• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.

Self-Induced Hallucinogenic State

Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
1,038
Location
L'eau
#1
So, I've had some time to think about it, and my (somewhat) recent experience with hallucinogenic compounds (P. cubensis to be exact) seemed to be eerily similar to experiences I've personally and purposefully induced on myself - without the aide of hallucinogenic drugs. If you're interested, take a look here; for those who wish not to ingest said compounds, you too may be able to induce a similar experience.

Several months before the first (and only) experience with mushrooms (prior to even planning the experience), I realized that I could make myself feel incredibly strange when completely isolated. At first, I called it "my moment with God". First, I will explain the experience, and then I will relate it to my experience with hallucinogenic drugs.

1st experience, self induced:
Late one night, after failing to fall asleep for some time (estimate: 1 hour [which is not unusual for me]) I started thinking how odd it was that I could open my eyes and still see nothing. I was in a pitch black room (mine) with no windows (don't ask) and the door shut. After some experimentation, I concluded that it was easier to sleep with eyes open, since I wouldn't have to force them shut. After laying in bed for about 5-10 minutes, I started to feel strange indeed.

I started seeing "whisps" - nearly invisible, ribbon-like 'entities' (for lack of a better word) that would swirl around in front of my eyes, converge onto one another, and occasionally disappear from sight. I cannot lie, at this point I was incredibly interested, but also slightly scared; the only time before in my life that I was seeing stuff, I ended up convincing myself I was insane and fell into existential despair for a few months. Nonetheless, I was so awestruck by these whisps that I continued to watch them in amazement. Then I began to get the "creeping feeling"...

The whisps slowly faded out, and I started to delve into the most peculiar state of mind! It wasn't all at once - it felt like the feeling was inside of me, and was slowly creeping out of my body. I started to feel like my breathing was automated. I started to feel incredibly different, almost as if my body was being purged of some evil, or that my spirit was physically being taken out of my body. This is when I sincerely became frightened, and forced myself to come back to reality. With a quick shudder, everything was back to normal; no whisps, no strange feeling, but an incredible urge to understand what just happened to me. Did I have an experience with God (at first, this was my conclusion, as I had been discussing the possibility of God and the validity of religion with a friend earlier that day)? Did I experience some sort of altered state of mind? Was I going insane again? Despite these thoughts echoing in the back of my head, I convinced myself to attempt to 'give in' to the feeling if it came back. I'm an explorer, what can I say? :cool:

I calm down. Attempting to clear my mind, I wait in anticipation for the whisps. After some on-the-spot experimentation (to be explained later), I figured out how to successfully and efficiently bring the whisps into my plane of vision. After about a minute of watching the whisps, the feeling came on again, but this time much stronger. Initially I tensed up, but remembering the promise I made to myself to push the limits of my consciousness, I allowed the feeling to overhaul me.

It felt as though my spirit was being pulled out the top of my head, and ascending above me into the night sky (which is odd, since I was inside). It felt as though my spirit was being pulled into the universe by some entity (for lack of a better word) and was showing me (metaphorically) the stars and the night sky. Although I was terrified at first, eventually I began to like the feeling. I thought about myself, and boom! - right back into my body. The entire time I had been 'out of body', I was aware of my physical body, but didn't necessarily have 'contact' with it. As soon as I intentionally thought about my physical body and where I was before I went 'traveling', I was brought back into my body, heart pounding, mind racing, and a general sense of "WTF just happened?".
So of course, I had questions coming out of the experience - most of them were:
"What the Hell just happened to me?"
Over time I began to realize that this was something special, and something that I should not take for granted. I became fascinated in alternate perceptions of what we see every day - literally a different way of looking at something. After some preliminary research, I decided that I had accidentally meditated. Odd, but I decided to continue exploring my mind and "training my brain". Every night (or nearly every night) for the next week or so, I would train myself to enter this transcendent state of mind in hopes of 'understanding something more'. Although this didn't really happen to me, I can say that it prepared me for the events take place in a few months.

