Thinker's Glories

[Duxwing]

Dear Forum,

The typical INTP will indeed spend hours discussing topics from philosophy and sociology to economics and war; though such studies are rewarding in and of themselves, they also, from time to time, bring about moments of such satisfaction and excitement that could indeed be called glories. But just what kind of glories?

An exhaustive, fundamental list would be: discovery, dissemination, and application. The first is the pure thrill of discovering a truth far more fundamental lurking behind a seemingly murky and irreducibly complex system. Next is dissemination, which becomes (and pardon my words) glorious when the INTP in question resolves a deep puzzle and reveals the solution to other thinkers, resulting in joy much like that following a sports championship victory. Finally, application is a less common but much more powerful effect of deep thought: the world, in the eyes of the thinker responsible for the discovery in question, becomes fundamentally, permananantly, and significantly better. For example, discovering that the town's sewer system, which earlier stank like rotting flesh, could be improved by an elegant system of pipes would give the thinker the rush of knowing "I did that with my mind!".

All other such 'Glories' should fall into those three categories. However, if I'm wrong, please do correct my interpretation and add to the list.

-Duxwing

 

[own8ge]

This bores my mind.

 

[pjoa09]

lol, wut?

 

[Cognisant]

@own8ge & @pjoa09

Don't be bitches, nobody's forcing you be a part of this thread.

Nor are you entitled to be here.

 

[own8ge]

@own8ge & @pjoa09

Don't be bitches, nobody's forcing you be a part of this thread.

Nor are you entitled to be here.

Not entitled to be here? lol!
feedback is a positive thing, isn't it? So how is it righteous to list us as being bitches?

Trust me, if I have a thread that gets zero response, it's way harder for me to process than if it has loads of negative feedback replies. I'd also rather have objective responses (Both positive and negative feedback) and I can imagine decent people appreciate this aswell.

 

[LarsMac]

I just like to watch.

 

[redbaron]

Dear Forum,

The typical INTP will indeed spend hours discussing topics from philosophy and sociology to economics and war; though such studies are rewarding in and of themselves, they also, from time to time, bring about moments of such satisfaction and excitement that could indeed be called glories. But just what kind of glories?

Sociology - boring
Philosophy - boring, too many people who who can't see outside their own opinions
Economics - snore
War - too much effort too many people who are over-opinionated and get all emotional when the topic comes up

I can think of better things to do with my time.

 

[Ocofan]

Like what? I've been pretty bored lately...

 

[nanook]

> "For example, discovering that the town's sewer system ...."

suddenly: super mario invaded his line of thoughts

i can relate. happened to myself, in glorious moments.

 

[kantor1003]

//Requesting ban of own8ge, pjoa09, LarsMac, redbaron and Ocofan. Reason: their posts speak for themselves.//
(Note to thou, troubled self: judge not lest ye be judged yourself.)

 

[pjoa09]

@own8ge & @pjoa09

Don't be bitches, nobody's forcing you be a part of this thread.

Nor are you entitled to be here.

That escalated quickly.

Should have put the 'a' behind the 'i'.

It's fairly obvious that the way the post is written it, it leaves not much room for contribution and the introduction somehow strikes the viewer with surprise.

Just to be a bit of an ass, 'Y U NO PUT IN LIST FORM?'.

It's not user friendly.

I think OP was headed for "What gives you that dopamine high?" thread.

A skimming eye (maybe it was just mine,most likely) would have difficulty understanding the post and the purpose of the thread.

Now that I am a bit free I could share my dope moments.

1) When I fix an electronic device instantly after receiving it and the problem was novel.

2) When I got Slackware's wireless working after 3 months. In defense, I never had much time to work on it.

3) Not INTP related (Maybe not even thread related) : When my car fails to gain traction in the rain and the traction control tries to control the slip. Makes all sorts of noises.

4) Novel and extravagant approaches to simple missions, i.e. GTA franchise.

 

[Kuu]

@pjoa09 & @own8ge, I would heed Cognisant's sensible thoughts. He was a mod once, after all. If you have nothing at all to contribute to Duxwing's thread, keep your empty words to yourselves.

@kantor1003 I like how you think.

Also, own8ge, either you shorten your sig or I will do it. It's obnoxious. When your signature is longer than your posts' content, you're doing INTPforum wrong. Let this be a lesson to all.


