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Speed of light vs gravity

Xel

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I heard that if the sun were to vanish it would take the same amount of time (about 8 minuets) for the light vanish on earth as well as the earth to spin out of the sun's gravity. Why exactly is gravity close to or is the same speed as the speed of light? Are the two connected somehow? I'm trying to learn more about physics.
 

fullerene

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light speed is.... weird. Physically, nothing travels faster than the speed of light. Not even information. That includes fields will still persist, for a time, even if the object which creates them were to vanish. That goes for electric fields too... and probably all the other kinds (though I don't know for sure).
 

Hawkeye

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well apparently, the speed of light is the top end of the speed limit in our Universe (excluding the expasion of space which happens faster than this speed).

I remember being shown a thesis that claimed the speed of Gravity was practically 'instant'. They claimed to have calculated it based on gravitational forces from the sun using it's actual and apparent position. The results differed from what they had estimated (based on the speed of light).

They got a result of approximately 93 million miles per second which is far greater than the speed of light.

I also remember the paper being dated 1998 and since I've heard nothing about this so called "Speed of Gravity" since I'd assume that they must have been proven wrong.
 

Malt

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Regardless, when you have a black hole it is strong enough to even overcome the speed of light. The time lag of is just how long light takes to get from the sun to earth. We always see the past because anthing that we see has travelled some distance and therefore taken time to reach us. The only reason we are not aware of this when walking around on earth is because the distances are so short and the speed of light is so fast that it appears to be instant.
 

Hawkeye

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Regardless, when you have a black hole it is strong enough to even overcome the speed of light. The time lag of is just how long light takes to get from the sun to earth. We always see the past because anthing that we see has travelled some distance and therefore taken time to reach us. The only reason we are not aware of this when walking around on earth is because the distances are so short and the speed of light is so fast that it appears to be instant.

Hmmm, I wouldn't say it overcomes the speed of light. The speed of light remains the same it's just that time distorts to compensate.
 

walfin

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http://www.csa.com/discoveryguides/gravity/overview.php

This was in 2002. Basically, it's a proof (still disputed) that the speed of gravity is between 0.8 to 1.2 times the speed of light. Apparently special relativity also predicts the speed of gravity (gravitons) to be the same as the speed of light (photons), which is the speed of all massless particles.
 

warryer

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Yea Malt that is an odd thought. I actually just had this conversation a few days ago- kinda strange.

From what I've understood about light is that time ceases to exist at "light" speed. And anything with any kind of mass cannot reach light speed because the energy required would be infinite (think exponential curve). So this tells me that light photons (or waves or w/e the fuck light is) have some kind of mass attached to them to account for the time. Or perhaps pure energy has a mass equivalent demonstrated by e=mc^2? I'm trying to learn some more here too.

I would also say that the speed of information is the fastest- so fast that it could be considered instantaneous. I remember reading/hearing about some experiment where one particle was moved and it's sister particle some distance away instantaneously performed the exact same action.
 

spoirier

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I heard that if the sun were to vanish it would take the same amount of time (about 8 minuets) for the light vanish on earth as well as the earth to spin out of the sun's gravity. Why exactly is gravity close to or is the same speed as the speed of light? Are the two connected somehow? I'm trying to learn more about physics.

Energy conservation, once properly expressed (not naively) is a theorem of general relativity. The mass of the sun cannot just vanish. It has to be moved to somewhere else, and it cannot be moved faster than light. But it is true that whatever the way this mass is moved, the changes to the gravitational field precisely go at the speed of light.

I remember being shown a thesis that claimed the speed of Gravity was practically 'instant'. They claimed to have calculated it based on gravitational forces from the sun using it's actual and apparent position.
This argument is flawed, based on the same mistake as a mistake between phase velocity and group velocity for waves.
Indeed the gravitational "force" of the sun, points to where the sun would simultaneously be (with only a very little difference related to the emission of gravitational waves), but this should not be confused with the speed of changes in the gravitational field if the sun suddendly behaved differently.

when you have a black hole it is strong enough to even overcome the speed of light
With black holes, gravity does not overcome the speed of light.
The gravitational field of a black hole does not come from inside the black hole. It is there outside the black hole because it was already there outside the black hole in the first place, and there is no reason for it to change.
 

Jah

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Does that imply that gravity might work backwards in time ? ;P


Damn, I have to learn physics, quantum physics and general relativity is kinda hard to grasp without it.
 

spoirier

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Gravity does not work backwards in time. You just need to remember that group velocity and phase velocity are 2 different things and should not be mistaken. For the gravitational field, group velocity is c (following the actual light propagation in curved space-time), but the direction of the gravitational "force" by the sun in its natural movement, is somehow the same idea as phase velocity, and thus its measurement does not tell you anything about the speed at which sudden moves of matter impacts changes of the gravitational field, which remains c.
 

Bårris

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No, gravity does not work backwards in time. The hypothetical gravitons have zero mass. In other words they are bradyons.
For a particle to move backwards in time or in other words, move faster than light, they have to have imaginary mass (their squared mass is negative). We call these particles tachyons. Tachyons have never been observed.
 

Vrecknidj

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Mass bends space. Light travels in straight lines. Straight lines, from alternative perspectives, are curved lines. When there's enough mass in a small enough region, the space is bent sufficiently so that, from far away, light seems as if it moves in non-straight lines, therefore it seems as if it moves at a speed other than the speed of light.

Anyway, there are other issues as well. Further, there are other issues, like what happens when a 5th dimensional object moves in such a way that, from a 4th dimensional perspective, it appears to traverse more space than it should be able to in the allotted time.

http://www.wimp.com/tendimensions/

Dave
 
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