Thinking and Intuition in Functions - How Do They Differ?

[Jordan~]

I have a friend who's an INTJ and writes a lot of poetry. The INTJ's tertiary function, Fi, would be a good source for this - but I wonder, is tertiary too low for it to have a noticeable effect on one's lifestyle? This lead me to wonder about Ti and Ni, and Te and Ne; as our primary and auxiliary functions are Ti and Ne, and the INTJ's are Ni and Te. It seems to me that Te and Ne are much the same thing - trying to understand ones environment. Ti and Ni also seem very similar - they deal in introspection and ideas. What are the differences between these functions?

 

[Dissident]

I feel like Captain Obvious, what do you mean exactly? One is a Judging function and the other is a Perceiving one; one is to make decisions, and the other to gather information, am I missing something?

 

[Decaf]

I understand how an NT would have trouble putting a dividing line between N and T, but they refer to two completely different parts of what, ideally, is a single process. Intuition is a perceiving function. For us INTPs it functions as our tendency to look at the world and see patterns. It allows us to explore the interrelatedness of things. For INTJs it allows them to brainstorm about stuff they know. That's why INTJs are so good at application. Give them the information and they will always be able to come up with a potential use.

For thinking its just the opposite. We use thinking to look at the patterns we've observed and coordinate them into a system that explains how the universe works. INTJs use it on the world to see the rules by which things operate. This goes along with what I said earlier about being excellent at application.


For a fundamental difference between INTPs and INTJs think about this:

INTJs introvert their perception and extravert their judgment which helps them change the world based on their own ideas. I like to call them the great "improvers". In other words they imagine what is possible and then apply it. Because they don't extravert their perceiving ability, they are also are at risk of being fairly oblivious to anything they don't understand (a.k.a. people's emotions, differing values).

INTPs introvert their judgment and extravert their perception with makes them the great "comprehenders". In other words, we collect data from outside and organize it inside. On the flip side because we don't extravert our judging, we can fall into procrastination, where we never feel prepared enough to start something, and so we never do it.


Oh, I almost submitted without ever mentioning the poetry. Poetry doesn't have anything to do with feeling. Its all about introverted intuition. It just so happens that most successful poets are introverted intuiters with extraverted feeling to help them express themselves in a beautiful way or to refer to things that effect emotion or personal values. I believe Ogden Nash was an INTJ.


Sorry if I have a habit of taking a sledgehammer approach to questions. I don't believe that I've covered all the bases and I'm not certain that I'm right. I'm not really sure why the combination of introverted thinking and extraverted intuition makes me unable to stop talking about an idea once I get rolling

 

[Jesin]

Aww, why the frowny face? That's not always a bad thing.

 

[Dissident]

Yeah, you are our official MBTI expert, who is gonna explain it if not you?

 

[Jordan~]

Okay, I've got it now!

 

[Radioactive_Springtime]

nothing wrong with sharing all your thoughts to help further another's understanding.

 

[loveofreason]

I found that a really helpful explanation from Decaf.

I still question if I've typed myself correctly, but the perpetually unprepared bit - that's me.

Mind you I still start (some) things and just assume I'll work it out along the way. If I didn't take this approach I'd never do anything.

Does a preference for extraverted judging ie. being INTJ rather than INTP, make it harder to think on the fly?

 

[Jordan~]

Would an INXP exhibit both INTP and INFP traits?

 

[Decaf]

INTJ vs. INTP and thinking on the fly... it depends on what you're thinking about. When we're thinking on our feet, we tend to be engaging our extraverted intuition side (the ideal function to use when coming up with new ideas). In conversations where your idea was shot down, most of us find it second nature to manufacture a completely new idea on the spot and its generally not too bad if we understand the fundamentals of the subject.

INTJs extravert their thinking, which means they process on the fly. I'm not sure of the exact effect of that, but I assume that it would exhibit itself in situations like answering questions during a presentation (questions don't often require new ideas and I think INTPs have a tendency to tangent badly during Q&A).
__

an INXP isn't someone who has balanced T and F functions. According to the theory, there's no such thing. Its uncertainty of how they prefer to be. Often that comes from misunderstanding their motivations, misunderstanding the test and what its asking for, or assuming your work identity while taking the test (most people test differently at work than in non-work environments).