Now, back to the topic at hand.

I really like your categorization, Dux, and while I engage all three modes I think it correlates nicely with some stages I've experienced in life. When I was young I was almost entirely dedicated to discovery/observation. Eventually I grew more into the dissemination mode and no longer kept my thoughts to myself, and I sought after people willing to listen and discuss, and I indeed enjoy lengthy explanations of subjects I feel well informed about (and those I'm not so well informed about), and I can certainly talk at length with great pleasure when prodded with the right and honest inquiry. In the last couple of years, and up to now, application has been my biggest concern. There's only so much one can do by going over the same idea in one's head or through having the same debates with the usual people over and over, one has to go and experiment in real life.

Eschewing myself from restrictive environments and acquiring the adequate resources and collaborators needed has however proven to be quite an obstacle, and led to considerable frustration. Some have observed that what could be called 'achievement' is something that INTPs seem to be doomed to perpetual struggle with, considering the predominant ways of thinking and doing that dominate society.

Just earlier today a friend has offered a glimmer of opportunity to engage in application of some things I've been ranting on for years (and in fact engage on all three of the 'glories') just as i have relieved myself from a large and unavoidable burden on my freedom. It seems quite promising indeed.

 

[own8ge]

@kantor1003
I sense Judge Judy.

egocentric predicament

@Kuu
I will not contribute to someones else subjective idealism. (Nor bow down for any man standing)

egocentric predicament

Spoiler

Excessive information is irrelevant thus a short post, just not to bother with TL;DR

 

[pjoa09]

The avatar definitely does reflect @Kuu .

 

[yogurtexpress]

DID YOU IMPROVE THE TOWN'S SEWER SYSTEM OR DID YOU JUST THINK ABOUT IT?

GOD, I FUCKING HATE LAZY INTPS

 

[Duxwing]

DID YOU IMPROVE THE TOWN'S SEWER SYSTEM OR DID YOU JUST THINK ABOUT IT?

GOD, I FUCKING HATE LAZY INTPS

You gave me a laugh. A good, hearty belly laugh.

-Duxwing

 

[BigApplePi]

Late to this thread Duxwing

The typical INTP will indeed spend hours discussing topics from philosophy and sociology to economics and war; though such studies are rewarding in and of themselves, they also, from time to time, bring about moments of such satisfaction and excitement that could indeed be called glories. But just what kind of glories?

Those topics are mysteries. How do they work? Why are they topics others IRL have chosen? Maybe the glories are of discovery after the sufferings of ignorance ... any discovery however small. Another aspect is Si (internal sensual) satisfaction. I have proved many mathematical theorems (admittedly most for homework). There is a great deal of satisfaction in finding the proofs.

An exhaustive, fundamental list would be: discovery, dissemination, and application. The first is the pure thrill of discovering a truth far more fundamental lurking behind a seemingly murky and irreducibly complex system. Next is dissemination, which becomes (and pardon my words) glorious when the INTP in question resolves a deep puzzle and reveals the solution to other thinkers, resulting in joy much like that following a sports championship victory. Finally, application is a less common but much more powerful effect of deep thought: the world, in the eyes of the thinker responsible for the discovery in question, becomes fundamentally, permananantly, and significantly better. For example, discovering that the town's sewer system, which earlier stank like rotting flesh, could be improved by an elegant system of pipes would give the thinker the rush of knowing "I did that with my mind!".

Whoops. I just duplicated what you said much better in your 2nd paragraph. Anyway I just thought of something "glorious" and maybe someone can figure out if it deserves that and has any merit:

You know about Einstein's things about space-time. All four dimensions are really alike. Time is just one of the dimensions of space-time. Well I was puzzling about recent Pod'Lair claims of truth and the apparent contrast with their questioned presentation format. How about this: Truth and presentation are all one. They are a couple dimensions we can call truth-format. Presentation counts to reach truth. Without a presentation there is no truth. Without some kind of truth behind it, presentation is worthless. That's just my Ne (intuition expressed). I leave it to you to others to say it better or give a better proof.


@own8ge

This bores my mind.

Perhaps it has not awakened in you. You have not experienced it. Wait if it happens. It's like a drug.


@pjoa09

It's fairly obvious that the way the post is written it, it leaves not much room for contribution and the introduction somehow strikes the viewer with surprise.
Just to be a bit of an ass, 'Y U NO PUT IN LIST FORM?'.
It's not user friendly.

