Should INTPs have jobs?

[Architect]

There are millions of ways to make money other than being employed

All forms of making money is being employed! Passive income isn't passive, you have to set it up. Playing poker means you need to spend considerable time learning, then doing it. Investing means you have to at a minimum know what you are doing, even if you outsource it to a money manager. I see the difference between being self employed an employed by a firm as little different fundamentally. Both have bosses - either customers (contracting), opponents (poker)* or bosses (working at Corp).

It's amusing to see INTP's who keep making the mistake of thinking that they can get money for nothing and the chicks for free. Nothing is free. Inherit a fortune? Then you have to learn how to deal with that. Become a billionaire? Spend the rest of your life getting rid of it, like Bill Gates.

The INTP pseudo-dream of a perfectly independent and responsibility free life doesn't really exist.

*

Spoiler

I don't see the allure of online poker. Sure I get the arguments, 'work for yourself', 'live free' , 'work from home' ... yeah, but your life is based on a stack of playing cards. After 30 years what do you have? Did you do anything? Produce anything useful? Or just shuffled the deck for 30 years?

 

[paradoxparadigm7]

All forms of making money is being employed! Passive income isn't passive, you have to set it up. Playing poker means you need to spend considerable time learning, then doing it. Investing means you have to at a minimum know what you are doing, even if you outsource it to a money manager. I see the difference between being self employed an employed by a firm as little different fundamentally. Both have bosses - either customers (contracting), opponents (poker)* or bosses (working at Corp).

It's amusing to see INTP's who keep making the mistake of thinking that they can get money for nothing and the chicks for free. Nothing is free. Inherit a fortune? Then you have to learn how to deal with that. Become a billionaire? Spend the rest of your life getting rid of it, like Bill Gates.

The INTP pseudo-dream of a perfectly independent and responsibility free life doesn't really exist.

*

Spoiler

I don't see the allure of online poker. Sure I get the arguments, 'work for yourself', 'live free' , 'work from home' ... yeah, but your life is based on a stack of playing cards. After 30 years what do you have? Did you do anything? Produce anything useful? Or just shuffled the deck for 30 years?

Couldn't agree more. No one gets out of this life without responsibilities. And why would you want to forego the benefits that come from honing your skills, intellect and contributing to self and society?

 

[Helvete]

*

Spoiler

I don't see the allure of online poker. Sure I get the arguments, 'work for yourself', 'live free' , 'work from home' ... yeah, but your life is based on a stack of playing cards. After 30 years what do you have? Did you do anything? Produce anything useful? Or just shuffled the deck for 30 years?

Anything I have done or produced has happened outside of work or playing poker. Why should these things be the benchmark by which you measure?

I have spent most of my time not knowing what I want to to, not wanting to commit to any particular studies for fear I would not enjoy it after some time. I'm doing exactly what I want now and am enjoying it to no end. This is completely independent to my source of income, like it has always been and like it is for so many other people too.

Aside from that, the autonomy, coupled with a great mix of mental stimulation and reward beats a strict timetable with a boss breathing down your neck.

 

[Sinny91]

I hate work with a passion.

I don't mind *work*, I just hate formal work as it currently exists.
The long hours, the little pay, the irrelevancy of the work in the grand scheme of things.
Life's short, and most of our time is robbed off us.

In my ideal world, the planet would like one of those utopian ones you see on Star Trek, where people just do whatever it is they love doing, and survival is a community endeavor.

After quitting my 9-5 of 3 years impulsively, i've now ended up with two shiter paid jobs, working days and evenings. cuz I'm a twat.

 

[Tannhauser]

I see the difference between being self employed an employed by a firm as little different fundamentally. Both have bosses - either customers (contracting), opponents (poker)* or bosses (working at Corp).

Well, I happen to see a difference between having a slave master and an opponent.

You have a good point though -- the lack of a bigger purpose with it. Hence, as I mentioned, the need for intellectual/creative pursuits on the side.

One should not forget the completely artificial nature of "higher purpose" with normal jobs though. It is just that we happen to live in a time were "hard work" somehow has acquired a moral dimension, and that having a job is "contributing to society". For example Max Weber believed this notion grew out of protestant values -- the idea that God loves hard work, no matter what it is.

 

[Absurdity]

Okay, I want to preface this by saying I am not calling anyone out in particular, since I've see this type of thinking quite frequently here over the years:

Well, I happen to see a difference between having a slave master and an opponent.

...

One should not forget the completely artificial nature of "higher purpose" with normal jobs though.

... and it annoys the shit out of me. People who say things things, to me, seem to have learned about the outside world from a philosophy book in school and believing it to be the one and holy truth about existence and write off actually going out into the world and seeing if it is true or not. To be honest, I felt the exact same way for a long time, and I had the exact same plans: just get a job that gave me enough to get by, pursue my real "passions" on the side, etc. It was total bullshit.

Maybe people just aren't going to believe me, or think I'm exceptionally lucky or privileged, but there are actually good jobs out there - ones where you work with exceptionally smart people, under bosses who are a pleasure to be around and care about your wellbeing and future growth, where you get to help build something on the frontier of human knowledge or at the inception of a new industry, where merit is the sole measure of your status within the company, where no two days are the same, etc.

It feels really really fucking good to have a job like this, to feel like you're building something with other awesome people you care about, and I think people who write off the existence of places like this without even bothering to really see if they exist are doing themselves a grave disservice.

If you're fresh out of school, you're in the perfect position to find a spot at a place like this. However, if you've spent six years playing poker and dicking around trying to write the next great American novel, you will be substantially worse off when you realize you may have made a mistake and go back to try getting a job in a professional work environment. Not saying it's impossible, but it is far easier to give it a shot when you're young and then realize you don't like it after giving it a fair go, than it is to try and come back to it when you're older.

 

[Sixup]

Good post Absurdity.

But how do you get one of these good jobs? I imagine they are rare, or at least harder to find/get than the standard 'getting by' job.

 

[Tannhauser]

Finally, a real fucking post. Thank you, Absurdity.

 

[Absurdity]

But how do you get one of these good jobs? I imagine they are rare, or at least harder to find/get than the standard 'getting by' job.

