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The elusive ENTJ.

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#1
The subject I’d like to address here is quite important to INTPs and that is how to find the ENTJ.


I realise this post might come across as chauvinistic and one sided because I’m a guy and really I’m only interested in finding female ENTJs, specifically ones that aren’t Ivanka Trump, and also the kind of frumpy ones that are usually listed in type lists of celebrities (I’m thinking Margaret Thatcher et al). Also, I don’t believe I actually know any ENTJ males; not any that I’ve typed anyhow.



I’ve slowly become obsessed with MBTI and cognitive functions ever since doing a personality test and coming out ISTJ. It certainly didn’t fit for me so I went looking for the right one and the one I identified most with was INTP. I’ve since read the online resources and the excellent Lenore Thomson book whilst also learning to type with the methods laid down by Adymus.



I reckon I’m getting quite good at it too. I typed all my family, friends and the people at work. Most of them that is; some are more challenging than others. I also know I can’t verify the accuracy of my results to the forum. The two that are/were causing me the most difficulty have been my bosses Brian and Cathy. My other boss, Bill, is quite clearly INTP.


I’ve come to suspect Brian as either ISTJ or ESTJ but I dunno; he’s hard to type.
Cathy used to sit across from me at work, and we instantly hit it off. She’s married with a kid so I basically put the kibosh on trying to get to know her on a romantic basis. She has since got her own office and I don’t really get to see her or talk to her as much, but I totally pine for her so bad. I used to get really jealous too it’s unreal, especially if she’s flirting with other guys. I looooove her.


Anyway, I’ve come to type her as ENTJ. When she was sitting with me she was really mellow but since the big boss Kevin left (ENTP) the other bosses have had to take on much more work and this has brought out her “Executive” side. She’s really impressive: able to talk about work related stuff fluently and authoritatively, is able to spin many plates at once and it never seems like she is struggling at all. She is almost certainly headed for a higher position within the company. I suppose the thing that made it hard for me to type her was her social abilities, I was sure for quite a long time she was an ENFJ but I’ve since revised that, based on using the Adymus/Podlair methods.


Sorry about all of that backstory, hopefully it will function as my “intro” post too, but the point was to illustrate how ENTJs might be so good with people you might not recognise them as ENTJs. I believe I have found at least 3 other female ENTJs that will definitely NOT remind you of Margaret Thatcher. Please do say if you disagree:


Shirley Manson from Garbage

Identical in most ways to my boss apart from the hair colour/ accent. I think she’s married to an INTP too, he’s a Garbage producer.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMoaIgGWo_o


Christine Bleakley from BBC’s One Show
This is the one I’m most unsure about because she’s just impossibly lovely.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUudNlt_Bn0

Victoria Beckham – Posh Spice
I think Victoria Beckham gets a hard time for looking surly, but really she’s probably just extraverted thinking. You can see in this interview how directive and engaged she is by the questions. She looks like she’s getting impatient when David’s speaking.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSzeCW3Ugsc


Finally I’d like to leave you with this illustration of what the ENTJ/INTP relationship dynamic looks like in real time. It’s the adorable Darksydephil and girlfriend PandaLee.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrE9jH2b0Fs&feature=plcp
 
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#5
She has since got her own office and I don’t really get to see her or talk to her as much, but I totally pine for her so bad. I used to get really jealous too it’s unreal, especially if she’s flirting with other guys. I looooove her.
You (and apparently everyone else in the office) are being used. Cut the ideal from your memory and learn to use those god-given elbow joints of yours.
 

redbaron

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#8
ENTJ is elusive?
 
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#9
I think my newest crush is an ENTJ; I originally assumed ESTJ; I'm not sure how to distinguish the two at the moment, as I've only interacted with her one-on-one, but not with a group of people.
 

Ink

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#10
I scan around a lot for ENTJ friends, I have an acquaintance who is and there's a deep mutual respect between us, we get along great... I still think ENFJs are better partners for INTPs, but the ENTJ dynamic would be really great too I'd suspect... Too bad they are so incredibly rare though, finding a good-looking one might be impossible lol
 

Auburn

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#15
Nice, it's interesting that you're into this sort of thing also.

From a quick view...

- Shirley Manson is indeed TeNi/ENTJ, nice.
- Christine Bleakley isn't though, she's an Fe/Ti user, likely Fe-lead.
- Victoria Beckam does have those functions (Te/Fi/Se/Ni), but her Fi is really heavy. She might be Fi-lead but I'll need to look closer.

- - The fourth girl does little talking so I'm not sure.. but the guy is *definitely* not INTP. He uses Ni+Fe and is probably NiFe.

