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Solipsism

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"Solipsism is the philosophical idea that only one's own mind is sure to exist. The term comes from the Latin solus (alone) and ipse (self). Solipsism as an epistemological position holds that knowledge of anything outside one's own mind is unsure. The external world and other minds cannot be known, and might not exist outside the mind."

-Wikipedia

Seems valid enough for me, any objections? ;)
 

own8ge

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egocentric predicament ^^
 

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While the basic premise of solipsism is valid, it doesn't actually get you anywhere.
Exactly. We don't have to be sure of anything outside ourselves. Our selves do get these impressions and these impressions congeal into memories plus more impressions. We can process with only what's inside our minds or try out these impressions. If these trials prove worthy, our minds are filled with more complexities. Gradually it becomes worthwhile to act on these complexities if only to keep the ball of life rolling.

These impressions can fool us too. In that case when we try out our impressions, we get bad results. This results in our rejection of the supposition that the world is that way.
 

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I hope this is a joke. http://bit.ly/XSJMdH
You fool!

I'm sorry, I didn't realize the term meant something different when the words were combined than if the words were defined individually and then combined. So that's just another way of saying the same thing then.


While the basic premise of solipsism is valid, it doesn't actually get you anywhere.

Well it seems to get you into a mindset in which you are no longer sure if there is an outside world or if the people around you are actually real or not. If they turn out to be illusions then it raises the question of who you are then. Since you are presumably the only being that is actually "real," what does that make you? Does it make you god? What happens if you suicide then? Will you just wake up in another world because you are immortal? If this were to actually happen, your world view would completely shatter, you would know that you can't die and would probably act very differently from that moment on. Perhaps you would regain old memories that confirm your godliness and gain your old powers back. Who knows? I wouldn't kill myself of though, since I don't know what will happen.
 

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I always assumed Descartes was an idiot for the cogito ergo sum business because that surmising doesn't really define or substantiate the subject, as it purports to do. Also, what does thinking mean?! Can AI think? Can animals think? Where do you draw the line?

In dreams one would presume personhood, based on Descartes' logic, but that would be incorrect because it's merely some noetic conjuring. Where's cogito ergo sum's genius now?!

The whole deduction is logically juvenile and circular anyway. It might prove serviceable for teen movies and intro philosophy courses but little else. Descartes should have stuck to math and left the more serious topics to the big kids. :p
 

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I tend to detachedly observe people watching them go about their business. The weirdest experience is going from just looking at them as moving objects to imagining that each and every one one of these moving objects have unique and complex lives of their own, and in those lives encounter even more people with their complex lives and so on.

And there I am taking a momentary glimpse into their lives, at the point where our paths cross but soon will part and then I'll never see them again.
 

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I always assumed Descartes was an idiot for the cogito ergo sum business because that surmising doesn't really define or substantiate the subject, as it purports to do. Also, what does thinking mean?! Can AI think? Can animals think? Where do you draw the line?

In dreams one would presume personhood, based on Descartes' logic, but that would be incorrect because it's merely some noetic conjuring. Where's cogito ergo sum's genius now?!

The whole deduction is logically juvenile and circular anyway. It might prove serviceable for teen movies and intro philosophy courses but little else. Descartes should have stuck to math and left the more serious topics to the big kids. :p

Well, the idea is you can't know if anybody other than yourself actually does any thinking. Just because you might like it to be that way, or because you might intuit it or something, doesn't make it true. Solipsism is simply saying what is, all you perceive is electrical signals within your brain so in a way you could say that all you perceive is your own mind/imagination. There is no guarantee that there is any outside world or if you are perceiving said world accurately.

Now before you go saying that for there to be electrical signals in your brain there must be an outside world I must explain it a bit more. I simply used that idea because it is easy to understand but you could easily replace the brain with a soul or something similar. Perhaps you are just one being existing in some world of nothingness but within your mind you are living on Earth, imagining this life of yours. Maybe that is god? Who knows?

You used the term noetic conjuring to describe dreams but why not use the same term to describe life? It is all electrical signals in your brain, remember? You are imagining life, it's true.

You call the logic juvenile and circular? How so?
 

snafupants

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Well, the idea is you can't know if anybody other than yourself actually does any thinking.
You can't know the you part that supposedly does the thinking. Cogito ergo sum, as Kierkegaard and others have attested, presumes the "I" and proves nothing worthwhile.