You move to the most economically dynamic city you can reasonably afford to move to and look hard. I think I got rejected from over 100 different openings before I found my current position.

Have your shit together, be passionate, be eager to learn, and don't do anything if you can't muster the minimal amount of enthusiasm to make it apparent that you give a damn. Be willing to pay your dues, to slog through tedium for weeks, months, and do it without complaining.

Expose yourself to random encounters that could lead down interesting paths: attend talks and events on topics that interest you, go out and meet people even if it is so intensely awkward at first that you want to die (some alcohol will help, but a lot of alcohol will not).

Justine Musk has a great Quora response on what makes people like Elon so massively and outrageously "successful" (as much as I despise that word, I can't think of a better one right now):

But if you're extreme, you must be what you are, which means that happiness is more or less beside the point. These people tend to be freaks and misfits who were forced to experience the world in an unusually challenging way. They developed strategies to survive, and as they grow older they find ways to apply these strategies to other things, and create for themselves a distinct and powerful advantage. They don't think the way other people think. They see things from angles that unlock new ideas and insights. Other people consider them to be somewhat insane.

Be obsessed.

Be obsessed.

Be obsessed.

If you're not obsessed, then stop what you're doing and find whatever does obsess you. It helps to have an ego, but you must be in service to something bigger if you are to inspire the people you need to help you (and make no mistake, you will need them). That 'something bigger' prevents you from going off into the ether when people flock round you and tell you how fabulous you are when you aren't and how great your stuff is when it isn't. Don't pursue something because you "want to be great". Pursue something because it fascinates you, because the pursuit itself engages and compels you. Extreme people combine brilliance and talent with an *insane* work ethic, so if the work itself doesn't drive you, you will burn out or fall by the wayside or your extreme competitors will crush you and make you cry.

Not saying you should get up from the computer right now and try to be Elon Musk, or that that's what I'm trying to do, but this sort of intensity toward life is something I've realized is the key to fulfillment in my case at least. The fact that it is so antithetical to most of the angsty posts on here is a big reason why I left for several months and am trying to avoid getting sucked back in too much.

The world's a big place, and there are good people in it. Get off your ass.

 

[Analyzer]

What job do you have Absurdity?

 

[Helvete]

I second abs here, although slightly contrary to what I already said, I agree. Lol. Although right now I am playing poker I am also currently setting myself up for a position that sounds very similar to what abs is doing right now; this has come about by getting myself involved with what I enjoy, confidence (even if a lot was put on), being open to new ideas and random encounters.
These sorts of things happen because you want to be there, because you're extremely proactive about them and you make them happen. Find what you want and do it. Don't worry about anything else, anything out of your control, it's irrelevant.
I start tomorrow and it will be the first job that I'm sure I will be super happy with. My previous jobs I hated and I had no reason to want to be there, find that reason.

 

[redbaron]

The reason people look to competition related things like poker and sports for income is because they're enjoyable to do. To make a living out of it though, you need to be amazing. Part of the 0.01% amazing. 99.9% of people can't become a sports star, poker player or pro gamer even if they try. Those that manage it are literally in a class of their own and doing something they love to do, do of course it's something people like to pursue.

Education is the safe way for people not so talented to do better than mediocre in their lives, but with less enjoyment. Though if you put in enough effort and you're lucky, maybe you turn that education into something not only above mediocre, but actually really enjoyable for you.

For 99.9% of people who want to one day achieve any kind of security and enjoyment, the latter is the safer bet. Unless you're superhumanly talented at something, enjoy it as much as you can but don't spend all your resources trying to make it your life.

It's certainly a far greater achievement for someone to become an elite competitor, but not everybody can do it.

 

[Tannhauser]

The reason people look to competition related things like poker and sports for income is because they're enjoyable to do. To make a living out of it though, you need to be amazing. Part of the 0.01% amazing. 99.9% of people can't become a sports star, poker player or pro gamer even if they try. Those that manage it are literally in a class of their own and doing something they love to do, do of course it's something people like to pursue.

Education is the safe way for people not so talented to do better than mediocre in their lives, but with less enjoyment. Though if you put in enough effort and you're lucky, maybe you turn that education into something not only above mediocre, but actually really enjoyable for you.

For 99.9% of people who want to one day achieve any kind of security and enjoyment, the latter is the safer bet. Unless you're superhumanly talented at something, enjoy it as much as you can but don't spend all your resources trying to make it your life.

It's certainly a far greater achievement for someone to become an elite competitor, but not everybody can do it.

You ruined my inspiration for corporate success, dude.

If I would look for what has obsessed me, poker would certainly be it. For me, it encompasses almost everything that engages me: psychology, mathematics, statistics, strategy, programming, artificial intelligence. For example, there does not exist any good algorithm which plays poker better than a human as of yet (except limit-games, which is not really an interesting case). All academic writing on it I have seen sucks hard. So I would not call it something one "dicks around with" as Absuridty put it. It's an extremely challenging intellectual pursuit if one is willing to go deep enough into it.

Although Im gonna try to not write off certain fields of the professional world as of yet. Absurdity is probably right about one thing: great jobs exist, one just has to fight to get them.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

I think it boils down to 4 categories of preference:

1 People seeking a relatively stable job with little benefits.
2 People looking for a dream job that's demanding to have initially and later on.
3 People who want to pick up a few skills to get by comfortably.
4 People who want to be their own bosses and are willing to take the risk.

So a direct proportion of risk and a sum of self-actualisation &/or independence &/or profit.

It could be simplified to risk and profit seeking, whereas the exact profit depends on individual preference.

 

[Urakro]

redbaron has a strong point about the poker.

A person could sit in a few sessions of poker and win a sum of money, but that doesn't suggest anything about anyone's skills. That's for the most part, luck. To determine skill ranking, you'd have to tally up the total net profit after some year or more of playing. And for the majority of people, (especially no-limit poker) they find themselves in the negative profit range, and the rest with a very small profit. A small 0.01% are making something that's worth being admired.

 

[Haim]

I have an idea for the ultimate situation.
Step 1-be rich
Step 2-volunteer in some creative company.
You do what you want,no one has power on you and you get the social need for creativity creation and human needs.

