The future, Change, and Stepping into Oneself...

[narthex]

This evening I took a Myers-Brigg test. It isn't the first time I've done it but it's the first time I've shown much interest in the type that came up: INTP. I've spent the last few hours researching it. A fervent and unexpected effort at self-understanding.

There's a couple themes I wanted to explore if anyone is game. (By the way I'm 25, male, and live in California). One is my obsession with my own future. This is obviously compounded by the fact that I'm a college graduate with many interests but no real passion that has grabbed me and made it clear what I'll do for a living, but I also don't want to accept a life of menial manual or service labor. (Years ago I decided, perhaps stupidly from a financial point of view, against studying or making a living with computers, a decision I stick with). I'm wondering if other INTPs of all ages spend a lot of time thinking about their future. Especially with the sort of "all or nothing" approach that I think I've been taking: feeling that any career choice must be final and coherent or it will be totally eroded by doubt. I'm scared by the statement that "[FONT=Tahoma,Helvetica]the interests of an INTP would be enough to occupy him for several lifetimes if that were possible." Given my history of picking up and leaving aside different interests, the worry would be that I could -never- find my Project, my passion.

Another theme that I'm somewhat obsessed with is that of changing myself. In social situations I am quiet, reserved, weird, etc., and I just can't -accept- this. I want to change, I want to be more extraverted, to fit in better in a group, even to be able to be a leader. Does this resonate with anyone else? I've taken various approaches towards changing myself. The momentary effects of substances like alcohol and xanax are very significant parts of my social life. I've also tried neurofeedback, hypnosis, reading books by Anthony Robbins, and other things.

One of those other things is meditation. I started meditating pretty recently and it opened up the whole idea of another "change," that of simply accepting myself, stepping into myself as I am, while also reconciling myself with the world. This far easier said than done, so I'm wondering if others out there have embarked along this path.

I know that was a lot, but it's what's been on my mind for a while, and I'd love to hear if other INTPs have been thinking or feeling similar things.

best,
e
[/FONT]

 

[DivideByZer0]

Interesting, that is exactly what I'm struggling with right now: developing the social/leadership side of myself while trying to envision a future in which I'm happy with myself and my life. I'm a 3rd year college student majoring in Brain and Cognitive Sciences, and as interesting as it can sometimes be, none of the potential careers in the field seem worthwhile. Actually right now I'm working at a video game lab as a game designer; I'm kind of 'passionate' about it because ive always played games, and it's something I'm creatively skilled at: because I've always played video games by understanding and exploiting the systems behind them, I have a good understanding of how the parts video games fit together a whole. It would be cool to pursue a career in it, but I'm not banking on that fact. Anyway, brain and cognitive sciences for me is more of a practical way to study philosophy, understanding the mind and how it works and how it creates and influences our realities...but that interest can't really be practically applied or experienced in the process of scientific research.

I've noticed that I'm really detached from social situations and detached from people when I'm hanging out with them; closer and more intimate conversation is what I find more worthwhile, but that really depends on a deep mutual understanding between me and the other person. So I've been hanging out with people and being aware of other peoples engagement and what they're experiencing at the moment and that makes it much easier for me to relax and participate in the converstaion without throwing a wrench in its gears. Anyhow, self-improvement is what I'd say keeps me going, it's what gives me hope that I'll be able to make a worthwhile future for myself, that I'll be able to develop an intuitive approach to life that will be meaningful and fulfilling in and of itself.

 

[loveofreason]

I would say that the future and self-creation obsess me, yes.

Neither of you are alone in pursuit of that journey. In fact there seems to be no end point of satisfaction with one's character - always a work in progress and a future to be re-imagined.

 

[loveofreason]

Oh, and welcome to you both

 

[narthex]

Design is a word that has begun to resonate with me deeply. To be a designer, to design systems. It seems like this is very characteristic of the INTP personality type which is very interesting.

The field of design that has recently captured my obsessive interest is ecological design or Permaculture. Anyone here know of it? It fits with my ethics and general feeling that the world must be changed fundamentally.

At this point though I have a fear that if I commit myself to a field, I won't be able to commit to it fully because I'll immediately start to doubt that it is what I want to do. Thus a lot of time, money, and psychological effort wasted.

best,
e

 

[username]

At this point though I have a fear that if I commit myself to a field, I won't be able to commit to it fully because I'll immediately start to doubt that it is what I want to do. Thus a lot of time, money, and psychological effort wasted.

At least better then the person who does not immediately doubt.

 

[Vrecknidj]

I've spent the last few hours researching it. A fervent and unexpected effort at self-understanding.