Psychedelic experience:
I was asked at the beginning of the week (about three weeks ago) do have psychedelic experience with two close friends and another person that I had never met that coming Saturday. Being intrigued by the concept, I delightfully accepted the invitation; I was so excited, I could barely contain my enthusiasm for the upcoming experience.

Since it was everyone's first time, we decided not to go over the top, and split 1/4 ounce between four people (so roughly a half an 1/8 for each person, or 1.75 grams). I'll skip the unnecessary jargon of waiting for the trip to come, as the thread is intended more for personal evaluation and recreation for those interested (although if someone wants to hear the entire story, I would be more than willing to write it up if you ask).

Skip forward about 45 minutes. After some brief moments of very slight visuals (pictures would spiral in small separated groups [looked kind of like mini-galaxies swirling], slight tracers [wave your hand in front of your face and see 'particles' after it - like a time delay], and some double/triple vision [looking at my friend 'J', there seemed to be 2/3 of him right next to each other]) I started to get the creeping feeling. I was completely awestruck. Knowing exactly what to do, I let the feeling take over my body. The result was almost immediate: I skipped past the traveling, past the spirit, and right into myself. I looked at my feet (I was sitting down). I felt like the only person in the world. I felt like I was unstoppable, the creator of my own universe. Everything I felt and saw was only a product of my own perception, and I could change that perception into anything that pleased me. It's important to note that this particular feeling has still not left me: I still feel like the director of my own future, the master of my own universe, and solely responsible for the course of my life. It gets better.

Everyone was having pretty similar feelings, so we decided to get out of the somewhat cramped room and get away from all of the people (somehow around 10 people managed to end up in the same room, even though we specifically planned for only the four people taking the shrooms to be there). Walking around outside was the most wonderful feeling, and after some contemplation, I noticed something. It seemed as though everything I was thinking about wasn't filtered through any specific thought process. I'll try to explain what I mean.

Take a microscope, for example. What first pops into your head when you think about a microscope? Science, molecules, Biology, etc. When I were to think about 'microscope', I wouldn't think about it through the eyes of science. I viewed it simply as it was - a microscope - and didn't allow any of the preconceptions I had about microscopes to flood my thoughts. It was almost as if I was viewing only the objective truth of 'microscope', and all of my subjective truths about 'microscope' were not being used. The more and more I tested myself, the more this seemed to be true. I didn't get happy if I thought about a kitten, or sad if I though about death. I took them for what they were, no more, no less. Although this impartial judgement has since faded, I feel as though I now have a better understanding of how much we use our own subjectivity to create truths; and sometimes, unfortunately, we believe that these truths created by our subjectivity are actually the objective truth.

The rest of the trip was fun, but nothing (other than insignificant personal insights) really popped out at me. I did have some congruence with my thought process and other thoughts that I've had before, but it isn't meant for this thread: perhaps at a later date in a separate one. The experience was much different than what I expected - I thought it would be much more visual and trippy, and much less informative and happy. During the trip, I felt incredibly happy and important, and the person I didn't know before the experience also noted this, saying:
"The only thing that can ruin our moods right now is another person".

I know that this thread is kind of wall-of-texty, (which is subsequently why I separated it into spoilers), but I now have some questions to hopefully spark some debate/talking.

- What was your first time like taking hallucinogenic drugs?
- Have you ever experienced something similar to what I have? Was it while on drugs, or was it self-induced?
- Does anyone else feel similarly about subjectivity and objective truth?
- Is there actually objective truth, or is it impossible to understand?
- Any tips for future experiences?
- Any tips for meditation?
- Comments, concerns, questions?

And, of course, I thank anyone that takes the time to read this. With most of you being INTPs I know any article taking more than 3 minutes to read may be too much of a time investment :p
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
3,783
#2
@The Introvert

No objective truth exists, and even if it did, then we couldn't comprehend it because of Godel's theorems, the Is-Ought rule, and the infinite regress of definition.

-Duxwing
 
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
1,038
Location
L'eau
#3
No objective truth exists, and even if it did, then we couldn't comprehend it because of Godel's theorems, the Is-Ought rule, and the infinite regress of definition.

