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The idea of religion

Jaffa

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#1
I'm actually quite surprised that this sub-forum doesn't have a Formal Debate thread already.

I want to discuss religion and how, in 2012, it is still acceptable to believe in a magical man in the clouds who watches you while you sleep, can convict you of thought crime and who once became so upset with the violence being committed by mankind that he decided to flood the Earth in a violent and horrible manner.

Is it just me that refuses to listen to this rubbish? For quite a few years now I have listened to debates from the great Atheists like Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins etc and I am yet to hear a valid argument to believe that the idea of god/religion can be true. A part of me, somewhere deep in my brain, tells me that I am just wasting my time on this. The whole idea of heaven & hell, a divine creator, the creators son whom roamed the Earth, the Garden of Eden and other stories which, if written in 2012 would get you put into a Mental Institute. But, for a reason unknown to me, I just find myself constantly coming back to the discussion/debate of religion. It frustrates me that people will not listen to logic or reason and are simply using Blind Faith to go about their lives.

To think that the Human Race is anything more than evolved primates is completely selfish. To think that we are part of a 'divine plan' is just embracing self-centredness. It is a pathetic way for Human Beings to deal with their complex emotions when dealing with death. What is more beautiful than believing that when you die you become what you were before you were born; nothing. We are made of the stars, we are simply moving, breathing, conscious atoms put together so intracately that is almost moves me to tears. When we die we simply become the Earth and will eventually will be consumed by the stars again.

THIS is beautiful. Being granted entrance to a magical heavenly place isn't.
 

Cognisant

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#2
Before we begin, is it "Jaffa" like the orange candy coated chocolate balls or pronounced "Ja-Fa" like the boom-stick wielding warrior guys from Stargate?

I really want to read it as Ja-Fa :D

Totally agree btw.
 

Jaffa

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#3
Before we begin, is it "Jaffa" like the orange candy coated chocolate balls or pronounced "Ja-Fa" like the boom-stick wielding warrior guys from Stargate?

I really want to read it as Ja-Fa :D

Totally agree btw.
Jaffa as in 'Seedless'. But, for you, it can be Ja-Fa.

I hope this makes your day ;)
 
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#4
Ho hum, humans will believe whatever the fuck they want to believe and then find excuses to justify their beliefs in their own eyes.

If you really need a reason to believe in an interesting afterlife after this boring existence as 'intelligent stardust', I have written a few thousand comments on the topic. Feel free to PM me with questions, if you have any after reading those comments...

Or even before you start, if you really want to find a way to escape to that next level...
 

EyeSeeCold

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#5
A part of me, somewhere deep in my brain, tells me that I am just wasting my time on this.
You would be wasting your time, as from your OP you are exceptionally biased(your needless devalue-idealize discrediting rhetoric is too tangential to even dissect).

You are fixated on the Abrahamic religious beliefs, which means you aren't interested in religion, you're interested in battling illogical and demented Christians(, Jews and Muslims) who believe in rubbish.
 

Jaffa

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#6
You would be wasting your time, as from your OP you are exceptionally biased(your needless devalue-idealize discrediting rhetoric is too tangential to even dissect).
Biased towards logical thinking. Biased towards not believing in a magical man whom lives in the skies?

I want to hear your beliefs. What do YOU believe in?

You are fixated on the Abrahamic religious beliefs, which means you aren't interested in religion, you're interested in battling illogical and demented Christians(, Jews and Muslims) who believe in rubbish.
You may have hit the nail on the head. Here in the UK especially, there's alot of people out there with no real religious belief. It seems to be the elderly that attend church, the normal working class people don't seem to have real religious views.

But that doesn't seem to stop them getting their children Christened. Nor does it stop them wanting to be married in a church. Why? I ask them at every opportunity I am given. I'm yet to be given a real answer, never mind a compelling one. The last friend I asked took the question quite personal, well, his fiancé did. She claimed that not being a part of a religion meant that you will struggle to get married and that when you die nobody will bury you or give you a funeral service. Her ill-informed opinion was corrected yet she refused to listen to me. Another typical, close minded religious nut case.

I just find it hard to take in when somebody can't make the Intuitive leap from some ancient books to modern day science and answers.
 

