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Star War: Rise of Skywalker

Cognisant

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Spoilers are in the spoiler below.

3/5 it's a movie, it's not a good movie but then that was never really going to happen after The Last Jedi, it is good in the sense that it patches up some of TLJ's mistakes and brings the whole series to a more-or-less satisfying conclusion.

This is mainly to save you having to go see the movie yourself.

Rey is Palpatine's granddaughter which neatly explains why she's so incredibly gifted with the force, assuming you don't think about it and start wondering why Palpatine's direct progeny weren't also as gifted, or who fucked him.

The Holdo maneuver is specifically called out as a million-to-one long-shot and when it's proposed the idea gets shot down so fast so hard that I think I saw a flash of text on screen that said "and we must never speak of it again".

Rey and Ren can not only speak through the force they can also touch each other, give each other items and have telepresence battles, which is neat but doesn't explain the lack of thermal detonator hot potato that would logically transpire if these two actually wanted to kill each other.

Fin meets an attractive black woman who was also a storm-trooper that betrayed the first order, later he (now a newly minted general) orders Rose to return to a transport while he and new lady go on a "suicide" mission together which is probably the biggest kick to the cunt I've seen in any movie.

Leia dies, for real this time. Also Chewie and C3-Po die but they get better, could have done without that imo.

Poe has a hot ex-girlfriend, the funniest scene in the movie is when he looks at her during the final celebration like "you want some of this" and she rebuffs him through body language and he's just like "welp fair enough".

"They can fly now" the friend I was with asked me about this and I explained it by saying decades of war created an economic downturn in the galaxy, hence why in the prequels everyone had really fancy gear and ships, in the original trilogy the tech was more industrial/utilitarian and in the Disney movies all the Rebel stuff is rusting hulks and relics while all the New Order stuff is kinda shitty like it's a cheap knock-off of Clone Wars era gear.

The Knights of Ren ship is AMAZING imo, the engine glows red and trails smoke for NO REASON other than Ren and his knights are are a bunch of fucking edgelords, it could only have been better if they were called out on it in universe.

The big finale has Ren/Ben bring Ray back from the dead via force healing, I like how that came full circle.

Palpatine's fleet of doom has dick cannons. Dick. Cannons. And they're destroyed by shooting the dick cannons thereby causing an explosion that takes out the main reactor, I was hoping they would do that ramming thing again and make one of the star destroyers ram into the back of another with its DICK CANNON. Glorious.
 

Marbles

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I'll have to see it, but I haven't got my hopes up. I actually preferred The Last Jedi to The Force Awakens. The Force Awakens felt too formulaic, imitating all the elements of the original films too closely. Luke's washed up condition in The Last Jedi was strange, but I always assumed he would return in some form, in a redemptive way.

I wish Disney had stuck with Ryan Johnson, or chosen a new director as was the plan. I'll read your review once I've seen the film, probably some time after Christmas. What did you think of The Force Awakens?
 

Animekitty

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The Force Awakens 5/10
The Last Jedi 2/10
The Rise of Skywalker 7/10
 

Jennywocky

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I liked The Force awakens when it came out but it was too derivative of A New Hope -- I accepted that because I felt it was trying to bridge between old and new fans, and the next film would kick things in to something more original.

I disliked The Last Jedi when it came out because it blatantly killed a bunch of threads from the first film, leaving nothing for a later film to wrap up -- awful approach to collaborative storytelling. Some of the characters did not seem to act according to type and some plots seemed dumb/irrelevant. However, I have rewatched the film a number of time, and there's actually a lot of nuance occurring in some of the plot lines. I even grasped why Rose did what seemed like such a stupid thing at the time with Finn near the ending. So I have grown to appreciate it, even if I would have done something different. It also did a lot of interesting things with Kylo and Rey, including Kylo choosing a truly existential approach and becoming a full-fledged individual unbeholden to the past -- their scenes are totally the best part of that film.

So, getting to The Rise of Skywalker -- I despise this film on first view. It retcons or jettisons just about everything from the second film and even ignores some of the first film that Abrams himself made. The editing/pace sucks for the first hour and it's all irrelevant claptrap plotting It's full of a bunch of what amounts to fanfic resolutions that don't track with prior character development. It rehashes stuff that just needs to die.

(hey, since we've killed two death stars and a planet-killer, let's put planet killers on every ship THIS time to make it even bigger!)

