, as i'm the quiet guy with the scrubby, almost hobo look that won't say much more then a few words to anyone lol.

5. How necessary is it for you to have someone else you trust completely? How necessary does it seem for other people to need someone else to trust?

no matter how much i trust someone, there is a lot that i keep to myself. i enjoy telling people about myself, but i think i enjoy it more for the self diagnosis then to express myself emotionally. i'd say that a fairly substantial amount of my inner monologue is self diagnosis, attempting to figure out what makes myself click.

 

[Fleur]

1. Given a random person, where do they lie on your "trust" scale?
-10, because, in first place, I don`t know, what kind of human is this "random person". Second reason - people just can`t be trusted, even those, who I know well (...or, maybe, I`m paranoid alien).

2. What can someone do that makes you trust them more? Less?
Nothing, really nothing - they can`t do anything. It depends only on my personal observations about their characters and usual behaviour.

4. How much do other people seem to trust you? Why?
People always thinks of me as "honest", "righteous" and "fair", so I quess they trust me pretty much, at least, they believe in my judgements. The reason may be that I tend to more objective than subjective.

5.1. How necessary is it for you to have someone else you trust completely?
I`ll say... 5%, less than "quite necessary".

5.2.How necessary does it seem for other people to need someone else to trust?
In percentages - 60%, for average person.

 

[October]

1. Although I don't like confiding in people (who are close to me, friends) or telling private things about me - I often can't help my mouth shut and I start rambling about certain facts. I'm trying to stop doing that, but then people say I'm too secretive. But in strangers - only when are facts which to me seem unimportant and harmless. I don't usually trust people, because I've had a few bad happenings when I was little which made me trust them less.
So if it is a random person, depends on how random that person is - friends, family, acquaintance or stranger - I'd say that in the average is about + 2.

2. More? Perhaps a good deed done to me - but I doubt it. I still can't trust even my family wholly.

4. Other people seem to trust me because I don't go around gossiping and I tend to keep things to my own. But it depends the quantity of people, because I don't have a large circle of friends. And plus, I'm rather selfish and I don't really care about other people's troubles - when they come to me, I just sit and listen sometimes with my mind elsewhere. And most of them realized that and I don't bother me anymore which I don't mind.

5. For me it isn't that necessary - because I don't confide about important facts and I keep major matters inside.

 

[Vrecknidj]

I follow two rules that are often in conflict.

The Principle of Charitable Interpretation
Assume that the other person is acting, talking, believing, etc., in a reasonable manner. Charitably interpret that person's actions, words, behaviors, etc., in a way that assumes they're reasonable, trustworthy, etc.

Don't be a Fool
Remain skeptical because there are enough jerks out there to ruin your day. Don't let down your guard.

So, I end up with a "trust but verify" position regarding others.

Dave

 

[Wisp]

Depends on observations as to how much I trust people. People who dress, not normally, but just a little odd (but not extreme) and wo talk in more or less the same way, and seem to be intelligent I will trust more. Yes, I'm biased, but I do acknowledge it.

 

[Fedayeen]

my trust in people is basically nonexistent now. even "close" friends/family. i see no reason to put any trust in anyone.

and for some reason people keep putting a lot of trust in me

 

[lemonsunite]

heh...my shakespeare quote collection kknows no bounds~

"listen to many, speak to a few"

but also, this quote

"nothing can come of nothing"

 

[fullerene]

good answers... thanks (but don't let me stop you from continuing). And thank goodness october and vreck... I was starting to feel like an alien when no one else said thy generally start off giving people the benefit of the doubt in the lack of information.

I'm actually having a very tough time answering my own questions. Undoubtedly I talk way more openly to a given person more than anyone else I think I've ever met... but I don't think that constitutes trust. It's a combination of "what's the worst thing that they could do with this information," "I don't want to give anyone false impressions," and "what else would I talk about if not on a personal level. I don't know enough of what's going on with mutual acquaintances to make small talk around them or current events, so I push my questions and give my answers with the goal of pushing deeper into the person.

1. That said, it probably looks like I trust people entirely immediately... but it's more related to defending myself against hypocrisy than it is because I trust them. I think I make a snap judgment based on the tone of their voice almost immediately, though, if one jumps out at me. If none does, I'd probably put them around neutral, leaning towards "trusting."

2. To make me trust someone more motives and how much they trust me is almost everything. Intelligent views alone don't do it for me (although they help too--if someone's intelligent we tend to see eye to eye as well), but if they choose to talk about something even though (I can tell) it makes them a little uncomfortable, that does a lot to gain my confidence. If that doesn't happen though I just trust myself to be able to read motives well... which I'm on target with probably about 7/8 of the time. If I can't find a hidden agenda, there's very unlikely to be one... I'm more prone to error on the side of finding hidden agendas when there aren't any.