So who know some rich dude to give dollars to us?for others benefit of course

 

[redbaron]

You ruined my inspiration for corporate success, dude.

If I would look for what has obsessed me, poker would certainly be it. For me, it encompasses almost everything that engages me: psychology, mathematics, statistics, strategy, programming, artificial intelligence. For example, there does not exist any good algorithm which plays poker better than a human as of yet (except limit-games, which is not really an interesting case). All academic writing on it I have seen sucks hard. So I would not call it something one "dicks around with" as Absuridty put it. It's an extremely challenging intellectual pursuit if one is willing to go deep enough into it.

Although Im gonna try to not write off certain fields of the professional world as of yet. Absurdity is probably right about one thing: great jobs exist, one just has to fight to get them.

If anything I should have inspired you for corporate success. It's much easier than poker success
Any time you need some more dreams crushed feel free to PM me.

I'm probably going to go study something in the IT field myself. I've tried business but it involves too much business. Of all my abilities, my one truly exemplary skill is the ability to sit in a dark room in front of a monitor for hours on end. So why not make a living out of it?

 

[Reluctantly]

It's a good question. But everyone is going to have something different that they like. But ideally an INTP should probably have a job that is challenging at each step of their career (to keep an interest in staying in that career). And I don't think money is so important past a certain point, nor does it really matter what kind of boss you have, if they let you get your job done. If those conditions are met, everything else is just politics and details, for me anyway. And although they might be annoying, it's just dealing with people a little bit.

I personally hate my job though because if fulfills none of those. I'm like a paid slave and I can't leave or I'd scar my work history. So, shit...

 

[Attreyu]

Great discussion here !

I have been trying to find a good fit (not excellent, just good) since I was 20 and I am now 40 .... have worked construction, assembly line, got a 4 year degree, freelanced in computer graphics, patent illustration, 3d modeling, did the Army thing as an avionics and armament mechanic and now I am back in school for computer science but in reality drifting to find something meaningful.

The main problem is that I bring a European mindset of valuing personal time into a country/culture that doesn't care for it. I do cross fit seriously and need time to train and plan for it, but being stuck with a technical resume I am forced into a field where long hours are expected (I have worked 12-14 hour days since 1999 even as a freelancer and frankly I hate my life for it. Only recently in school I have a normal schedule, but it seems again temporary before the next storm).

I am about to give up looking for meaning at work, but I do want to be home by 5pm for once in my life damn it.

(by the way first post here ... but not big deal)

 

[Inquisitor]

Great discussion here !

I have been trying to find a good fit (not excellent, just good) since I was 20 and I am now 40 .... have worked construction, assembly line, got a 4 year degree, freelanced in computer graphics, patent illustration, 3d modeling, did the Army thing as an avionics and armament mechanic and now I am back in school for computer science but in reality drifting to find something meaningful.

The main problem is that I bring a European mindset of valuing personal time into a country/culture that doesn't care for it. I do cross fit seriously and need time to train and plan for it, but being stuck with a technical resume I am forced into a field where long hours are expected (I have worked 12-14 hour days since 1999 even as a freelancer and frankly I hate my life for it. Only recently in school I have a normal schedule, but it seems again temporary before the next storm).

I am about to give up looking for meaning at work, but I do want to be home by 5pm for once in my life damn it.

(by the way first post here ... but not big deal)

Welcome. And thanks for sharing. I can relate to the part about drifting. I am likewise in school for computer science, in my 30s.

I hate to do this on your first post, but I would venture that you are an ISTP and not INTP. Any kind of serious enjoyment of sports/athletics is a deal-breaker in terms of typing as an INTP. Just doesn't happen. Crossfit is one of the most intensive exercise routines anyone can do. I tried it in college when I was stronger and tougher and pretty much gave it up within a couple weeks. Just too strenuous. Also your job history includes lots of physical/hands-on kind of work (mechanic, construction, assembly line) These kinds of jobs generally are also too physical.

Nevertheless, I'm sure you'll still find some things worthwhile on this forum since ISTPs and INTPs both share Ti and Fe, and that's where most of the story plays out...

 

[Haim]

Welcome. And thanks for sharing. I can relate to the part about drifting. I am likewise in school for computer science, in my 30s.

I hate to do this on your first post, but I would venture that you are an ISTP and not INTP. Any kind of serious enjoyment of sports/athletics is a deal-breaker in terms of typing as an INTP. Just doesn't happen. Crossfit is one of the most intensive exercise routines anyone can do. I tried it in college when I was stronger and tougher and pretty much gave it up within a couple weeks. Just too strenuous. Also your job history includes lots of physical/hands-on kind of work (mechanic, construction, assembly line) These kinds of jobs generally are also too physical.

Nevertheless, I'm sure you'll still find some things worthwhile on this forum since ISTPs and INTPs both share Ti and Fe, and that's where most of the story plays out...

Having INTP way of thinking does not mean you won't enjoy or do physical activity(which he didn't said he liked) just less likely(not 100%!) to put much time on it as other things are more likely of interest,which he did have.

Anyway,Attreyu,you have interesting life(starting with the degree),I can see the use of these skills for game making and electronic products.I do wonder what were you missing?what area?creativity?creative freedom?thinking?challenge?learning?other?

 

[Attreyu]

I hate to do this on your first post, but I would venture that you are an ISTP and not INTP. Any kind of serious enjoyment of sports/athletics is a deal-breaker in terms of typing as an INTP.

That is an interesting point.

My venture into sports started as a philosophical derivation in my teen years (that an entity cannot exist unless it is competent in both thought and motion) and wanted to live an existence that would have been viable in any era of humanity.

Never enjoyed the construction work not because of the physical aspect, but because I could never connect with the people (not philosophical enough, or at all) and I absolutely shut down when physical regiments are imposed from the outside. For example the Army forces you to train their way every day and I hate when someone is trying to bypass my will and use my body as a meat puppet. So, I only do "self generated" training. I see training as a mission and a puzzle that nobody should interfere with; no matter how well they mean. It really sucks when someone gives you the solution to a puzzle or when they tell you how a movie ends while you are still watching. For me physical training is a brain activity.