I took the test back in 1989. So, I've spent the last two decades researching it. The effort at self-understanding, should, I think, continue (if my own experience is even remotely accurate as a guide).

...One is my obsession with my own future. This is obviously compounded by the fact that I'm a college graduate with many interests but no real passion that has grabbed me and made it clear what I'll do for a living, but I also don't want to accept a life of menial manual or service labor.

This can be daunting. I've had many jobs, from phlebotomist to fork-lift driver to university lecturer. In every case, of course, I had to do things my own way. Perhaps your focus will be on what you do--but I suspect it may be more fulfilling to focus on how you do what you do. (Then again, who knows?)

(Years ago I decided, perhaps stupidly from a financial point of view, against studying or making a living with computers, a decision I stick with). I'm wondering if other INTPs of all ages spend a lot of time thinking about their future. Especially with the sort of "all or nothing" approach that I think I've been taking: feeling that any career choice must be final and coherent or it will be totally eroded by doubt.

Most of the INTPs I've met do indeed spend a lot of time thinking of their future (and of the future generally). You probably won't remain stuck there though. As I've aged, the immediacy (pardon the pun) of dealing with the future has given way to the stark reality of paying the mortgage and finding ways to make enough money to eat. There's nothing quite like physical urgency to shake things up.

I'm scared by the statement that "[FONT=Tahoma,Helvetica]the interests of an INTP would be enough to occupy him for several lifetimes if that were possible." Given my history of picking up and leaving aside different interests, the worry would be that I could -never- find my Project, my passion.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma,Helvetica]I think every INTP I know feels this.

Another theme that I'm somewhat obsessed with is that of changing myself. In social situations I am quiet, reserved, weird, etc., and I just can't -accept- this. I want to change, I want to be more extraverted, to fit in better in a group, even to be able to be a leader. Does this resonate with anyone else? I've taken various approaches towards changing myself. The momentary effects of substances like alcohol and xanax are very significant parts of my social life. I've also tried neurofeedback, hypnosis, reading books by Anthony Robbins, and other things.

As Aristotle pointed out, if you want to improve you have to practice. It has taken me several years, but I can rather facilely negotiate the spaces of extroverts now. I have no problems engaging strangers at a party or even at the grocery store of an unfamiliar town. It's taken a lot of practice and determination, but the payoff has been tremendous. In a way, developing a handy persona for dealing with the rest of the world offers me greater protection for my introverted self. I have a handful of very close friends, of course, and over the decades this group has expanded somewhat. However, there are advantages in having associates (which the extroverts pile up by the hundreds while we have to struggle to accumulate a dozen) who are not really friends. While I may prefer to reserve my time for those private few for whom I have deep, deep attachments, the daily reality of my life has been well served by developing a few more shallow "friendships," and what it took was practice.

One of those other things is meditation. I started meditating pretty recently and it opened up the whole idea of another "change," that of simply accepting myself, stepping into myself as I am, while also reconciling myself with the world. This far easier said than done, so I'm wondering if others out there have embarked along this path.

I have pursued it occasionally (and will probably get back to it someday). For me, the payoff wasn't immediate enough. In that regard, the impatience of the INTP prevented me from doing the practice that I mentioned previously.

I know that was a lot, but it's what's been on my mind for a while, and I'd love to hear if other INTPs have been thinking or feeling similar things.

Happy to reply and to share.

Dave[/FONT]

 

[narthex]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Dave. Quite helpful.

I'm curious -- how is it that you were a forklift driver or a lecturer or a phlebotomist in your own way? What did that look like?

I suppose that practicing would also apply to expressing one's feelings to one's romantic partners. This is something I've had trouble with -- once again -- recently. A relationship ending more or less because of a lack of communication. My girlfriend who needed to know how I felt about her, why i liked her, and I couldn't/didn't express this well or enough. I'm betting that this is common for INTPs and that it can be worked on, but it is not easy.

 

[Vrecknidj]

Thank you for the thoughtful reply, Dave. Quite helpful.

Happy to.

I'm curious -- how is it that you were a forklift driver or a lecturer or a phlebotomist in your own way? What did that look like?

Well, it's more that I approached my job without falling into the same constraints as other people who had the same position. While a forklift driver, I had the same basic responsibilities as the other drivers, but, as I worked in a warehouse, I couldn't help but notice that there were more efficient ways to store or sort things than the way we were instructed to do them. So, I'd keep track of our work and at the same time keep a mental record of how things would go had I been doing them an alternative way. I approached the warehouse supervisor (and even the plant manager) on more than one occasion and, once in a while, my alternatives would be adopted. This allowed me to stay fresh and involved rather than succumb to the deadening drone that can befall anyone working in a modern factory or warehouse.