There is no guarantee that there is any outside world or if you are perceiving said world accurately.

The dream example drives home my previous point.

Why do you presuppose you though?

I'm confused why people repeatedly commit this error.

You used the term noetic conjuring to describe dreams but why not use the same term to describe life?

Because people usually assume dreams are as real as life (as they are unfolding) when dreams do not take place in corporal reality. The dream environment is not strictly tangible.

Some jagoff could aver something like cogito ergo sum but the dream persona is one level of abstraction away from conventionally accepted reality.

You'd be wrong if you said cogito ergo sum during a dream. In waking or sleeping consciousness, though, cogito ergo sum doesn't prove anything because it presupposes the "I" part.

You call the logic juvenile and circular? How so?
It's circular and tautological because it starts and ends by neglecting the "I" part.

Cogito ergo sum adds nothing to its original postulate.
 

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Snafu:
So, the cogito argument fails to establish this "I" that do the doubting. I agree with you, but the point is perhaps rather that this something that doubts exists and that this is something the doubter can be absolutely certain of without, at this point, making any further inquires into the nature of the doubter and what can be said to properly belong to it.
To depart from Decart, as he seems to take this more or less for granted (at least from my readings of his mediations), we can say that we indeed have a sense of some "I" to which we enfold all of particular experience, and thoughts. For Kant I believe this is explained by the faculty of our understanding, as opposed to our sensibility (our capacity to acquire representations of objects), which synthesize, a priori, all scattered, or fragmented experience/thoughts with the result being the "I", without which we would not be able to experience, or to think anything - at least not as something that identifies itself as some "I" to which all of experience (the inner-, and outer- intuition of objects as enabled by our sensibility) and thoughts are united. This process is referred to as the synthetic unity of apperception.
 

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You can't know the you part that supposedly does the thinking. Cogito ergo sum, as Kierkegaard and others have attested, presumes the "I" and proves nothing worthwhile.


Snafu, I would agree with you that we can't really "know" what part of us does the thinking. It might be the brain, it might be the soul, or it might be something else. However, it doesn't really change all that much for this argument in my opinion. Are you really telling me that it's not valid for me to say that I exist?

The dream example drives home my previous point.

Why do you presuppose you though?

I'm confused why people repeatedly commit this error.

I'm not sure what you mean but if you are asking me why I treat you like someone else other than me then I guess it's because it's easier that way if for no other reason. It would actually be pretty depressing if I somehow found out that one one else existed other than myself so I really hope that you do exist snafu, I really hope that you exist, lol.


Because people usually assume dreams are as real as life (as they are unfolding) when dreams do not take place in corporal reality. The dream environment is not strictly tangible.

Some jagoff could aver something like cogito ergo sum but the dream persona is one level of abstraction away from conventionally accepted reality.

You'd be wrong if you said cogito ergo sum during a dream. In waking or sleeping consciousness, though, cogito ergo sum doesn't prove anything because it presupposes the "I" part.


I don't think that it matters if you are sleeping or are awake, as long as you have enough awareness to be aware of the fact that you exist, it should still be valid. Is it invalid for me to say that I exist? I've thought about it quite a bit and I think I must conclude that I exist. This consciousness of mine along with my memories create something I call myself and as far as I am aware, because I am aware, I do exist.
I don't find it necessary to define "I" much further than this.

It's circular and tautological because it starts and ends by neglecting the "I" part.

Cogito ergo sum adds nothing to its original postulate.

See the above.
 

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Snafu, I would agree with you that we can't really "know" what part of us does the thinking. It might be the brain, it might be the soul, or it might be something else.

That's arguably the only point I'm making - Descartes can't know and you can't know.

However, it doesn't really change all that much for this argument in my opinion.

The conditionals change everything. If the observer squeals cogito ergo sum during dream, and assumes the dream persona is the most real ontological manifestation, they are wrong.

Are you really telling me that it's not valid for me to say that I exist?

I'm more saying that Descartes' cogito ergo sum doesn't prove anything.
 

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That's arguably the only point I'm making - Descartes can't know and you can't know.



The conditionals change everything. If the observer squeals cogito ergo sum during dream, and assumes the dream persona is the most real ontological manifestation, they are wrong.