-Duxwing
What makes you certain no objective truth exists? Wouldn't the assertion (of either side, really) be in compromise to the very theorems that you've just used? That's fairly bold, especially coming from you, Dux.

I also think it should be known that this change in perspective is very recent for me. I think that there certainly is a possibility of objective truth, and that we as humans may be able to catch some glimpses of said truth.
 

Duxwing

I've Overcome Existential Despair
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
3,783
#4
By definition, all axiomatic systems of thought consist of statements held to be true despite not being demonstrated and the conclusions drawn therefrom. Logically, the axioms of any axiomatic system of thought determine the conclusions that can be derived from it. However, since one can arbitrarily select any number and kind of axioms, and since, by definition, axioms are held to be true despite not being demonstrated, one can use the same method-- holding various statements to be true despite their not being demonstrated-- to produce contradictory results. Therefore, one cannot determine whether one axiomatic system of thought is "objective truth," for the same method was used to create it as was used to create another axiomatic system of thought that entirely contradicts it. To analogize, taking an axiom is the same as firing a shot at a target that one cannot see.

-Duxwing

MANY edits have been made to this post.
 
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
1,038
Location
L'eau
#5
By definition, all axiomatic systems of thought consist of statements held to be true despite not being demonstrated and the conclusions drawn therefrom. Logically, the axioms of any axiomatic system of thought determine the conclusions that can be derived from it. However, since one can arbitrarily select any number and kind of axioms, and since, by definition, axioms are held to be true despite not being demonstrated, one can use the same method-- holding various statements to be true despite their not being demonstrated-- to produce contradictory results. Therefore, one cannot determine whether one axiomatic system of thought is "objective truth," for the same method was used to create it as was used to create another axiomatic system of thought that entirely contradicts it. To analogize, taking an axiom is the same as firing a shot at a target that one cannot see.

-Duxwing

MANY edits have been made to this post.
Your argument comes from a humanistic standpoint; you are essentially attempting to logically disprove something that by definition defies logic. For objective truth to exist, it must do so outside the realm of human comprehension. Therefore, it is meaningless to attempt to apply logic to a system in which logic holds no weight.

What does this mean, then? Let's go over the points:

  • Human logic does not apply to objective truth, if it exists
  • No axioms can be assumed in reference to objective truth, if it exists
  • The reason for objective truth lies outside the realm of human comprehension, if it exists
Note: I understand that technically, the above is a list of axioms and an attempt to understand objective truth. Essentially, it's contradictory of itself. I argue, however, that the dismissal of axioms is not in and of itself an axiomatic statement. This may come back to bite me in the ass...
 

joal0503

Psychedelic INTP
Local time
Today, 16:14
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
700
#6
if there is such a thing as objective truth, id bank on the egyptians take on it.

Ma'at

btw, glad to hear you enjoyed the experience!
 
Local time
Today, 17:14
Joined
Mar 21, 2013
Messages
10
#7
The self induced "trip" or so to speak. Is what I think a form of OBE. When researching into lucid dreaming I came across some websites or manuals noting that if you lie still in your bed for like 15 minutes you will start lucid dreaming. If I remember correctly. A good source on this kind of OBE can be found here: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/out-of-body-experiences.html

Hope this can help you with your "problem" or maybe even "blessing".
 
Local time
Today, 18:14
Joined
Dec 30, 2011
Messages
333
Location
Over the Hills and Far Away
#8
I think the very ideas of "objective" and "truth" are subjective and Human. I don't think the question of whether there is such a thing is relevant to Humans.
I guess you could say that there are "truths" which are common to most Humans, which is as close as you're going to get to an answer. For example: I'm sure everyone believes that there is some sort of existence, that is a "truth" which is shared by everyone, but it still exists only as a human concept, it has no objective "truth" to it.
 

7even

Active Member
Local time
Today, 17:14
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
368
#9
What practical application would an objective truth even have within a subjective realm? :confused:

I don't believe in objective truth, or if it exists, it can't be known. All I know is we live in a subjective realm, and solipsism is the only realistic assumption I can make.