A clear example of an ENTJ (Te+Ni) would be Sarah Polley..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKwmSsBnnlY
 
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#16
@Ink
I think you might be right about the INTP but I can’t tell the other guy, they are trying too hard to be tough/cool.
@Auburn
I think I got a bit ahead of myself in labelling the ENTJs in the OP. So to clarify:
In the bottom pair I believe the guy (Darksydephil) to be the ENTJ and the gal (PandaLee) to be INTP. That is despite me only just saying that I didn’t think I knew any ENTJ males. He’s Darksydephil and is able to talk continuously for hours and hours. But he is really funny though.
In the second post I think Liam Gallagher is INTP and his wife Nicole Appleton to be ENTJ.
And I think Athene is ENTJ and his girlfriend Tanya INTP.
[FONT=&quot]I agree that Sarah Polley is an ENTJ. She’s HOT! I found it easier to see it when I got a video where I could see her body language. There is a lot of shaking of invisible egg boxes, moving stuff around, and slicing. Upright posture. It’s in an interview where she is talking to George Stroumboulopoulos.[/FONT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgEqQIyW9wg


I disagree that Christine Bleakley is using Fe. Here is a video with Christine Bleakley where you can see the same body language as Sarah Polley. She is talking about her sister’s fitness video and specifically watch from about 2:15.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_mzQPUOUBQ
The posture is similar, leaning forward, eggboxes, slicing, moving stuff around, single minded. This I would say is quintessential ENTJ behaviour.
See once you get her going, you can’t shut her up. And similarly Sarah Polley is exasperated that her interview comes to an end.
And:
Channing Tatum (Chemistry with Amanda Seyfried INTP?)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUH8iI0t4rE
Plus I think that ENTJ Fi can be super heavy. It’s really obvious even though they maybe don’t realise that they’re doing it. It is almost unconscious for them and consequently they don’t really have any control over it. That’s how you can tell they like you!
 

Auburn

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#17
*grins*

You're close! I think I know what you're trying to describe by "invisible eggboxes" (did you come up with that metaphor?) but that trait is not exclusive to Te, it is a trait of both articulation functions (Te&Fe). Vertical and horizontal head shakes are shared by both.

The difference, however, is two main things:


  • Te head rattles are more consecutive (quicker rate) while Fe head rattles are longer and few - generally because more conscious investment goes into them.
  • Fe head rattles swell; they pick up speed fast, reach a max, then slow down about midway through the shake and then trickles to a halt smoothly. During the apex of the swell there is a release of Emotional warmth that impacts the audience. Te head rattles don't have a swell within them. The velocity of the shaking remains fixed. They also don't emit a wave of feeling outward. There is a coldness, rather, to their gestures.


In Christine Bleakley, her articulation is warming, swelling, emitting, and invested. Contrast that against Polley whose articulation gestures (like nods/shrugs/shakes) are more quick, blunt, "wutever", and generally cold.


I'm curious to know if you see it..
 
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#18
I heard the metaphor quite a long time ago when someone used it to describe the gesticulations used by a famous news reporter. Some people get annoyed by news reporters gesticulating because they find it distracting - it was poking fun.

With the eggboxes I am only referring to when it looks like they are holding an eggbox, or whatever, in their hands and they are shaking it up and down. I'm not speaking about head movements.

I've read your Cognitive Physiognomy website and to be honest learned a heck of a lot from it, but the head movement thing was something I had trouble using in real life, because as you say both Fe and Te users both move their head in both directions.

I kind of see it but I'd need more practice.

When you really look at them though, I just don't see a heck of a lot of difference. A Te-Fi user will be using both functions at the same time to a greater or lesser extent. Could it not be the case that Christine is just more adept at using her Fi than Sarah Polley so she puts more feeling into her articulation, or rather Sarah Polley just doesn't place as much emphasis in Fi because she doesn't think it has as big a role in an interview about her career.
Unless a person is really sidelining their Fi would normal articulation ever come across as cold, but cooling is something that is quite hard to measure.

It's like Christine Bleakley is going inside herself regularly to regain warmth and that keeps the articulation hot overall. But that's still Fi. Maybe that makes sense?
 

Auburn

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#19
Oh I see, then it wasn't what I thought you were saying...
Ah, interesting, I'm glad to have helped you learn a bit.. o.o

Hmm... there are other cues I've identified that are less ambiguous than warming/cooling. {indeed all types warm & cool at different times}.

Fi in inferior position:
2 qualities to the smile:

Manic :: The Fi smile of a Te dominant will be unnatural and awkward on their face. When it emerges it entirely changes their complexion in a way that does not synch with their normal Te deadpan face. In other words when Fi creeps up on their face it overthrows the Te 'composure' and looks bizarre.