I'm more saying that Descartes' cogito ergo sum doesn't prove anything.

There seems to be some kind of misunderstanding here.

If you have ever practiced lucid dreaming you would know that it is possible to function in virtually the same way in real life from within a dream. When the dreamer "squeals cogito ergo sum" during the dream, it is no less valid than it was when the dreamer was awake, they are simply affirming the existence of their own consciousness. I fail to understand how affirming one's existence is not proof of one's existence. It does not matter what your dream persona may be at the moment, perhaps you are imagining yourself to have the body of a werewolf, it wouldn't make the slightest difference. I can not even understand why you even mention this, honestly.

Since you have mentioned it however, I want to add something else. What is real anyway? Our perception of both dreams and "reality" come from within the mind so how can we truly judge something to be more real than something else?
 
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Socrates had a similar view. The greatest wisdom is that you know no knowledge not even this.

Buddhism, also tends to agree with no knowledge. It logical to presume so and to carry on with that mentality is to me on hand to embrace Murphy's law and on the other hand be completely fear free.

If I was the only one in the universe i would think there are multiple universes...

In all i think that kind of thinking does concern the ego and adolescents. but i feel like its defeated by existentialism when what one is is not any great meaning and therefore you cant influence the world any further then you allow it to be influence to you.
 
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existence before essence is the usual slogan for it. Existentialism is the concept that a person has no meaning before the exist, that the are not born with meaning and that existential freedom is the freedom to give your self meaning. Sartre is the founder.

This would go on to say we give meaning to all things and so as are world is constructed by previous generations we are construct our own meaning upon what we know of the world.
 

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In that case I can see this idea working very well together with solipsism rather than defeating it. You can simultaneously believe that the outside world is unknowable and that there is no inherent meaning to anything either.
 

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I'm more of the opinion that there's no guarantee even an individual's own mind exists.
 

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Since you have mentioned it however, I want to add something else. What is real anyway? Our perception of both dreams and "reality" come from within the mind so how can we truly judge something to be more real than something else?

Er, empiricism? Are you really confused as to whether your dream persona is as real as yourself in waking consciousness?! That's hilarious. Well, maybe dream tonight that you struck oil or invested in something valuable. :D
 

snafupants

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existence before essence is the usual slogan for it. Existentialism is the concept that a person has no meaning before the exist, that the are not born with meaning and that existential freedom is the freedom to give your self meaning. Sartre is the founder.

This would go on to say we give meaning to all things and so as are world is constructed by previous generations we are construct our own meaning upon what we know of the world.

The whole tabula rasa schtick can be taken too far. Instinct and memories stored in DNA, even in animals, clearly refute the existence precedes essence idea. I admit, though, values are more moot and alterable than commonly conceded. In that sense, Kierkegaard and Sartre and Locke were on the right track. Sartre was misguided in undervaluing, however, the import of collective memory on human consciousness. Sartre may have read too much Nietzsche - somehow I get the feeling that Sartre relinquished rational thought and deferred to historical idols in formulating these notions.
 

Solitaire U.

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Well it seems to get you into a mindset in which you are no longer sure if there is an outside world or if the people around you are actually real or not. If they turn out to be illusions then it raises the question of who you are then. Since you are presumably the only being that is actually "real," what does that make you? Does it make you god? What happens if you suicide then? Will you just wake up in another world because you are immortal? If this were to actually happen, your world view would completely shatter, you would know that you can't die and would probably act very differently from that moment on. Perhaps you would regain old memories that confirm your godliness and gain your old powers back. Who knows? I wouldn't kill myself of though, since I don't know what will happen.

Concept officially invalidated.
 

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I'm more of the opinion that there's no guarantee even an individual's own mind exists.

I've certainly considered this but it doesn't really make sense. Could you actually propose an alternative?

Er, empiricism? Are you really confused as to whether your dream persona is as real as yourself in waking consciousness?! That's hilarious. Well, maybe dream tonight that you struck oil or invested in something valuable. :D

I must admit that that the everyday world has much more permanence. I mean I do like to think that I am perceiving the everyday world accurately and that it is real, it's just that I can't actually prove it to myself.

Concept officially invalidated.

Not really.
 

snafupants

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I must admit that that the everyday world has much more permanence. I mean I do like to think that I am perceiving the everyday world accurately and that it is real, it's just that I can't actually prove it to myself.

