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Ti is an "action-based" kind of logic.

TimeAsylums

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and what does Ni do?

Look up a couple of posts about Ne vs Ni, I can't really go into depth about it...if you really want to know, read Solitary Walker's profiles/PJ's ideas on Ni.
the metaphysical aspect is relevant because your socionic source depends on the notion of "true" originality.

Not the time to be pedantic -_-. I'm not focusing on whether the ENTP is an "original" inventor or not, I'm focusing on explaining Ne.
 

Brontosaurie

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Look up a couple of posts about Ne vs Ni, I can't really go into depth about it...if you really want to know, read Solitary Walker's profiles/PJ's ideas on Ni.

you can't discuss with an article.

also those are full of gaps and conflations like the one i just pointed out.

i prefer discussion to sucking up some tiresome megalomaniac's hyperbolic and inconsistent ramblings which typically follow a very predictable conceptual trajectory, spending valuable energy on surface rhetorics. that's my Ne afaik.

Not the time to be pedantic -_-. I'm not focusing on whether the ENTP is an "original" inventor or not, I'm focusing on explaining Ne.

so you explain Ne by stating that it absorbs and refines external ideas, unlike Ni forming internal ideas in a more subconscious manner?

Ni converts concrete perceptions to ideas, while Ne perceives ideas and elaborates on them?

i don't think it's coherent. i think both Ne and Ni thrive on ideas but with different directional orientations. Ne prefers to be aware in the moment while Ni prefers to accumulate. none of them is "truly" original but they're both well acquainted with the unforeseen.
 

TimeAsylums

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YOU GODDAMNED TI-DOM. SEE THE BIG PICTURE.


lol jk :)
so you explain Ne by stating that it absorbs and refines external ideas, unlike Ni forming internal ideas in a more subconscious manner?

Ni converts concrete perceptions to ideas, while Ne perceives ideas and elaborates on them?

No, this is too inexact and generalized.

...//*off to find some links about Ne/Ni*
Sorry if we're derailing, Archie.


i don't think it's coherent. i think both Ne and Ni thrive on ideas but with different directional orientations. Ne prefers to be aware in the moment while Ni prefers to accumulate. none of them is "truly" original but they're both well acquainted with the unforeseen.


You're getting too hung up on that "original" thing.
Also, mixing and mashing Ne/Ni, Ne loves to accumulate.


http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=14170
<--Ne/Ni discussion
 

Brontosaurie

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i'm getting hung up on the thing you brought to the table to discuss?

and i'm too generalized yet too specific?

sorry, not following.
 

Montresor

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Hm, not sure where you get that. How could you see Se, do I talk about all the sports and physical activities I do? And on Te, I don't do much thinking out loud on the board, instead I put out previously thought out theories (Ti) of mine. On Fi yes I do have it, but so does everybody either in the stack or shadow functions. We all have emotions and experience them in depth.

I'm just dragging this quote over here from the witch hunt thread because I think it's relevant,

Can I request an explanation for how Te equates to "thinking out loud" in opposition to Ti (sharing previously thought-out theories), and how this relates to it being an "action-oriented" function?

I am having a hard time identifying a linear thought process.


... on that note, how is Fi equated to "having deep emotions"?


Actually, tell me more about Se too. Se, the "perception process" of "sensors", is what causes them to talk about sports on web forums etc?


Are you crazy man?
 

TimeAsylums

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I am having a hard time identifying a linear thought process.

Ti-Se/Se-Ti|(xSTP): There will not be any leaping or skipping of logic/thought process here. To get from A - Z we must have all 26.
If my unorganized thought processes annoys you INTPs, the xSTPs would murder me.
Are you crazy, man?
No, just microseisures.


I leave Te to Architect.
 

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Can I request an explanation for how Te equates to "thinking out loud" in opposition to Ti (sharing previously thought-out theories), and how this relates to it being an "action-oriented" function?

I am having a hard time identifying a linear thought process.


... on that note, how is Fi equated to "having deep emotions"?


Actually, tell me more about Se too. Se, the "perception process" of "sensors", is what causes them to talk about sports on web forums etc?


Are you crazy man?

Probably ...
 

Analyzer

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Let's look at it from a basic perspective.

There is a reason why INTPs are labeled as the "Engineers", "Designers", "Architects" or "Thinkers".

These labels are associated with seeing a problem or some given, and trying to make it into a working or functional system. Ti/Ne mainly Ti with the support of Ne is all about coming up with a conceptual framework or model using analysis. This is what Engineers, Architects, or "Thinkers"(theorists) essentially do.