It brings back a bad guy who should have been introduced a film or two back if this was the direction they were going. It betrays Kylo's character arc without a proper catalyst and has a really stupid climax/post-climax that seemed just tossed in to appease fan shipping. The fleet resolution is a deus ex machina. Old characters like Rose who were prominent (for good or ill) are just dropped. New characters are added but don't really resonate much.

I guess I liked the line at the end that ties in with the title, but much of the film feels like pabulum. Like, I'm stunned and shocked at how awful it is, and emotionally and logically unsatisfying. I rank it barely above The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, which to me comprise the dregs of Star Wars films.

The Death Star sequence was the best of the film (and it's ruined at the end because of the false character arc resolution based on prior films) -- but it was cool and has the best fight sequence. Also, Driver and Ridley are great, regardless. I have grown to really love Adam Driver as an actor, he's really talented.
 

Cognisant

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I even grasped why Rose did what seemed like such a stupid thing at the time with Finn near the ending.
Because her sister sacrificed herself and she doesn't want to repeat the past?
I get how that makes sense for her character but not how she was able to intercept him or why doing so didn't kill them both or why the First Order didn't just shoot them, sure they're downed pilots but this was an extermination mission.

It also did a lot of interesting things with Kylo and Rey, including Kylo choosing a truly existential approach and becoming a full-fledged individual unbeholden to the past -- their scenes are totally the best part of that film.
I never understood Kylo, with Anakin it was clear that he deeply loved Padme and the fear of losing her and the council refusing to recognize him as a Jedi Master (an organization he had pledged his life to, fought for and has to conceal his relationship from) went a long way to turning him, then their "attack" on Palpatine convinced him he had to pick a side and just like Rose losing her sister after losing his mother he wasn't going to risk losing Padme.

Kylo was "attacked" by his uncle and apparently killed him, okay, so how did that turn into joining Snoke and trying to kill his parents?
 

Animekitty

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Ray saw in her lightsaber vision Kylo and the knights of Ren destroy the Jedi temple.
There is so much backstory that needed development not just allusion to it.
JJ ABRAMS needed to write the entire script of all three movies imo.
And taken his time with it. Fan service was way too high.
Kylo said I will finish what You started to Vaders Helmet. :starwars:
 

Cognisant

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Kylo said I will finish what You started to Vaders Helmet.
That's what I meant about coming full circle, because in a way he did.

That Rey can do it too and did it first somewhat undermines the gravitas but whatever.
 

Jennywocky

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I even grasped why Rose did what seemed like such a stupid thing at the time with Finn near the ending.
Because her sister sacrificed herself and she doesn't want to repeat the past?
I get how that makes sense for her character but not how she was able to intercept him or why doing so didn't kill them both or why the First Order didn't just shoot them, sure they're downed pilots but this was an extermination mission.
Yeah, I'm not like Rose -- for me, if everyone is going to die, I would say it's worth one person crashing into the cannon to save everyone rather than waiting around for some deus ex machina to show up. So her choice pissed me off -- so stupid -- until I rewatched and then really got that her sister died on the needless suicide run and she'd rather have her sister than a dead hero in her life. (It's still not comparable because they did NOT have to attack the dreadnaught for the fleet to survive, it was just a really stupid strategic move by Poe against direct orders... but okay, whatever.)

But yeah, it did not resolve the other points -- logistically, how did she manage to catch up with Finn when she was zig-zagging and he was taking a straight line? How did she hit him while not getting shot crossing directly across fire, after they were taking out everyone else earlier? How did Finn manage to reach her, have a 'special moment' and then drag her back to base (albeit most of that was when Luke appeared, so they were distracted "firing all weapons at that man") without getting shot? Those are the mechanical problems which aren't really debatable, you either just excuse them or not.

The other item had been a story problem, which is to me infrastructure / architectural support ("Do the characters do things that make sense to them and to any average person?") So that part is what I better understood, although the rest is still wrong. I tend to be bothered more by structural issues (story and character issues) because they undermine everything if the structure fails; the rest are external issues that are annoying but don't necessarily ruin everything.

It also did a lot of interesting things with Kylo and Rey, including Kylo choosing a truly existential approach and becoming a full-fledged individual unbeholden to the past -- their scenes are totally the best part of that film.
I never understood Kylo, with Anakin it was clear that he deeply loved Padme and the fear of losing her and the council refusing to recognize him as a Jedi Master (an organization he had pledged his life to, fought for and has to conceal his relationship from) went a long way to turning him, then their "attack" on Palpatine convinced him he had to pick a side and just like Rose losing her sister after losing his mother he wasn't going to risk losing Padme.