At the very least, the dream persona is contingent on the corporal mind-body apparatus. This is what I meant by levels of abstraction earlier.

There's really no way to prove the realness of everyday ontology, and Descartes' enthusiasm is certainly premature and baseless.
 
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Could we perhaps reference the value of gold economically to the value of reality or the like concept...

Mercantilism works on the thought that there is a limited, a finite, amount of wealth in the world. It was the system used to hold markets captive such as a country's colony. It was big in the 16th-17th century and worked with the accumulation of gold representing wealth.

Metaphysically it has integrity but as an overarching philosophical point i would argue that we give reality a representational value not as a commodity but as a use-value. (Im following the reasoning of Marx here). Gold may not be legitimate value for it being horded (as a commodity) BUT it is the Acknowledgement of power and authority that gold gives a person (as such is the reliability on reality, and reality as a commodity, power could contemporary to be persumed knowledge ). We do not seek to colonize or assert power on the world rather we seek its use-value not as a commodity that could be exchanged but as it's utility to man to not do labour. and as it's use-value has no use to others (meaning/reality - only one person can know a secret and use it). There is no labour in reality(representational value) but it has utility and utility is the basis of all power.

Haha i might have lost people but i gave a shot at saying self empowerment does not work unless you make people believe you have an importent secret. and a secret can only be useful to one person.........yeahhh
The timeess the are a channingg
 

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I've certainly considered this but it doesn't really make sense. Could you actually propose an alternative?

So Cogito ergo Sum makes more sense? I don't really see it. I do not see why consciousness would necessitate existence. It's not like consciousness is some sacred and grand idea that makes contact with phenomenal reality and isn't a part of it; I rather like to think that consciousness is an emergent property of matter (more specifically, an emergent property of a particular order of matter that we call 'life'), and thus begins and ends with matter. Taking this into consideration, it would then be perfectly valid to say that if any doubt could be cast upon the ontological existence of the world around some thinking agent, then doubt can also be cast upon the ontological existence of the thinking agent himself. The assumption that even you exist is a senseless assumption with no logical backing.

What do you mean, "propose an alternative"?
 

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So Cogito ergo Sum makes more sense? I don't really see it. I do not see why consciousness would necessitate existence. It's not like consciousness is some sacred and grand idea that makes contact with phenomenal reality and isn't a part of it?
Decart never used, as far as I know, the cogito argument to prove the existence of phenomenological reality, a reality as separated from he who doubts. If he did, and that the argument he laid forth were such that he claimed it to prove not only the existence of he who doubts, but a reality as separated from mind, not only would the argument be mistaken, or lacking, but cartesian dualism would refer to nothing.
It is only in his 6th (last) meditation, I believe, were he address the existence of reality as mediated through our senses in any detail, and our justification for it's existence is not argued directly through the cogito, but through God and observations like how our senses generally, even though they sometimes err, serves to the benefit and continued survival of the individual.

Regarding the cogito argument itself, even though I admire his method, I don't find the axiom he arrived at helpful in deducing any new, certain knowledge, which, after all, was the whole purpose of his endeavor. You can't go from cogito to anywhere else as opposed to, say, newtons three laws of motion. At least not in any obvious way not prone to error, difficulties or complications.
 

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So Cogito ergo Sum makes more sense? I don't really see it. I do not see why consciousness would necessitate existence. It's not like consciousness is some sacred and grand idea that makes contact with phenomenal reality and isn't a part of it; I rather like to think that consciousness is an emergent property of matter (more specifically, an emergent property of a particular order of matter that we call 'life'), and thus begins and ends with matter.

Consciousness is a state of existence therefore anyone who possesses it exists.

Taking this into consideration, it would then be perfectly valid to say that if any doubt could be cast upon the ontological existence of the world around some thinking agent, then doubt can also be cast upon the ontological existence of the thinking agent himself. The assumption that even you exist is a senseless assumption with no logical backing.

Yes, it's completely retarded to assume that I exist. *facepalm*

What do you mean, "propose an alternative"?

Explain a scenario where it is possible for me to be under the impression that I am conscious and that I exist but it turns out that I don't exist at all.
 

