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The Role of Fi in Ti-Fe

Duxwing

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INTPs often complain that their trickster inferior Fe leads them on disastrous quests for love, validation, and appreciation, and their MBTI-aware peers often call this problem inherent and intractable by anything but aging. I tentatively counter that those whose minds Ti dominates will consciously and totally reject Fi and the emotional self-validation thereof as irrational or evil. Some generalized sample quotes from such people might be, "I need objective meaning," "How could you just do that for yourself?" or "I need to be needed". With Fi silenced, INTPs must process their emotions through Fe alone and therefore require--not merely enjoy--external validation of their selves and lives to replace Fi until they recognize the role and importance of the-oft rejected function in their minds.

The subtext of the three aforementioned quotes is as follows: "I need objective meaning" means "I need validation and a sense of security regarding my conscience and concept of self," "How could you just do that for yourself?" means "I don't believe that my wants and needs are worth fulfilling relative to those of others," and "I need to be needed" means "I can't feel good about myself or my actions unless they help others". Enjoying happiness brought unto others by one's actions and feeling the importance of others' needs are healthy and important, but allowing these thoughts and behaviors to dominate the psyche denies one one's Self and places one's most tender feelings at the mercy of the world.

Yet Fi, upon being removed from the conscious mind, is not destroyed, but rather shunted like a railway car into the depths of the unconscious mind wherein, like a runaway train, it causes untold harm. Expressing illogical thoughts to an INTP, however, often quickly raises Fi from its depths in the form of frustration, anger, and attempts at correction because many INTPs have an ideal--a subjective purpose and meaning from Fi--about making their thoughts logical. Recognizing that this feeling is not an objective meaning is therefore a good first step in unraveling the Fi of an INTP and preventing such woes as existential despair, which amounts to the emotional starvation cause by an absence of Fe validation in finding the often sought after Meaning of Life in philosophy and the rejection of Fi in the mind.

Some INTPs attempt to 'integrate' their inferior functions through many and sundry methods. One popular and ill-fated attempt is taking up philosophy, wherein INTPs see a playground of Ti, Ne, and Si with a huge prize of validation and appreciation (Fe) along with internal security (Fi, Ni, Si); incidentally, INTPs rarely think much of life after finding the meaning of life, but my thoughts of it greatly resemble an eternal paradise of childhood--think of animated Disney movies and Magic Treehouse books--wherein all the eight functions can safely roam and play. Ti can rest and derive at leisure, Ne can chart a course for the future, Si can enjoy continuity forever, Fe is warmed by the warmth and love and worship of untold billions to come, Te can finally draw a hard-nosed conclusion and write its definitive tomes, Ni can explore and wonder without madness, Se can be freed to see the world, and the Fi ideal--which describes all of the preceding paradise--is finally achieved. In deriving the meaning of life, the INTP becomes a god with his or her own religion--the ultimate grandeur, the ultimate life. Yet as we feel the glow of this Fi we all know that knowledge--much less objective meaning--cannot be ascertained: to become a God, the INTP would already have to be a God. And as the ideal crumbles, so does the INTP.

Another method of integrating the inferior while rejecting Fi is intellectual activity in the service of others. This pursuit differs from philosophy in that its goals are achievable, but the same psychodrama remains: newly minted INTP coders want to write a strong AI or architect the Singularity, fresh-faced INTP physicists want to complete the Standard Model or understand Dark Matter, and greenhorn INTP mathematicians want to best Galwa. Were they to acknowledge that they don't need external validation to accept themselves and their lives and decided upon what they wanted to do by how they felt after a thorough review of the associated facts, such problems would not occur. And moreover, grandiosity comes up again and again: Fe judges and acts, deciding for others and ruling their lives with a cotton fist--yet it needs power to do so. In considering the impact that their work may have on others, INTPs assume that their work will ever amount to anything at all; that fundamental assumption about an undecided question will drive unwitting INTPs insane with frustrated narcissism.