I've experienced that. I feel badly when I've written non-user friendly stuff and think I have an idea. I guess it's partly a two-way street. How do you make it user friendly and to whom? How do I interpret a user-friendless message to get something out of it?


@redbaron

Sociology - boring
Philosophy - boring, too many people who who can't see outside their own opinions
Economics - snore
War - too much effort too many people who are over-opinionated and get all emotional when the topic comes up
I can think of better things to do with my time.

I felt a lot like that when I was in school. Some of those things were forced on me. I did not have the need ... inspiration was lacking. It depends a lot on the teacher. I got one terrific inspiring teacher and thought a lot about what he said.


@kantor1003

//Requesting ban of own8ge, pjoa09, LarsMac, redbaron and Ocofan. Reason: their posts speak for themselves.//
(Note to thou, troubled self: judge not lest ye be judged yourself.)

They are saying they are asleep. They posted as much. How can they be woken up?


@Kuu

@those guys, I would heed Cognisant's sensible thoughts. He was a mod once, after all. If you have nothing at all to contribute to Duxwing's thread, keep your empty words to yourselves.

... Now, back to the topic at hand.

It makes sense not to put down a thread ... especially a good one. Yet I tried to say something to those guys as an intermediary. If their reaction was not so good, perhaps they lack experience and they should be presented with experience.


@yogurtexpress

DID YOU IMPROVE THE TOWN'S SEWER SYSTEM OR DID YOU JUST THINK ABOUT IT?

GOD, I FUCKING HATE LAZY INTPS

My impression is INTP's are not lazy at thinking, but they are not good at action. So we could say they are not lazy. INTP's could contact the EJ's who are gung ho for action. It's a specialty division of labor, lol.

 

[Duxwing]

Late to this thread Duxwing

Those topics are mysteries. How do they work? Why are they topics others IRL have chosen? Maybe the glories are of discovery after the sufferings of ignorance ... any discovery however small. Another aspect is Si (internal sensual) satisfaction. I have proved many mathematical theorems (admittedly most for homework). There is a great deal of satisfaction in finding the proofs.

Whoops. I just duplicated what you said much better in your 2nd paragraph. Anyway I just thought of something "glorious" and maybe someone can figure out if it deserves that and has any merit:

You know about Einstein's things about space-time. All four dimensions are really alike. Time is just one of the dimensions of space-time. Well I was puzzling about recent Pod'Lair claims of truth and the apparent contrast with their questioned presentation format. How about this: Truth and presentation are all one. They are a couple dimensions we can call truth-format. Presentation counts to reach truth. Without a presentation there is no truth. Without some kind of truth behind it, presentation is worthless. That's just my Ne (intuition expressed). I leave it to you to others to say it better or give a better proof.


@own8ge
Perhaps it has not awakened in you. You have not experienced it. Wait if it happens. It's like a drug.


@pjoa09I've experienced that. I feel badly when I've written non-user friendly stuff and think I have an idea. I guess it's partly a two-way street. How do you make it user friendly and to whom? How do I interpret a user-friendless message to get something out of it?


@redbaron
I felt a lot like that when I was in school. Some of those things were forced on me. I did not have the need ... inspiration was lacking. It depends a lot on the teacher. I got one terrific inspiring teacher and thought a lot about what he said.


@kantor1003

They are saying they are asleep. They posted as much. How can they be woken up?


@Kuu

It makes sense not to put down a thread ... especially a good one. Yet I tried to say something to those guys as an intermediary. If their reaction was not so good, perhaps they lack experience and they should be presented with experience.


@yogurtexpress

My impression is INTP's are not lazy at thinking, but they are not good at action. So we could say they are not lazy. INTP's could contact the J's who are gung ho for action. It's a specialty division of labor, lol.

Thanks for the great response, BigApplePi! I think that you missed yogurt express's sarcasm at the end, though.

-Duxwing

 

[EyeSeeCold]

Duxwing, why are you only focusing on INTPs? The mental glory you're referring to should relate to any of the N or T types.

But regardless, it takes an extraordinary person to make an extraordinary achievement(disregarding accidents of course).

//Requesting ban of own8ge, pjoa09, LarsMac, redbaron and Ocofan. Reason: their posts speak for themselves.//
(Note to thou, troubled self: judge not lest ye be judged yourself.)