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Explain a scenario where it is possible for me to be under the impression that I am conscious and that I exist but it turns out that I don't exist at all.
That's impossible, because you can't exist and not exist at the same time. I'm going to assume, however, that you mean a scenario in which it's possible to be conscious, or perceive to be conscious as manifest through doubt of existence (if following Decart), while not having any existence. If you refer to the existence of that which doubt, as opposed to any direct corporeal existence, I agree that it's surely impossible to even imagine how my doubt, or some other thought doesn't exist when I'm doubting or thinking.
Contrary to some others here, if something (or rather, someone) experience doubt, what I believe to be me, I don't find it problematic to conclude that there is someone who doubts, or at least something that enables the doubt. Even though the cogito doesn't give me access to all that is contained in the "I", nor knowledge of it's constituents, it's location and if there even is one - it still necessitates that there is some faculty (physical or otherwise) that enables this doubting and this faculty can and must be said to exist just as much as my doubt exist. Would you agree with this, @nil?
 

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Unless there is exceptional feedback, communication over the internet is basically interfacing with a computer, and not 'actual people'. :matrix:

Similarly imagine every conversation in real life as if you're talking to an extension of yourself. :phear:

picture.php


EOR stands for External objective reality I think.

This is a map of the perception of reality, which is really a map of solipsism. Even if there is such a thing as an external objective reality, as humans, we only know what we experience, and what we experience is a subset of our consciousness.

No consciousness = no experience = no external reality


As Egos the Self affirms itself in the EOR, and internalizes experiences from the EOR. But both of these exist within consciousness.
 

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If I see a dog's tail, I don't know for sure what the heck I'm seeing. But if I see it wagging, I can assume it's attached to a dog though I may be in error. So do I assume or not? By assume I mean pretend. I don't HAVE to know anything.
 

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After a while I ask myself, how long do I have to keep up this pretense? Either there is a g.d. dog attached to every tail I see wagging or there ain't. From now on every tail has a dog and you'd better stay out of my way or I'll have it bite you.
 
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You have to consider the time period Descartes was in. The Church still loomed large over the new governmental system of absolutism, the enlightenment (1687-1787ish) philosophers focused on social reform policy. John Locke, Bacon, Newton were at this time. Descartes was very cautious to not alarm the Church's authority. He was big into metaphysics lived(1717-1779) (though the enlightenment was largely against metephysics)

thanks to him and his motivational philosophy the artifice and movement of Nonage. Which is the ability to use one's understanding with out another's guidance "Dare to know!". Courage to use your understanding is a big step that the People took and just after the Protestant Reformation so too would there be one to come in the form of the French Revolution! woot history.
 

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Unless there is exceptional feedback, communication over the internet is basically interfacing with a computer, and not 'actual people'. :matrix:

Similarly imagine every conversation in real life as if you're talking to an extension of yourself. :phear:

picture.php


EOR stands for External objective reality I think.

This is a map of the perception of reality, which is really a map of solipsism. Even if there is such a thing as an external objective reality, as humans, we only know what we experience, and what we experience is a subset of our consciousness.

No consciousness = no experience = no external reality


As Egos the Self affirms itself in the EOR, and internalizes experiences from the EOR. But both of these exist within consciousness.


It's an interesting idea and perhaps it was the source of nondualism. I never liked the "we are all one" idea because I used to think there was no evidence for it/it was stupid new age crap but it's true in the sense that we can only know of one being, ourselves. The outside world is a product of our mind and so in our experience there is nothing more than ourselves/perception that comes from within our own minds. I might be taking this too far, but perhaps nondualism has something going for itself. On the other hand, it's not a provable idea because the reality of others cannot be known so if others do in fact exist outside of the mind it cannot be proven either way.
 

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If I see a dog's tail, I don't know for sure what the heck I'm seeing. But if I see it wagging, I can assume it's attached to a dog though I may be in error. So do I assume or not? By assume I mean pretend. I don't HAVE to know anything.
I don't think your example is comparable because knowing that a dog's tail entail there being a dog to which the tail belongs to can only be known a posteriori. In addition, as you've also just made clear, it's contingent, because it isn't necessarily so that whenever I see a dog's tail I will see, upon further inquiry, that it's located on a dog. It is however necessarily so that whenever I doubt my existence I can be sure of the existence of the faculty (physical or otherwise) that enables me doubting even if all it is, or turns out to be, is the doubting itself.
 