Te-lead Richard Dawkins:

[bimgx=200]http://i.imgur.com/LyjTf67.jpg[/bimgx] [bimgx=200]http://i.imgur.com/TcGhi0z.jpg[/bimgx] [bimgx=200]http://i.imgur.com/vVeq0pa.jpg[/bimgx]

By default Te dom/aux have a certain smug look about them, but this smugness is thrown out the window when Fi creeps up on their face. In contrast, Fe doms and all Fe types for that matter, have an "on-standby" smile waiting to be used, that appears quite in synch with the rest of their face's dynamics. In other words, for Fe users their smile is integrated into the rest of their facial gestures while Fi smiles aren't -- and either overturn other gestures or conflict with them creating erroneous expressions of many sorts.

Sorrowful :: The Fi smile, regardless of the position in the hierarchy, will emit a level of Sorrow on the face*. It is as if the facial muscles are constantly contracting in the way that elicits sorrow, but as a default.
* = or in some cases the opposite, an accidental giddyness

[bimgx=200]http://i.imgur.com/IaU2FjZ.jpg[/bimgx]
[bimgx=200]http://i.imgur.com/snzJIRP.jpg[/bimgx]

These two things alone greatly help differentiate between Te-dom and Fe-dom. Christine's smiles seem greatly natural and well integrated into her face.
 

Ink

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#20
I thought we concluded Dawkins was an INTP a while ago, now you force me to investigate ENTJs more Auburn...
 
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#21
Finally I’d like to leave you with this illustration of what the ENTJ/INTP relationship dynamic looks like in real time. It’s the adorable Darksydephil and girlfriend PandaLee.
Interesting.. it doesn't appear that either of these people are INTPs. I'd say the girl is likely a INFP. Her eyes move around a lot, as if her perception of the environment is her focus. She has buoyancy, although she seems to be shy, her movements are brisk. She seems like she may have Fi as well, although Fi would be over Te in her functional stack imo. The guy does seem like he could be Te dominant.. maybe an ENTJ.

As far as the dynamics of INTP/ENTJ pairings go.. if you want my 2 cents, I went through at least 2 of them. I found both experiences quite draining. While my desire was to discuss theoretical/philosophical topics, their desire was to focus on practical social concepts and 'prove' their ideas right over mine. While they tended to be very traditional, I tended to be unconventional and create my own rules. They were very social and demanded my constant attention, while I required quiet time to myself. Whereas they put a high value on material possessions, and tended to buy the latest and greatest gadgets "just because", I thought of this behavior as wasteful. They both loved food and were somewhat overweight, while eating is not usually interesting to me. They enjoyed a rather cynical humor that usually was at the expense of someone else, while I found their jokes inconsiderate and tasteless. Overall, they seemed overbearing, loud and course to me, while they complained that I was too quiet, distant and delicate. It didn't work out because there was no common basis for compatibility. Though, it is said that opposites attract, which may be the case for some people.
 

Auburn

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#22
I thought we concluded Dawkins was an INTP a while ago, now you force me to investigate ENTJs more Auburn...
Hehe. Good! ...Because he's definitely not INTP, he's ESTJ. And totally breaks the stereotype of "ESTJs are dumb, brute workaholics". I quite admire him.

I could note a few more things about him too. Here are more cues of Te:

Te Smugness: There is a very specific look that strong Te dom/aux have that is difficult to describe in words. It is a self-assured type of aura that is dry and walled-up. Though it is not hiding behind a wall; it's out in the open - but just impenetrable.

[bimgx=350]http://i.imgur.com/A88HhkR.jpg[/bimgx]
[bimgx=350]http://i.imgur.com/2aVnnrZ.jpg[/bimgx]

paired to...

[bimgx=350]http://i.imgur.com/juSBpw6.jpg[/bimgx]

[bimgx=350]http://i.imgur.com/sPXhZmB.jpg[/bimgx]
Fi Sorrow with Ni Zoned-Out:
[bimgx=244]http://i.imgur.com/PddcVAZ.jpg[/bimgx]

Fi Manic Smile:



Bill O'Reily is definitely Te-lead, quite likely TeNi but I can't watch him for too long without being aggravated so... lol. Goes to show how large a contrast can exist between people of same/similar types. ;)
 

Ink

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#23
I agree that Bill O'reilly is Te-lead (ESTJ I would be confident in saying)... Still, about Dawkins, visual cues can only give you so much, his way of putting so much focus and thought into single topics indicates strong Ti usage, he is often accused of being reductionist, another indicator of Ti, he always starts from the core of an idea then extends out etc... I just don't see Te in him
 
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#24
@PhoenixRising
The bottom pair in the OP I say are INTP/ENTJ. I'm certain the guy is ENTJ, and as for the girl, I just think she looks stereotypical INTP. Plus from the fact that these two are an item goes some way to confirm that pairing.
In my experience ENTJs and INTPs are drawn to each other and an instant "love at first sight" type attraction will result. This has happened to me on several occasions.