Agent Intellect

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#7
I want to discuss religion and how, in 2012, it is still acceptable to believe in a magical man in the clouds who watches you while you sleep, can convict you of thought crime and who once became so upset with the violence being committed by mankind that he decided to flood the Earth in a violent and horrible manner.
So you want to debate:

1. Against a strawman that you've already created?

Or

2. Do you want to debate whether or not the Abrahamic God exists?

Or

3. Do you want to debate whether or not a god/creator/higher power does/can exist?

Or

4. Do you want to debate why it's acceptable to believe in a god and/or the Abrahamic God? (Acceptable to whom?)

I will accept your challenge on 3 or 4 but not 1 or 2.
 

Jaffa

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#8
So you want to debate:

1. Against a strawman that you've already created?

Or

2. Do you want to debate whether or not the Abrahamic God exists?

Or

3. Do you want to debate whether or not a god/creator/higher power does/can exist?

Or

4. Do you want to debate why it's acceptable to believe in a god and/or the Abrahamic God? (Acceptable to whom?)

I will accept your challenge on 3 or 4 but not 1 or 2.
Point 3 and 4 are fine. I want to hear what YOUR beliefs are but also want to talk about religions like Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc and why these still exist (aside from the obvious answer that there's too many idiots in the world).
 

Agent Intellect

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#9
Point 3 and 4 are fine. I want to hear what YOUR beliefs are but also want to talk about religions like Christianity, Islam, Judaism etc and why these still exist (aside from the obvious answer that there's too many idiots in the world).
My beliefs? I'm an atheist. But that doesn't mean I can't argue for a different view for fun.
 

Jaffa

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#10
Deuteronomy 13:7-11 tells you that should a member of your family reject "Yahweh, your god" then you "Must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death". I do not see death on the streets of Britain for families killing each other. Why do religious nuts not follow their 'sacred texts' to the letter? What gives them the right to pick and choose parts of their holy books?

I do not read an instruction manual for my television and then only choose to follow the bits that I like. I do not read exam literature to then select parts that I like and simply dismiss the bits that I dislike.

As technology moves forward, as the human race progresses, more and more of the sacred texts become obsolete. Once we no longer theorise on the beginning of the universe and we have compelling evidence to prove, let's say, the big bang theory, will these religious fruitcakes still worship their 'divine creators' or will more of their sacred texts simply be disregarded?

Pope John Paul II apologised to the Jews for the centuries of Christian Anti-Semitism. He apologised to the Muslims for the crusades and he apologised to the Eastern Orthodox Christians who had been on the receiving end of many persecutions that the Vatican had cast upon them. All this bloodshed and hate was cast in the name of religion, but now it seems that the Pope had seen the error in their ways. Why? If it was all a part of Gods divine plan then why should he apologise for this?

People are stupid. It is the only explanation. Children are indoctrinated in their youth and are brought up not to question anything which may not make sense. Any reason is quashed during their early years, they are taught that Blind Faith is acceptable. It angers me to see that this still happens in 2012. As Sam Harris (Someone I hold in high esteem) once wrote, “Tell a devout Christian that frozen Yogurt can turn you invisible and he is likely to require as much evidence as anybody else. But tell him that the book which he keeps at the side of his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with eternal fire should he fail to accept it’s every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence at all”. Never a truer word spoken.

Even as a write this, my spell check is automatically capitalising the ‘G’ in the word ‘god’. I purposely go back through my post to remove it. God is so instilled upon our culture and lives that I wonder if there will ever be an end to the madness that is amongst us.

This morning I attended a funeral of my Fiancé’s uncle. The funeral was held in the local church, we sat amongst mainly elderly people and the service consisted of several prayers to god, several hymn’s and numerous readings by the Vicar from the bible. When the old man next to me noticed that I was not signing, nor was I joining them to say “Lord, hear our prayer”, he turned to me and asked why I was not signing. I found that ignoring him was the only option available to me that wouldn’t cause a row at the funeral. His unrest at my blatant lack of respect for his ‘faith’ humoured me. He seemed very uncomfortable at being sat next to a ‘non believer’. This only strengthened my position on people being absolutely stupid.
 

Jaffa

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#14
I meant, who was arguing for religion in those debates?
Skip, I know what you were asking. There wasn't any names which I remembered as the guys usually frustrated me.

They were all white American pastors / religious nuts, if that helps at all.
 

