• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.
  • Done now. Domine miserere nobis.

The Math of Beauty

RubberDucky451

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
1,078
---
Location
California
I wasn't positive where to post this, but it's damn interesting.

Apparently the ratio 1.618 (Also called the phi ratio) has a lot to do with our perception of beauty. I'm sure it's not rock solid but all the applications of this ratio are astounding.


http://www.intmath.com/Numbers/mathOfBeauty.php
 

Latro

Well-Known Member
Local time
Yesterday 11:43 PM
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
755
---
Should be 1.618, and yes. Phi is a strange animal, though not as strange as pi, e, or i.
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
This is really fascinating (and slightly depressing).
To think that something that has such an effect on other people's perception of us is determined by mathmatics is intimidating...
 

RubberDucky451

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
1,078
---
Location
California

Mental Disarray

Redshirt
Local time
Yesterday 11:43 PM
Joined
Oct 24, 2009
Messages
6
---
The math of beauty is a perfect example of the beauty of math. That's why this is the stuff I plan on doing for the rest of my life. :)
 

Tunesimah

Man-Child becoming a Dude.... Man
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
164
---
Location
Wisconsin, USA
I love it. Knowing that everything has a formula that is unknown is incredible.

Another interesting article.

http://www.musicmasterworks.com/WhereMathMeetsMusic.html

Ooh, the mathematics of music! My favorite.

Math and Music are two fields that can elicit awe out of me. They seem fundamentally appealing, the patterns of a rhythm... the clever simplicity of a proof.

Math reveals something fundamental about the nature of the universe. Music reveals something fundamental about ourselves.

I've never really found items with the Golden Ratio that interesting. But I'm not one to appreciate beauty... outside of intellectual systems that is.
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
I love it. Knowing that everything has a formula that is unknown is incredible.

Another interesting article.

http://www.musicmasterworks.com/WhereMathMeetsMusic.html

It is amazing. It means that there is just that much more out there to be discovered.
To be able to explain things like beauty and music with numbers is extraordinary.
For me, it brings up the question of free will though, if all these things which shape our natures can be defined by numbers, then are we ourselves not defined aswell?
Which I don't think is a negative thing, infact it's really kind of cool, to think that no matter how useless or inadequate I may at times feel, I am serving some purpose or another.
Mathematics really just ties everything together so elegantly.
 

RubberDucky451

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
1,078
---
Location
California
It is amazing. It means that there is just that much more out there to be discovered.
To be able to explain things like beauty and music with numbers is extraordinary.
For me, it brings up the question of free will though, if all these things which shape our natures can be defined by numbers, then are we ourselves not defined aswell?
Which I don't think is a negative thing, infact it's really kind of cool, to think that no matter how useless or inadequate I may at times feel, I am serving some purpose or another.
Mathematics really just ties everything together so elegantly.

I'd probably diagnose myself as insane if i hadn't met people that think like me, it's quite freighting at first.

To love math is to love reason and logic. Life after death is also very intriguing to me, because life certainty seems pointless and replaceable without religion or anything of that sort.
 

Cassandra

Guest
The Golden Ratio is facinating...it pops up everywhere.

Even in chemistry and physics:


1.) The Golden Ratio arises in atomic dimensions due to the electrostatic forces between negative and positive charges

2.) the energy of atomic hydrogen is actually equivalent to the energy of the simplest atomic condenser with the Golden mean capacity

(3) All atoms can be assigned definite values of cationic and anionic radii based on the Golden ratio and covalent radii

Source: The Golden ratio, ionic and atomic radii and bond lengths by Raji Heyrovska
 

jsibley1

Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
51
---

That statement is more of an axiom based on practical experience than something that can be proved. Two eggs and one egg make the same number of eggs as one egg and two eggs. In abstract algebra (or modern algebra), a group with that property (for all elements) is called abelian. Structures can be created where 2+1 isn't the same as 1+2.