The other interesting point is that for years I was testing as INTJ, but when I was trying to interact or when I was looking at the career choices for that type it was not a fit until I took the MMDI test which placed me as an INTP and it made more sense. I never tested as an ISTJ (and I have taken the MBTI on and off at least 7 times throughout the years), but I will check it out for sure.

(I hope this whole typology thing is not like astrology)

 

[Inquisitor]

That is an interesting point.

My venture into sports started as a philosophical derivation in my teen years (that an entity cannot exist unless it is competent in both thought and motion) and wanted to live an existence that would have been viable in any era of humanity.

Never enjoyed the construction work not because of the physical aspect, but because I could never connect with the people (not philosophical enough, or at all) and I absolutely shut down when physical regiments are imposed from the outside. For example the Army forces you to train their way every day and I hate when someone is trying to bypass my will and use my body as a meat puppet. So, I only do "self generated" training. I see training as a mission and a puzzle that nobody should interfere with; no matter how well they mean. It really sucks when someone gives you the solution to a puzzle or when they tell you how a movie ends while you are still watching. For me physical training is a brain activity.

The other interesting point is that for years I was testing as INTJ, but when I was trying to interact or when I was looking at the career choices for that type it was not a fit until I took the MMDI test which placed me as an INTP and it made more sense. I never tested as an ISTJ (and I have taken the MBTI on and off at least 7 times throughout the years), but I will check it out for sure.

(I hope this whole typology thing is not like astrology)

Not ISTJ...ISTP.

The former is totally different. ISTPs have a very similar functional stack to INTPs:

ISTP:
Ti-Se-Ni-Fe

INTP:
Ti-Ne-Si-Fe

I would expect that if you are an ISTP, physical training would indeed be a "brain activity." Being an S-type does not mean you are not cerebral. It just means you will generally be more motivated to interact with the physical world directly as opposed to INTPs, who usually are not very interested in hands-on activities.

INTP vs. ISTP Test

See the similarities between INTPs and ISTPs.

Also:

ISTP Profile

Ti vs. Te

ISTP Careers

Ti vs. Fi (on the off-chance that you are an Fi type...seems unlikely given what you described, but you never know.)

 

[Attreyu]

... ... Anyway,Attreyu,you have interesting life(starting with the degree),I can see the use of these skills for game making and electronic products.I do wonder what were you missing?what area?creativity?creative freedom?thinking?challenge?learning?other?

Sure, well having lived 40 years in this body, I have discovered that I tend to focus on a problem to the point of obsession and this ends up disrupting my original mission (of mind/body balance) ... once the "mission" is disrupted I get into depression. When a job is too brainless I miss the mental part, when it is too geeky, I miss the physical part.

With computers the work never ends, you may be trying to do something simple, but realize that increasingly more knowledge is needed to get going, you end up being sidetracked for long periods of time. For example I am working on a MySQL database and as everything seem to flow nicely, but when it is time to provide a GUI for the user I find that I need to build up knowledge on WebDevlopment so a seemingly simple mission generated weeks worth of catching up to HTML, CSS, Javascript, PHP Rubby rails, python django (what it seems like dawning in an infinite umber of manuals).

The other thing is that I have a personality flaw, so when I work on something everything else fades. For example during my freelance years as a patent illustrator I used to focus on the work so much that there were times of going with no sleep of food for 48 to 60 hour at a time to get something finished on time. Usually when this happens I get migranes from dehydration and a couple of times I got kidney stones (again dehydration) ... which means when I focus on intellectuall persuits I neglect the body and get into depression mode.

I need to find this job that is not so brainless but neither too intellectually intense that it traps my mind obsessively all the time (I would not want to be a PhD researcher for examaple). I need to be able to leave the job behind at 5pm. The job itself doesn't have to be physical though.

 

[Attreyu]

Not ISTJ...ISTP.

The former is totally different. ISTPs have a very similar functional stack to INTPs:

ISTP:
Ti-Se-Ni-Fe

INTP:
Ti-Ne-Si-Fe

I would expect that if you are an ISTP, physical training would indeed be a "brain activity." Being an S-type does not mean you are not cerebral. It just means you will generally be more motivated to interact with the physical world directly as opposed to INTPs, who usually are not very interested in hands-on activities.

That is why I really liked the MMDI test. It seems to understand that there is a gradient for everything. For example, here is my percentage gradient on the 4X4 MBTI board:

 

[Attreyu]

ISTP Careers

The ISTP careers feel alien to me on many parts. I would never be a firefighter, orany rescuer occupation (I would take courses to know about it but never as a job), or a Police officer (enforcing rules I fundamentally disagree), or a waiter (and I have tried the waiter thing in my teens). DJ ? Brewmaster ? Truck driver ? My life would feel wasted. Sport coach ? Never ! Physical training is my personal mission and never care to teach others how to train (I find it meaningless)

INTP makes a lot more sense to me. How do you get from computer science major / neuroscience/cognitive science minor to Truck driver ?

I might consider mechanic (but that's an INTP thing too). Essentially the only ISTP jobs in that list that make sense are the ones that show up in the INTP list.

 

[Inquisitor]

That is why I really liked the MMDI test. It seems to understand that there is a gradient for everything. For example, here is my percentage gradient on the 4X4 MBTI board:

It's a gimmick from what I can tell. MBTI is based on Carl Jung's ideas. People are clustered into discrete types according to the theory. The best test to take is the MBTI if you are unsure. Alternatively you can take that INTP/ISTP test (which takes 2-3 minutes) I referred you to if you don't feel like taking the full MBTI. Psychological types are a very "low-level" phenomenon, meaning there's not much of a gradient. That said, if you examine personality as a whole in terms of behavior/traits, people within a certain type will fall along a curve but share many of the same characteristics...the degree is the only thing that varies.

 

[Attreyu]

It's a gimmick from what I can tell. MBTI is based on Carl Jung's ideas.

Firstly, I am not convinced that your understanding is thorough enough to determine the gimmick-ness of this (but of course that goes both ways since we do not know each other).

Secondly, there seems to be some dogmatism in your posts. I would never idolize any specific theory or person. As a matter of fact I am having my doubts about the validity of the entire MBTI or of Jung himself and have enough background in psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience, and genetics to develop an intuition that biology almost never works in compartments, it is nearly always a "gradient". The MMDI seems to resonate better with how nature works. If the theory of MBTI or any theory contradicts with natural observation then the theory needs fixing not nature itself.