Artsu Tharaz

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#15
I want to discuss religion and how, in 2012, it is still acceptable to believe in a magical man in the clouds who watches you while you sleep, can convict you of thought crime and who once became so upset with the violence being committed by mankind that he decided to flood the Earth in a violent and horrible manner.
That douche sounds like a total narcissist.

Or that narcissist sounds like a total douche.

Whichever.

God > JC > Demiurge
 

skip

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#16
Skip, I know what you were asking. There wasn't any names which I remembered as the guys usually frustrated me. They were all white American pastors / religious nuts, if that helps at all.
Hm... if I were searching for "a valid argument to believe that the idea of god/religion can be true," atheists and nuts wouldn't be my only resources.
 
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#17
Buddhism is a religion because it is a way of life, rather than because you believe in this God or that.

As it happens, I do not believe in any God or supernatural phenomena, but am beginning to be rather impressed by the Buddhist 'way of life'.

Apparently, that means I am becoming religious, although the very word scares me as someone who has been staunchly athiest since, like, childhood.
 

Goddess

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#18
Agree with you Skip..

When you're trying to find something about god or religion, you need more resources.
If you stick with the atheist resources, then you will always want to debate the theist.
And try to find out not just in Abrahamic Religion, but try Buddhis or Hindus.

The thing is, you keep thinking that those theist are stupid because believing something which can't be proved (of it's existence).
That is your very strong assumption. Means that you believe it that way.
Like Da Blob said, humans will believe whatever they want to believe and then find excuses to justify their beliefs in their own eyes.
And so are you.

If you just pull out your assumption and widening your range of thought, you will have a different perspective for that.
You won't said again that all theists are stupid (although mostly they are).
But hey...you're an INTP, you're supposed to think that there are ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTP, ...etc.
You won't be called as a smart person if there's no stupids around.
Every single part/thing in this universe is complete the whole existence.

Dude, find more resources, then you will find more. :elephant:

Inner_mind is now closer to the Buddhism and I believe it won't make her/him become a stupid person. ;)
 

SpaceYeti

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#19
Deuteronomy 13:7-11 tells you that should a member of your family reject "Yahweh, your god" then you "Must kill him, your hand must strike the first blow in putting him to death". I do not see death on the streets of Britain for families killing each other. Why do religious nuts not follow their 'sacred texts' to the letter? What gives them the right to pick and choose parts of their holy books?

I do not read an instruction manual for my television and then only choose to follow the bits that I like. I do not read exam literature to then select parts that I like and simply dismiss the bits that I dislike.


Actually, I skim over my electronics instructions if I don't ignore them entirely. Usually, what you need to do is so obvious or intuitive that you don't need instructions, and what you may need instructions for are used so rarely that it's worth playing around in the menus for the extra five minutes to have have the weight and volume of the instructions for all of them somewhere... and then there's the chance you lose them anyhow. I have paperwork around that's actually important, I'm not wasting space on TV, speaker, printer, or etc instructions.

As technology moves forward, as the human race progresses, more and more of the sacred texts become obsolete. Once we no longer theorise on the beginning of the universe and we have compelling evidence to prove, let's say, the big bang theory, will these religious fruitcakes still worship their 'divine creators' or will more of their sacred texts simply be disregarded?
Mostly, I have a few small complaints about your verbiage here. All explanatory power we get from science comes in the form of a theory. A theory is the pinnacle of scientific knowledge, for it explains a set of phenomena. There will never be a time when there are no theories, though it's possible we will have a good theory for everything at some point in the future.

Further, there already is compelling evidence for the Big Bang. The only reason anybody ever contradicts the theory is due to misunderstanding/ignorance or religious dogma, usually both. If you ignore the contradictions posed on religious grounds and by people who don't even know what the Big Bang theory is, states, or means, then nobody ever actually argues against it. There may be scientists arguing over specifics, but that it actually happened goes without any serious questions.

Pope John Paul II apologised to the Jews for the centuries of Christian Anti-Semitism. He apologised to the Muslims for the crusades and he apologised to the Eastern Orthodox Christians who had been on the receiving end of many persecutions that the Vatican had cast upon them. All this bloodshed and hate was cast in the name of religion, but now it seems that the Pope had seen the error in their ways. Why? If it was all a part of Gods divine plan then why should he apologise for this?
Because it wasn't part of any deity's plan, because if there is any such thing it's a neutral observer at best.