Yet an INTP who acknowledges their Fi despite its subjectivity and uses it appropriately without letting it silence their Fe may very well have the drive and will to achieve such feats. Thus we are left at the question that has driven me--for much of this essay has been a reflection upon myself--and others to intellectualization and despair: who am I? The answer comes from inside each of us.

-Duxwing
 

TimeAsylums

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my thoughts of it greatly resemble an eternal paradise of childhood--think of animated Disney movies and Magic Treehouse books--wherein all the eight functions can safely roam and play. Ti can rest and derive at leisure, Ne can chart a course for the future, Si can enjoy continuity forever, Fe is warmed by the warmth and love and worship of untold billions to come, Te can finally draw a hard-nosed conclusion and write its definitive tomes, Ni can explore and wonder without madness, Se can be freed to see the world, and the Fi ideal--which describes all of the preceding paradise--is finally achieved.

...who am I? The answer comes from inside each of us.

-Duxwing
And thus, Duxwing overcame existential despair.
 

Polaris

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Duxwing said:
Yet Fi, upon being removed from the conscious mind, is not destroyed, but rather shunted like a railway car into the depths of the unconscious mind wherein, like a runaway train, it causes untold harm. Expressing illogical thoughts to an INTP, however, often quickly raises Fi from its depths in the form of frustration, anger, and attempts at correction because many INTPs have an ideal--a subjective purpose and meaning from Fi--about making their thoughts logical. Recognizing that this feeling is not an objective meaning is therefore a good first step in unraveling the Fi of an INTP and preventing such woes as existential despair, which amounts to the emotional starvation cause by an absence of Fe validation in finding the often sought after Meaning of Life in philosophy and the rejection of Fi in the mind.

You hit the nail on the head. Thank you for expressing what I have been attempting to formulate in my mind for ages.

Edit: btw, that was a beautiful piece of writing.
 

Duxwing

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You hit the nail on the head. Thank you for expressing what I have been attempting to formulate in my mind for ages.

Booyah! *smiles and spins around on one foot like a top* *Fe glows*

-Duxwing
 

BigApplePi

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Duxwing. Top notch insight so I concur with Polaris . I wrote a short response earlier last evening but my computer went down and I ran outta time. My Fi hardly knows what to do with this topic. I will post it (or something) later (the short response) when I return from my obligatory activities this AM and see if this can be an expanded topic or if it is has verboten ramifications.
 

Architect

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Interesting ideas. Parse it out for me, how exactly do you think Fi is working in the Te-Fe context? It seems that you are saying that Ti-Fe sets the stage - the desire for an intellectual achievement in the service of humanity for example, but it's the shadowy and unconscious Fi (depth of personal feelings) which can throw a monkey wrench in the works? It can turn this natural motivation into grandiosity and thus create a pathological complex. Is that a fair reading?

It seems that you say this is almost inevitable, I'd counter that can happen but often doesn't. Einstein for instance seemed to be relatively immune from it, and did go on to achieve the INTP ideal. He also shoved the "merely personal" (his quote) out of his life (Fi) which perhaps was his denial of Fi.

Thinking back on me this could explain the role of music in my life to some extent. I've been thinking recently that there is something going on with my relationship with music, which is a Fe activity. For me it stirs up personal emotions in an intense way, and I resist pathological behaviors such as devoting my life to perfecting a stereo to achieve "perfect" music reproduction. Perhaps that is a shadow Fi coming into play? But it seems that you are saying that Fi, when "shoved" into the unconscious is when it becomes pathological.

So, that's my question, the shadow functions, if they exist which I believe they do, are naturally in the unconscious position. You however seem to be saying that they are destructive that way, and that we should make the shadow functions conscious?
 

kvothe27

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-Ti views Fi values as irrational and/or evil; and, in so doing, alienates them (this is possible since they're preferences)

- In alienating Fi values, he seeks them through such things as objective meaning, often resulting in studying philosophy

-Also, in alienating Fi values, Fe takes a stronger role as the trickster

- This is exacerbated via Pygmalion projects exerted on self through grade school, religious upbringing, etc

- This occurs so heavily and detrimentally, the INTP is forced to pick up the pieces in phase II development by attempting to strengthen Fi, and by doing so, attempts to integrate Fe

- due to the difficulty of this, INTPs often find themselves on a long road of indirect self-acceptance via trying to, for example, code a true AI, etc


- However, if INTP found proper places within psyche for Fe and Fi, attempting to, for example, code a true AI, would not be an attempt at indirect self-acceptance; it would be a healthy outlet for a healthy INTP

Yes?
 