Nonetheless for the shake of objectivity, I did take the ISTP vs INTP test as you recommended. Here is the result:

[bimgx=400]http://gdurl.com/NPLV[/bimgx]

In the text above notice what it says about getting immersed in something, and my mention of my personality flaw a few posts up (I have never read the text in the above screenshot until a few minutes ago) which makes it somewhat of an independent comfirmation.

... if you don't feel like taking the full MBTI. Psychological types are a very "low-level" phenomenon, meaning there's not much of a gradient.

Too many assumptions there.
I have taken the full MBTI (under supervision) several times in a 17 year span.
The test is inaccurate on many levels.

First, it relies on language and language is an inaccurate and ambiguous medium. The wording of the questions themselves my not be capturing the intent of the principle behind them. As it is possible that the MMDI had more carefully worded questions for the same things that the MBTI was trying to accomplish.

Secondly, these tests rely on self assessment (what people think of themselves, not what they really are). In a test question most people will insist that they are moral, but in a real life scenarios they could be consistently acting immoral and never realizing it. These kind of tests only reveal our mental distortions of what we think we are, or what we wish we were). I feel the MMDI likely has more accurate "subjectivity filters" (asking criss-crossed questions to catch logical inconsistencies of the tester's responses) than the MBTI.

Thirdly, (derived from the point above) the test is subjective. The test tells you what you told it as opposed to an ideally objective test where you are observed discretely (without your knowledge) by an impartial panel of experts for several weeks under different circumstances and they form a verdict about you without your direct input)

 

[Analyzer]

Attreyu you seem like a INTP. Don't mind the dogmatic "intps don't like physical activity". You remind me of myself especially when you mention the connection of brain and body intellect. Have you considered craftsmanship? I think there is a close symbiosis and holistic thinking when focusing on some certain craft.

 

[Attreyu]

... Have you considered craftsmanship? I think there is a close symbiosis and holistic thinking when focusing on some certain craft.

Agreed !
I feel there is something unnatural about modern life; having tried the desk and school thing and sitting for a whole day straight, but ultimately it is a sort of partial sensory deprivation lifestyle. The brain suffocates by dealing exclusively with ideas and computer screens. At some point everything start to feel like a dream. On the other hand if the job is physical and brainless it feels like a waste and life looses meaning too. So, yes, craftsmanship must be that happy medium.

I was beginning to zone in on CNC machning, or Automation programming, or even Wind turbine technician (but I fear the long drive to locations will turn it into a 12hr day job).

 

[onesteptwostep]

Spoiler

Great discussion here !

I have been trying to find a good fit (not excellent, just good) since I was 20 and I am now 40 .... have worked construction, assembly line, got a 4 year degree, freelanced in computer graphics, patent illustration, 3d modeling, did the Army thing as an avionics and armament mechanic and now I am back in school for computer science but in reality drifting to find something meaningful.

The main problem is that I bring a European mindset of valuing personal time into a country/culture that doesn't care for it. I do cross fit seriously and need time to train and plan for it, but being stuck with a technical resume I am forced into a field where long hours are expected (I have worked 12-14 hour days since 1999 even as a freelancer and frankly I hate my life for it. Only recently in school I have a normal schedule, but it seems again temporary before the next storm).

I am about to give up looking for meaning at work, but I do want to be home by 5pm for once in my life damn it.

(by the way first post here ... but not big deal)

Hi, welcome to the forum. It's sort of eerie but I'm actually on the same path myself, albeit I'm only half the age. Construction is the next thing I keep juggling in my head, but not sure if it'll work entirely. I keep questing and questioning what I have in store for the future and so on..

 

[Sixup]

Maybe electronics repair would be a good fit? Physical aspects yet still requires technical knowledge and troubleshooting analysis.

Only problem is, I can't see making a good living from it unless you run your own shop, which will then be something you could get mentally stuck in since it would be your own business to obsess about.

I watched a youtube video a couple weeks ago about this guy who buys broken old mac PCs in bulk for ridiculously cheap from recyclers. Fixes them up and sells them wholesale on ebay. He said he sells about 6000 computers a year. Seemed pretty interesting.

 

[Inquisitor]

Firstly, I am not convinced that your understanding is thorough enough to determine the gimmick-ness of this (but of course that goes both ways since we do not know each other).

Secondly, there seems to be some dogmatism in your posts. I would never idolize any specific theory or person. As a matter of fact I am having my doubts about the validity of the entire MBTI or of Jung himself and have enough background in psychology, cognitive science, neuroscience, and genetics to develop an intuition that biology almost never works in compartments, it is nearly always a "gradient". The MMDI seems to resonate better with how nature works. If the theory of MBTI or any theory contradicts with natural observation then the theory needs fixing not nature itself.

Nonetheless for the shake of objectivity, I did take the ISTP vs INTP test as you recommended. Here is the result:

[bimgx=400]http://gdurl.com/NPLV[/bimgx]

In the text above notice what it says about getting immersed in something, and my mention of my personality flaw a few posts up (I have never read the text in the above screenshot until a few minutes ago) which makes it somewhat of an independent comfirmation.



Too many assumptions there.
I have taken the full MBTI (under supervision) several times in a 17 year span.
The test is inaccurate on many levels.

First, it relies on language and language is an inaccurate and ambiguous medium. The wording of the questions themselves my not be capturing the intent of the principle behind them. As it is possible that the MMDI had more carefully worded questions for the same things that the MBTI was trying to accomplish.

Secondly, these tests rely on self assessment (what people think of themselves, not what they really are). In a test question most people will insist that they are moral, but in a real life scenarios they could be consistently acting immoral and never realizing it. These kind of tests only reveal our mental distortions of what we think we are, or what we wish we were). I feel the MMDI likely has more accurate "subjectivity filters" (asking criss-crossed questions to catch logical inconsistencies of the tester's responses) than the MBTI.