I've noticed in intpcentral especially that there are a lot of people floating around listing that as their personality type. Pulling from the same Dario Nardi book I referenced on the J vs. P thread that is explained by a person's lifestate. At different times during your life you will engage more intimately with certain non-dominant functions depending on the requirements of your environment and how acclimated you are to it. That's why plenty of sensors do well in college and feelers are able to be objective in their jobs. That doesn't mean its their new preference, but sometimes its hard to get them to see that they use those "borrowed" functions through their dominant functions. Sensors use their ability to use abstract information AFTER collecting the proper physical data. Feelers are objective AFTER they've determined being so won't violate their principles.

Its a tough problem because standard questions tend not to punch through those barriers very well. That's why every test is supposed to be verified by a qualified practitioner. So that those problems don't cloud what should be a useful tool of self development.

 

[Jordan~]

Well, the thing is, although most of the time I definitely match the INTP profile, I often seem to match the INFP profile, too, especially when I'm in a bad mood.

 

[Decaf]

That's pretty normal. Sometimes your dominant functions of Introverted Thinking and Extraverted Intuition get overwhelmed, or prove to be the wrong process for whatever problem(s) is confronting you. When that happens its pretty common to cope by retreating to less dominant functions to attempt to handle the problem. Its a good system in theory, but often those functions are not as well developed and can come across as immature. They're also not as comfortable, which is why we only pull them out only when we absolutely must. Most experts call these the "shadow" functions.

When the problem goes away or you find a way to reinstill confidence in yourself you will most often go back to your more comfortable preferred functions.

There's disagreement on what each person's inferior functions are, so I think its something you have to explore for yourself. For you I suppose its probably feeling. Whether its introverted or extraverted you'll have to figure out. Here's a hint that works for me. When I get into my inferior mood (often brought on by dealing with feeling problems) I get myself out best by engaging my introverted sensing. I proofread my work or do the dishes. Anything to rebuild my confidence in myself, to stop the avalanche of emotions that comes from feeling overwhelmed.

 

[Jordan~]

I see. It's probably Fi, I tend to mope about in the dark when I'm upset.

 

[Decaf]

On the bright side, that's something you can learn to get better at. I initially coped by psychoanalyzing myself, but I don't recommend it, because it doesn't help in the long run. Honestly the best thing for me was a combination of dating a feeler and the accidental suicide of my boss at the ANG. A lot of tamped down emotions came out and she helped me through it and since I think my feeling side has gotten a lot more room to mature.

 

[Agent Intellect]

shadow functions aren't always brought on by need. when i get into arguments with friends, i often find that become very much ENTP, as i argue with people just for the sake of arguing. i argue on the side of things i don't even agree with often times just to see how people respond (someone i used to work with actually thought i was a muslim for a while).

and sometimes i become more ISTP. i'll come up with some project i want to do and will just go at it full force, taking on every aspect of it. of course, after a while, that INTP kicks in again and i just sort of give up on it lol.

 

[Jesin]

Acting ENTP is not using the shadow functions, that's just Ne, the secondary function, coming forward.

As for the second thing you described, I do that occasionally too, but I don't think it is "becoming more ISTP".

 

[Decaf]

The keys to remember are these rules:

1. Your type never changes over the course of your entire life. Think of it like your first language, except you learned the building blocks of it before you ever said your first word. In fact, your understanding of language is accomplished through you dominant function, so unless you are able to relearn how to speak using another function (which is something stroke victims have to do sometimes) you're stuck. Is that such a bad thing?

2. Every type has access to all eight possible functions. Through the course of your life all healthy mature individuals use each and every function at some point. You need to learn to understand your environment in the long term (extraverted intuition), understand your own hopes and dreams (introverted intuition), see the world for what it is (extraverted sensing), and see how you fit into it (introverted sensing). You need to to be able to make the best decision with the given data (introverted thinking) and apply that decision in an effective way (extraverted thinking), understand the implications for those affected (extraverted feeling) and the toll your choices have on yourself (introverted feeling).

Every person starts life with a preference for one of those functions. Eventually it becomes clear that a second function is necessary to handle life as it comes and take up a second function (both presumably determined by genetics). At that point, we can determine someone's MBTI type, but it doesn't stop there. As those skills grow life shows us that those are still insufficient and so we start picking up more (My theory is that the "mid-life crisis" is when a sensor goes the process of developing their intuition function).

Your type doesn't change, but you will grow and it will likely be different than many (if any) other person, even of those that share your type. The MBTI is an approximation, but its useful as a map that shows us where we are and where we can go.