4. I honestly can't tell for sure. People told me nothing for quite a while, and I was always the last to hear of anything important... but I don't think it was that I was untrusted so much as out of touch. Since college when my friends all lived within a 30 second walk of each other, I get a lot of conversations with people over things I can't imagine they talk to everyone about. I'd say once people realize that I just can't do small talk and center all my interactions with people around personal conversations, they're much more comfortable. That happens a lot more easily in college than it did in high school.

5. This is probably the most puzzling of my questions for me... at times when there are people I feel like I can trust nearby (as in, I've seen/talked to them recently), I feel like I don't need anyone in that role at all. Then if no one is nearby and I've been alone for a few weeks without any contact with them, I feel like I'll go crazy if I don't just get the chance to talk to someone, quickly. I used to be fine without this, growing up and all, but I don't want the hard shell between my inner self and the world... the sad thing is that those 1/8 of the people who I misjudge seem to want the shell between us, and when that happens my trust and openness towards everyone shuts down for a few weeks almost completely.

As for other people, I can't tell in the slightest how necessary it is for them to trust someone. I think that's just a product of how much I push to break down the thick skeletal layer between us, so whether they need someone to trust or not is impossible for me to determine.

 

[Jesin]

good answers... thanks (but don't let me stop you from continuing). And thank goodness october and vreck... I was starting to feel like an alien when no one else said thy generally start off giving people the benefit of the doubt in the lack of information.

I do that.

 

[Kuu]

1) No trust at all. I basically let them lead the conversation and say nothing about myself. Depending on the person, I either get into silent, monosyllabic mode, which makes them go away very fast, or I get into silly extraverted intuitive mode, when I enjoy myself by saying smart sounding gibberish and complicated language jokes and see how people react as a means to gauge their intelligence and trustworthyness (if they laugh and go WTF, they might be decently smart and honest; if they say "that is quite interesting" and change the subject, they are hypocritical liars; if they say "oooh you are a really smart guy" then they are stupid beyond salvation.)

2) They can't do anything. I have to accept them as trusty by their behaviour, but they cannot come around and tout some "good action" so that I trust them...
Losing trust is way easier. Getting caught lying (to me) or attempts at manipulation kills everything.

3) With my first girlfriend, I really absolutely trusted her. I had never done that in my life. Trust was everything, and that was in fact what I used to tell her, that relationships are not about love, but about trust... it ended on a sour note, and even despite huge efforts on both sides, things are not the same as they used to be...

4) Few. Longer time friends seem to trust me more, but since I am very bad at sympathizing and giving emotional support, even they rarely confide in me... But when they do, I think it's because they think I am an mentally stable person, and that I keep secrets to the grave.

5) I think it is quite necessary... I can take the loneliness for several years, but I know I will eventually explode. I need to have somebody on a honest, even, intellectual level; and that person must be capable of pulling me through when the shadow feelings take over...
I think extraverts have less need for that super confidant; they distribute their needs into the multiple people they befriend, and they don't bottle up their feelings as much...

6) "Trust no one. Specially yourself" has been a personal rule for a good time now.Nobody can delude you more than yourself, and the INTPs capacity for self-delusion and self-destruction is huge... Most of the real bad things that have happened to me have been of my own doing. Sometimes I think my life is a greek tragedy.

 

[loveofreason]

1)
6) "Trust no one. Specially yourself" has been a personal rule for a good time now.Nobody can delude you more than yourself, and the INTPs capacity for self-delusion and self-destruction is huge... Most of the real bad things that have happened to me have been of my own doing. Sometimes I think my life is a greek tragedy.

I thoroughly agree.

I have some self-destructing to do before I add any more.

 

[Jesin]

1) No trust at all. I basically let them lead the conversation and say nothing about myself. Depending on the person, I either get into silent, monosyllabic mode, which makes them go away very fast, or I get into silly extraverted intuitive mode, when I enjoy myself by saying smart sounding gibberish and complicated language jokes and see how people react as a means to gauge their intelligence and trustworthyness (if they laugh and go WTF, they might be decently smart and honest; if they say "that is quite interesting" and change the subject, they are hypocritical liars; if they say "oooh you are a really smart guy" then they are stupid beyond salvation.)

You shouldn't just dismiss people for saying "that is quite interesting" and then changing the subject. There are intelligent, interesting people who try to have "good manners". That sort of reaction does not count in their favor, but it shouldn't count against them, either.

But yes, getting "Ooh, you must be so smart" is a really bad sign.

 

[Kuu]

If you find something "quite interesting"... why would you change the subject?

Because you really don't care. That's usually those E types that have millions of very shallow acquaintances...

"good manners" = hypocrisy. I mean, the point is trust, right? Saying they care about something they don't is pretty far from establishing a foundation of honesty... I'd rather chit chat with the dumb ones that are themselves with no excuses and no BS manipulativeness... I can't stand fakes, even if they are smart ones.