I suppose that practicing would also apply to expressing one's feelings to one's romantic partners. This is something I've had trouble with -- once again -- recently. A relationship ending more or less because of a lack of communication. My girlfriend who needed to know how I felt about her, why i liked her, and I couldn't/didn't express this well or enough. I'm betting that this is common for INTPs and that it can be worked on, but it is not easy.

For me, it has been absolutely more revealing to understand other people's types than it has been for me to read more about my own (or even to persuade them to understand the INTP type). My wife is an XNFP (more I these days than E, but she has traits of both). And what she needs to hear is very, very different from what I need to say. So, I've learned to say what she needs to hear, even if it means stepping outside the bounds of how I'd normally behave. For example, INTPs have a tendency not to repeat themselves. Once stated, something said is recognized as holding to be the case until an alternative is presented. However, this doesn't fly for the other types. Saying "I love you" once may, for the INTP, be ironclad for eternity, but, my wife may need to hear it ten times a day. So, I say it ten times a day.



Dave

 

[narthex]

Interesting, Dave. Not succumbing to the deadening drone that is most modern labor is definitely good. I'm getting extremely tired of my current job, but certainly making it as efficient and quick as possible is one of the few things that can sometimes make it fun.

In talking with some ex-girlfriends recently it has become obvious to me that I need to figure out my romantic partners' needs are in a relationship and how to satisfy those needs. Like, as you say, expressing that I like her and why and how, on a frequent basis, which is extremely hard for me to do even when I know it is needed.

Maybe I should suggest my dates take an MB test and read up all about their type so I can be a better partner to them? But a lot of people would probably find that a little weird...haha.

 

[Socrates]

Well Narthex, like you I just took the Myers Brigg test for the first time tonight. I was amazed out how in-tun the results were to my own personal thoughts and feelings. I also feel very similar about things.

I have been working in the computer field for quite a while and had been planning on making a career out of it eventually. It just seemed the practical decision to make as I had been unable to find a true passion in my life. Recently though I've decided that just because I'm able to do something does mean it is what I should do. To me paying the bills isn't quite as important as how they are being paid. Whats the point if I'm not enjoying myself along the way? I feel like I'm constantly thinking about the future and what I need to do to make it out the other side the way I want. Part of me wants to just be content with the way things are and take the safe road, but I just can't accept that. I can't be happy until I find something that I truely enjoy

Also the communication issues I can understand completely. I used to have a terrible time talking in groups or being the center of attention. I've always had my close friends and little contact with everyone else. I still prefer an "intimate" relationship so to speak than any number of shallow friends, and the communication that goes with it, but I have learned to open myself up to a certain extent and be more outgoing with people I don't know as well. Though I do still have trouble talking to people I have just met at times with anything more personal than the recent weather.

 

[Ermine]

I'm wondering if other INTPs of all ages spend a lot of time thinking about their future. Especially with the sort of "all or nothing" approach that I think I've been taking: feeling that any career choice must be final and coherent or it will be totally eroded by doubt. I'm scared by the statement that "[FONT=Tahoma,Helvetica]the interests of an INTP would be enough to occupy him for several lifetimes if that were possible." Given my history of picking up and leaving aside different interests, the worry would be that I could -never- find my Project, my passion.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma,Helvetica]Another theme that I'm somewhat obsessed with is that of changing myself. In social situations I am quiet, reserved, weird, etc., and I just can't -accept- this. I want to change, I want to be more extraverted, to fit in better in a group, even to be able to be a leader. Does this resonate with anyone else? I've taken various approaches towards changing myself. The momentary effects of substances like alcohol and xanax are very significant parts of my social life. I've also tried neurofeedback, hypnosis, reading books by Anthony Robbins, and other things. [/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma,Helvetica]One of those other things is meditation. I started meditating pretty recently and it opened up the whole idea of another "change," that of simply accepting myself, stepping into myself as I am, while also reconciling myself with the world. This far easier said than done, so I'm wondering if others out there have embarked along this path.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma,Helvetica]I know that was a lot, but it's what's been on my mind for a while, and I'd love to hear if other INTPs have been thinking or feeling similar things.[/FONT]

[FONT=Tahoma,Helvetica]best,[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma,Helvetica]e[/FONT]

Lately I've been wondering about the same thing. As for the wanting to be more extraverted and outgoing, that is something I've wanted my entire life. I've wanted to lead, I've wanted to have more friends, until I discovered the life of your average extravert is in my opinion: chaos, facades, too many people, and exhaustion.