For various reasons I have not started a relationship with an ENTJ (other boyfriends, only speaks Korean, engaged with child, boss, sleepwalking in her flat and emptying her flatmate's underwear drawer on the floor, incompetency with the oopposite sex etc.). But they do seem to make make me anxious, paranoid and jealous and often feel like I'm better of without them! I'm thinking of finding a nice ESFJ. No joke! I've had this realisation since starting this thread. My experience with my ENTJ boss at my work ( I've since moved jobs) made me completely miserable. The other INTP at my work was spending a lot of time with her and it was making me insanely jealous and also the overall hopelessness of the situation with regard to her pre-existing fiance and kid.

@Auburn
I was hoping for your opinion on another couple of celebrities.
Amy Pheoler (who I think is ENTJ)
and
Anne Hathaway (ESFJ?)
 

NTJ

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#25
@PhoenixRising
The bottom pair in the OP I say are INTP/ENTJ. I'm certain the guy is ENTJ, and as for the girl, I just think she looks stereotypical INTP. Plus from the fact that these two are an item goes some way to confirm that pairing.
In my experience ENTJs and INTPs are drawn to each other and an instant "love at first sight" type attraction will result. This has happened to me on several occasions.

For various reasons I have not started a relationship with an ENTJ (other boyfriends, only speaks Korean, engaged with child, boss, sleepwalking in her flat and emptying her flatmate's underwear drawer on the floor, incompetency with the oopposite sex etc.). But they do seem to make make me anxious, paranoid and jealous and often feel like I'm better of without them! I'm thinking of finding a nice ESFJ. No joke! I've had this realisation since starting this thread. My experience with my ENTJ boss at my work ( I've since moved jobs) made me completely miserable. The other INTP at my work was spending a lot of time with her and it was making me insanely jealous and also the overall hopelessness of the situation with regard to her pre-existing fiance and kid.

@Auburn
I was hoping for your opinion on another couple of celebrities.
Amy Pheoler (who I think is ENTJ)
and
Anne Hathaway (ESFJ?)
Haha! Yes, INTPs hate ENTJs. ENFPs, INFPs, ISFPs are good for ENTJs, especially ENFPs. Or that seems to be the general notion, I haven't met any of those folks yet.

Speaking for myself, I am fast-going, I seldom, what people call, relax - I've been told many times that I should relax and enjoy the life. I am enjoying it, I don't need to be relaxed to do it!

INTPs seem to be slow-paced, slacker comes to mind - no offense meant guys. I couldn't interact efficiently, I would just get pissed off while he'd be looking for words to express himself - or at least that's what I've seen in a few INTP videos.
 
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#27
May I ask why you are asking Auburn for typing advice specifically? You weren't impressed by my typing abilities? :D
.. it must be because Auburn's typology theory is awesome ^^
 

snafupants

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#28
INTPs seem to be slow-paced, slacker comes to mind - no offense meant guys. I couldn't interact efficiently, I would just get pissed off while he'd be looking for words to express himself - or at least that's what I've seen in a few INTP videos.
I'm fine with the slacker label. John von Neumann (ENTP) called Einstein (INTP) slow, if I recall correctly. Compared to von Neumann, Einstein may have been an intellectual tortoise! ;)

But he's still the mother fuckin' only Einstein. Nobody says today, boy, he's sharp. He's a regular von Neumann! Maybe they should say that. :D
 

NTJ

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#29
I'm fine with the slacker label. John von Neumann (ENTP) called Einstein (INTP) slow, if I recall correctly. Compared to von Neumann, Einstein may have been an intellectual tortoise! ;)

But he's still the mother fuckin' only Einstein. Nobody says today, boy, he's sharp. He's a regular von Neumann! Maybe they should say that. :D
I can't have a decent discussion with slow people, if I have to wait longer than 2 seconds until they think of the next word in the middle a sentence, fuck them. My mind wanders off if I respect them, if not, I just go with what I have - half a sentence.

I especially hate ISTJs, every single one that I've met make 2-4s pauses between words once or twice in a sentence, even if I start talking, they just continue with their sentence while I'm talking, as if they were in their head all that time and didn't hear a word I said. That drives me crazy, the conversations feel so inefficient.
 