 

[grrreg]

1. Given a random person, where do they lie on your "trust" scale? I'm sure you don't tell them everything openly, but I'm sure you don't tell them nothing about yourself either. How open are you around the average person? (let's say, for the sake of argument, you know them to be a decent person and they're trying to make friendly conversation with you)

That it really depends on the context of how we are meeting. If it's at work, it's much less so with the personal info, if being social though, I'm pretty carefree about most things.

2. What can someone do that makes you trust them more? Less?

A person who shows real interest , shares themselves, is not shallow or dull is always a help.
Of course real trust is earned and that takes time. Itr doesn't take long to realize if someone is not really interested in you as a person, nor does it take long to see if someone will talk a lot about you when you aren't there, esp about private stuff.

3. For those of you who have had serious relationships/gotten married, how did they develop, and how important is trust to them?

I have had so much good luck with this it's hard for most people to believe. But really though I just share easily because I want the same thing from them. You give, you get. I have a very good intuitive sense about people that most people I've talked to lack. I think it's part of the INTP makeup. My analytical non verbal assessments are really quite good. I rely on it when I meet people and decide how trustworthy I sense they are. Trust has been extremely important in all my relationships, they have been all monogamous, and have lasted over years.

4. How much do other people seem to trust you? Why? (if you know)

People do to tend to trust me because I really listen to them. I ask them more in depth questions when they talk about something, thus making them feel like a star. Also, I empathize /sympathize well, and add humor to situations to relieve tension.

5. How necessary is it for you to have someone else you trust completely? How necessary does it seem for other people to need someone else to trust?

You have to have people you trust completely in my book, and luckily I have those people or I don't know what I would do. I think everyone needs someone to trust. Hopefully a parent, a sibling, a friend, lover or at least a pet. And of course, yourself.

6. Anything else relevant you can think of or want other people to talk about

I used to be far more aloof of people I think than I am now. It takes a while to learn to use your INTP to make better relationships for yourself then to cut people off, incidentally or otherwise.

 

[Jesin]

If you find something "quite interesting"... why would you change the subject?

Because you really don't care. That's usually those E types that have millions of very shallow acquaintances...

"good manners" = hypocrisy. I mean, the point is trust, right? Saying they care about something they don't is pretty far from establishing a foundation of honesty... I'd rather chit chat with the dumb ones that are themselves with no excuses and no BS manipulativeness... I can't stand fakes, even if they are smart ones.

So what are they supposed to do? Say that they don't care? It's not manipulative, it's just an attempt to avoid a reputation as a "rude, arrogant jerk".

Really, the judgment should depend more on what they change the subject to. If it's something stupid, like the new high-definition TV they just got, that's bad. If it's something you find interesting, that's good.

(I myself am often reluctant to say "I don't care about X" because I might care about X in the near future.)

 

[Kuu]

So what are they supposed to do? Say that they don't care? It's not manipulative, it's just an attempt to avoid a reputation as a "rude, arrogant jerk".

Yes! And I can stop wasting my time and breath. They can say, "you know, I don't like/enjoy/believe/do that because of x and y and z..." And maybe you can then have a real conversation even if you disagree...

You are making the same mistake everyone makes with INTPs... how is being honest and straightforward "rude and arrogant"? It's almost a public service, to be among the few that actually lift the social rug of lies and show everyone all the dirt....

In fact, they are the ones being rude and arrogant:

a) By lying and thinking that you'll swallow their BS is an insult to my intelligence and also an arrogant attitude, thinking themselves superior.

b) It is manipulative because it's like saying "oh I don't trust you at all, but I will put up my fake self so that you trust me, and then I can get something from you".

c) Chances are they also just simply want you to shut up, and then they start talking about something that interests them... so they just want attention, or enjoy the sound of their own voice... and care absolutely nothing about you or what you have to say... pretty selfless, open minded and trustworthy, huh?

d) I'm no baby, I can handle the truth. Patronize much?


How is that any better? I think being harshly honest is better than being so egotistic and shallow... Ultimately, they "try to avoid" being rude and arrogant, but to me they come across as even more rude and arrogant...

Really, the judgment should depend more on what they change the subject to. If it's something stupid, like the new high-definition TV they just got, that's bad. If it's something you find interesting, that's good.

But that is an intelligence judgment, not about trust...

 

[Jesin]

You are making the same mistake everyone makes with INTPs... how is being honest and straightforward "rude and arrogant"?

No, I'm not. I am not saying that if people say "I don't care", they're being rude and arrogant. I said that some people avoid saying "I don't care" in order to avoid being seen as as "rude and arrogant".

Yes, if they don't care at all, they have no idea what you just said, and they just say "that's interesting" to get you to shut up, that's bad.