Duxwing

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Interesting ideas. Parse it out for me, how exactly do you think Fi is working in the Te-Fe context? It seems that you are saying that Ti-Fe sets the stage - the desire for an intellectual achievement in the service of humanity for example, but it's the shadowy and unconscious Fi (depth of personal feelings) which can throw a monkey wrench in the works? It can turn this natural motivation into grandiosity and thus create a pathological complex. Is that a fair reading?

Fi sets an ideal that I described, but only the Fe portion of the ideal--the warm and fuzzies from helping people and the global context--remains conscious; conversely, the Fi portion, which consists of a narcissistic orgasm wherein the INTP feels their own genius (genius being necessary) and a simple breakdown in tears at achieving this ideal, remains almost entirely unconscious.

It seems that you say this is almost inevitable, I'd counter that can happen but often doesn't. Einstein for instance seemed to be relatively immune from it, and did go on to achieve the INTP ideal. He also shoved the "merely personal" (his quote) out of his life (Fi) which perhaps was his denial of Fi.

My experiences at INTPf have pointed to INTPs often so being; however, if you have contrary evidence, then by all means, present it! :) I don't think that Einstein was an INTP, but rather an INTJ: many of his answers came from inexplicable intuition (Ni) as do many of ProxyAmenRa's. INTPs with a narcissistic dream of becoming the next Einstein (not necessarily anyone here :) ) might want to think that he was an INTP because so being puts them closer to achieving their dream.

Thinking back on me this could explain the role of music in my life to some extent. I've been thinking recently that there is something going on with my relationship with music, which is a Fe activity. For me it stirs up personal emotions in an intense way, and I resist pathological behaviors such as devoting my life to perfecting a stereo to achieve "perfect" music reproduction. Perhaps that is a shadow Fi coming into play? But it seems that you are saying that Fi, when "shoved" into the unconscious is when it becomes pathological.

Precisely. You may have an Fi ideal of perfect music reproduction; don't beat it down if it's irrational--that's how it originally got down in your unconscious mind--but rather just let the feelings and ideals flow. Experience them and accept them as your feelings. You'll feel like you're in your own little world, but such is Fi.

So, that's my question, the shadow functions, if they exist which I believe they do, are naturally in the unconscious position. You however seem to be saying that they are destructive that way, and that we should make the shadow functions conscious?

I hold that the shadow functions are naturally unconscious and that people don't want to use or face them because they consciously but unwittingly reject the top function in favor of its corresponding shadow function (e.g., Fi rejected in favor of Fe) because the shadow function upsets them; when people unconsciously or unwittingly use their shadow functions maladaptively (e.g., an INTP's ideal of achieving utopia through discovery) the mental 'barrier' that their internal conflict erected prevents them from acknowledging that it exists.

Once the barrier is broken down and the conflict acknowledged, the conflict should be resolved by understanding and accepting its associated thoughts and feelings, whatever they may be and then working with either a mental health professional or a good knowledge of psychology to treat the particular maladaptive thoughts and behaviors. For example, Architect, I hold that (this idea is tentative) you should look for the source of your intense personal feelings about music and acknowledge its importance in your life: see if it is rational or irrational, and if it's rational, then see if its resulting behaviors (e.g., perfect music reproduction) are rational or irrational and then accept the complexity of the feelings that result from realizing that perfect music reproduction may not be achievable. INTPs have a tendency to use Fi only for a moment and then stop when fully healing the problem in question involves using it for at least a few minutes.

In sum, I hold that we must be able to use all eight functions to a sufficient degree that we can treat problems in any one of them so that unconscious conflicts and desires do not sabotage our lives.