Of course, as you may suspect, the binary operator "+" isn't the same as the one that you are used to.

I'm tempted to write a novel for a post on this, but I'll refrain.
 

Toad

True King of Mushroomland!!!
Local time
Yesterday 8:43 PM
Joined
Apr 7, 2009
Messages
1,778
---
How long to ppl stay beautiful for? For normal people, I think they start getting ugly at around 30-35. Do our face shape change shape? No. Well, only our nose and ears. But our faces usually stay the same shape. So why do we get uglier, if it's based on the golden ratio?
 

Vrecknidj

Prolific Member
Local time
Yesterday 11:43 PM
Joined
Nov 21, 2007
Messages
2,196
---
Location
Michigan/Indiana, USA
What I really like about the Fibonacci sequence is that you can start with any two numbers and the ratio turns out the same after enough iterations. Absolutely fascinating.

I find it really strange that the square root of 5 plays such a prominent role in phi. I can't quite say what it is that this tells me, but it tells me something.

Dave
 

Dormouse

Mean can be funny
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
1,075
---
Location
HAPPY PLACE
How long to ppl stay beautiful for? For normal people, I think they start getting ugly at around 30-35. Do our face shape change shape? No. Well, only our nose and ears. But our faces usually stay the same shape. So why do we get uglier, if it's based on the golden ratio?


I don't think that's so much based on the golden ratio as our society's perception of beauty. Youth is considered much more attractive than age/experience. Just take a peek at all the pixie-thin models out there... Or how 'sexy' clothing is being marketed towards younger and younger girls.

That, or we might just find the wear and tear on the body unattractive, as it indicates the subject's health has begun to decline, or they are no longer in peak physical condition.

Also, I believe the age thing applies for the most part to women. Men can still look handsome well beyond 35. And I believe I read somewhere that laugh lines are considered attractive by women.
 

RubberDucky451

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
1,078
---
Location
California
How long to ppl stay beautiful for? For normal people, I think they start getting ugly at around 30-35. Do our face shape change shape? No. Well, only our nose and ears. But our faces usually stay the same shape. So why do we get uglier, if it's based on the golden ratio?

It could be the color and texture of our skin that's unappealing. I also assume we get less symmetrical as we age, and that subtracts from our technical beauty. Remember that the golden ratio also measures specific things like the width of the nose relating to the mouth, obviously if the nose is getting larger you're ruining the ratio.

I cannot wait for someone to ask me what beauty is, they'll get a long complex answer.

That, or we might just find the wear and tear on the body unattractive, as it indicates the subject's health has begun to decline, or they are no longer in peak physical condition.

You're right, it all boils down to mating. Like you mentioned there are signs of youth that are unconsciously attractive to us.

Also, I believe the age thing applies for the most part to women.

This is necessary I believe due to the fact that the woman is generally supposed to attract the mate.
 

Dormouse

Mean can be funny
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
1,075
---
Location
HAPPY PLACE
I cannot wait for someone to ask me what beauty is, they'll get a long complex answer.

So, what is beauty? :p

My own answer today would be that perceived beauty is the ignorance of faults, but thats just because I'm in a cynical mood.
 

RubberDucky451

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
1,078
---
Location
California
So, what is beauty? :p

My own answer today would be that perceived beauty is the ignorance of faults, but thats just because I'm in a cynical mood.

I also may answer differently depending on my mood or person who's asking me. "An appealing subconscious perception of an object or being based on mathematics."