On the other hand, sometimes I or one of my friends will truthfully say "that's interesting", and then change the subject. It means something along the lines of "that sounds interesting, I think I'll look it up later, but right now I'd like to talk about something else".

Egh. All I was really trying to say in that first post about this was that the act of saying "that's interesting" and then changing the subject is not always such a bad thing, and it depends on the circumstances, the apparent reason for doing that, what they change the subject to, and so on. Ehh. I think we both need to calm down.

 

[Dissident]

I am not saying that if people say "I don't care", they're being rude and arrogant. I said that some people avoid saying "I don't care" in order to avoid being seen as as "rude and arrogant".

By thinking that I would see it as rude and arrogant that they say they dont care they are prejudicing me and I find that rude (and less worth of my trust)

 

[EditorOne]

I'm not sure what connotation some of you put on the word "trust," but it almost seems to mean "respect me."

Trust is when you can count on someone. "assured reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something". Not when they treat you like you think you should be treated. And animosity doesn't enter into it. Someone may not like you one little bit, but you may be able to trust them to do certain things, including respect confidences.

If some of you are saying you are afraid people will use your confidences to attack you, that's not a trust issue, it's a variance on that good old "bad with emotions" thing. You may have mistakenly identified someone as a trustworthy FRIEND when in fact they were merely playing you.

The reason we all seem to have at least SOME trouble with this is first, some degree of INTP difficulty in interpreting emotions broadcast by others and, second, our preference for conceptualizing rather than experience to inform our thinking. For me it is almost as if I need years of experience to convince me a relationship is solid; at the age of 59 I still feel closer and more comfortable to the two dozen people with whom I shared 13 years of schooling than anyone else, even though i haven't seen some of them for 30 years and even though some of them would be quite surprised to learn how much of a bond I feel with them. It took that many years of experience with them to develop that comfort level. That was experience affecting me almost by osmosis; nowadays I have to remind myself occasionally to incorporate my experiences into my thinking lest conceptualizations lead me down the wrong road.

We really are capable of being very difficult people, are we not?

 

[loveofreason]

Is it too corny to say we have to trust ourselves for any relationships with others to flourish? Probably, but seeing as I don't much care I'll just wear the criminal-corn record.

As I've said, I don't trust myself, but this doesn't preclude relationships from serving a function - mostly to highlight my own ineptitudes to myself and provide the material for analysis when it comes to navel gazing. So this is not flourishing - it is painstaking and painful and unavoidable if one wants to pursue understanding.

For some, communication, trust and relationships flow with seeming ease, but I wonder how much is a disguise or avoidance of self-examination. Others admit how much hard work it takes to build trust and understanding, and I can only regard their commitment to making something flourish with something akin to awe.

Still, would be nice to be on one's own eh? Refining the Theory of Relationships in absolute peace.

Because I am, in my way, so retarded, I can't really contemplate the fortitude it takes. I'm still waiting for the world to feel like a safe place. Without that there is no basis for trust, and relationships are just revolving lessons in basic "how not to be human 101". I don't care how old I am, I'm not ready for advanced courses, I'll fail the prac. every time.

 

[fullerene]

have to trust ourselves for our relationships to flourish... I had to read that, leave for a few hours, and read it again to make sure... I don't really know. See, I just found someone who I actually trust completely recently... and I wouldn't trust myself half as much as them. At the same time, I do "trust" myself to act in weakness in certain areas. I'd never replace trust with predictability when it comes to another person though... so I have to say I honestly do trust other people, even if I don't myself.

wow... for such a dangerous situation I'm obviously set up in, I don't feel very endangered... perhaps I'll just have to *shrug* and say "well, that was some rather good dumb luck..."

 

[grrreg]

wow... for such a dangerous situation I'm obviously set up in, I don't feel very endangered... perhaps I'll just have to *shrug* and say "well, that was some rather good dumb luck..."[/quote]


sounds like love's abandon....sigh, good luck !

 

[fullerene]

*gah*! Don't even joke. She's taken, and I know my place... unless they break up

haha trust though I may have, but in all seriousness I'd feel bad dragging someone else into the horribly twisted life I've carved out for myself so far. We'll see...

 

[Jesin]

Twisted, maybe, but horribly? Are you sure?

 

[fullerene]

I suppose you can never really be sure... but I'd like to have more people than I can count on one hand who I can see how they've benefited from me before I start to think my life is worth very much.

 

[Dissident]

Why measure your life's worth based on that only?


I superficially trust people (for mundane stuff, basically because I dont care if they mess up or whatever); but really letting them in, letting them know my motivations/hopes/fears/etc... no can do.

Okay, I guess I can, but it would take a lot of time and some special person, it never happened yet.

 

[loveofreason]

I just found someone who I actually trust completely recently...

You know that bit in Starship Troopers where the guy signs up for the infantry and the older guy behind the desk congratulates him and tells him the infantry made him the man he is today... and then you see he's lost most all his limbs?