People are stupid.
No. I find far too frequently that when someone disagrees with someone else, they jump to the conclusion that they're stupid. It is true that religious practice has a positive correlation with low IQs and a lack of education, but someone having religion is no reason to presume they're stupid. Indeed, some of the worst religious people I've ever encountered were the smart ones, who had been living in mysticism and style over substance for a large chunk of their lives. They're very good at making religion seem nice, or at least benevolent, even though they have no leg to stand on when it comes to defending their beliefs from scrutiny. Take Blob, for example. Blob seems very smart, yet his inability to apply logic without bias, perhaps even a full-on ignorance of logic, is behind his religious mysticism.

My point is, basically, it's not about a person's intellect, it's not how smart they are, it's how skillful they are at unbiasedly applying reasoning. This is a learned skill, not inherent to a person's base intellect.


Even as a write this, my spell check is automatically capitalising the ‘G’ in the word ‘god’. I purposely go back through my post to remove it. God is so instilled upon our culture and lives that I wonder if there will ever be an end to the madness that is amongst us.
That is peculiar. Both "God" and "god" are words, depending upon the specific subject, and so both should pass a spell-checker scan.

This morning I attended a funeral of my Fiancé’s uncle. The funeral was held in the local church, we sat amongst mainly elderly people and the service consisted of several prayers to god, several hymn’s and numerous readings by the Vicar from the bible. When the old man next to me noticed that I was not signing, nor was I joining them to say “Lord, hear our prayer”, he turned to me and asked why I was not signing. I found that ignoring him was the only option available to me that wouldn’t cause a row at the funeral. His unrest at my blatant lack of respect for his ‘faith’ humoured me. He seemed very uncomfortable at being sat next to a ‘non believer’. This only strengthened my position on people being absolutely stupid.
I am unabashed and open about my lack of religion. I will share my thoughts on the subject with anyone, at any appropriate time. Granted, I never had a very religious backdrop pressuring me to join them. My parents were religious, sure, but once we put up a fuss about church being boring and not being forced to go, we stopped going, and our parent's beliefs remained their own.

At any rate, the point my rambling was meandering to; I find that being comfortable and confident in your beliefs or lack thereof, on this topic or any other, leads people to listen to you with respect even when they disagree. For example, if that man asked me the same question in the same context, I would have replied something like "I wasn't very close to this guy, but some of my family was, and I'm here to support them. However, I'm not going to pretend I believe in a god. I respect people too much to lie to them about that."
 

Jaffa

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#20
When you're trying to find something about god or religion, you need more resources.
If you stick with the atheist resources, then you will always want to debate the theist.
And try to find out not just in Abrahamic Religion, but try Buddhis or Hindus.
I don't need any resources.

The responsibility of proving gods existence lies with the Theist. That fact should never be debated, I could claim that the Big Friendly Giant existed because I read the Rohl Dahl book when I was a kid. It would be up to me to prove that to a reasonable person. It would not be the responsibility of the unbeliever to try and disprove it because the concept is just completely ridiculous. I would probably describe myself as being more of an Apatheist than an Atheist. I simply do not care; if there did happen to be a god then he has definitely had no part in my life thus far and I don’t think it would change anything.

The thing is, you keep thinking that those theist are stupid because believing something which can't be proved (of it's existence).
That is your very strong assumption. Means that you believe it that way.
People aren’t stupid for believing things that can’t be proved. People are stupid for believing completely unreasonable things that can’t be proved. Gravity is still a theory, there is no un-deniable truth that you can simply show to me in a book to suggest that Gravity pulls us towards the Earth. But it is viable and is the basis for many more theories that are also viable.

A magical man living in the clouds is an unreasonable belief.

Like Da Blob said, humans will believe whatever they want to believe and then find excuses to justify their beliefs in their own eyes.
And so are you.
A rational human being will base their beliefs on EVIDENCE and critical thinking. An unrational person will not. I do not need to think of excuses to justify my beliefs. The evidence justifies my belief.

If you just pull out your assumption and widening your range of thought, you will have a different perspective for that.
You won't said again that all theists are stupid (although mostly they are).
But hey...you're an INTP, you're supposed to think that there are ESTJ, ENTJ, ISTP, ...etc.
You won't be called as a smart person if there's no stupids around.
Every single part/thing in this universe is complete the whole existence.

Dude, find more resources, then you will find more.