Kylo was "attacked" by his uncle and apparently killed him, okay, so how did that turn into joining Snoke and trying to kill his parents?
That was just the crux point, not the bulk of the work. Kylo had already turned. The movies never really go into that, it is just the straw that broke the camel's back. From Kylo's reaction to Han through the first film, it really feels like he felt his dad didn't give a crap about him. There was something less so about his mom (because he hesitates shooting at her in TLJ and seems to feel remorse over the other tie fighters doing it), but Leia says she felt like she lost him "once she sent him away." Then his uncle tried to kill him because (as Kylo perceived, maybe with Snoke's influence) that Luke was afraid of his power... which he was. (But not to take it for himself.) For whatever reason, Kylo took her sending him away as a rejection of him as a person. He obviously had a lot of anger and resentment towards both parents, but we never learn the specifics. However, we can easily imagine Han's failings and perhaps some of Leia's (if she was focused on other matters + remained as acerbic as in the past).

But it's still the same story as Anakin. The Jedi treat Anakin both as a savior and as a child, rather than changing gears as he ages and treating him like a young adult. He's confused and torn. Palpatine treats him with respect and gives him worthy tasks to do for him, tasks of importance. Who wouldn't respond to that? The same thing happens with Kylo, no doubt -- he's rejected by his parents from his perspective, he's got power, he's treated like an apprentice even if he is more powerful than his master (possibly), who fears and resents him for it, and so of course he's going to listen to the whispers for that initial rebellion. It's just what Palpatine did with Anakin.

But it wasn't what i really meant about his journey. In TLJ, we see Kylo rise into manhood, embrace his own autonomy regardless of his parents or Snoke, and forge his own (albeit lonely) destiny. Maybe I'll copy more in here I posted on another forum, but he had reached a point where he no longer wanted or needed redemption because he was existentially mature, had stopped reacting to the past, and with that destruction of the past was creating his own future.

Then Abrams basically didn't like that, so he ditched it all, had Kylo "turn good" in the face of all that past character development for no comparable reason, and "redeemed' him despite Kylo seeming very much like he no longer needed redemption. It's not much different from those shitty Christian films where atheists and agnostics at core are really miserable in their lack of God, so usually in the end there's some form of redemption where they come back to Jesus... because everyone would if they just really understood Jesus and were honest about how empty they are. it's an attitude that can't accept that people can create meaning in their own lives without needing a higher figure to give them a place in a story.

(See? It's the same thing with Rey too! TLJ told us that Rey's parents were nobodies and not worthy of her, so she was free to be herself and whoever she wanted to become, rather than wasting her life letting someone else define her. The film even ends that way, with the stable boy using the Force and then standing in a jedi stance... your BLOODLINE DOES NOT MATTER, your family does not matter. Anyone can be a hero, anyone can have abilities to use for good. But naw, we have this retcon now where Rey's parents actually loved her -- a clumsy retcon in implementation -- and so now she was someone of special lineage and her role in the story was defined by someone else again. She's a good person because her parents actually cared about her; she's has a place in the story because of her lineage. The film doesn't really even explore that dichotomy in detail, of her "newfound lineage" (considering what it is), it's just another hackneyed plot twist that doesn't match with the second film, because Abrams wanted to tell the same damn stories that have been repeatedly told in these films because people are all the same, etc. I hope all these special families are truly dead now, so we never have to hear about them ever again.)

IOW, the first two films at least can fit together, even if Johnson stupidly snipped some of the plot threads short and let the third film hanging. Abrams refused to follow any of the arcs as generated in the second film and even ignored where parts of the first film were leading, to just rehash "REturn of the Jedi." Because he can't seem to create anything new on his own, it's always a rehash of something else. (That was one of the problems with TFA; the overall plot points / devices were all from ANH.) That's one of the big problems here but it's kind of a mess in every direction.
 

onesteptwostep

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Looks like I'll be waiting for the torrents to come out. Arigato Jenny (b'')b
 

Cognisant

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they did NOT have to attack the dreadnaught for the fleet to survive, it was just a really stupid strategic move by Poe against direct orders... but okay, whatever.
Not that stupid really the dreadnought was described as something akin to a WWII capital battleship like the USS Iowa or the Bismarck, a "fleet killer", taking it out for the cost of a few fighters and bombers is a major strategic and morale victory. Sure it could be argued their forces are limited and they can't afford any losses but then again as I understand it their equipment is largely donated by rebel sympathizers and their personnel are all volunteers, so they need to win victories like that to keep the donations and volunteers coming or otherwise they'll just fade into irrelevance.
 