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I don't think your example is comparable because knowing that a dog's tail entail there being a dog to which the tail belongs to can only be known a posteriori.
Most definitely. Between you and me the dog's tail IS part of the dog's posterior. :D

In addition, as you've also just made clear, it's contingent, because it isn't necessarily so that whenever I see a dog's tail I will see, upon further inquiry, that it's located on a dog.
The first time I see a dog's tail, I don't know what the heck I've got. It's only after being a recipient of this tale a number of times I begin to get suspicious and suspect a dog is being attached every time. I don't ask for this. It is induced upon me. Call it induction, but I've got it.

It is however necessarily so that whenever I doubt my existence I can be sure of the existence of the faculty (physical or otherwise) that enables me doubting even if all it is, or turns out to be, is the doubting itself.
Yeah. I had a dream the other night I was doing some ridiculous things. I thought to myself, "What a trick. No way do I exist like this!"
 

ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε

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Yeah. I had a dream the other night I was doing some ridiculous things. I thought to myself, "What a trick. No way do I exist like this!"

It's the beginning of lucid dreaming. When I was younger I used to have dreams about being chased by witches and monsters but for some reason the chase never lasted more than a few seconds because I would soon realize that such things only happen in dreams. I would then stop running and presto the monsters would either vanish or start being friendly. I actually remember that I felt really good after those dreams where the monsters would suddenly become friends. I'm not quite sure what it may entail but it was quite the novelty.

Nowadays I'm pretty much always aware when I am dreaming almost instantly and I spend most of my time just floating around in random worlds created by my subconscious. Sometimes I'll have enemies in my dreams but they seem to be there mostly for my entertainment because I know they can't actually harm me. But yea, you realized that something wasn't quite right which then leads you to suspect that your are dreaming. As before though, since you can think in your dream you certainly exist no matter how strange the dream may seem.
 

nexion

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Consciousness is a state of existence therefore anyone who possesses it exists.

Ok, after thinking about this much more, I see that by logical predicates, for anyone to question whether he exists, he must exist, for one can not question whether he exists if he does not exist. Thanks, I guess. Years of wondering why the Cogito argument is so highly esteemed put to rest. No one that I have in contact with has ever explained it simply.
 

Da Blob

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I doubt the wisdom of crediting Sarte with being more than a wordy fool, existentialism has been around for a long time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

Observation is
Consciousness exists
Therefore the Observer exists
Conscious entity Is

So the great limitation is that one can't be conscious of consciousness. There is no 'Consciousness Squared'. IF there is another consciousness in this universe, I can't be aware of it as a separate phenomena and so would have to claim it as my own.

We speak of POV so often, that everyone know that POV stands for Point-Of-View, but they often have no idea what a Human POV actually is...
 

ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε

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Ok, after thinking about this much more, I see that by logical predicates, for anyone to question whether he exists, he must exist, for one can not whether he exists if he does not exist. Thanks, I guess. Years of wondering why the Cogito argument is so highly esteemed put to rest. No one that I have in contact with has ever explained it simply.

Sure, no problem. In a way I'd like someone to do something like this for me in the odd chance that I might be wrong about something :P Not that I would like to be wrong, but I do value the objective truth (perhaps the collective subjective that happens to be the most logical, but you get the point) more than being wrong.

I doubt the wisdom of crediting Sarte with being more than a wordy fool, existentialism has been around for a long time...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existentialism

Observation is
Consciousness exists
Therefore the Observer exists
Conscious entity Is

So the great limitation is that one can't be conscious of consciousness. There is no 'Consciousness Squared'. IF there is another consciousness in this universe, I can't be aware of it as a separate phenomena and so would have to claim it as my own.

We speak of POV so often, that everyone know that POV stands for Point-Of-View, but they often have no idea what a Human POV actually is...

That's silly, I am certainly conscious of the fact that I am conscious. Also, I know exactly what the human point of view is because I experience it everyday. This consciousness of our consciousness is what seems to separate us from machines, it is what gives the impression to us that we may have souls. I am however more leaning towards the idea of the different areas of the brain being concious of the other parts giving us this illusion. Why so? I think it may be because over the course of my life the previously magical quality that life seemed to posses has been systematically ripped to shreds one topic at a time as I learned more about the current scientific understanding of things and really thought about things a great deal. And so now, I can say with 99.99% certainty that anything remotely related with magic or spirituality just isn't real in the common definition of the word real (this includes souls.) It doesn't however stop me from reading occult books and reading occult material on the internet trying to make something special happen because somewhere deep inside I want it to be real. I still ask for some god to prove me wrong, to show me something special but unfortunately it never happens. Damn you, whoever you are, show me a miracle! Make something crazy happen! Lol.
 