I'm still not sure if that's even remotely accurate. :p
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
You're right, it all boils down to mating.
It's more than that though, because all animals mate, but most animals are not as centered around beauty as we are. For most animals, skin is skin, but we're different, because to raise larger brained children, we need to not only attract a mate, but we have to keep them around to take care of us and the child.
Beauty= perceived health(In good shape, symmetrical, healthy skin ect...)
so in other words, a healthy mate. But also, it's something that has the ability to inspire emotions in other humans (both positive and negative). A beautiful female might have more potential to keep the father around long enough to raise a child to adulthood.
We have beauty (and in my opinion, love) because we have bigger brains, and offspring with larger brains require more parenting, and more specifically, a father/mother parenting pair. I think this is also why we have social groups, as primates, because that would provide more care for the larger brained children(Watching each other's children). Plus more learning opportunity for them. The problem with this, is that we become so dependent on society that we've been given the instinct to want to be accepted by it.To not be alone. We were made to not be alone so that we could have larger brains, but having larger brains eventually leads to thinking. Thinking leads to individuality. When you think,you draw into yourself and reflect upoun your surrondings. Which is an evolutionary advantange, so mother-nature was sucessful in that regard, but to think is also to remove yourself from other people, so to think is to be alone. Thus, depression =P
 

RubberDucky451

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
1,078
---
Location
California
because to raise larger brained children, we need to not only attract a mate, but we have to keep them around to take care of us and the child.

And i thought love was selfless :(

We have beauty (and in my opinion, love) because we have bigger brains, and offspring with larger brains require more parenting, and more specifically, a father/mother parenting pair.
So we're better able to select a more capable mate because of love?

Thinking leads to individuality. When you think,you draw into yourself and reflect upoun your surrondings. Which is an evolutionary advantange, so mother-nature was sucessful in that regard, but to think is also to remove yourself from other people, so to think is to be alone. Thus, depression =P

That's true in a way, but it's almost paradoxical considering that we can maintain a greater connection to someone when we both wield a high intellect.
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
So we're better able to select a more capable mate because of love?
I don't think it has as much to do with selecting a more capable mate as it does with forming a connection with that mate, so they're less likely to leave the mother and the child to their own defenses. If there's an emotional attachment between the two mates, the child has two caretakers instead of one.


That's true in a way, but it's almost paradoxical considering that we can maintain a greater connection to someone when we both wield a high intellect.
That's a really good point. At the same time though, when that connection wanes, the anguish is twofold, because then there is an awareness of what was lost.
 

RubberDucky451

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
1,078
---
Location
California
I don't think it has as much to do with selecting a more capable mate as it does with forming a connection with that mate, so they're less likely to leave the mother and the child to their own defenses. If there's an emotional attachment between the two mates, the child has two caretakers instead of one.

Ok, that does make sense. It's pretty obvious that children need a father and a mother for a healthy childhood, although that's not irrefutable.



That's a really good point. At the same time though, when that connection wanes, the anguish is twofold, because then there is an awareness of what was lost.
That's just logic.
 

Ghost1986

Active Member
Local time
Today 9:43 AM
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
Messages
292
---
Location
The United States.
That statement is more of an axiom based on practical experience than something that can be proved. Two eggs and one egg make the same number of eggs as one egg and two eggs. In abstract algebra (or modern algebra), a group with that property (for all elements) is called abelian. Structures can be created where 2+1 isn't the same as 1+2.

Of course, as you may suspect, the binary operator "+" isn't the same as the one that you are used to.

I'm tempted to write a novel for a post on this, but I'll refrain.


or it could be i just felt like writing 1+2=2+1. perhaps my fun went too far?:phear:
 

jsibley1

Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Oct 30, 2009
Messages
51
---
or it could be i just felt like writing 1+2=2+1. perhaps my fun went too far?:phear:

I knew you weren't making a serious point.

And unwelcomed explanations is one reason why I don't have many friends...