I've found that the best way to change myself, at least temporarily, is friends. When I am around extraverted friend having a fun time, I come out of my shell. When with introverted people, I am my more quiet, weird, pensive side. There's also religion to consider. My particular religion has helped me rise to a higher level, establishing my eternal goals in life, while being myself. It helps me reach my true potential.

However, don't try to change yourself. It will only leave yourself distraught and confused. You are who you are. I think another key to accepting yourself is finding a dream job that encompasses your many interests. Chances are, it won't only satisfy you, but will also be a groundbreaking step forward in your chosen field, as you can see by the lives of other INTPs in history, like Einstein, Descartes, Abraham Lincoln, Charles Darwin, etc. They were thought to be somewhat bizarre, reserved, odd, but look what they did for the world. Just work hard and stick with it.

I just hope I can follow my own advice.

 

[loveofreason]

Design is a word that has begun to resonate with me deeply. To be a designer, to design systems. It seems like this is very characteristic of the INTP personality type which is very interesting.

The field of design that has recently captured my obsessive interest is ecological design or Permaculture. Anyone here know of it? It fits with my ethics and general feeling that the world must be changed fundamentally.

At this point though I have a fear that if I commit myself to a field, I won't be able to commit to it fully because I'll immediately start to doubt that it is what I want to do. Thus a lot of time, money, and psychological effort wasted.

best,
e

I can relate a lot to what you're expressing - the world indeed needs to be fundamentally redesigned. I have chosen permaculture as the vehicle for my compulsion to design a better world. I too wavered in direction for many years, and still find I want more knowledge before I even begin to feel competent in implementing my vision, but permaculture is an essential foundation element for anyone who aspires to creating an authentic world.

 

[lightspeed]

Welcome Guys!

 

[Wisp]

Greetings. Does the walker choose the path, or the path the walker? </cryptic>

 

[smallbird]

"At this point though I have a fear that if I commit myself to a field, I won't be able to commit to it fully because I'll immediately start to doubt that it is what I want to do. Thus a lot of time, money, and psychological effort wasted."



I was JUST exactly like that until just a while ago. The problem: I had too many interests - couldn't pick just one. I was heavily involved in showing horses, playing the fiddle, and writing a book: all stuff I loved (and still love) doing. Which one to choose for a career?

Everyone's different, but here's what happened to me. . . . . .

I used to picture myself as an old lady, sitting in her rocking chair, reliving memories from the past. I wondered: what would I regret NOT doing - not contributing to? And I knew - I'd know since I was little.....I was just afraid of where the decision to follow it would take me. INTP's don't want to forfeit freedom. The problem: your destiny is never free. It'll cost you something, and I was afraid of that cost.

. . . . . . On October 6th, 2006 I was in what should have been a fatal car accident. I wasn't buckled in, I hit a tree going 60mph, impact on driver's side (mine, and I was driving alone). My head didn't even bump the window -which would have been a fatal blow or a serious concussion. I broke my right leg, right arm, and punctured my lung. Three weeks later, I was admitted to the Arthur James Cancer hospital for my lymph nodes - the ER scanners had spotted them at 3 times the size they should have been, and doctors thought they were cancerous.

During this traumatic time, there was a lot of turmoil going on around me - obviously: completely immoble, in a lot of pain, scheduled for 2 surgeries, and possibly a limmited time to live Yet the weirdest thing was: I was incredibly calm on the inside. I knew God was with me, and whatever happed - life or death - I was going to be okay because of that.

Yet something else was going on inside me.....I was processing everything through my "T," and kept coming to the same amazing revelation:

I'd never really lived. . . and that was a bigger shame than dying.

I remember saying to God: you know, however much time I have left, I'm going to really live with it.
At that time, I didn't know if that was 3 months or 3 years, I just knew that I wasn't going to waste any more time. Several weeks later, all the tests came back negative. I got a second chance, it seemed. I swear, at that moment, the sun became brighter and I said to myself, "what a wonderful world". I felt like I came alive for the first time in my life.

I haven't looked back since then. I'm 2 years from law school now, studying Chinese, and finally on my way to becoming an international lawyer to China. I'd always had a nagging feeling (since I was 6) that I was going to be working in China, and as I got older, I was invariably drawn to the law and humans rights issues. I just ignored that feeling because it was inconvenient and intimidating.. but it never went away.

What scared me before possesses my passion now.