Jennywocky

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they did NOT have to attack the dreadnaught for the fleet to survive, it was just a really stupid strategic move by Poe against direct orders... but okay, whatever.
Not that stupid really the dreadnought was described as something akin to a WWII capital battleship like the USS Iowa or the Bismarck, a "fleet killer", taking it out for the cost of a few fighters and bombers is a major strategic and morale victory. Sure it could be argued their forces are limited and they can't afford any losses but then again as I understand it their equipment is largely donated by rebel sympathizers and their personnel are all volunteers, so they need to win victories like that to keep the donations and volunteers coming or otherwise they'll just fade into irrelevance.
Does it matter if they are all dead? the tradeoff still is not worth. By the end of the film, despite having destroyed a dreadnaught... no one arrives to save them. they are left to die. It wasn't strategically the best place to attempt that move, it was an impulsive decision.

The other lousy part of that move is that their general specifically told them not to; Poe ignored Leia, and so did the entire fleet which ended up dying in the process. Why have a chain of command if you are not going to respect it? It wasn't like they were ignoring some podunk inexperienced commander; this was Leia, with years of experience, rank, a former noble title, etc, and who had helped destroy the Emperor's Empire. She is typically beloved and respected and considered to be wise by those following her.

the movie of course supports that interpretation because Poe's character arc in that film is moving from an impulsive guy who thinks blowing things up at every opportunity to a more leadership role who thinks through the costs and worries more about preserving those following him, using their sacrifices more strategically. They make a big deal of it when he explains to Finn what he is perceiving.

Ah for the days when characters actually had arcs, and arcs that were consistent... even if simple at times.
 

Cognisant

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The other lousy part of that move is that their general specifically told them not to; Poe ignored Leia, and so did the entire fleet which ended up dying in the process. Why have a chain of command if you are not going to respect it? It wasn't like they were ignoring some podunk inexperienced commander; this was Leia, with years of experience, rank, a former noble title, etc, and who had helped destroy the Emperor's Empire. She is typically beloved and respected and considered to be wise by those following her.
A professional military derives its chain of command from the nation that created it, in other words you can't ignore your general's orders because your home nation dictates that you are legally obligated to follow them. However the rebels have no home nation, all their gear is donated and all their personnel are volunteers, Leia is called a general but she doesn't really have that kind of authority. Instead she's more like a pirate captain, at times pirates were able to form temporary fleets and armies when sufficient need/opportunity arose but they were always an amalgamation of independant forces (if not individuals) rather than one unified force.

Leia didn't have to go through Poe to contact the fleet, she could have ordered them to retreat and without the bombers Poe would have been forced to retreat as well but that's not what happened, they all ignored her and followed Poe's orders.
 

sushi

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without Plagueis , the whole movie is crap.

I dont want a recycled old villain .

it seems like a fart with Palpetine trolling newbies.
 

Cognisant

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It's a shame that Palpetine's motivations are purely plot convenience and half his lines are recycled from other better movies.
 

Jennywocky

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The other lousy part of that move is that their general specifically told them not to; Poe ignored Leia, and so did the entire fleet which ended up dying in the process. Why have a chain of command if you are not going to respect it? It wasn't like they were ignoring some podunk inexperienced commander; this was Leia, with years of experience, rank, a former noble title, etc, and who had helped destroy the Emperor's Empire. She is typically beloved and respected and considered to be wise by those following her.
A professional military derives its chain of command from the nation that created it, in other words you can't ignore your general's orders because your home nation dictates that you are legally obligated to follow them. However the rebels have no home nation, all their gear is donated and all their personnel are volunteers, Leia is called a general but she doesn't really have that kind of authority. Instead she's more like a pirate captain, at times pirates were able to form temporary fleets and armies when sufficient need/opportunity arose but they were always an amalgamation of independant forces (if not individuals) rather than one unified force.