---

The general case formula for understanding which function conflicts with which is as follows:

Invert the content (S<->N, T<->F) of a given function in the top stack to discover the shadow function with which the top stack function is in direct conflict. Invert the direction of this second function to discover the function in favor of which the shadow is rejected.

The person in question will attempt to use the top stack function and the function in favor of which the shadow is rejected to fulfill the desires of the shadow by replacing it with the other aforementioned two functions. INTPs, for example, may not be able to accept that their desire to discover truth and understand logic is subjective because they predominantly make subjective decisions by logic and not emotion, and they therefore displace their ideal into the altruism and harmony-seeking of Fe while repressing the implicit narcissistic dream of the achieving intellectual godhood necessary to fulfill the ideal.

An INTP can see their Fi by imagining and describing aloud or in writing the day of their unraveling the ultimate mystery. I would like INTPs who are reading this essay to do so and post their descriptions here without fear of shame before reading the spoiler lest my hypothesis color the results.

Switching from unconscious imagination to conscious description also brings Fi into the conscious mind, and the seemingly irrational idealism thereof will initially revolt the INTP, who will want to push Fi back into the unconscious. Untying the Fi knots, so to speak, however, requires keeping Fi in the conscious mind and working through all of its emotions. Doing so is difficult and may take days of intermittent but concerted effort, but the task is doable.

---

@BigApplePi Thanks! :)

@kvothe27 Your analysis is spot on (though I suspect that some details thereof may differ from INTP to INTP) and your conclusion about the Strong AI is correct: the project can be a healthy outlet of Ti, Ne, and Si.

-Duxwing
 

Architect

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In sum, I hold that we must be able to use all eight functions to a sufficient degree that we can treat problems in any one of them so that unconscious conflicts and desires do not sabotage our lives.

That's the summary I was looking for. I agree with this idea. An easy example is Se - everybody in this world has to use Se, to take in the external world and react to it. Obviously we all have Se therefore. Examining those with Se not in their stack (e.g. INTP's) we see a person who obviously doesn't prefer the function, but if they are well functioning they obviously must have learned how to use it at least.

On grandiosity though (for INTP's) I think that is an inferior grip type experience, not a shadow grip as you are suggesting. It's Fe wanting external adulation from others, not Fi personal emotions.

Finally I completely disagree with Einstein as an INTJ. When I was a physicist I thought of myself as an INTJ (a common condition as Drenth discusses) but still thought he was an INTP. You have to examine his personal life, not his work. The Pod'Lair people made the same mistake and typed him as an INFJ. What you both missed is that his work is part and parcel of what theoretical physicists do. We were taught to work this way in school. Call it Ni if you wish, but all that was is the germination of the theory and the least part of it. It was the years of Ti-Ne which developed the theory. At any rate it's irrelevant because the proof is in the life, and if you read his personal correspondence and life as I did you see a clear INTP.

By the way I don't have issues with music and what I think is Fi in its operation, but was just using it for illustration.
 

BigApplePi

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Duxwing. I had to copy my last night response
Duxwing. Let me take an uncertain guess and you can tell me (if you want to) if I'm close. The very post you just made (OP) is an example of extended personal internal thoughts (Ti) covering the thread topic and presenting it to us (Fe) in readable form. You DO have a feeling while presenting this post (meaning Fi) but it is not dwelled on in consciousness. You do not say, "I like posting this and if you don't like it you are an unworthy reader" or "If you ignore my post I will stuff my feelings and ignore you" or "I will be delighted if you find my post has something new to say." Those would be Fi.
over to another computer but when I reread it this afternoon I decided it was obsolete.

It is my ardent wish that regardless of our type (INTP in most our interests though) that this Fi-Ti-Fe thing be resolved or simplified or explained in some sort of universal communicable terms. I personally don't see why we can't move between the Fe-Fi line. After all what is it? It's just feelings directed with care about the outside world or feelings within ourselves and though those are different, so what? Let me show you what I mean with as primitive an example as I can think of at the moment. I'll take it from arithmetic.