;)
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
Ok, that does make sense. It's pretty obvious that children need a father and a mother for a healthy childhood, although that's not irrefutable.
While health is most certainly important, it's not just that, because a father/mother pair becomes less necessary the farther forward in history you move. In modern days, a single mother raising children is not at all unusual. My own mother raised me alone for quite some time. Thousands of years ago, a single mother would have faced many more challenges, because not only would she have to provide for her young, she would've had to raise them and teach them what they need to know about surviving, on her own. So a child without a father would not only have less of a chance of survival, because there would only be one parent to protect them, they would also have an educational disadvantage. Humans learn from observing more experienced humans. That's why now, having one parent is fine, because there is much more consistent contact with other adults, to learn from. (Example: school, daycare, other family members, the general public ect....) So modern civilazation almost eliminates the absolute NEED for a bond between two parents to raise sucessful offspring. Thus, the large increase in divorces. So one could almost argue that civilization destroyed sustainable love, by eliminating the evolutionary need for it. Of course we still have to deal with the emotional shit that's left over from the remnants of it. Our psychological wisdom teeth....
Perhaps love will one day dissapear in humans.
What a curious future that would be....
 

RubberDucky451

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
1,078
---
Location
California
While health is most certainly important, it's not just that, because a father/mother pair becomes less necessary the farther forward in history you move. In modern days, a single mother raising children is not at all unusual. My own mother raised me alone for quite some time. Thousands of years ago, a single mother would have faced many more challenges, because not only would she have to provide for her young, she would've had to raise them and teach them what they need to know about surviving, on her own. So a child without a father would not only have less of a chance of survival, because there would only be one parent to protect them, they would also have an educational disadvantage. Humans learn from observing more experienced humans. That's why now, having one parent is fine, because there is much more consistent contact with other adults, to learn from. (Example: school, daycare, other family members, the general public ect....) So modern civilazation almost eliminates the absolute NEED for a bond between two parents to raise sucessful offspring. Thus, the large increase in divorces. So one could almost argue that civilization destroyed sustainable love, by eliminating the evolutionary need for it. Of course we still have to deal with the emotional shit that's left over from the remnants of it. Our psychological wisdom teeth....
Perhaps love will one day dissapear in humans.
What a curious future that would be....

I'll agree with you, but this certainty can't apply to all children. Some children may have a difficult time learning from others besides their parents. Hopefully these life lessons are also beneficial.

modern civilazation almost eliminates the absolute NEED for a bond between two parents to raise sucessful offspring.

Now I don't even see a reason for marriage short of a being used to fulfill a domestic ritual.
 

Jordan~

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,964
---
Location
Dundee, Scotland
I sometimes question the validity of the notion that the Golden Ratio is somehow the basis of beauty. To me, it seems to be something of a remnant of the rationalism of the 17th century that really ought to have passed away when empiricism became prevalent later. I find beauty in assymetry, a face which is too "perfect" puts me off. It looks strange and inhuman, somehow unnatural. People's flaws are as much a part of their beauty as anything else, and a flawless face which perfectly corresponds to some mathematical formulation of beauty just looks boring.
The story told by Brian Sewell about Salvador Dali that he once ejaculated on the spot on seeing a nude youth emerging from the sea having cut his foot on a rock, with blood spilling into the water, reminds me that the beholder can find the most extreme beauty in almost anything. Many find beauty in ugliness; and I think that if it were true that we are instinctively drawn to one particular ratio, there would be far less variation in what people find attractive.

Re: Beauty and its relation to finding a mate.
I don't think that this is the purpose of our perception of beauty; rather, I say it has its instinctive roots in our need to find food and shelter. What we find beautiful in other people is specific to culture, I maintain, and to the individual - the reason for this, I think, is because when we see beauty in anything other than an environment, it is by analogy to our instinctive notion of environmental beauty that the thing is beautiful; i.e. a beautiful person is beautiful because their features are reminiscent of 'bounty' - and, being human, our notion of what constitutes 'bounty' is based on cultural awareness rather than on instinct.
We are far less picky about beauty than about other things when it comes to finding a mate, I think. While people do tend to be superficial at first, ultimately I think much of this is bluster and bravado - it's a form of competition. Because we share cultural awareness with others of our culture, and because we instinctively desire to possess what we perceive as beautiful (let me be clear here, what I'm saying is that beauty is what indicates plentiful resources in nature), we like to suggest to potential competitors that we could, if we wanted, possess a beautiful partner. What we keep to ourselves, or what we are not even aware of, is that we are often attracted, in mates, to something quite other than the conventional notion of beauty. That smell factors into the equation a great deal is significant - we do not look for beautiful smells, but for smells which indicate virility or femininty (i.e. smells which are rich in all the right pheromones), and therefore ability to reproduce. We also look for genetic variation, since a partner with genes very different from our own is more likely to produce healthy offspring. Thus, our assertions that we desire partners who possess the conventional image of beauty is an effort to convince potential mates of our own strength and dominance: we are saying that we can have what we want, we can have beautiful - and therefore, bountiful - things.