Congratulations Cryptonia.

haha trust though I may have, but in all seriousness I'd feel bad dragging someone else into the horribly twisted life I've carved out for myself so far. We'll see...

Way back in the dark ages I made a vow to myself that I would never get romantically involved with anyone because I didn't want to cause the kind of pain I saw all around me. I 'knew' I was meant to be alone. Unfortunately I recanted that at some stage, but I was right in my first 'knowledge'. I only cause others pain.

Are you so sure of yourself that you can affirm similar self-knowledge so young? Or perhaps setting up ye olde self-fulfilling prophecy?

Anyway, be aware how you're arranging the territory that is coming with the feelings you're experiencing. To assume another becomes part of your world - that you "drag them in" already casts the other as character in your drama, and you've lost something of the true potential. From what I've seen it's a pretty much universal error. We seem to have forgotten how to negotiate shared territory. One always gets dragged into the world of the other... but I'm wandering into another pet topic of mine - personal sovereignty.

On the other hand you can honestly explore the myriad roles of dramatis personae if it is acknowledged up front by both/all involved and the script is mutually agreeable. Some make of it a very fulfilling, very conscious, life.

But the topic was, um, trust? (Not that all I've said is unrelated...)

I superficially trust people (for mundane stuff, basically because I dont care if they mess up or whatever); but really letting them in, letting them know my motivations/hopes/fears/etc... no can do.

Three truer words never said... "no can do".

 

[fullerene]

Why measure your life's worth based on that only?

It's actually well covered by what LoR said, "self-fulfilling." Much of the value I place on it is simply because I placed value on it, for years. Throwing your efforts at something and causing nothing but the opposite is a tad depressing. This is pushing pretty far off topic, though.

You know that bit in Starship Troopers where the guy signs up for the infantry and the older guy behind the desk congratulates him and tells him the infantry made him the man he is today... and then you see he's lost most all his limbs?

Congratulations Cryptonia.

hahah aww... so basically if in fact my judgment is better than yours was, then I'm less likely to get my limbs blown off, but more likely to be right about myself... if my judgment's worse than yours was, it's more likely I just typed myself wrong, but less likely to stay in one piece. Assuming of course that judging oneself and judging another spread from the same skill.

...I think I'm just gonna cross my fingers and hope for some dumb luck.

 

[Kidege]

Drat. I think the amount of ex-friends and ex-family members I have count for at least a limb.
Awesome way of putting it, btw

 

[Agent Intellect]

trust, to me, is a varying thing. i don't think there is anyone i trust completely, but ther are certainly those i trust with some stuff. there is one person that i've known since i was 4 and he was 3 that i probably trust close to completely, but even him i wonder how differently he'd think of me if i let him completely in. even my girlfriend i don't trust too much (which i hate saying) but its just my pessimistic nature to think the worst of every situation.

 

[Ogion]

I skipped two pages (you just created too many posts for me to read for now in my absence; but if anyone already spoke of this please say so and i will read what i skipped) but i wanted to add something. You speak of trust here.
I'd like to ask "Trust in relation to what?"/"Trust'em with what?". I mean, trust in what ways? Because for me, random people (other students, people on the street, aquaintances of aquaintances...) doesn't even qualify for gaining serious trust from me. But of course there is difference in trust. I mostly trust them to not spontaneous attack me without reasons. I would talk to them and even talk about stuff like what i study, how i live or so but not about real personal things. Most of the times i would direct the discussion towards opinions, worldviews, politics and stuff because there i can rant on and on
I don't trust them in any kind if it means an equivalent of thinking of them as allies or something.
There is more trust in friends and family, of course, but even with them i have things i do not tell them. You could say i do not trust them to not judge me, perhaps. There are just some things i wouldn't tell anyone, because i think nobody has to know.

Perhaps onne other thing. If i say i do not trust someone, that doesn't have to mean i distrust someone. I don't walk though the streets always being at alert and distrus to all the people around me. It is more a thing of ignoring them. Which is what i do internally with most people. I do not always show that though, because that would make them hostile to me. That is not necessary, so i fake interest, i fake nice manners (like listen to them), but i do ignore them most of the times.

Ogion

 

[fullerene]

yep, haha I did kinda mention that in the page you skipped probably... lol I said I didn't know what I meant by trust either. If I had to guess what I meant now though, I think I meant "would rely on if you ever needed them mentally/emotionally," since physical needs are (at least for me) a lot easier to leave up to people, because if they let me down there's almost always no harm done. My emotions/personal issues can cripple me very easily if they're mishandled, so I feel like it takes a lot more effort to let those go to people.