INTJs on the other hand are labeled as the "Scientists" "Strategists" or "Masterminds".

With these labels it's all about envisioning plans and ideas of action. Scientists especially, take their time with research and have to always be perceiving possibilities of going about things. The INTJ leader has to come up with plans of action and make sure its encompassing everything(Te). This is more of a Ni/Te dynamic but primarily its using Ni with the support of Te. They are also prone to experimentation, which also fits these labels.

*With their cousins ISTPs, the Se auxiliary and dominant Ti make them go about it similar to INTP but focused more on the physical or the immediate environment. This is why they are labled as the "crafters" "mechanics" or "performers". These are all about building or manipulating physical objects or environments.

*With the cousins of the INTJs the INFJs there is a similar dynamic. Both use Ni but instead of focusing the objective logical ideas(Te), INFJs are more into the emotional or social aspect(Fe). This is why they are labeled the "Counselor" "Protectors" "Confidants". They are all about seeing possibilities of values(Ni/Fe).

*N is all about connecting/observing abstract patterns. Ti is about focusing on a specific logical idea, while Te tries assimilate general logical ideas.
 

Architect

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Good post, and interesting to point out the names. Those come from Kiersey I believe, and he really got into it with that. His last book is called "Personology" and I got a copy. Haven't read it, it is nearly incomprehensible. It's all about examining fine shadings of words as they relate to type. Maybe someday it'll make sense, but he had to do a vanity printing to get it out.
 

TimeAsylums

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INTP Personality

Interesting unique point I haven't seen elsewhere.

So, a few days ago, I thought I had the overall gist of your point, and I did, but I just re-read another profile and it caught my attention mentioning Ti.


The following is quoted from Lenore Thomson's Personality Type: An Owner's Manual:
Unlike Extraverted Thinking, which is conceptual and generalized, Introverted Thinking motivates strategic action in a specific situation. When ENTPs use it, they don't start with abstract rules and apply them, step by step, to bring about a goal. They recognize themselves as part of an ongoing process, and they keep adjusting their behaviors in terms of the whole picture.

Introverted Thinking can be highly cerebral, and it usually involves a complex imaginal pattern of relationships.

I was mistaken in thinking you had physically meant action-oriented until you specified, but this is even more clarifying, in the
contrast of Te and Ti
I wonder if this is a characteristic of introverted functions. Is Ni more action oriented than Ne, which is more of an advisor or seeker? This seems to highlight why some functions are considered judging functions (introverted functions) or perceiving?


So, yes, it seems your assumption about the I functions being more "specific/action oriented" seems to be somewhat correlation wise true, with the E functions being more "generalized."

//was also reading somewhere else, sorry can't find the link, but I think Jung/maybe someone else asserted or said that the introversion of a function makes it more "intense"...which you can see why.

And by intense I assume I mean " I is more specific" as opposed to the E's "generalized."

So while we already discussed it being nothing new, it's actually important and interesting...
 
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I felt I've read this before. So I looked at the ENTP one and I was sure of it. After looking at the sections I realized where from. This information is lifted directly from BSM Consulting's PersonalityPage.com site: http://www.personalitypage.com/INTP.html

Just giving credit where credit is due. :borg:
 

Architect

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Just giving credit where credit is due. :borg:

Sorry, I thought that was well known. This particular profile is quite old and had been copied and used everywhere, I just happened to peruse the one above the other day.

Actually it was the Paul James profile on INTPc that first clued me into who I was. It was uncanny.
 

Architect

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So, a few days ago, I thought I had the overall gist of your point, and I did, but I just re-read another profile and it caught my attention mentioning Ti.

Good catch

I was mistaken in thinking you had physically meant action-oriented until you specified, but this is even more clarifying, in the contrast of Te and Ti

Right, sorry for that. I meant active, surely in doing something (thinking hard, drawing plans or graphs) but not physically (going out and building something). That doing may not be out in the real world at all, at first it's just drawing up plans, schematics, architecture, design in the head. Hopefully eventually it makes it out into the world, but perhaps that's a somewhat different process.

So, yes, it seems your assumption about the I functions being more "specific/action oriented" seems to be somewhat correlation wise true, with the E functions being more "generalized."

Right, what led me to this was also thinking of Ne vs Ni. My Ni dominant INFJ will jump to a conclusion with her intuition (action) while I'll be more like "whoa, hold back, let's consider more possibilities (non action).

was also reading somewhere else, sorry can't find the link, but I think Jung/maybe someone else asserted or said that the introversion of a function makes it more "intense"...which you can see why.

