Suicide: A Biproduct of Modern Society?

[boomkablamo]

So... Imagine the dawn of the human race. All activities and needs are directly rooted to survival. Find food, find water, find shelter, avoid being eaten, reproduce. No worrying about the big promotion, or your girlfriend breaking up with you, or how much money you have in the bank.

Now, ponder if suicide ever occurred at this stage in our species.

I, personally, do not believe it did. When constantly faced with the choice of going out for the hunt, or sitting in your cave and starving, I would imagine the primitive human would choose going out and hunting.

Or, perhaps, they simply did not understand the concept of death enough to know they could bring it about themselves.

So, with all this said, is our hectic, modern way of life the reason suicide is one of the leading unnatural causes of death?

And if it is, do you really think a society where people despise the lives they are privileged with so much, that they end them themselves, is a truly "modern" society?

I think if the way we live is enough to drive people to defy their ultimate instinct, survival, then we as a race have seriously fucked something up.

What is everyone's thoughts?

 

[Ulysses]

It's much simpler than that. I think that personality disorders are a byproduct of modern society, and as it turns out, they're usually the root cause behind most suicides.

 

[boomkablamo]

Personality disorders is just a humanized way of saying "someone who doesn't act or think like the majority".

They don't acually exist.

 

[Cryss Winters]

Personality disorders is just a humanized way of saying "someone who doesn't act or think like the majority".

They don't acually exist.

That's a very closed-minded view.

 

[Ulysses]

Personality disorders is just a humanized way of saying "someone who doesn't act or think like the majority".

They don't acually exist.

Yes they do, actually. Get out there, talk to people and see for yourself.

 

[boomkablamo]

Personality disorders are just a biological or developmental difference causing someone to not act the way we think they should.

Once again, it's just a label.

Explain how just because you don't act like most humans means you have a disorder.

Maybe insane people are actually sane, we just don't see it that way.

I'm not saying i believe this, but it is a possibility.

Explain how i'm close minded, but most importantly, try staying on topic.

:\

 

[Ulysses]

You're missing the point entirely.

Personality disorders are just a biological or developmental difference causing someone to not act the way we think they should.

Could those "differences" not alter their thinking in such a way that they might begin contemplating suicide when faced with emotional pain?

 

[boomkablamo]

You're missing the point entirely.



Could those "differences" not alter their thinking in such a way that they might begin contemplating suicide despite leading a perfectly normal life?

Being depressed or in pain really has nothing to do with that. While people with "personality disorders" might be more prone, people in every walk of life are susceptible to depression and/or suicide.

And personality disorders themselves are just a creation of modern society, meaning even if you are right suicide would still be an invention, or should i say bi product, of our modern way of living.

 

[Latro]

Personality disorders are just a biological or developmental difference causing someone to not act the way we think they should.

Once again, it's just a label.

Explain how just because you don't act like most humans means you have a disorder.

Maybe insane people are actually sane, we just don't see it that way.

I'm not saying i believe this, but it is a possibility.

Explain how i'm close minded, but most importantly, try staying on topic.

:\

If someone has a mental facet (not issue, just a facet) that they desperately wish to alter because it causes them pain, but they cannot seem to do so, is that not, from a pragmatic perspective, a "disorder"? Because individuals like that exist in large numbers.

 

[boomkablamo]

If someone has a mental facet (not issue, just a facet) that they desperately wish to alter because it causes them pain, but they cannot seem to do so, is that not, from a pragmatic perspective, a "disorder"? Because individuals like that exist in large numbers.

I'm not saying people don't have undesirable mental issues, i'm just saying the word personality disorder suggests there is some kind of established standard of human personality, which if a person does not display, they are said to have a disorder.

Although, wanting to fix a "disorder" probably comes merely from the fact that the person is led to believe that they are screwed up, as a result of this established standard.

Considering the unnatural world us humans now live in, not fitting into it would seem very natural. And completely fitting into it would seem very unnatural.

 

[Ulysses]

boomkablamo: I was just going to point you towards an article before you replied to my previous post. Anyway, here it is: <ohiospf.org/files/pwpdreattempts.pdf>. Make sure you've read it in its entirety before going on any further.

By the way, it looks to me like you're quibbling over the correct usage of the word "disorder".

 

[Latro]

I'm not saying people don't have undesirable mental issues, i'm just saying the word personality disorder suggests there is some kind of established standard of human personality, which if a person does not display, they are said to have a disorder.

Although, wanting to fix a "disorder" probably comes merely from the fact that the person is led to believe that they are screwed up, as a result of this established standard.

Considering the unnatural world us humans now live in, not fitting into it would seem very natural. And completely fitting into it would seem very unnatural.

Eh...arbitrarily defining that personality traits "x, y, and z" constitute a personality disorder is flawed, yes, I agree. Some people consider introverts to have minor cases of social anxiety disorder, for example, and that is obviously not a "disorder" to us. But to take individualism so far as to say "screw the established standard, I'm different and I don't care...even though it makes me sad that I can't relate to anyone for this reason" (exaggeration but you get the idea) is flawed as well. Everything is a gray area.