 

[Friar Pug Rush]

1. Given a random person, where do they lie on your "trust" scale? I'm sure you don't tell them everything openly, but I'm sure you don't tell them nothing about yourself either. How open are you around the average person? (let's say, for the sake of argument, you know them to be a decent person and they're trying to make friendly conversation with you)

2. What can someone do that makes you trust them more? Less?

3. For those of you who have had serious relationships/gotten married, how did they develop, and how important is trust to them?

4. How much do other people seem to trust you? Why? (if you know)

5. How necessary is it for you to have someone else you trust completely? How necessary does it seem for other people to need someone else to trust?

6. Anything else relevant you can think of or want other people to talk about

1. Hmm. On a scale where 0 is neutral, and -10 is complete distrust, I would say that any random person who initiates contact with me is around a -5. If I know they're a decent person, or I'm initiating, 0 is more likely.
I'm a very open person, and if they touch on a subject that I've had significant experience(s) with or developed strong opinion(s) about, I'm likely to go overboard talking about those experiences, as much to make them go away as anything else. I've had some pretty interesting conversations with random people this way, but not as many interesting ones as short ones.
Trust and openness are two vastly different things for me; my past cannot hurt me, so I'm pretty much an open book. Similarly, I try my best to act rationally, which means I have simple patterns that anyone trying to manipulate me only really needs a few minutes to notice anyway. Trust and openness becomes an issue for me only when it comes to changes I'm making or thinking about making; I don't want just some random person's opinion about what I'm doing with my life, out of concern that it will influence a decision that is ultimately mine, in that I will have to deal with the consequence, while they will just be some random person, still.

2. As open as I am, it seems most people aren't. If someone is willing to share deeply felt experiences and opinions with me, my trust for them increases quickly.
There are obvious things that reduce trust, betrayal, theft, violence but for the worst, I'll quote Nietzsche, because I'm a terrible heathen.
“I'm not upset that you lied to me, I'm upset that from now on I can't believe you.”
It may be important to note that I have to problem with people who lie, betray, and are violent to people I don't know. It only bothers me when it's done to myself or people I care about, or without reason.
The only things other than that, are open displays of willful ignorance, and complete disregard for others.
3. I've been married, and before that had a few long-term (minimum one year) relationships. Usually, they start something like this:
I see a girl. She sits there, and reads, or writes, or just looks unhappy in their inner world, not talking to anyone. At this point, invariably, I think something like, "Wow. This person is just like me," which leads me to go and cheer them up, smile a lot, tell jokes or funny stories about crappy things. At some point, they'll say, "You're a good listener." Shortly after that, I usually have a girlfriend. Inevitably, I'm disappointed when what I took for a pensive, thoughtful, and intelligent person turns out to have only possessed those traits due to a brief period of depression, and they return to their lives of constant, mind-numbing distraction, and try to incorporate the fun-loving, witty me, that was created in response to a misperception of them on my part, into their shallow, thoughtless lives. At this point, one of us cheats on the other, probably for attention, and either I get screamed at (because I was unfaithful), or I wait patiently for them to leave (because they were).
It is my experience, that, practically, any successful relationship is based on two people's complete misconception of the other, and endures by never, under any circumstance, being honest with them, in particular about who you are.
Ideally, trust is everything, as trust is a lasting judgment affected only by experience, while love is only marginally important, since it's a feeling, and feelings fade after time unless we unreasonably idealize them, making it impossible for our partners to live up to those ideals, thus sabotaging the relationship as we strengthen it's value.
4. I'm not really sure, I don't really ask. As far as my judgments, when I'm willing to make one, most people I know or work with have been willing to trust me. When it comes to my sincerity and relationships, especially with the fairer sex, that trust comes only at the cost of my sarcasm, something I am loathe to part with.
5. I like to be trusted. It fills me with the warm and fuzzies. I only need to be trusted when I need someone else to accomplish something. Other people seem to value trust more than I do, and expect it less, both in frequency and consistency.
6. Trust leads, inevitably, to suffering. I'm not Catholic or anything, but I do believe that people are inherently flawed and imperfect, or, maybe more appropriately, perfectly themselves. You can only trust a person to do right by themself; expecting more (which I do, irrationally and more often than I'd like) is not reasonable. People mess up. It's their fault, but it's not, if that makes sense... It's bound to happen by merit of probability in any long term relationship with anyone, including yourself.
Man. I am probably the most faithless humanist ever.

 

[Kuu]

It is my experience, that, practically, any successful relationship is based on two people's complete misconception of the other, and endures by never, under any circumstance, being honest with them, in particular about who you are.
Ideally, trust is everything, as trust is a lasting judgment affected only by experience, while love is only marginally important, since it's a feeling, and feelings fade after time unless we unreasonably idealize them, making it impossible for our partners to live up to those ideals, thus sabotaging the relationship as we strengthen it's value.

I somewhat agree. I do constantly think this in my most pessimistic of states but I still cannot say that it's impossible to have a successful relationship based on reality instead of misunderstandings. It's hard to accept that people are doomed to never understand each other... it's too nihilistic. In a sense, the MTBI makes me feel both better and worse about this...