Yup, that's exactly right. Drenth has made this point in various places.

And by intense I assume I mean "I is more specific" as opposed to the E's "generalized."

So while we already discussed it being nothing new, it's actually important and interesting...

Yup
 

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[MENTION]John_Mann[/MENTION]John_Mann said something relevant that is crazy good here

John_Mann said:
Ne it's the wave function. Ni it's the wave function collapse.

I can't express how concise and apropos this is, truly amazing insight. Or maybe the physicist in me is getting it's rocks on, at any rate this perfectly expresses the difference to me. Ne is like "potential" and Ni is like "a possibility". Same can be said for Ti, Te, etc.
 

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Ti-Se/Se-Ti|(xSTP): There will not be any leaping or skipping of logic/thought process here. To get from A - Z we must have all 26.
If my unorganized thought processes annoys you INTPs, the xSTPs would murder me.


I leave Te to Architect.


I realize this is a few days old now but I just wanted to chime in that your sarcasm is not appreciated.

I may be rude at times, but usually I feel it's in the service/pursuit of pure knowledge/truth; if I read something very questionable, I'm apt to call it out, until I understand/agree. It's not important to me who said it or how many people agree. Please forgive me for this character flaw.

Along these lines, I must say, your typology skills are weak.

The Ni function of the SP/NJ is widely credited as being the one that "jumps" from A to Z. This is a far cry from attempting to deconstruct a thought process to identify the axioms, you fool.
 

TimeAsylums

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Ti-Se/Se-Ti|(xSTP): There will not be any leaping or skipping of logic/thought process here. To get from A - Z we must have all 26.
If my unorganized thought processes annoys you INTPs, the xSTPs would murder me.

I leave Te to Architect.

I realize this is a few days old now but I just wanted to chime in that your sarcasm is not appreciated.

??????????????????????

Ffs, where?


The Ni function of the SP/NJ is widely credited as being the one that "jumps" from A to Z. This is a far cry from attempting to deconstruct a thought process to identify the axioms, you fool.

The SPs have it in the inferior as opposed to the NJs dominant; so where as the INJs are more likely to do it, the SPs would only have those inferior/gut traps/feelings every once in awhile

If you had read any number of my posts, and stopped jumping to conclusions about me being sarcastic?? you would have gotten that already.


...assuming/jumping to conclusions about me as usual...:rolleyes:
 

Foxman49

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Not sure how much this contributes to the Ti vs Te discussion, but here goes. Here's an article I spotted recently that mentions it: (the stats seem a bit off though.)

INTP's are well under 2% of the population. If you are INTP female, you are well under 1% of the population. Even our close rational cousins, the INTJs, feel somewhat alien when we interact with them. INTJs do not share our Perceiving function, and, therefore, they can create their mental constructs in a vacuum. They tend to think it first, then go about putting their theories into practice in the world. INTPs do it in the opposite direction. They observe and analyze the world first, then go back and create constructs based on what we observed.

I'll add my own thoughts later.
 

scorpiomover

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Interesting unique point I haven't seen elsewhere. I've seen this to be true with INTPs and ISTPs. I wonder if this is a characteristic of introverted functions.
All functions are capable of being in "active mode" or "passive mode".

Is Ni more action oriented than Ne, which is more of an advisor or seeker?
They both are both, but in different ways. Ne is about observing patterns and building up worldviews that are objective. Ni is about observing patterns and building up worldviews that are subjective, i.e. about oneself. Thus, Ni is Ne, but with an added component, that says "what does this mean FOR ME?" As a result, when Ni looks for solutions, it focusses on generating solutions that will work to achieve the Ni-dom's goals. So if the Ni-dom is an advisor to a king, and the country is on the verge of war, and the king wants to know how to avert war, and the advisor wants to see the king succeed, Ni is excellent at coming up with such solutions. If, however, the advisor wants to see the king fail so that the avisor can replace him with a coup, then Ni will come up with solutions that are bound to fail.

Ne comes up with more objective types of solutions. They have to be applied to the situation, before they can work. but they equally don't have the kind of narrow focus that normally means with Ni, that if you find an issue with the Ni idea, you often can't see any other way for the Ni idea to be applied, because of its narrow focus.

This seems to highlight why some functions are considered judging functions (introverted functions) or perceiving?
There is a correlation between Judgers and their functions. The introverted perception functions are geared towards finding solutions that are focussed on one's personal achievement. The extroverted judgement functions are geared towards public achievement. As a result, Judgers are those whose whole essence seems to be about making publicly-recognised personal achievements.