Anyhow, in response to the OP, I've also experienced (more or less) self-induced hallucinogenic states.

One night, I got back home after a smoke session with a few friends, switched off the lights, and laid on my bed gazing at my ceiling. Strangely enough, I also started seeing green ribbon-like waves floating across the room aimlessly and chaotically - I figured they were spirits/ghosts of some kind. I was very intrigued but started feeling extremely anxious after a while; I thought I was becoming permanently insane, and felt a very evil presence in the room - so I turned around and buried my face in my pillow for a few seconds; then having calmed down, curiosity forced me to look back up, so I did. The green wave-like ribbons remained there, but this time, everything just got much weirder.

A giant hellhound with glowing red eyes, stood right by my bed and was staring at me. At first I was incredibly perplexed, and analyzed it. I had a desire to touch it, so very slowly, I extended my hand towards it; while it just remain static, but breathing heavily and focused on me. During this, an even stronger fear drove through me, and now, I was really fucking freaked out, and couldn't take it anymore, so just buried my face in my pillow until I fell asleep. According to legend, staring into a hellhounds eyes 3 times would have resulted in a curse leading to death, so I guess I made the right decision. :D

EDIT: Perhaps this was the realm of spirits?

There was also another time (I had a smoke sesh the night before), where the hallucinations emerged as soon as I've woken up from (hours of) sleep in broad daylight. I woke up, opened my eyes, sprung forward a bit, and saw a 3D holographic image of Earth slowly revolving; lasers were moving across it and seemed to be pinpointing specific locations (I don't remember which) - it gradually started to fade away. Anyway, this experience, in contrast to the last, was very enjoyable.
 
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
1,038
Location
L'eau
#11
The self induced "trip" or so to speak. Is what I think a form of OBE. When researching into lucid dreaming I came across some websites or manuals noting that if you lie still in your bed for like 15 minutes you will start lucid dreaming. If I remember correctly. A good source on this kind of OBE can be found here: http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/out-of-body-experiences.html

Hope this can help you with your "problem" or maybe even "blessing".
I don't consider it a problem: quite to the contrary.
 
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
1,038
Location
L'eau
#12
I think the very ideas of "objective" and "truth" are subjective and Human. I don't think the question of whether there is such a thing is relevant to Humans.
I guess you could say that there are "truths" which are common to most Humans, which is as close as you're going to get to an answer. For example: I'm sure everyone believes that there is some sort of existence, that is a "truth" which is shared by everyone, but it still exists only as a human concept, it has no objective "truth" to it.
Truth is indeed a creation of human creativity. However, I don't really think that gets to the point of what I mean by objective truth.

I guess I would define truth as something that is not subject to variation. Whether or not this exists in reality (using the term lightly) or only as a technicality would be a point of debate, I suppose.
 
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
1,038
Location
L'eau
#14
FYI: 'twas a state of meditation. A clear head, for once.

And @Duxwing I'm disappointed you fled after my last reply to you :/
 

TimeAsylums

Prolific Member
Local time
Today, 09:14
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
3,129
#15
I was thinking about wasn't filtered through any specific thought process. I'll try to explain what I mean...
See my Subvocalization post. Go to that link and read post/comment #6
it begins with 1. subvocalization (or just click link and cntrl f (find) subvocalization.


Also, as for the 'self-induced' state: that sounds 100% like me when I'm lucid dreaming. And your 'whisps' sound like eye floaters.
 