Thirdly, (derived from the point above) the test is subjective. The test tells you what you told it as opposed to an ideally objective test where you are observed discretely (without your knowledge) by an impartial panel of experts for several weeks under different circumstances and they form a verdict about you without your direct input)

Just trying to be helpful. Based on what you said alone, I still don't think you're an INTP...but you could be. Is that what your MBTI result was? I might suggest reading the foundational works in typology:

The foundational works of the Jungian type system are Jung: Psychological Types (1921), van der Hoop: Character and the Unconscious (1923) and Conscious Orientation (1939), Von Franz: Lectures on Jung’s Typology (1961/71), as well as Myers: Gifts Differing (1980).

There's a fine line between dogmatism and staying true to the theoretical foundations of this whole business. People have a tendency to interpret it however they want, but... (and at the risk of sounding dogmatic) there's not that much flexibility to it. Also, unless you're as well-read and experienced as the people who came up with the theory in the first place, it's wisest to just accept it as is. It's funny people accuse me on this forum for thinking that and not being critical enough, but no one on here is a trained psychoanalyst with decades of experience...and neither am I for that matter, so I just try to stick closely to what these people discovered.

So...according to the theory, you're either one type or another. You can't be both at the same time or be a mixture of all of them. Also, type never changes. That's why the MMDI is bogus. AFAIK it does not have the decades of research backing it up that MBTI does. I even did a look-up in MILO for it...I got 1 search result in the entire Myers-Briggs library...not very convincing. Millions have taken the MBTI, maybe only a few thousand the MMDI. It's a free internet quiz...I wouldn't put much stock in it. Also, the MBTI has been found to be a reliable test by leading Big Five researchers, and seems to correspond closely to 4 out of 5 dimensions in the Big Five.

In the near future, I believe we will be able to confirm that each type corresponds to a specific pattern of dynamic neural networks located in different parts of the brain. One and only one area of the brain in every case is going to be extremely efficient at processing certain information streams (IOW it consumes much less energy than the other parts), while another (on a diagonal to it most likely) is going to be extremely inefficient/underdeveloped.

In any case, good luck with your explorations. Nailing down one's type can be a tricky affair...

 

[Attreyu]

There's a fine line between dogmatism and staying true to the theoretical foundations of this whole business. ....

.... Also, the MBTI has been found to be a reliable test by leading Big Five researchers, and seems to correspond closely to 4 out of 5 dimensions in the Big Five. ..

ok, I see what is happening. The wide use of the MBTI has generated the **illusion** that it is a valid measure. In fact it is not. The MBTI is not an accepted measure when put to the standards of rigor in modern psychology on multiple levels. The only thing that has been shown to have some correlation validity is the E/I scale. The only reason we are here is the off change of grouping people slightly more than randomly.

Besides that, I find the thinking behind your responses to be excessively dogmatic (as in blind adherence to theoretical constructs) and then shielded by intellectual servility (the notion that whoever designed the theory, or any theory, is untouchably intelligent or omniscient to be questioned). Furthermore, there is no substantive reasoning in your posts other than mere statements of parity to the canon, which suggests to me a fundamental disregard for discovery of how the mind or the world really works. It sounds like rules are more important to you than discovery.

*IF* we were to accept the MBTI as valid then you sound like an FJ of some type (ESFJ? ) certainly not an INTP.

 

[Fukyo]

Just trying to be helpful. Based on what you said alone, I still don't think you're an INTP...but you could be. Is that what your MBTI result was? I might suggest reading the foundational works in typology:

You're not being helpful, you're bombarding a new person with unsolicited typing based on a single thing he said.

 

[Attreyu]

Hi, welcome to the forum. It's sort of eerie but I'm actually on the same path myself, albeit I'm only half the age. Construction is the next thing I keep juggling in my head, but not sure if it'll work entirely. I keep questing and questioning what I have in store for the future and so on..

It is very good that you question your path so early (many people don't and they merely drift at your age). It is not a bad idea to try things; I tried construction just to see how it feels or how my mind or body would react to it. I recommend you try the sokanu test at www.sokanu.com (I actually paid only $15 for the full version since I am a student), but it cross references your personality to 600 occupations and it is divided in several mini questioneers that add up to about 200 questions. Again, it is not scientifically bullet proof but it can help you focus.

The only other thing that has ever helped my focus in a pragmatic was was the Strong Interest inventory. I felt the occupational suggestions it came up with were relevant.

Problem is, even if you narrow down the field to just a few, you still have to somehow figure out which one to commit to.

 

[Attreyu]

Maybe electronics repair would be a good fit? Physical aspects yet still requires technical knowledge and troubleshooting analysis.

Only problem is, I can't see making a good living from it unless you run your own shop, which will then be something you could get mentally stuck in since it would be your own business to obsess about.

I watched a youtube video a couple weeks ago about this guy who buys broken old mac PCs in bulk for ridiculously cheap from recyclers. Fixes them up and sells them wholesale on ebay. He said he sells about 6000 computers a year. Seemed pretty interesting.

I tried electronics or rather Avionics for a few years ... the thing is I cannot think straight under stress (I need to time to compose an understanding and investigate) and the military version of avionics is kinda cutthroat especially in theater. The other issue I have with electronics is that it remains abstract even when you physically touch it. You rarely witness the malfanction with your own eyes (like something smoking or burning), the faults can only be deduced indirectly by other instruments which is not as satisfying as the visual confirmation of a belt snapping, or a gear loosing its teeth, or a bearing grinding.

 

[DrGregoryHouse]

...which is not as satisfying as the visual confirmation of a belt snapping, or a gear loosing its teeth, or a bearing grinding.

Keep talking dirty baby o yeah

 

[Attreyu]

Keep talking dirty baby o yeah

 

[The Gopher]

You're not being helpful, you're bombarding a new person with unsolicited typing based on a single thing he said.

Yeah this is the reason we have a witch hunt thread with mandatory /in to begin typing.

If you put 4% of the population or 100% of the INTP population in a room you would see a wide variety of preferences. Assuming MBTI is accurate it might all stem from the same place but it would arrive at different locations.

Unless you think you and your personal experience and research is enough to say out of 280000000 INTP's none of them like exercise.

 

[Inquisitor]

Yeah this is the reason we have a witch hunt thread with mandatory /in to begin typing.