Additionally, I think that the theory that we select a mate on the basis that we can develop a strong bond with them is also invalid. Kinship is a cultural phenomenon, not an instinctive one; that is to say, it is not intrinsic to human nature that a child has a mother and a father. That is a peculiarity of our own kinship structure, which we defend using the ideology of science. There is a biological fact that the child has the genetic information of both parents, yes; but this is as valid a grounds for kinship as any. Children may have been communally raised in many early societies, where too much time had to be invested in the production of food for a healthy, fit individual of either sex to expend time and effort bringing up a child - rather, that duty would probably fall upon those too old or infirm to do anything else. This raises questions over what the biological purpose of love is. I think that it is not so much a matter of guaranteeing that the child will be raised successfully (after all, the chances are that it will die in infancy anyway), but rather that as soon as one pregnancy is over, another can begin - i.e. it is a mechanism by which a breeding pair, once they have found eachother, guarantee the continued production of offspring; largely so that when the first eight die there are another eleven on the go anyway. At the same time, I would stress that polyamory is perfectly possible, and alternative structures, where several mating partners are bound to eachother, are not only possible but, in fact, more efficient than breeding pairs - if one member of that structure dies, it does not really matter. We see this in some ancient societies - in Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome it was considered acceptable for a man to have sex with whatever woman (or man) he wanted, so long as she was not married to another man - marriage was a contract to ensure the inheritance of an estate, and was not otherwise related to reproduction.
 

Da Blob

Banned
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
5,926
---
Location
Oklahoma
While health is most certainly important, it's not just that, because a father/mother pair becomes less necessary the farther forward in history you move. In modern days, a single mother raising children is not at all unusual. My own mother raised me alone for quite some time. Thousands of years ago, a single mother would have faced many more challenges, because not only would she have to provide for her young, she would've had to raise them and teach them what they need to know about surviving, on her own. So a child without a father would not only have less of a chance of survival, because there would only be one parent to protect them, they would also have an educational disadvantage. Humans learn from observing more experienced humans. That's why now, having one parent is fine, because there is much more consistent contact with other adults, to learn from. (Example: school, daycare, other family members, the general public ect....) So modern civilazation almost eliminates the absolute NEED for a bond between two parents to raise sucessful offspring. Thus, the large increase in divorces. So one could almost argue that civilization destroyed sustainable love, by eliminating the evolutionary need for it. Of course we still have to deal with the emotional shit that's left over from the remnants of it. Our psychological wisdom teeth....
Perhaps love will one day dissapear in humans.
What a curious future that would be....
Children from one parent homes are put into at-risk categories by authorities. They do not measure up to or compete well with children from two parent homes in virtually every measurable categories. As a rule, they, as a group, are inferior in just about every way to children from two-parent households...

I do not mean to argue - this just a fact of life...
 

Jordan~

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
1,964
---
Location
Dundee, Scotland
Children from one parent homes are put into at-risk categories by authorities. They do not measure up to or compete well with children from two parent homes in virtually every measurable categories. As a rule, they, as a group, are inferior in just about every way to children from two-parent households...

I do not mean to argue - this just a fact of life...