Let he who is without fluff, make the first ban.

 

[Duxwing]

Duxwing, why are you only focusing on INTPs? The mental glory you're referring to should relate to any of the N or T types.

But regardless, it takes an extraordinary person to make an extraordinary achievement(disregarding accidents of course).



Let he who is without fluff, make the first ban.

You're absolutely right. I agree. I should have thought of that first.

-Duxwing

 

[Vrecknidj]

An exhaustive, fundamental list would be: discovery, dissemination, and application.

That's quite a claim. I'm not presently in the right frame of mind to think through to conclusion, but, I'm inclined to argue that it's not exhaustive.

...

All other such 'Glories' should fall into those three categories. However, if I'm wrong, please do correct my interpretation and add to the list.

I'm curious if you're willing to extend beyond what you've listed to other kinds of experiences. For example, the kinds of glories that might come about by overcoming something emotional or physical.

 

[Duxwing]

That's quite a claim. I'm not presently in the right frame of mind to think through to conclusion, but, I'm inclined to argue that it's not exhaustive.
I'm curious if you're willing to extend beyond what you've listed to other kinds of experiences. For example, the kinds of glories that might come about by overcoming something emotional or physical.

The list deals only with intellectual glories. Emotional and physical glories may come next; from those, I could then derive a higher-order set of general glories from which other glories could be derived as special cases. Until then, though, only glories of the mind.

-Duxwing

 

[BigApplePi]

The list deals only with intellectual glories. Emotional and physical glories may come next; from those, I could then derive a higher-order set of general glories from which other glories could be derived as special cases. Until then, though, only glories of the mind.
-Duxwing

On the emotional side, to be recognized. Especially for seclusive INTPs. The E's are used to recognition, but for an INTP??? I remembered last week something I had thought that was semi-original or maybe original. I'd like to be recognized for that. Unfortunately it's not going to happen ... at least not today. (I forgot what it was.)

Don't know if this is a thinker's glory or a physical glory. I was interested in setting personal bests running and weight lifting. I trained for both (at different times). I was very pleased when I reached a peak in both as I put thought into getting there. I can rest on those laurels as it's been all downhill since, lol. As to recognition, the recognition comes from myself. Few or none know my personal bests and no one but me cares.

 

[pjoa09]

@pjoa09I've experienced that. I feel badly when I've written non-user friendly stuff and think I have an idea. I guess it's partly a two-way street. How do you make it user friendly and to whom? How do I interpret a user-friendless message to get something out of it?

Defining purpose of the thread, introduction, body, and conclusion separately.

I normally make question threads and I don't think I have ever made an idea thread before.

 

[Kuu]

It makes sense not to put down a thread ... especially a good one. Yet I tried to say something to those guys as an intermediary. If their reaction was not so good, perhaps they lack experience and they should be presented with experience.

Perhaps they don't lack experience, they lack any interest in actually engaging in meaningful conversation relative to the thread's topic, nor respect for those who do...

 

[BigApplePi]

Perhaps they don't lack experience, they lack any interest in actually engaging in meaningful conversation relative to the thread's topic, nor respect for those who do...

Hi Kuu. Suppose you are right. What do we DO about it? Do we warn the person as to banning? Do we advocate deleting the post? Do we force them to do something else? I may be very wrong about this, but I like psychology. This forum is about personality types. Everyone who replies is a person. Here are some actual replies I would guess you are talking about:

"This bores my mind."
"lol, wut?"

When I see those I ignore them and move on most likely. But if someone calls attention to them, I find that interesting. Not everyone, in fact most, don't feel that way. So tell me if I'm out of line ...

I see both of those responses were not zero. They took the time to comment. The comments are negative, yet I don't see them as attention trolls. They are real. In the first case if someone is bored, what would turn them on? When I talked about experience I meant that were not experienced enough to connect up the OP theme with their experience.

What is missing from the original post theme that didn't get across? Notice several hours passed before anyone responded. That means there was an empty space of no responses. Cognizant didn't care for those responses. He had an opinion which seemed sincere yet it wasn't on "Thinker's Glories" either.

My frame of mind is, if I'm so inclined, to make a response to controversies and having done that, get right back on the original topic if I have something. I try to be positive.

I don't know what else to say. Have I said too much already?