If you put 4% of the population or 100% of the INTP population in a room you would see a wide variety of preferences. Assuming MBTI is accurate it might all stem from the same place but it would arrive at different locations.

Unless you think you and your personal experience and research is enough to say out of 280000000 INTP's none of them like exercise.

Before I completely bow out of this discussion, I'll just say I was genuinely trying to be helpful. Even if what I said was not solicited, if I were in his shoes, (a newcomer to the forum) I would want someone to tell me right off the bat if they thought I was not an INTP based on what I had said. Might save me a lot of time.

Worst case scenario, he's not receptive to my ideas (which seems to be the case), what I say introduces some doubts (however slight), I end up being wrong, but he investigates the issue in greater depth as a result (which he kind of did) and comes out more certain about his own type in the end. Alternatively, he's wrong about being an INTP and now has a more accurate understanding of himself. It's win-win.

Secondly, it's not about liking exercise or not, it's about the degree. A 40 y/o crossfitter who was also a mechanic, worked on an assembly line and in construction, complains about "sensory deprivation" of working in an office, as well as not getting "visual confirmation" of electronics breaking, and says:

The brain suffocates by dealing exclusively with ideas and computer screens. At some point everything start to feel like a dream. On the other hand if the job is physical and brainless it feels like a waste and life looses meaning too. So, yes, craftsmanship must be that happy medium.

I don't know a single INTP who would feel "suffocated" by working only with ideas and computer screens. You think Einstein would ever have said such a thing? OTOH, a 20 y/o INTP exercise fanatic is something I can actually accept, but as people get older, they become more themselves. By age 40, you can still find INTPs that like exercise, but strenuous exercise and competitive/highly active sports? Not very likely...

ok, I see what is happening. The wide use of the MBTI has generated the **illusion** that it is a valid measure. In fact it is not. The MBTI is not an accepted measure when put to the standards of rigor in modern psychology on multiple levels. The only thing that has been shown to have some correlation validity is the E/I scale. The only reason we are here is the off change of grouping people slightly more than randomly.

You really need to have a look at the following:

Another MBTI "debunking"

MBTI for skeptics

 

[Haim]

Before I completely bow out of this discussion, I'll just say I was genuinely trying to be helpful. Even if what I said was not solicited, if I were in his shoes, (a newcomer to the forum) I would want someone to tell me right off the bat if they thought I was not an INTP based on what I had said. Might save me a lot of time.

Worst case scenario, he's not receptive to my ideas (which seems to be the case), what I say introduces some doubts (however slight), I end up being wrong, but he investigates the issue in greater depth as a result (which he kind of did) and comes out more certain about his own type in the end. Alternatively, he's wrong about being an INTP and now has a more accurate understanding of himself. It's win-win.

Secondly, it's not about liking exercise or not, it's about the degree. A 40 y/o crossfitter who was also a mechanic, worked on an assembly line and in construction, complains about "sensory deprivation" of working in an office, as well as not getting "visual confirmation" of electronics breaking, and says:



I don't know a single INTP who would feel "suffocated" by working only with ideas and computer screens. You think Einstein would ever have said such a thing? OTOH, a 20 y/o INTP exercise fanatic is something I can actually accept, but as people get older, they become more themselves. By age 40, you can still find INTPs that like exercise, but strenuous exercise and competitive/highly active sports? Not very likely...



You really need to have a look at the following:

Another MBTI "debunking"

MBTI for skeptics

I can see that happnning if you are doing reptitve or constantly unchallenging things with the computer,you need to remamber he is doing it for a very long time,or that there is a social lack,even INTP can not aviod the human need for social.
The thing is that you judge based on behaviour and decisions,MTBI describe the way you produce behaviour and decisions not what!if you want to understand his MTBI you need to ask why not what.I don't know from where the notion of intp=100% hate sport,intp too can have many reasons to do physical activity,like trying new martial art skill or plain humanly reasons(self image,being awesome,social/girls,feeling good...)

 

[Analyzer]

I don't know a single INTP who would feel "suffocated" by working only with ideas and computer screens. You think Einstein would ever have said such a thing? OTOH, a 20 y/o INTP exercise fanatic is something I can actually accept, but as people get older, they become more themselves. By age 40, you can still find INTPs that like exercise, but strenuous exercise and competitive/highly active sports? Not very likely...

This might have more to do with the Kantian idea of knowledge being independent of sensory information and his methodology of apriorism. Kant was probably a INTP, but his ideas are prevalent throughout the world as they manifest themselves in how we understand philosophy and reality itself. Einsteins main influences was Kant BTW.

You have to understand the context of why he proposed such an epistemological structure in the first place–to liberate humanity from authority at the time(the state,religion, ect). What other way to achieve this then by saying how knowledge/truth is a subjective, purely cognitive affair. Things in the outside or physical(sensory you could say) are just impediments toward understanding in his view. So it makes sense especially being INTP's, that working with pure theory and ideas is all which is necessary to understand truth. Or at least it was.

I believe we need to reevaluate these ideas as they might have served a purpose before but now with digital technology being ambiguous we can see certain shortcomings*. Knowledge consists of your environment, your mind, and your physical actions. Andy Clark talks about this in his theory of extended cognition. So being conscious of the physical world or what you think only ISTP's care about, is actually what the "neo-INTP" understands is necessary.

*How Attreyu talks about being stuck in a "dream/virtual world" and how unnatural it is when just dealing with pure ideas(which abstracted technologies are).

 

[Inquisitor]

This might have more to do with the Kantian idea of knowledge being independent of sensory information and his methodology of apriorism. Kant was probably a INTP, but his ideas are prevalent throughout the world as they manifest themselves in how we understand philosophy and reality itself. Einsteins main influences was Kant BTW.

You have to understand the context of why he proposed such an epistemological structure in the first place–to liberate humanity from authority at the time(the state,religion, ect). What other way to achieve this then by saying how knowledge/truth is a subjective, purely cognitive affair. Things in the outside or physical(sensory you could say) are just impediments toward understanding in his view. So it makes sense especially being INTP's, that working with pure theory and ideas is all which is necessary to understand truth. Or at least it was.