Auburn

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#30
@Auburn
I was hoping for your opinion on another couple of celebrities.
Amy Pheoler (who I think is ENTJ)
and
Anne Hathaway (ESFJ?)
Holy crap, I could tell Amy Pheoler was Te+Ni instantly. Like, just by viewing the thumbnails on youtube.

Anne Hathaway is a very warm and buoyant type. Good Fe user with Ne momentum. She uses her functions in an interesting way, though. The way she bubbles up energy is quite high-Ne. Oh I think I see what she's doing now.

She's likely NeTi, that plays up a caring/warm Fe.

Her Fe energy, if you notice, needs to be called out -- and it is called out through buoyant Ne. In contrast an ESFJ/FeSi has their Fe *out* by default. When Anne calls out Fe it is flavored with the silly and playful energy of Ne.

Anne's articulation is more casual and she glides/flows from one thought to the next without really concerning herself. Fe leads will be guardians of their beliefs. Anne just seems like she has beliefs, but she isn't her beliefs.
 

snafupants

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#31
Holy crap, I could tell Amy Pheoler was Te+Ni instantly. Like, just by viewing the thumbnails on youtube.

Anne Hathaway is a very warm and buoyant type. Good Fe user with Ne momentum. She uses her functions in an interesting way, though. The way she bubbles up energy is quite high-Ne. Oh I think I see what she's doing now.

She's likely NeTi, that plays up a caring/warm Fe.
I saw Anne Hathaway on Chelsea Lately like five weeks ago. Anne is almost the quintessence of Jung's Fe. It's somewhat pathetic - she's very concerned with previously validated things. Anne's whole face is definitely in on the act when she laughs too.
 

Ink

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#32


I saw Anne Hathaway on Chelsea Lately like three weeks ago. Anne is almost the quintessence of Jung's Fe. It's somewhat pathetic - she's very concerned with previously validated things. Anne's whole face is definitely in on the act when she laughs too.
Some ENFJs on another board typed her as that, ENFJ. Makes sense from what I've seen of her.
 

snafupants

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#33
Some ENFJs on another board typed her as that, ENFJ. Makes sense from what I've seen of her.
Yuck, that wouldn't surprise me. She's so fucking pretentious, but in a materialistic and revoltingly plastic Fe-Se way. I wouldn't rule out Enneagram three either. :D
 

snafupants

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#34
Bill O'Reily is definitely Te-lead, quite likely TeNi but I can't watch him for too long without being aggravated so... lol. Goes to show how large a contrast can exist between people of same/similar types. ;)
@Auburn

The "no-spin zone" is so off the mark I often find it funny. It's like someone who reads and perfectly lines up a two foot putt and then rims it out. At some point the scenario becomes absurd.

But yeah, I have definitely noticed the Te-smugness. A heavy Te user will tend to lean in when making points whereas a heavy Ti will deadpan and pull back to assess. :D

Like his extraverted parallel, he is decisively influenced by ideas; these, however, have their origin, not in the objective data but in the subjective foundation. Like the extravert, he too will follow his ideas, but in the reverse direction: inwardly not outwardly.
Jung's description of Ti as insular is pretty funny. Basically Ti is in constant conflict with its unconscious "archaic" counterparts and constantly warding off other people and their uninformed opinions. In such a manner the Ti ivory tower is maintained. ;)

One can feel nothing in it that might possibly confer a higher value upon the object; it always seems to go beyond the object, leaving behind it a flavour of a certain subjective superiority.
 
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#35
@PhoenixRising
The bottom pair in the OP I say are INTP/ENTJ. I'm certain the guy is ENTJ, and as for the girl, I just think she looks stereotypical INTP. Plus from the fact that these two are an item goes some way to confirm that pairing.
In my experience ENTJs and INTPs are drawn to each other and an instant "love at first sight" type attraction will result. This has happened to me on several occasions.

For various reasons I have not started a relationship with an ENTJ (other boyfriends, only speaks Korean, engaged with child, boss, sleepwalking in her flat and emptying her flatmate's underwear drawer on the floor, incompetency with the oopposite sex etc.). But they do seem to make make me anxious, paranoid and jealous and often feel like I'm better of without them! I'm thinking of finding a nice ESFJ. No joke! I've had this realisation since starting this thread. My experience with my ENTJ boss at my work ( I've since moved jobs) made me completely miserable. The other INTP at my work was spending a lot of time with her and it was making me insanely jealous and also the overall hopelessness of the situation with regard to her pre-existing fiance and kid.
You could be right that she's an INTP.. I don't claim to be an expert at typing by any means. Plus there's not that much footage of her talking, she is very reserved. She still seems like an explorer lead to me though, and her reactions and movements are very brisk/sharp like a Te/Fi user.