6. Trust leads, inevitably, to suffering. I'm not Catholic or anything, but I do believe that people are inherently flawed and imperfect, or, maybe more appropriately, perfectly themselves. You can only trust a person to do right by themself; expecting more (which I do, irrationally and more often than I'd like) is not reasonable. People mess up. It's their fault, but it's not, if that makes sense... It's bound to happen by merit of probability in any long term relationship with anyone, including yourself.
Man. I am probably the most faithless humanist ever.

You are not alone. It's really fatalist of me to believe that people were bound to mess up, or act as they do. I usually don't get angry at people anymore, I just go, "well that's him/her... there's nothing that could be done about it, it's nobody's fault".
Perfectly themselves... Nietzsche's amor fati. "Become what you are."

 

[Jesin]

I usually don't get angry at people anymore

Neither do I. My reason's more nihilist, though. "He screwed up. So what? It doesn't really have to matter all that much."

 

[Friar Pug Rush]

Perfectly themselves... Nietzsche's amor fati. "Become what you are."

Yeah. Nietzsche screwed me up. I should've taken more acid, read less books.

Neither do I. My reason's more nihilist, though. "He screwed up. So what? It doesn't really have to matter all that much."

I think that somewhere between those two quotes and these two lies my philosophy...
"We can't help what we are."
--I can't remember right now.

"If I speak in the tongues of men and angels, but have not love,
I have become sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal.

And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and
all knowledge, and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love, I am nothing.

And if I dole out all my goods, and
if I deliver my body that I may boast
but have not love, nothing I am profited.

Love is long suffering,
love is kind,
it is not jealous,
love does not boast,
it is not inflated.

It is not discourteous,
it is not selfish,
it is not irritable,
it does not enumerate the evil.

It does not rejoice over the wrong,
but rejoices in the truth

It covers all things, it has faith for all things,
it hopes in all things, it endures in all things.

Love never falls in ruins;
but whether prophecies, they will be abolished; or
tongues, they will cease; or
knowledge, it will be superseded.

For we know in part and we prophecy in part.

But when the perfect comes, the imperfect will be superseded.

When I was an infant,
I spoke as an infant, I reckoned as an infant;
when I became [an adult],
I abolished the things of the infant.

For now we see through a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then I shall know
as also I was fully known.

But now remains faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love."
1 corinthians 13:1-13
Somewhere between faith and reason... Somewhere between black and white...
Tired. Rambling. Erasing a lot. I'm going to sleep now.

 

[IfloatTHRUlife]

1. The easiest way i can put it is i don't trust anyone but a few people. It takes a long time for me to build trust with people, the only people i know for a fact i can trust are my best friend and my brother. I know a lot of people i can trust to tell things but theres always the chance they could get angry with me for whatever reason. (one thing i have to mention is i dont do many things i would be ashamed or afraid to tell anyone else so me not trusting people is just due to me being a wierdo about people)

2. I only trust people who prove they are trustworthy, this obviously comes through trial and error. If i dont think i can trust someone right off the bat, i probably wont trust them for a long time. I can lose trust in people without anything happening, i can get paranoid and start jumping to conclusions. Many people prove themselves untrustworthy

4. A lot of people trust me with their problems and things they dont want other people to know, some peope that barely even know me trust me with alot. I dont know why people instantly trust me, but after they have told me something and ask me not to tell anyone, i always say, "im not going to tell anyone unless they mention it to me.. ", that must make people comfortable or something..

5. I can do pretty fine not telling anyone anything. Other people, i dont know, i imagine someone with emotional issues or something, might need someone as an emotional crutch.

 

[Thomas Young]

Interesting post here, I agree and do most of these things you mentioned like talking on a deeper level and I've found that people always confide in me things that normally they wouldn't feel comfortable discussing with everyone else. I kind of like that, its annoying tho when they pretend they never hit that level with you and go back to stage one: small talk. What a massive bore that is.

I can only trust someone if they drop the act.

 

[fullerene]

ahh thanks.

Now that you mention it... I kind of wonder if it's an act at all. I mean, for some people it very obviously is... but my roommate freshman year of college actually passes time by small talk. By that I mean he would choose it over most other things (though he does read a lot too... I'd say ENTP probably). I didn't understand why til I asked him sometime, and he said that the only real reason he did it was to pass the time... just like me playing cards (I played like an average of 2 hours a day with people through first semester). Small talk with him never bothered me again... but on the other hand I caught myself audibly sigh (and I'm usually careful not to hurt people) when someone I barely knew asked "what did you do today?"

I think it's the act that bugs me with people more than the small talk, like you said. It's just that small talk to us, or at least to me, is always an act on my end--until I know they're not acting, in which case I fall in step pretty easily.