I believe we need to reevaluate these ideas as they might have served a purpose before but now with digital technology being ambiguous we can see certain shortcomings*. Knowledge consists of your environment, your mind, and your physical actions. Andy Clark talks about this in his theory of extended cognition. So being conscious of the physical world or what you think only ISTP's care about, is actually what the "neo-INTP" understands is necessary.

*How Attreyu talks about being stuck in a "dream/virtual world" and how unnatural it is when just dealing with pure ideas(which abstracted technologies are).

Jesus people it ain't rocket science once you actually bother to read the foundational works in typology. Unfortunately, it seems like I'm the only one on here who's actually done that.

 

[Cherry Cola]

Jesus people it ain't rocket science once you actually bother to read the foundational works in typology. Unfortunately, it seems like I'm the only one on here who's actually done that.

 

[Ex-User (9086)]

Jesus people it ain't rocket science once you actually bother to read the foundational works in typology. Unfortunately, it seems like I'm the only one on here who's actually done that.

I don't think this forum was created to worship foundational theory of typology and punish any spin-offs from the canon of the holy scripture of Jung.

How many times one can repeat something before it's considered regurgitation.

 

[Attreyu]

Jesus people it ain't rocket science once you actually bother to read the foundational works in typology. Unfortunately, it seems like I'm the only one on here who's actually done that.

wow, just wow ... this is the exact opposite of scientific inquiry, instead of adapting a theory to reality you reject reality until what's left fits the theory.

(We might as well argue that it is all very simple, since the bible is law and it says the moon is self illuminating, just accept it. Put your instruments away, and don't fight the holy texts)

The paradox is, that *your* performance so far is squarely outside the INTP character and yet you blame others for not being INTP ...

 

[Inquisitor]

wow, just wow ... this is the exact opposite of scientific inquiry, instead of adapting a theory to reality you reject reality until what's left fits the theory.

(We might as well argue that it is all very simple, since the bible is law and it says the moon is self illuminating, just accept it. Put your instruments away, and don't fight the holy texts)

The paradox is, that *your* performance so far is squarely outside the INTP character and yet you blame others for not being INTP ...

I can see you're taking this personally. That wasn't my intention, so I apologize if I've offended you. From what you've said, I get the feeling you're relatively new to this field. And that's why I'm pointing these things out to you. It's not to be a dick.
You haven't read any of the foundational works, yet you think you have a good understanding of the subject matter. You make assertions about the INTP character, but you don't even know what Jung/Myers/Von Franz/Van der Hoop/Thomson/Keirsey/Quenk and others (ie experts) think about them.

This is one of the major problems with the online typology community is that people assume that because this field is not an established discipline on the same level as say academic psychology, that anyone is free to come in and put in their two cents. I actually started out this way too, until I realized I knew jack shit about what I was saying. However dogmatic you think I am, this field is not something you can understand by just taking the MBTI (or even the MMDI) and reading a few articles online.

Also, I never "blamed" you for not being an INTP. I actually said that despite the fact that you are not likely to be an INTP, you would probably still find this forum valuable because ISTPs (which is my guess for you) are very similar to INTPs. There is no one best type, and contrary to what research on IQ might dictate, there is also no "smartest" type; there are just different kinds of intelligences that are suited to different kinds of work.

Anything worth having in life is difficult to obtain. You have to invest the time and effort first into understanding the domain before you even begin to think about critiquing it. Once you are well-read and have a solid fundamental understanding of both the theory and the data (MBTI), then you can start looking for flaws. But until then, any criticism is likely to be nonsense.

 

[onesteptwostep]

I realize the thread's sort of derailed but I found this.

@Tann, my gift to you

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgJZT7ktggg

 

[WALKYRIA]

Dayum, Inquisitor is a harsch one...
I used to be extremely "autistic" and obsessed by sports when I was younger, does that make me an ISTP? Dunno...
I used to do bodybuilding to keep the body sexy once in college...
And I plan on starting crossfitting because it's becomming very popular in Europe and every young professional does it.. SO I'm going to start crossfitting. Not because I enjoy it, but because there is an utility to it.... Yet, I'm still massively an INP( borderline F/T).
So maybe he's borderline INTP/ISTP, just the way I am borderline INFP/INTP, who knows? To be frank I must admit that I didnt go deep in the theory to be able to assess it, but I've heard that some people are "borderline" types.... and also, there is so much diversity in INTPs.... so who knows?




For the job thing, I believe that being INTP is not relevant with your questionning. Having a job as accepted in occidental terms; is mostly a cultural thing. In the west, people work, that's the contract and even more than that, the society is an organizing tool itself organized along two basic pillars, family and work/school, everything is build upon that really... If you'r not happy with it well grow up.
I hear many youngsters also claiming that they don't want to start a family because a family is a burden and is slowing their career's ascend, independence and potential for happiness... mostly young women; but women can't escape the family thing. This is also part of a phase or crise that is common in early twenty somethings.

Therefore, I also believe this question to be part of a growing process and maturity related (I used to be in the same phase in early twenties where I wanted 5 or 6 hot wives for me only, be a jobless millionaire and flaneur,..Etc)... but soon realized that there are many opportunities in being part of a workteam and in doing something that matters. You just can't escape it.
Having a feeling side to myself(INP or FE grip, who knows...), the main factor in choosing a job was doing something that brought sense( real or not) and not only something boring and repetitive that didnt give any sense of purpose. So purpose was the main orienting factor in job search.
About Fe, I believe that It's mainly a motivator/inspirator for INTP, since Ti and Ne alone are too impersonal and thus not enough for INTP to be energized and motivated to do something in life.... feelings can move and inspire people more than anything.

About med school yup, strongly TJ also... There are actually studies done on MBTI and med school. And mainly, It found out what everybody in the medical community knew already, just informally: Pediatricians tend to be the sensitive people(F), psychiatrist the crazy ones( NPs), surgeons the insensitive jerks( TJs), neurologist( NTs), research(INT), and the rest a bunch of normal people with no clear tendency.


And about Elon Musk, yeah he's smart and all... but what stroke me was that this guy was multimillionaire by 22 when he sold his firts company, awesome !
But hey, I don't believe all this is due only to talent and smarts....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSHUha9ABNY