This is not due to an intrinsic aspect of human nature, but rather to the disadvantages imposed on a single parent by society. Two parents are not a psychological necessity, but an economic benefit - and especially in societies where the poor are left to flounder until they're ripe for harvest by the military (like America), it's perfectly understandable why a single income family will struggle to support a child. I think you'll find that the same distinction applies to social class.
 

Da Blob

Banned
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Dec 19, 2008
Messages
5,926
---
Location
Oklahoma
This is not due to an intrinsic aspect of human nature, but rather to the disadvantages imposed on a single parent by society. Two parents are not a psychological necessity, but an economic benefit - and especially in societies where the poor are left to flounder until they're ripe for harvest by the military (like America), it's perfectly understandable why a single income family will struggle to support a child. I think you'll find that the same distinction applies to social class.

This is true and thanks for posting it. It is a trap sometimes to discount low SES (socio-economic status) as the variable responsible for social inequities. A great deal of problems are actually caused by a lack of income and nothing more than that...
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
This is not due to an intrinsic aspect of human nature, but rather to the disadvantages imposed on a single parent by society. Two parents are not a psychological necessity, but an economic benefit - and especially in societies where the poor are left to flounder until they're ripe for harvest by the military (like America), it's perfectly understandable why a single income family will struggle to support a child. I think you'll find that the same distinction applies to social class.


Agreed. The time period when my mother was raising me alone was one of the happiest times of my life. I would not at all say that I had any different disadvantages then any of the other children, due to the fact that I was being raised by a single parent. Of course her salary was much higher then it has ever been when I have lived in a two parent household. In addition, the independence that my mom experienced was actually benifical to the both of us. It would have been a very different situation if she had been making the amount of money that most single parents make.
I do agree that two parents are not a psychological necessity, but a great deal of interaction with other humans, is to a developing human being. Having two parents caring for the child would make it easier to achieve that in certian situations, but childhood interaction would not have to be limited to that social structure.
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
I sometimes question the validity of the notion that the Golden Ratio is somehow the basis of beauty. To me, it seems to be something of a remnant of the rationalism of the 17th century that really ought to have passed away when empiricism became prevalent later. I find beauty in assymetry, a face which is too "perfect" puts me off. It looks strange and inhuman, somehow unnatural. People's flaws are as much a part of their beauty as anything else, and a flawless face which perfectly corresponds to some mathematical formulation of beauty just looks boring.
The story told by Brian Sewell about Salvador Dali that he once ejaculated on the spot on seeing a nude youth emerging from the sea having cut his foot on a rock, with blood spilling into the water, reminds me that the beholder can find the most extreme beauty in almost anything. Many find beauty in ugliness; and I think that if it were true that we are instinctively drawn to one particular ratio, there would be far less variation in what people find attractive.
I do agree with you, beauty is a very abstract term, but I do definatly think there is something to the golden ratio. There is something very tantalizing about the unattainable, to humans(speaking generally). Perfection would definatly fall under that category. I think that the "perfect face" is what would most widely be recognized as beauty, but because there is so much varation in the people who observe the beauty of the world, then each person could have there own individual preferences. I heard it described somewhere that the mask created using the golden ratio, was considered beautiful because it was most easily recognizable as "human". The ideal human features. The same article also pointed out that little varations in the facial features, differing from the mask, could actually make a face more atractive. As you sayed, the "perfect" face was boring. This mask is just the building block for beauty, but like you said, the most fascinating beauty lies in uniqueness. I think that the golden ratio better explains why a face may be unattractive then it does what makes a face truly beautiful.
 

Beat Mango

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 3:43 PM
Joined
Mar 25, 2009
Messages
1,499
---
I read a science article and it referred to some studies being done where it was shown that some traits may exist in the organism purely to look pretty or sexy. It would follow then that they may choose their mates for no other reason than physical prettiness. Evolution theorists always seem to want to explain mating choices in terms of survival utility (eg, she would make a good mother, he would carry hood genes) but that may not always be the case.
 