Inner_mind is now closer to the Buddhism and I believe it won't make her/him become a stupid person.
So I should widen my range of thought to…. What exactly? I have read a lot of the bible, both new testament and old. It was quite obviously a book that was written by bronze age, spear throwing people who simply did not understand how the Earth worked.

I am not sure what else I am supposed to ‘widen my thought range’ to other than actually going to church and joining a congregation? Afterall, the bible IS the holy book of the immediate religions to me.

I am still not convinced that there’s a clever Theist out there. I thought briefly that Douglas Wilson was perhaps one of these clever Theists, but shortly after lost all respect for him when he claimed that everything written in the bible was true and that the Earth couldn’t possibly be older than 10,000 years old.
 
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#21
Ho Hum! (Bah Humbug requires too much energy)

logic and rationality make for very poor gods. I have pity on those who believe that their man-made models are adequate to encompass the universe of human experience. How can the illogical and irrational be possibly explained as fitting within the models of logic and rationality?

Those models' only validity is limited to the actions of brainless objects and any attempt to explain complex human behavior, as being merely logical or rational, is a gross error. If the atheists come up with a system of thought that encompasses a universe that contains causalities for irrationality, illogic, intent, belief, consciousness and the rest of the subjective human experiences, then perhaps a view of atheism as adolescent thinking and childish denial can be discarded.

If one is truly sincere about exploring the idea of religion, then examining the relationships between the concepts of religion, philosophy, spirituality can be edifying.

I belong to no religion, came to my spirituality via an intense intellectual study of the phenomena of human consciousness and espouse no philosophy but my own.
 

Cognisant

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#22
So your irrationality is the basis of your opposition to rationality.

Well that is absolutely irrefutable, although surely you can see how this comes off as a crazy guy insisting that it's really everyone else that's insane.

Anyway beyond the mysteries of human consciousness you don't have any defensible ground to stand on, and what little you have left is being eroded away by neurobiologists, modern psychiatrists, and artificial intelligence researchers, who are all racing to claim what's left for their respective fields.

Then again if you're right this must be a very exciting time as it will soon become objectively apparent that rational inquiry simply isn't enough to solve the mystery, but even you don't think that, your attitude tells as much, you don't think you're going to be proven right, you're just holding down the fort until the bitter end, perhaps hoping that some by some miracle your inexorable opposition goes away before they finish you off.
 

ObliviousGenius

Life is a side scroller, keep moving.
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#24
If the atheists come up with a system of thought that encompasses a universe that contains causalities for irrationality, illogic, intent, belief, consciousness and the rest of the subjective human experiences, then perhaps a view of atheism as adolescent thinking and childish denial can be discarded.
I would think that causality of irrationality would be obvious to those who are rational. It isn't so much that those people in this case theists are just so irrational. It is all the "invisible mental barriers" that prevent those people from obtaining all the information they need to make an informed conclusion. More of those barriers obstruct a rational conclusion even after enough information is perceived!

I notice barriers of ignorance to factual information, personal bias to their own POV, a preference for blissful ignorance (meaning they don't want to know), close-mindedness, respect for majority opinion, denial, and most likely others that I can't think of off the top of my head.

As I child I had some of these barriers and as a result followed blindly what I was taught. As I grow older my perspective changes as I understand more and those barriers are now non-existent. Atheism is not immature thinking as a result of adolescence, but intellectual growth and understanding. That does not mean that once you become an atheist you have understood all (in Jaffa's case), but are now in a better position to make a decision on something so serious as religion.
 
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#25
religious Naturalist/animist here. No need for man in sky. I have god in mountain lol. or river. Or city. You wont find many here defending abraham, I have a feeling.
 
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#26
Once mankind gained the intelligence to contemplate the environment, we wondered, and wanted explanations. Now, we know the earth revolves around the sun, exposing its sunlight, providing energy to the inhabitants of the planet. Then, the Sun God only gave us harvest when we sacrificed enough pigs on Sunday.

We cannot disprove God, however we can disprove the need for god. Personally I grew up a Christian and I keep those values with me for sentimental and spiritual reasons.
 
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#27
You would be wasting your time, as from your OP you are exceptionally biased(your needless devalue-idealize discrediting rhetoric is too tangential to even dissect).

You are fixated on the Abrahamic religious beliefs, which means you aren't interested in religion, you're interested in battling illogical and demented Christians(, Jews and Muslims) who believe in rubbish.
religion is always: "there is stuff that cannot be known and we know that stuff"

sometimes with the more recent, apologetic addition of "and if you don't believe that then you don't believe there's stuff that cannot be known which makes you hubristic"

both completely and irrefutably false, internally and externally.