Interesting that you've found yourself attracted to ENTJs on multiple occasions. I wonder if it's just a personal preference or if the inverted nature of their functions compared to INTPs has much to do with it? I definitely notice a kind of instant attraction to ENTJs - not necessarily a romantic attraction though. It's mostly the eyes I think, they have Ni, so there is an intelligent, penetrating quality to their gaze.
 
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#36
@PhoenixRising
I don't think it's just personal preference, all ENTJ's will be attracted to all INTP's and vice versa.
My friend is highly sceptical of MBTI mainly because an expert came into his work and typed him as INFP - "still waters run deep", which is crazy because he is definitely ENFP - really charismatic and everything. And I said his typing was wrong, but no-one I know listens to me and he doesn't think I can call out the professional typologist. Well fair enough. But I was able to go and name all the people he had an instant attraction too.
He is sort of related, by marriage, to a famous rock star and I know he's been to a few family dinners with said rock star. I know this rock star is INFJ through video typing so therefore as a ENFP he should feel a special connection to him and I said as much. He said that he had felt a kind of attraction ,not sexual obviously, and said it was like this guy was searching for the mischief in his eyes (sounds romantic though when I put it like that!). Anyway INFJ-ENFP INTP-ENTJ ENTP-INTJ etc those are the matches. It's to do with the subconscious calling out for someone to project onto, according to Jung...or something.

@Auburn @Ink @snafupants
Anne Hathaway is very Ne but I think she could literally not be anymore expressive if she tried. She's got to be the most Fe person on the Planet other than maybe Nicole Scherzinger or ENTP Jim Carrey (ok...take your point). She doesn't look like she does too much introverted thinking, wouldn't that be more on show if she was ENTP?
 

Auburn

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#37
@Lordran Nights - The thing is, more expressiveness doesn't directly correlate with hierarchical position. Let me explain.

There is a phenomenon that happens with all explorer (Ne/Se lead) types, and that is that they have a lot of momentum to them -- and part of that momentum includes their articulation. Look at someone like Oprah Winfrey (Fe dom). You will see that she is less active/expressive than Anne Hathaway, but her Fe is more *real* and saturates her words profoundly.

Te & Fe dominants may actually articulate less than really hyped-up Ne/Se dominants that use their tertiary function effectively. The difference lies in the style of energy they have. Momentum/explorer energy is different than articulation-lead energy. An explorer lead wielding their tertiary articulation function will elicit more articulation signals at a faster rate - because of the sheer momentum - but they will be less potent and less angular/exacting. They back down easily, if not on their own. There will be a casualness to their speech. In contrast, Fe-doms aren't really that casual, they usually have an aura that is more invasive and... too big to be contained. You can feel them in the room even if they're being silent.

Let me present another example. Barak Obama. He's Fe-dominant but he's quite stiff, not all that animate, but known for his charm and persuasive ability -- ability to win the public's trust (Fe). Jim Carrey is a good example too, of someone who has a lot of Fe articulation that really isn't going anywhere. There is no solidity in its use, it's just courtesy. As with Anne, imo.
 

snafupants

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#38
Anne Hathaway is very Ne but I think she could literally not be anymore expressive if she tried. She's got to be the most Fe person on the Planet other than maybe Nicole Scherzinger or ENTP Jim Carrey (ok...take your point). She doesn't look like she does too much introverted thinking, wouldn't that be more on show if she was ENTP?
@Lordran Nights

Presupposing she has as much extraverted intuition as you emphasize, which I doubt.

Your concession that Anne doesn't have much introverted thinking enhances the case for ENFJ.
 

Auburn

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#40
He is listed as such on some sites, probably because he took the test at some point in his career and that's what he got. Said "cool beans" then moved on. Then mypersonality.info got a hold of that trivia and published it on their site without thinking twice.

But ya, he's hardcore ENTP.
 
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#41


@Lordran Nights

Presupposing she has as much extraverted intuition as you emphasize, which I doubt.

Your concession that Anne doesn't have much introverted thinking enhances the case for ENFJ.
My case is for typing Anne Hathaway as an ESFJ. They use Ne in third position, so it's there. There will be that type of humour on show. Anne Hathaway is actually really funny and she's good at improv type humour. I don't think you need to be a dominant Ne user to be able to do that.

ESFJs will have Ne-Si eyes and the way I check for that is to rule out the Ni eye drift, because that's quite an easy thing to spot. I think AH has Ne-Si eyes. In contrast Nicole Scherzinger has Ni-Se eyes and has to be ENFJ.

The being concerned with only previously validated facts, how do you mean?

As for Anne not having much Ti, my point there is that if she was ENTP, as Auburn suggests, there would be more Ti usage on display. ESFJ and ENFJ both use Ti in 4th position so you can't use Ti to distinguish between ESFJ and ENFJ.