RubberDucky451

Prolific Member
Local time
Today 4:43 AM
Joined
May 22, 2009
Messages
1,078
---
Location
California
I do agree with you, beauty is a very abstract term, but I do definatly think there is something to the golden ratio. There is something very tantalizing about the unattainable, to humans(speaking generally). Perfection would definatly fall under that category. I think that the "perfect face" is what would most widely be recognized as beauty, but because there is so much varation in the people who observe the beauty of the world, then each person could have there own individual preferences. I heard it described somewhere that the mask created using the golden ratio, was considered beautiful because it was most easily recognizable as "human". The ideal human features. The same article also pointed out that little varations in the facial features, differing from the mask, could actually make a face more atractive. As you sayed, the "perfect" face was boring. This mask is just the building block for beauty, but like you said, the most fascinating beauty lies in uniqueness. I think that the golden ratio better explains why a face may be unattractive then it does what makes a face truly beautiful.

Then the question is, when does a face go from unique beauty to strange or undesirable. I'm glad there are building blocks for beauty, imagine finding a mate if you were only attracted to a certain look. Overall it makes finding a mate easier, because everyone is generally attracted to the same thing.
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
Reply to Jordan:
I definatly agree with most of what you have said, but my problem with saying that beauty is not a factor in selecting a mate is this: varations in physical apreance are not present in many, if any, other animals, to nearly the same degree as in humans.
Yes, most other animals look for bounty and health in a mate. And yes, for most animals, mating/love is a competitive playing feild. "Beauty" in a mate is something that is fairly unique to humans, and so is love.
I think that the more that humans developed, the more civilization developed, physical appearance become less important in selecting a partner. As you said, people are much less picky about it, but I think that's a more recent developement, because thousands of years ago, people wouldn't have been able to critique a mates personality traits, so having beauty would have been a much more efficient way of finding a mate.
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
We see this in some ancient societies - in Mesopotamia, Greece and Rome it was considered acceptable for a man to have sex with whatever woman (or man) he wanted, so long as she was not married to another man - marriage was a contract to ensure the inheritance of an estate, and was not otherwise related to reproduction.
Yes, but as you said, these are societies. If you take a look at one of my previous posts, I mention that civilization is the downfall of love.
Before that, it was an entirely different matter. And that's what I'm refering to when I talk about the developement of humans and the love/beauty relationship.
 

Nicholas A. A. E.

formerly of the Basque-lands
Local time
Yesterday 8:43 PM
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
506
---
Location
Shoreline, Washington
... I think that's a more recent developement, because thousands of years ago, people wouldn't have been able to critique a mates personality traits, so having beauty would have been a much more efficient way of finding a mate.
I wouldn't be so quick to assert this. Psychologists have been learning, for example, that babies are pretty dang smart, compared to what we thought a while ago. The same is probably true of early humans. Heck, we had language thousands of years ago. But even before we developed language, we would've been able to select for certain behaviours and personality characteristics. At least, it seems to me we should have been able to.
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
I wouldn't be so quick to assert this. Psychologists have been learning, for example, that babies are pretty dang smart, compared to what we thought a while ago. The same is probably true of early humans. Heck, we had language thousands of years ago. But even before we developed language, we would've been able to select for certain behaviours and personality characteristics. At least, it seems to me we should have been able to.
Oh I'm not saying we did not have the capacity for these things, I'm just saying that we didn't have the time. Modern people would have similiar problems if they had the same living conditions as ancient peoples.
I think that the focus of humans thousands of years ago would be centered much more on survival than holding conversations with each other. Which is not to say that the didn't have these abilities, it just wasn't on the top of the priority list.
 

tashi

Active Member
Local time
Yesterday 10:43 PM
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
180
---
Location
Floating.
Yes, I heard something on the radio the other day that the crying of newborn infants imitates the speaking patterns of the language of their parents. To imagine that we begin the process of learning language inside the womb, that would be a pretty fantastic idea...Which is not to say that it's neccesarily true, but either way, it's pretty fascinating.
 
Top Bottom