[insert guns and curses]

EDIT: oh necro thread fu*k
 

scorpiomover

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#28
I'm actually quite surprised that this sub-forum doesn't have a Formal Debate thread already.

I want to discuss religion and how, in 2012, it is still acceptable to believe in a magical man in the clouds who watches you while you sleep,
Your government does that. CCTV.

can convict you of thought crime
If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it." (Genesis 4:7)

The G-d of the Bible does NOT judge you for thinking about sin, only about acting on that thought to DO sin.

Question: What happens to a man in secular modern Western society, who expresses that he sometimes has thoughts of having sex with children? People would attack him, even though he has never expressed that he has done the act, and only thought it. This is though crime, and it is considered a crime by our modern secular society, by our culture.
 
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#29
Your government does that. CCTV.

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it." (Genesis 4:7)

The G-d of the Bible does NOT judge you for thinking about sin, only about acting on that thought to DO sin.

Question: What happens to a man in secular modern Western society, who expresses that he sometimes has thoughts of having sex with children? People would attack him, even though he has never expressed that he has done the act, and only thought it. This is though crime, and it is considered a crime by our modern secular society, by our culture.
Hebrews 4:12 Says that you are, in fact judged by your thoughts. I'm not going anywhere with that, just thought I would point it out.

Anyway, I thought I would share a video relating to the subject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qahB7mYhLxs

be warned that most of the other video's on this channel are for comedy purposes, and to a certain extent this one is too, so don't take them too seriously.
 
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#31
[...] I want to discuss religion and how, in 2012, it is still acceptable to believe in a magical man in the clouds who watches you while you sleep, can convict you of thought crime and who once became so upset with the violence being committed by mankind that he decided to flood the Earth in a violent and horrible manner.

Is it just me that refuses to listen to this rubbish? [...] I just find myself constantly coming back to the discussion/debate of religion. It frustrates me that people will not listen to logic or reason and are simply using Blind Faith to go about their lives.
Jaffa,

Very interesting thoughts here. I used to think like you, too. The problem was that I was unhappy because there wasn't a real purpose in life. You live, you die, and then that's it. Made me frustrated so the topic of religion never let me go. The one thing that kept me coming back to the Abrahamic religions was the statistics. If people around the world become more educated about science how is it that more and more people become religious? Statistically, and logically this doesn't make any sense It frustrates me that people will not listen to logic or reason. So I started exploring all the religions. Christianity never made sense to me, no matter how hard I tried (but that's just me). Judaism didn't do it either, but that third religion, yup, it completely made sense, despite what the media tells us about it. Scientifically, everything's still valid and as I'm seeing scientific articles coming out about "new" discoveries, a lot of that was already discovered 1400 years ago. Just my 2 cents to give you a new perspective.
 

TAC

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#32
Why is it that whenever religions and their validity is being discussed; science is the grand hero of the argument? It's curious really.

I will only argue against monotheistic religions (Because if there is a god, there are many of them. and they are most likely unaware of our existence)

All monotheistic religions draw upon simple emotional triggers to regulate their subjects.
There are rule sets with definitive boundaries which have built in rewards and punishments. (Fear and Joy)
A set of rules enforced by emotional manipulation is a uniquely human identifier that exposes the real fraud of religion as a whole. What use would an omnipotent being have for controlling emotions or even possessing emotional intelligence itself. None. Emotions are heavily linked to mortality. If a child sees an interesting toy while out what happens "mommy daddy, I want, *reaches hand out and simultaneous temper tantrum". What does this teach us about emotions? Two things:
1) Emotions are a practical manipulation tool. Baby doesn't get toy, screams cries as if it was an attack against their survival. Coincidentally. that miserable sound can get the baby what it wants or improves its chances
2) Emotions are temporary. You know what else is temporary for a human and most other living entities; life. If a human is a car. Emotions are the panic button. They make shit urgent. Why? Because you can die at a moments notice.

This tie to emotions is the indicator that religion is a human product for humans by humans. And frankly. its a shit product.

Don't dirty science with all that religion nonsense. The scientists have enough battles to fight. mostly among themselves. Let basic logic and philosophy take the wheel for the great debate.
 
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