But you know I need more ESFJ examples, like all I have is Jennifer Anniston and Rachel Bilson.

@Auburn
I think Barack Obama is way more concerned about Fe matters than a leader of the free world should be! Example - When Nicki Minaj fell out with Mariah Carrey:

'Barack Obama took a break from attempting to get re-elected for a second presidential term, to discuss the feud on Y100 radio in America.

"I'm all about bringing people together, working for the same cause," he said. "I think that they are going to be able to sort it out. I am confident."

He continued: "I think both outstanding artists are going to be able to make sure that they're moving forward and not going backward."'
 

snafupants

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#42
My case is for typing Anne Hathaway as an ESFJ. They use Ne in third position, so it's there. There will be that type of humour on show. Anne Hathaway is actually really funny and she's good at improv type humour. I don't think you need to be a dominant Ne user to be able to do that.

ESFJs will have Ne-Si eyes and the way I check for that is to rule out the Ni eye drift, because that's quite an easy thing to spot. I think AH has Ne-Si eyes. In contrast Nicole Scherzinger has Ni-Se eyes and has to be ENFJ.

The being concerned with only previously validated facts, how do you mean?

As for Anne not having much Ti, my point there is that if she was ENTP, as Auburn suggests, there would be more Ti usage on display. ESFJ and ENFJ both use Ti in 4th position so you can't use Ti to distinguish between ESFJ and ENFJ.

But you know I need more ESFJ examples, like all I have is Jennifer Anniston and Rachel Bilson.
That's a valid hypothesis, but my ENFJ sister doesn't really show the Ni drift. :eek:
 

Smooch

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#43
I don't know that I've ever met an INTP IRL, so IDK if ENTJ/INTP are a good match or not. I really think it depends on the person. The ENTJ that I knew dated girls who seemed to be a little shy, friendly and polite, and overall someone easy to appease. He told me that he took a traditional approach to relationships in that he'd like to be the one supporting his wife and kids, but would expect both he and his wife were able to support the family. In other words, he wanted someone smart and feminine. I could see an ENTJ with an INFP who has a highly developed Fe.

Also, not sure if this is true of all ENTJs, but he really demanded that people communicate well.(whatever that means) With that in mind I think INTP/ENTJ is a good match, considering the INTP takes their time to find the exact right words.

This is where he and I differed. I always felt that if he understood what I meant it shouldn't matter how I said it.

Oh well, he was a good lay. :D
 
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#44
someone easy to appease
^this.. is probably one reason INTPs tend to be frustrating in relationships. We are impossible to please, complete perfectionists, and in my experience, we're looking for deeper meaning in human interaction - in other words, love is never enough, neither philosophically or in practical application. It's unlikely to make an INTP of either gender happy with flowers or by trying to "kiss their troubles away".
 

redbaron

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#45
PhoenixRising said:
this.. is probably one reason INTPs tend to be frustrating in relationships. We are impossible to please, complete perfectionists
What...
 

scorpiomover

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#46
^this.. is probably one reason INTPs tend to be frustrating in relationships. We are impossible to please, complete perfectionists, and in my experience, we're looking for deeper meaning in human interaction - in other words, love is never enough, neither philosophically or in practical application. It's unlikely to make an INTP of either gender happy with flowers or by trying to "kiss their troubles away".
I recall a image of 16 types, with stickers and slogans for each type, on their attitudes to love. The one for INTPs was "Loving you is easy".
 
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#47
I think I'm going to recant my opinion of Christine Bleakley being a ENTJ and Anne Hathaway being an ESFJ. Because I'm not sure anymore.

Auburn is probably right. Anne Hathaway emotes so much like Sarah Silverman and everyone lists her as ENTP.

And Christine Bleakley is far too gushy to be Te, she even reaches over and touches people in interviews, which is pretty "invasive".

So there. :o
 

Ink

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#48
I think I'm going to recant my opinion of Christine Bleakley being a ENTJ and Anne Hathaway being an ESFJ. Because I'm not sure anymore.

Auburn is probably right. Anne Hathaway emotes so much like Sarah Silverman and everyone lists her as ENTP.

And Christine Bleakley is far too gushy to be Te, she even reaches over and touches people in interviews, which is pretty "invasive".

So there. :o
Sarah Silverman is such a clear ISFJ, who says she's an ENTP?
 

scorpiomover

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#49
I think I'm going to recant my opinion of Christine Bleakley being a ENTJ and Anne Hathaway being an ESFJ. Because I'm not sure anymore.

Auburn is probably right. Anne Hathaway emotes so much like Sarah Silverman and everyone lists her as ENTP.