The introverted judgement functions are geared towards private achievement. The extroveted perception functions are geared towards finding solutions that are focussed on achievement for all of humanity. As a result, Perceivers are those who appear to others to be uninterested in ambition, because their ambitions seem to be either in private, to help everyone.
 

Architect

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All functions are capable of being in "active mode" or "passive mode".

This is all interesting analysis but you state that all functions can be active or passive (which is not quite the same as what I am saying) but then decline to substantiate the idea.

Arch said:
Is Ni more action oriented than Ne, which is more of an advisor or seeker?
They both are both, but in different ways. Ne is about observing patterns and building up worldviews that are objective. Ni is about observing patterns and building up worldviews that are subjective, i.e. about oneself. ...

Good explication. I like what you say here, however taken in isolation this would encourage one to conclude that introverts are narcissists - just concerned about themselves, and extroverts are not. While I agree there is something to the idea it should be taken in context. Alternatively we could consider that it's the combination of introverted and extroverted functions which prevents a person from becoming pathological.
 

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The SPs have it in the inferior as opposed to the NJs dominant; so where as the INJs are more likely to do it, the SPs would only have those inferior/gut traps/feelings every once in awhile


This is such a joke TA.

Do you think your fallacies are lost on me?

How on earth can you make an argument like this:

The SPs have it in the inferior as opposed to the NJs dominant
with such blatant arrogance, and then follow it up with this?:

INJs are more likely to do it, the SPs would only have those inferior/gut traps/feelings every once in awhile
By specifying INJ in your second point your are clarifying that you argue the case of introverts, where Ni would never be found in the inferior. Your arguments take the form of non-sequitur and your shaky and invalid premises weaken each other.
 

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P.S. the point isn't that you did it once the point is that you do it and don't see why you shouldn't.
 

scorpiomover

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This is all interesting analysis but you state that all functions can be active or passive (which is not quite the same as what I am saying) but then decline to substantiate the idea.
You want more? Oh. OK.

Active = problem-solving to reach a clear decision.

Passive = problem-solving to eliminate potential choices that might not be optimal or might even be harmful, or to provide more potential choices, such as when one's dominant has run out of options.

Usually, these modes work very differently. The active mode is more practical. The passive mode is more academic or theoretical.

Logic is by its nature rather passive. Sometimes it can reach a decision, but only very slowly. It would not be prudent to use logic as one's primary method of decision-making, at least, in this form. For this reason, people tend to think of those who base their life entirely on logic, as being rather unproductive. So there have to be However, if INTPs really lived that way, we'd not be able to decide what to wear before we leave the house. Likewise, if ENFJs relied entirely on their feelings to know what to do, they'd often just feel, but have no idea on what to actually do. So the functions that seem to rather indecisive, have to be decisive, to act as our primary method of decision-making. Likewise, the algorithmic functions that seem to only produce decisions on what to do, such as following the rules (Si), have to be able to provide useful information to another method of decision-making, to act in an auxiliary fashion. As these 2 ways of approaching the same algorithmic functions are usually described in very different ways, to explain what they are, might have to require different descriptions for each mode of operation, in an active decision-making mode in the dominant position, and as a passive aid to decision-making in the auxiliary position.

For instance, logic is useful to help us make a decision. But as a primary method of making split-second decisions such as in driving, it would be quite poor. We'd need something a bit more useful there. I eventually came to the realisation that when I make decisions in real life, most of them tend to focus on "whatever works for me". Most of my practical decisions are about "whatever works". But they usually involve solutions that wouldn't work for most people, and rely on my quirks.

I also use logic, in a more passive way, to help me figure things out. There, the decisions come later.
 

TimeAsylums

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I like what you say here, however taken in isolation this would encourage one to conclude that introverts are narcissists - just concerned about themselves, and extroverts are not.

No, it doesn't actually suggest that, only if you take it that way, it's more of:

As Jung shall remind us, Introversion is the attitude that defines the world in relation to our inner being, yet Extroversion is the attitude that defines our being in relation to the world. Thus, introversion employs the internal standard to assess the outer world, and Extroversion employs the standard of the world to assess our being. In this case we are examining the phenomenon of Perception. Perception is the faculty that we examine our environment with. Thus, Introverted perceivers tend to define their outer environment in accordance to their perceptions.... yada yada yada

It's just going into the I/E original definitions
 

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regardless of MBTI cognitive functions, every human being operates in the thought vs physical world construct.
 
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