Leia didn't have to go through Poe to contact the fleet, she could have ordered them to retreat and without the bombers Poe would have been forced to retreat as well but that's not what happened, they all ignored her and followed Poe's orders.
Star Wars doesn't bother to break it down into the level of nuance you do. After all, Leia strips Poe of his rank when he disobeys -- so obviously she has authority and her replacements are supposed to be given the same authority as well. So if you go by what the film establishes (not what your historical research generally shows about pirates), then yeah, actually, they needed to all go through Leia in this case.

without Plagueis , the whole movie is crap. I dont want a recycled old villain . it seems like a fart with Palpetine trolling newbies.
It's a shame that Palpetine's motivations are purely plot convenience and half his lines are recycled from other better movies.
Pretty much.

Abrams managed a pretty bold feat -- he not only ruined this film, he managed to undermine the first two films were are arguably half-decent... and one of those was his.

I blame Chris Terrio more (he got a writing award for Argo in 2012 or so, it's a very different kind of film and based on a book I think; but pretty much all his superhero stuff has ended up as crap. Why they dragged him into this, I'll never know. "Hey, want to ruin Star Wars?" Abrams can add heart when he works with a decent writer, and when he works with a bad writer, his films suck. He also thinks random nostalgia is somehow the redeeming quality of a film. Now we have a remake of A New Hope, and now this shoddy remake of Return of the Jedi.)

I think bringing back Palpatine in this way to simply remake RotJ was dumb. If they want to bring his influence back, there are many ways a dead Emperor's influence could "live on" -- and if Snoke is what the film tells us he is in about 7 seconds of passing camera frame and dialogue, then they could have reintroduced him, revealed him to be what he was, and used that to lead into the true villain. (Instead of wasting an hour or more chasing macguffins.)

Or they could have simply spent the film dealing with what Rey and Kylo Ren were going to do with their lives now that they were free to be whatever they wanted. But nope. Reset all characters back to the good/evil trope so they can play out the same sorry story we've already gotten multiple times.
 

sushi

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not really related to first topic, Yoda gives the worst advice (in my perspective)

"do or do not , there is no try" he means give 100% or nothing

i dont think this is accurate or good advice for a noob

trying is the first step to doing, doing is a deeper engagement/investment of trying. to not try or take the first step is to completely fail.
 

Jennywocky

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not really related to first topic, Yoda gives the worst advice (in my perspective)

"do or do not , there is no try" he means give 100% or nothing

i dont think this is accurate or good advice for a noob

trying is the first step to doing, doing is a deeper engagement/investment of trying. to not try or take the first step is to completely fail.
I'm not particularly enamoured with Yoda, but I took it as just to not attempt something half-heartedly. "I'll try" can indicate someone who lacks commitment or doesn't necessarily believe in what they are doing.
 

sushi

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not really related to first topic, Yoda gives the worst advice (in my perspective)

"do or do not , there is no try" he means give 100% or nothing

i dont think this is accurate or good advice for a noob

trying is the first step to doing, doing is a deeper engagement/investment of trying. to not try or take the first step is to completely fail.
I'm not particularly enamoured with Yoda, but I took it as just to not attempt something half-heartedly. "I'll try" can indicate someone who lacks commitment or doesn't necessarily believe in what they are doing.
yea, but you know a half hearted arse try or weak try is always better than doing nothing and just stuck in procrastination, thinking and doubt.

trying, is an attempt on something you are unsure whether you will fail or succeed, it is akin to taking the first step. After several tries, you begin to devote more effort into it and it becomes doing.
 

Jennywocky

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not really related to first topic, Yoda gives the worst advice (in my perspective)

"do or do not , there is no try" he means give 100% or nothing

i dont think this is accurate or good advice for a noob

trying is the first step to doing, doing is a deeper engagement/investment of trying. to not try or take the first step is to completely fail.
I'm not particularly enamoured with Yoda, but I took it as just to not attempt something half-heartedly. "I'll try" can indicate someone who lacks commitment or doesn't necessarily believe in what they are doing.
yea, but you know a half hearted arse try or weak try is always better than doing nothing and just stuck in procrastination, thinking and doubt.

trying, is an attempt on something you are unsure whether you will fail or succeed, it is akin to taking the first step. After several tries, you begin to devote more effort into it and it becomes doing.
I don't think we disagree.
 

Marbles

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Meh...

The Force Awakens: 4/10
The Last Jedi: 6/10
The Rise Of Skywalker: 5/10

Such a good universe, what a wasted opportunity. 4D was pretty cool, though.
 
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