And Christine Bleakley is far too gushy to be Te, she even reaches over and touches people in interviews, which is pretty "invasive".

So there. :o
You ever seen Sarah Silverman speak? It's like watching someone go "WHAM! Smack in the kisser!" and then laugh. It'd agree that she's a TP.

Sarah Silverman quotes:

"I'm Jewish, but I'm totally not."

Appreciates a contradiction in her own nature.

"I like my life alone."

"I was paralyzed with fear. It was unbearable to be among other kids who were just standing around being fine. It was one of the many inconveniences of this paradox I lived with -the more people I was surrounded by, the more frighteningly alone I felt."

Introvert.

"I mean, I love being with friends and I love kissing and loving someone to pieces. But it's hard to find someone who doesn't ultimately start judging you and your choices."

Perceiver.

"I never want to be in a position where I have to defend my material. It's too subjective. It's for other people to defend or not defend."

Admits to being an introverted dominant.

"I really think everything is fair game."

Tertiary or inferior Fe.

"I'm a very ritualistic person. I have to wash my face twice, and on the second wash before I rinse, I brush my teeth, then I rinse, then I floss, then I put on moisturizer. I'm ritualistic. Jewishness is very ritualistic."

INTP or ISTP. But I'm leaning towards ISTP. ISTPs seem to have that insane sense of humour that I find both hilarious, and unbelievably sexy.

Anne Hathaway quotes:

"Loneliness is my least favorite thing about life. The thing that I'm most worried about is just being alone without anybody to care for or someone who will care for me."

"I've always believed in people's capacity for goodness. I still believe that people are good. What I'm not so trusting about anymore is their relationship to their own goodness."

So much a Feeler, it's not funny.

"Whether or not you agree with Ayn Rand - and I have certain issues with some of her beliefs - the woman can tell a story. I mean, the novel as an art form is just in full florid bloom in 'Atlas Shrugged.' It's an unbelievable story. The characters are so compelling, and what she's saying is mind-expanding."

Ni-doms "get" Rand, because she was a strong INTJ. Everyone else seems to either agree or disagree, but doesn't.

"I have no aspirations of world domination through the pop charts. None at all."

Talks about world domination. But does NOT want it to happen. Like an INTJ, but with Feelings instead of Rationality, and with the ability to be open about it, unlike INFJs, who are usually conspiracy theorists.

xNFJ.
 

scorpiomover

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#50
Te-lead Richard Dawkins:

[bimgx=200]http://i.imgur.com/LyjTf67.jpg[/bimgx] [bimgx=200]http://i.imgur.com/TcGhi0z.jpg[/bimgx] [bimgx=200]http://i.imgur.com/vVeq0pa.jpg[/bimgx]

By default Te dom/aux have a certain smug look about them, but this smugness is thrown out the window when Fi creeps up on their face. In contrast, Fe doms and all Fe types for that matter, have an "on-standby" smile waiting to be used, that appears quite in synch with the rest of their face's dynamics. In other words, for Fe users their smile is integrated into the rest of their facial gestures while Fi smiles aren't -- and either overturn other gestures or conflict with them creating erroneous expressions of many sorts.

Sorrowful :: The Fi smile, regardless of the position in the hierarchy, will emit a level of Sorrow on the face*. It is as if the facial muscles are constantly contracting in the way that elicits sorrow, but as a default.
* = or in some cases the opposite, an accidental giddyness

[bimgx=200]http://i.imgur.com/IaU2FjZ.jpg[/bimgx]
[bimgx=200]http://i.imgur.com/snzJIRP.jpg[/bimgx]
ExxJs show a strong bullishness to their behaviour. They can be easy-going, when things go their way. When things don't go their way, they will order others about, with all the subtlety of a sergeant major or a field general. If necessary, they will happily intimidate.

IxxJs show a naggingness to their behaviour. They are normally of the opinion that things are never going how they want. They don't bully directly. They just keep nagging, in lots of different ways, according to their preferred method as indicated by their other 2 letters, until the other person gives in, and they never stop nagging, about the very same things, until those people give in. Until they give in, they tend to talk with complete amazement and surprise, that anyone has heard their ideas and still refuses to do as they think people should.

If you pay attention to Richard Dawkins' behaviour in different lectures over the years, he always nags about the same things, and he is regularly suprised how people don't do as he thinks they should. It's pretty much his entire MO.

His eyes have the awe of an Ni-dom enjoying talking about his favourite ideas.

The uncomfortableness that you see in his smile, is thinly veiled frustration. He's holding back the desire to scream and shout, with every ounce. Sometimes, he even openly displays that constant frustration with humanity not "seeing the light" (his words).
 
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