And I think that's a principle for INTPs. We look to our interests for guidance - to find out what we're supposed to do. I never found it there.
What we should be looking to is our fear. . . . . . . . . . .what are you avoiding because it requires a commitment you're afraid to make?
That is where your destiny lies - in faith. Faith is commiting yourself to something bigger than you are, not knowing where it will lead you.
At least, that's been my experience.

 

[Wisp]

I don't think I need a job in public relations... But seriously, that's heavy duty stuff right there, but, I have to take it with a grain of salt. I doubt that'll work in all circumstances, only in certain psyches. Not all people fear what they love the most. Really.

 

[Linsejko]

I dunno, my N says it rings relatively true.

I've never heard about permaculture until a moment ago, just read the wiki about it...

...fascinating.

I, too, have always been obsessed with my future, and with my potential career. Ultimately, I kind of reject the traditional notion of career right now. I'm kind of leaning towards moving to Israel & doing college for two years, and then seeing where the wind blows me, using a degree to teach English as a second language to get a job wherever I go.

And perhaps, perhaps, I'll get a belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu & teach out of my home for some side money.

Best of luck, though.

Oh, and to smallbird; inspiring, provocative post. Very interesting to hear about an INTP having a near death experience, as opposed to one of those Fs. (kidding).

But seriously, that was some great food for thought. I'm excited to hear how well it worked out for you.

.L

 

[QueenHera]

i've stopped obsessing over my future. although i used to a lot.

sometimes i occasionally think about what i might be doing in ten years time but then again i figured it will be completely opposite so why bother. i've learnt to live day by day.

i've moved around so much over the past decade, i've only come to settle down the past year or so. prior to that i was going around the middle east, europe, asia... ended up back home anyway.

right now i'm doing what i love.... i have a job i really enjoy and a huge part of it is the fact that there's no fixed schedule. i am very lucky in that sense. i've had really terrible jobs and i'd have to say the worst were the ones where i had to clock in and clock out. i don't think i could ever do that.

and yes like many of you here i did obsess over salary and pay. i still do. i wouldnt do anything that didn't reward me enough. so in that sense, i am very lucky.

 

[Linsejko]

Are you a programmer or sysadmin or something? (=flexible hours*good pay).

Which part of the world was your favorite?

.L

 

[EditorOne]

"that any career choice must be final and coherent or it will be totally eroded by doubt.'

Let me share some reverse good news: The 'problem' a lot of people are learning they must face is that they will change jobs for sure and careers more than likely simply because of the way we live and work these days. Your grandfather might have gone to work for General Motors in 1953 expecting to stay there until he retired; you won't. You will have multiple employers. You will probably work at different levels in various organizational hierarchies. You will quite possibly find out that the career you've chosen has, like making buggy whips, been rendered unnecessary by changes in the world. These are all huge problems for a lot of people. For an INTP, it's almost good news.

On the other hand, there are some professions where we tend to stay in one general field but get enough change to satisfy that three-years-and-out thing you'll find is your norm for how long you can stand to do something. Architect, for instance. Management consultant. I've survived journalism for 36 years because what I did every three years changed: reporter, bureau chief, editorial page editor, managing editor, online editor, editor, etc. and four changes of employer to boot. Right now journalism is changing like crazy and my little paper is right on the bleeding edge of that change, which is extremely satisfying -- lots of "design" ideas are coming into play, roles are changing, it's amazing. Right now I have an entire newsroom thinking about new revenue sources; not something you'd have seen anywhere in the world five years ago, but they're taking it in stride and so far we've got a dozen ideas and have already arranged for another $75,000 to come in the door with things we've initiated.
And before any of that I worked as a carpenter, which is looking better and better as a post-retirement gig, because all the stuff I learned in 1971 has been replaced with new and better materials and techniques, so it's like a whole new field to learn.

Another "comfort blankie": When you do find yourself momentarily stalled in one of those mindnumbing jobs, you can always find the fastest way to get it done and look forward to getting off the clock so you can indulge whatever "hobby" your mind has led you to attempt. Model railroading when I was a kid - there's that architect thing. Writing -- three books and counting. Living history -- can you possibly ever learn enough about history to recreate it to the point where you can grasp some of the original insights? Not talking SCA here, either. Hunting, boatbuilding, fishing with a seine, even trapping, barbaric as that might seem to some of you: All things I've indulged to the point of competency and then left behind.

So relax. There's a really good chance, as an INTP, that there is nothing that will rivet your attention for an entire lifespan. The good news is twofold: That's OK, and the world is perhaps better suited to people like us than it ever has been before. And the self awareness we have is a big part of that. :-)

Hope that's helpful.