 

[Sugarpop]

So... Imagine the dawn of the human race. All activities and needs are directly rooted to survival. Find food, find water, find shelter, avoid being eaten, reproduce. No worrying about the big promotion, or your girlfriend breaking up with you, or how much money you have in the bank.

Now, ponder if suicide ever occurred at this stage in our species.

I, personally, do not believe it did. When constantly faced with the choice of going out for the hunt, or sitting in your cave and starving, I would imagine the primitive human would choose going out and hunting.

Or, perhaps, they simply did not understand the concept of death enough to know they could bring it about themselves.

So, with all this said, is our hectic, modern way of life the reason suicide is one of the leading unnatural causes of death?

And if it is, do you really think a society where people despise the lives they are privileged with so much, that they end them themselves, is a truly "modern" society?

I think if the way we live is enough to drive people to defy their ultimate instinct, survival, then we as a race have seriously fucked something up.

What is everyone's thoughts?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'modern lifestyle'. We know of instances of suicide throughout the whole of recorded history.

Other points to note:

1. Conditions that may lead to suicide, such as bipolar disorders and depression, have been shown to have genetic causes - or a strong genetic component.
2. Animals - cheifly mammals - other than humans have been shown to commit suicide due emotional distress.

If you claim that suicide is an entirely modern, human phenomenon, I would say that you are obviously wrong.

Maybe you're just saying that suicide has become more prevalent in recent years for cultural reasons? If so, can you prove that the suicide rate has gone up since in 'modern times'?

 

[snowqueen]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'modern lifestyle'. We know of instances of suicide throughout the whole of recorded history.

Other points to note:

1. Conditions that may lead to suicide, such as bipolar disorders and depression, have been shown to have genetic causes - or a strong genetic component.
2. Animals - cheifly mammals - other than humans have been shown to commit suicide due emotional distress.

If you claim that suicide is an entirely modern, human phenomenon, I would say that you are obviously wrong.

Maybe you're just saying that suicide has become more prevalent in recent years for cultural reasons? If so, can you prove that the suicide rate has gone up since in 'modern times'?

It is only in the last century or so that suicide has been linked to mental illness in the sense that it is the domain of psychiatry to the extent that it is now a widely-held view that anyone who kills him/herself is mentally ill. This has had two main effects - one that many people who previously might have killed themselves are helped not to do so by preventative action to address their mental distress B~U~T there has been a rise in suicide amongst people with major mental illness and one theory is that that is because of the way people with major mental illnesses are treated by psychiatry and because of the stigma they face in society at large - they are the least likely section of the public to get jobs for example.

It is also theorised that because of the psychiatric link of suicide to mental illness, for many people who become mentally ill, suicide is seen as an inevitability. So in a sense it is a side effect of psychiatry.

It might be easier to understand if one looks at teenage self-harm. The rise in teenage self-harm is seen as partly an unforeseen side effect of preventative measures to alleviate teen depression - so by raising awareness of depression and self-harm to encourage teens to seek help, it has portrayed self-harm as part of the 'performance' of teen depression which then means that if, as a teen you feel depressed, you think you should self-harm as a sign. Teen school dramas are one source of reinforcement of this idea. Amongst the 14-15 year old population in the UK there has been an explosion of self-harm as almost a normal part of growing up.

It is in one sense true that 'suicide' is a modern construction of self-killing. Self-killing has been going on in human society for aeons for a variety of reasons, some noble, most despised.

If you are interested in ideas about how we 'perform' ourselves, Judith Butler is the person to read.

 

[hope]

In a country where suicide is presented more, not AS looked down on, and a larger element of society, Japan, the rate of suicide is significantly higher.

Conversely... if you had never met a person before your suicidal thoughts would be greatly reduced; invention would come before self-immolation.

 

[snowqueen]

Hi hope,

haven't seen you before so welcome. Yes - that kind of demonstrates the fact that it's more likely to be culturally produced than a product of mental illness.

 

[merzbau]

it's possible that the rate of suicide is related to a widespread lack of meaning in western society.
you could point to the artificial environments of cities, the industrial revolution, the reformation/waning of religious belief, etc.

i think ever since humans developed agriculture, there has been a separation and a flight from the natural world that has left us without grounding of some kind. people have great difficulty when they can't relate to the natural world; their emotional states seem alien and the socialisation we inherit causes us to repress natural elements of our behavior that act as buffers for the psyche.
this is mostly conjecture, though.

 

[Mars]

suicide is the dead end of reasoning that people end with as far as I can discern. When all you have is a hammer, everything begins to look like a nail. That's my take on the situation, an ending of recognition of choice. I look at children and they don't know anything at the start and they are expected to deal with everything almost at once in one form or another, at times I wonder how an established adult would cope with such dramatic changes/experiences. A scarily large amount don't if old world accounts are to be taken seriously.

So in finality, a change in expected occurrences are enough to cause a person to completely disassociate. Thus no capability to engage and experience.

suicide for me would be to die for a cause. Considering the fact that I would not be able to monitor/guard my perceived cause after dying for it would render the death meaningless, unless a deal was struck with beings of integrity and such was the price.