I can use my Ti* (or is it Te?) to answer the question, are there any numbers which when added give the same answer when multiplied instead? Answer: Yes. Two and zero.

I could divulge to you that I'm terribly excited and fascinated by this. There is actually a number which when operated on by two entirely different operations (addition versus multiplication) give exactly the same answer. Fascinating. How could this be? What is so special about two? Then I think of zero. I reject that number as disgusting. Zero is too trivial to qualify as it applies trivially to too many other mathematical situations as to deserve any credit for this special situation.

Now notice how the above paragraph is loaded with Fi! It's not objective. It has to do with an internal feeling completely rejected by others who don't give one whit about this issue.

If I remove the emotion and just post the equation and the story, that is a social function, Fe. Fe only. So getting back to Fi ... what are we to make of this? Are the feelings expressed wrong? Irrational? Moral angst ... or any of the other Fi worries? My answer is those Fi feelings are perfectly legitimate. They are just feelings of the moment. They have no objective truth, but they are true in the moment. (A day later and those feelings could vanish.) Not only are they true in the moment but they would be irritating to have to explain. Why? Because the rational explanation would involve the whole of the utterers' being. Reason (Ti) could easily refute any of those feelings if one where to question the objectivity of "fascination", "disgusting", "trivial", "deserving." But that is not what's going on here. Subjectivity is like a snapshot. It's just as true as the more objective motion picture attempting to capture all sides of an issue.

Note that Ti can and will refute those feelings. Every one of those feelings if expressed consciously detracts from the facts of the situation. Fascination could be replaced by "obvious" or "who cares"? The effort is to say and prove 2+2 = 2x2 which is a formal process.

One thing I will ask is, is the above correct? Have I got the Ti-Fe-Fi thing right or am I off the mark?

I'll stop here.

*Internal calculation thinking; external thinking fact.
 

Duxwing

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That's the summary I was looking for. I agree with this idea. An easy example is Se - everybody in this world has to use Se, to take in the external world and react to it. Obviously we all have Se therefore. Examining those with Se not in their stack (e.g. INTP's) we see a person who obviously doesn't prefer the function, but if they are well functioning they obviously must have learned how to use it at least.

Precisely, and from this summary we can derive manifold conflicts:

Where '1' is the Dominant, '2' is the Auxilliary, ... '8' is the Devil'

1 vs 2, 3, ..., 8
2 vs 3, 4, ..., 8
3 vs 4, 5, ..., 8
...
7 vs 8

28 conflicts per type multiplied by 16 types for a total of 448 different psychological conflicts. Now I need a few weeks, an INTJ, a passel of ISTJs, and a longitudinal sample type to create out an exhaustive summary work, "Duxwing's Psychological Diagnostics". I wonder: would the text would have any practical applications?

On grandiosity though (for INTP's) I think that is an inferior grip type experience, not a shadow grip as you are suggesting. It's Fe wanting external adulation from others, not Fi personal emotions.

But would INTPs not pursue discovery or other intellectual achievement in the absence of adulation? I still feel an idealistic 'tug' or 'call' when I think of doing such things when all alone, and self-referential glory achieved by discovery seems to be part of said tug.

Finally I completely disagree with Einstein as an INTJ. When I was a physicist I thought of myself as an INTJ (a common condition as Drenth discusses) but still thought he was an INTP. You have to examine his personal life, not his work. The Pod'Lair people made the same mistake and typed him as an INFJ. What you both missed is that his work is part and parcel of what theoretical physicists do. We were taught to work this way in school. Call it Ni if you wish, but all that was is the germination of the theory and the least part of it. It was the years of Ti-Ne which developed the theory. At any rate it's irrelevant because the proof is in the life, and if you read his personal correspondence and life as I did you see a clear INTP.

Oh, oops. :o I concede the point in your favor.

By the way I don't have issues with music and what I think is Fi in its operation, but was just using it for illustration.

Woah, I didn't say that you had issues with music. :) I was describing the means by which you could better call up and experience your Fi.

---

@BigApplePi Precisely! You've described a very good example of what I'm talking about.

-Duxwing
 
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