This is paraphrased from the first chapter of a book I'm trying to write about INTPs. So far, its the only chapter I've partially written, but I'm working on it

 

[Jordan~]

So, where does the primary function come from? You say it's genetic. A baby has too primitive a level of understanding of the world to be affected by its environment in such a complex way, surely, so that makes sense. But if a baby can have a dominant function, what about something with a similar (or higher) level of awareness, such as a bonobo ape, a dolphin, or a chimpanzee? What about birds capable of learning and understanding language (such as grey parrots, which can directly decline verbs and do mathematics, even understanding the concept of 0). Or an elephant? They exhibit self-awareness that babies aren't born with.

And if it is genetically determined, the genes responsible can surely be isolated? If one wanted an INTP baby, one could engineer one, for example?

 

[Wisp]

Hey Decaf, you should REALLY make a thread under handmade & blogging and let us read it as you start writing. It'll be interesting, and I'm sure SOMEONE will have a good idea...

 

[Jesin]

But Wisp, then the book will be online before he gets it published.

 

[Wisp]

...but I need reading material...

But yeah I get the point. I really didn't think about it in that context.

But the odds of it ever being finished and my getting to read it are rather slim... which mkes me sad...

 

[Decaf]

@ Jordan
For starters, we don't know for certain that personality type is genetic. It just happens too early to be psychologically analyzed. It literally has to happen before the baby can in any way communicate with the outside world (thus its too late to influence it). Eventually we may be able to affect the choice the brain makes in choosing its type but that's a long, long time away (we've only now determined the region of the brain associated with being sad... how long will it take to figure out which on represents long term thinking?).

Second, personality type theory is not exactly on the forefront of psychology as a field. Most psychologists favor trait theory (or at least so it appears from my effortrs to find professors to correspond with) which operates on the IQ theory. That idea is that people are fundamentally the same with varying degrees of competency in different areas (intelligence, extroversion, emotional stability). To me that theory begs the question of why we don't research how to make kids smarter, but then as a type theorist I see that as a ridiculous proposition. Every type has equal value and the removal of any type would be hazardous to the human race, like genetically removing thumbs. The best way to maximize a child's success in life is to approve of its identity. Even if you managed to make a kid into an INTP, there's no guarantee they'll develop into a successful individual.

Let's forget about all this, microwave some popcorn and watch "Gattica".

@Wisp
I may do that. Its my first book project, so I don't really expect to get it published. Its more that the process of writing it will help me reach the next level of understanding of the material. I'm the project, the book is the mechanism. Besides... I desperately need proofreaders

 

[Decaf]

Oh, apparently reading through the posts of the type genetics thread you know most of that. Nevermind

Maybe you could give me a folder next to Perseus' to work with so I can get feedback on some of the points I want to convey (once I figure out which points I'm gonna commit myself to).

 

[Dissident]

You are really gonna get somewhere with that man, keep it up, its great. We'd love to help you out discussing it, but you shouldnt post it all, its yours, dont dismiss the idea of publishing it just yet.

 

[Jesin]

Even if you managed to make a kid into an INTP, there's no guarantee they'll develop into a successful individual.

No, there most certainly is not. You'd want INTJ for that.

 

[Jordan~]

No guarantee of success, but a guarantee of brilliance. I value the latter more highly.

 

[Jesin]

@Jordan~: You don't even get that.

@Wisp: I can recommend reading material if you want, but not in this thread.

 

[Agent Intellect]

thats an interesting concept, i don't think i'd even want to make my kid into an INTP. maybe an INTJ. i know one of my more glaring flaws is the fact that i just can't make myself get shit done, and i wouldn't want to impose that flaw on my offspring. of course, i'd just assume not have any kids at all (and i can only imagine that the potential kid probably wouldn't want my misanthropic ass as a father).

 

[Jordan~]

My friends always say I'd be a good father and I insist that I wouldn't and that I don't like children anyway. I don't know what they think is fatherly about me. I'd be so concerned about raising a good person I'd make mistakes everywhere.

 

[loveofreason]

Oh, apparently reading through the posts of the type genetics thread you know most of that. Nevermind

Maybe you could give me a folder next to Perseus' to work with so I can get feedback on some of the points I want to convey (once I figure out which points I'm gonna commit myself to).

If you'd like a spot to share your work in progress, the Inner Sanctum is safe from the prying eyes of googlebot. Just tell us what you'd like it called. (And we promise we won't plagarise, steal or otherwise publish your work as our own. )

 

[Decaf]

Let me finish some content and then I'll let you know too much pressure

 

[Wisp]

You mean the Inner Sanctum boards are only viewable by the registered?

 

[loveofreason]

Aye, if you don't want bots crawling through your inner-most thoughts, or lurkers making a scrapbook of your life, share just with us.