 

[ChaosTheory]

I don't really know where I stand on trusting people. I don't have this crazy paranoid fear that everyone is out to get me and I have to be safe and take precautions when meeting people, being in a big city alone and confiding in someone. I can usually tell by the way someone acts around me if they are trustworthy. I mean, people are people. Some are douches, while some are genuine good people. I just think there's enough trust to be found in almost anyone on some level.

 

[Wisp]

Almost. =)

 

[Vrecknidj]

Is it too corny to say we have to trust ourselves for any relationships with others to flourish?

I don't know about the corniness, but, it's generally the case that we need to work out things with ourselves before we get very far with others.

As I've said, I don't trust myself, but this doesn't preclude relationships from serving a function...

Agreed. As a matter of fact, it's not unreasonable to say that we need others so that we can see ourselves. Just like gain something by viewing yourself in a mirror, you gain something by viewing yourself in others.

For some, communication, trust and relationships flow with seeming ease, but I wonder how much is a disguise or avoidance of self-examination. Others admit how much hard work it takes to build trust and understanding, and I can only regard their commitment to making something flourish with something akin to awe.

I was lucky. My wife and I started young and fought like hell to keep ourselves functionting. Hasn't been easy, but it's been worth it.

I'm still waiting for the world to feel like a safe place. Without that there is no basis for trust, and relationships are just revolving lessons in basic "how not to be human 101". I don't care how old I am, I'm not ready for advanced courses, I'll fail the prac. every time.

Yeah, it's rough when there are jerks littering the landscape from one horizon to the other.

Dave

 

[Vrecknidj]

... but my roommate freshman year of college actually passes time by small talk. By that I mean he would choose it over most other things (though he does read a lot too... I'd say ENTP probably). I didn't understand why til I asked him sometime, and he said that the only real reason he did it was to pass the time... just like me playing cards (I played like an average of 2 hours a day with people through first semester). Small talk with him never bothered me again... but on the other hand I caught myself audibly sigh (and I'm usually careful not to hurt people) when someone I barely knew asked "what did you do today?"

I think it's the act that bugs me with people more than the small talk, like you said. It's just that small talk to us, or at least to me, is always an act on my end--until I know they're not acting, in which case I fall in step pretty easily.

That fits my experience quite nicely. Small talk is a skill, just like playing cards. It has its advantages. It has disadvantages. Generally, I find it's like owning a pass card. I can use the "small talk pass" to get through some social situations that otherwise would be troubling for me to navigate.

Dave

 

[Vrecknidj]

Oh, and one more general comment.

You can find this splattered all over the Internet (and elsewhere), but it really is true that humans have an amazing capacity for self-deception. I'm sure there are all sorts of reasons for this (from the more clearly psychological to the cleverly evolutionary to the starkly neurological). But, it remains true.

People deceive themselves all the time. We do it alone, we do it in small groups, we do it in large groups. It's amazing.

That has to say something about trust.

Dave

 

[Thomas Young]

Small talk is a skill? I disagree, small talk is a stupid way of filling uncomfortable silence by saying something you don't really want to say you just say it for the sake of filling an awkward gap. I say cope with the awkward gap, be comfortable with yourself! or if you can't do that on your own, comment on the fact you feel awkward with someone and work out why that is. I'd much rather people just say what's on their mind when they open their mouth. Not this silly 'How was work today?' false concern. Because people who ask that question don't give a damn how work was... maybe 'how are you?' would be a better question. However saying this i'm being a hypocrite although I rarely indulge myself in small talk, I don't usually diseminate what's on my mind all the time either. I suppose what I'm saying is that it would be nice if people were more truthful when they chose to speak.

 

[loveofreason]

I suppose what I'm saying is that it would be nice if people were more truthful when they chose to speak.

The ultimate unattainable dream.

Not that I don't share the sentiment, but wishing so has been to my life-long detriment.

I have to defer to the truth as Vrecknidj states - deception is a social lubricant. If we were confronted with and had to deal with the truth from one another, society would grind to a halt.

In a way we trust others to lie, to preserve us from the cost of concerns about which we can do nothing. In this way the stranger is more trust-worthy, and the closer someone becomes the less certain we can be of their adherence to the unspoken rule - the less in fact, it is enforced - until we come to the closest relationships in which the expectation is not to preserve the other from one's personal horrors, but to share them. (OK - I know in theory there are supposed to be shared joys and happy-ever-afters, and nothing but. More deception. )

Agreed. As a matter of fact, it's not unreasonable to say that we need others so that we can see ourselves. Just like gain something by viewing yourself in a mirror, you gain something by viewing yourself in others.

I've read a little on this theory; on how others can bring to light for us parts of our psyche we need examine, and it's a very tidy way to view human interaction. Nice symmetry. Doesn't make the practice palatable though.

(I think I wandered into this territory in the self-esteem thread?)