In a way My avatar represents to me suicidal tendencies, its like contemplating the hypothetical scenario of what would happen if i die. since the teddy bears are meant to be all cute and cuddly, these are obviously not and thus scary or as I like to say full of new concepts/ideas/information.

fun fun fun

 

[Latro]

it's possible that the rate of suicide is related to a widespread lack of meaning in western society.
you could point to the artificial environments of cities, the industrial revolution, the reformation/waning of religious belief, etc.

i think ever since humans developed agriculture, there has been a separation and a flight from the natural world that has left us without grounding of some kind. people have great difficulty when they can't relate to the natural world; their emotional states seem alien and the socialisation we inherit causes us to repress natural elements of our behavior that act as buffers for the psyche.
this is mostly conjecture, though.

I agree with this, and this is probably part of why hiking is such a good activity IMO. Especially hiking without a highly specific destination. Just going out and wandering, and chatting with friends...great stuff. I'm looking forward to a longer trip this summer...gah, now I'm impatient. Dammit

 

[Mars]

I agree with this, and this is probably part of why hiking is such a good activity IMO. Especially hiking without a highly specific destination. Just going out and wandering, and chatting with friends...great stuff. I'm looking forward to a longer trip this summer...gah, now I'm impatient. Dammit

I'd wonder if going on a hike allows you to see a place with an unmolested environment, allowing you to see beauty/order without coming into existence through controlled actions. Thus assuaging those suicidal tendencies through association with choiceless existence.

wonderful contemplations arise from this forum.

 

[snowqueen]

I'd wonder if going on a hike allows you to see a place with an unmolested environment, allowing you to see beauty/order without coming into existence through controlled actions. Thus assuaging those suicidal tendencies through association with choiceless existence.

wonderful contemplations arise from this forum.

There is a really beautiful book by Richard Mabey called 'Nature Cure' which describes one man's journey from depression to health through engaging with nature.

I'm currently reading The Wild Places by Robert MacFarlane which is also an incredible read (but a bit frustrating because I just want to get out there). I was recently introduced to birdwatching and find it unbelievably satisfying. I have to say I had always avoided it, imagining it to be largely a tickbox activity like trainspotting - but that is 'twitching' apparently. Birdwatching is simply taking time to observe birds in their habitat and sharing it with them for a while. It's particularly amazing to watch raptors - not surprising for an INTP of course! I also love crows, rooks and ravens.

 

[Gluon the Ferengi]

In American society, white people both male and female commit suicide more than any other group.

Suicide seems to go beyond/economic social class.

I suppose that first one needs a sense of self-power and self-agency.

One who is completely enslaved or subjugated by society, job, factory, master is unlikely to commit suicide. Some level of personal empowerment is necessary.

Then, it seems that one must be relatively assured of their daily survival. When one is forced to struggle to survive, it is difficult to seriously consider suicide. It goes against the logic of every action taken in every day. It is to throw out everything one has worked to exhaustion for every day.
It is thus less likely that someone at the subsistence level would commit suicide while a more affluent individual would jump.

If one is too busy surviving, there's not even any time to ponder whether or not life is worth living. Survival provides purpose at the most basic level.

Finally, I agree with those who guess that lack of purpose or widespread isolation in modern societies is a root cause.

 

[Tyria]

Personality disorders are just a biological or developmental difference causing someone to not act the way we think they should.

Once again, it's just a label.

Explain how just because you don't act like most humans means you have a disorder.

Maybe insane people are actually sane, we just don't see it that way.

I'm not saying i believe this, but it is a possibility.

Explain how i'm close minded, but most importantly, try staying on topic.

While 'personality disorder' is a label, I don't see how you can dismiss it so easily. Are you talking about every single personality disorder or only a few?

 

[snowqueen]

While 'personality disorder' is a label, I don't see how you can dismiss it so easily. Are you talking about every single personality disorder or only a few?

I think the argument against personality disorders is that if you read the psychiatric manuals (DSM-4 for example) which are lists of the signs and symptoms of 'disorders' the ones for PDs are essentially lists of personality characteristics rather than symptoms like those for mental illness (those are also highly contestable but that's another conversation). They are essentially descriptions of people we don't like or 'nasty' or 'difficult' or 'inadequate' people.

What the nature of the 'disorder' is, is not clear. It's under psychiatry so that implies it's treatable by medicine - like mental illness - but it's not. So what is it doing under the psychiatric gaze? PD was most used as a diagnosis in America originally and that is probably because in the US psychiatrists are more likely to also be doing psychoanalysis or psychodynamic psychotherapy (in the UK it is done by clinical psychologists and psychiatrists largely give out meds). Analysis and therapy is based on Freudian etc. theories which suggest that the person's personality is linked to childhood experiences and so the personality is 'damaged' which implies it could be mended.

When you examine it you realise it is a closed system dependent on buying into the core idea of personality/childhood etc. which is highly contestable.

Once you start to critique that idea then the whole notion of 'personality disorder' becomes suspect.

If you look up narcissistic personality disorder for example, you could also just say they are nasty self-centred bastards best avoided.