IdeasNotTheProblem

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Exactly. We don't have to be sure of anything outside ourselves. Our selves do get these impressions and these impressions congeal into memories plus more impressions. We can process with only what's inside our minds or try out these impressions. If these trials prove worthy, our minds are filled with more complexities. Gradually it becomes worthwhile to act on these complexities if only to keep the ball of life rolling.

These impressions can fool us too. In that case when we try out our impressions, we get bad results. This results in our rejection of the supposition that the world is that way.


I just read about a study which brought up some similar ideas(I can look it up again if you're interested). It basically was a very detailed description of intuition and logical inference models. It is kind of tedious but it mentions the point about how confidence in an inference is increased when it has been applied successfully.


Now look at the extremely subjective mindset of the strong Ti-Ne. Not only do they have a warehouse of readily accessible inferences, but the confidence they have in them may have a direct impact on their own self-confidence/esteem, ego, etc. I know I get an emotional boost not only when an inf. is applied successfully but also when a new idea or knowledge supports/ confirms previously held inferences. And of course, the intense dejection resulting from a failed inference.
Anyone else?


This detachment of the emotional response from the objective act of applying the inference, to the subjective act of influencing its personal value or credibility through thought alone, i think, would lend itself to the concept of solipsism, to the extent that all "meaning" in life occurs within the mind rather than the external world.
 

Da Blob

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No, it is quite impossible to be conscious of consciousness as a direct perceptual experience. It would be somewhat akin to an ability to see around corners or through walls. One can't be aware of what an Other is aware of, without becoming aware of that phenomena One's Self... It is a seeming paradox...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacognition

While metacognition and hypercognition are fascinatinating topics, still the basic law is that a human is limited to a single POV at any one time.

The fact that we can entertain multiple POVs, each at different time, has enabled us to become intelligent beings. However, there is no human who is bi-scient, much less omniscient...
 

IdeasNotTheProblem

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No, it is quite impossible to be conscious of consciousness as a direct perceptual experience. It would be somewhat akin to an ability to see around corners or through walls. One can't be aware of what an Other is aware of, without becoming aware of that phenomena One's Self... It is a seeming paradox...
Yes, although we cannot see around corners, a strategy is to make logical inferences based on past experience and available knowledge in order to predict what is around the corner. Some may interpret this inference as a fact (i.e. there is a table around the corner, because yesterday I walked around the corner and saw a table) Other's especially those inclined to abstract thinking, understand that what they believe to be a table around the corner is nothing more than an idea generated in their mind. Therefore, I cannot be sure a table exists around the corner, I can only be sure that the idea of the table exists.
 

ℜεмїηїs¢εη¢ε

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No, it is quite impossible to be conscious of consciousness as a direct perceptual experience. It would be somewhat akin to an ability to see around corners or through walls. One can't be aware of what an Other is aware of, without becoming aware of that phenomena One's Self... It is a seeming paradox...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacognition

While metacognition and hypercognition are fascinatinating topics, still the basic law is that a human is limited to a single POV at any one time.

The fact that we can entertain multiple POVs, each at different time, has enabled us to become intelligent beings. However, there is no human who is bi-scient, much less omniscient...

I'm not sure what kind of vague logic you are using but I know that I am conscious. Therefore I am conscious of the fact that I am conscious. It is nothing like seeing through walls because seeing through walls is something I am incapable of doing without a window or some other assistance but I can be aware of my consciousness while I am awake and while I am dreaming without any such assistance. I believe that both your statement and your analogy are false unless you can figure out a better way of explaining it.

Just in case you are actually referring to being conscious of other people's conciousness then I will agree with you that this is impossible since I can't even prove that other people actually exist much less read their minds or whatever it may entail to be aware of their consciousness.
 

Duxwing

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Well, can one be sure that one's doubt is not an illusion? Note that my position is not doubt in itself, and hence it does not create an everlasting chain of doubt.

-Duxwing
 
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