kantor1003

Prolific Member
Local time
Today, 16:14
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
1,573
Location
Norway
#16
I'm wondering, did you ever get the overwhelming feeling of immensity caused by suddenly getting a sense of seeing reality like it is, in it's unspeakable, unfathomable wholeness, almost like you had been wearing foggy glasses since your childhood only now to have them taken off? Sometimes I am lucky enough to experience this and it is total bliss. Every thing is dripping with meaning, with importance, with significance, with the overwhelming fact that these men, sitting beside you, or this room - or whatever else enters your visual field - are no different from that which, or those whom you read about in beautiful prose - their desires, their drives, their thoughts, their existential struggles - captured in literature, or seen in movies, but only as the other. As the observer. But now they are noticed as being here right now, for you, in this transitory, but at the same time timeless moment. It is properly experienced as subject, and not mediated through second hand experience with you digesting as some removed observer. Because of this, every observed event being so powerful, it feels like being in a movie - Big Fish comes to mind - beautiful beyond words. In fact, it saddens me that I can't explain it, or can't reenter that mode of perception at will. I can only hope that some have experienced it and that my words somehow make them able to remember.
I don't know if this is related, but I believe it is; in such a state, I could also notice how my conceptual scheme altered the way things, in this case, a face in particular, appeared to me. Being aware of it, it caused unconscious, but later conscious shifts in how I saw him. I saw that his face was overlapped, or constituted of something in addition - this something, I think, was my beliefs about him; dismantling then, the belief about him that was no other than prejudice and wishful thinking, his face changed. I wouldn't call it hallucination. If that term is to be used at all, I would instead say that I am hallucinating all the time; belief projects appearance. This time I happened to notice that it does. Obviously, any intellectual exercise of understanding is not sufficient to become aware of it, or to create any real understanding. Agreeing with the proposition that belief projects appearance, or understanding through reason, or any act of imagination that it could, is not enough. It must be experienced.
 
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
1,038
Location
L'eau
#17
See my Subvocalization post. Go to that link and read post/comment #6
it begins with 1. subvocalization (or just click link and cntrl f (find) subvocalization.
This is almost dead on.

One thing that I'm not sure if I mentioned in the OP is that the feeling was similar to the mushrooms in that it felt as though I was seeing everything 'as is'. This would be the loss of subvocalization, which was apparent in both experiences.

I have actually had the experience before, as well, and I just now remembered it (I think I even made a thread about that one as well). And you know what? It was this thread:
http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=14849

Wow. Can't believe I forgot about that one. I think you're completely right when you propose that subvocalization is introversion whereas extroversion is the absence of it (or at least less of it). I thought the same thing, just made more of a point about the extroversion and less about the actual process of losing your subvocalization.

Also, as for the 'self-induced' state: that sounds 100% like me when I'm lucid dreaming. And your 'whisps' sound like eye floaters.
I've been trying really hard lately to lucid dream, but to no avail. A few times recently I've realized I'm dreaming, but wake up immediately afterwards :/

As for the eye floaters, I actually have those (and have had them since I was little, I think). It's been a long enough time that I can't exactly recall what I was seeing, but it didn't cross my mind that it was something I was used to seeing.

I don't think they were floaters because they were changing shapes, whereas the ones I normally have keep their same shape and always stay in the same angle in my eye (if I look in a different direction they remain equidistant from my cornea, which requires a change in where they appear to be in the visual plane, but not in reference to where my eye is looking). I know that doesn't make sense but I can't figure out how else to explain it.

But, in short; I agree with your subvocalization post, and I believe that I was in a state of meditation. I think that it may very well be a more 'direct route' from sensing to your brain (ie: experiencing my inferior Se, which was mentioned in that post). I've also read 'studies' suggesting that taking some psychedelic drugs (p. cubensis) has been known to 'simplify' the wiring in your brain (make a more direct path from sensing to understanding) which again would correlate with all of the above.
 

TimeAsylums

Prolific Member
Local time
Today, 09:14
Joined
May 9, 2013
Messages
3,129
#18
Glad to know I could help @TI.
ENTP here, Ne dom has to consider all of the possibilities haha.
I'll keep looking into it.
 
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
1,038
Location
L'eau
#19
I'm wondering, did you ever get the overwhelming feeling of immensity caused by suddenly getting a sense of seeing reality like it is, in it's unspeakable, unfathomable wholeness, almost like you had been wearing foggy glasses since your childhood only now to have them taken off?
That's an oddly specific description! HAve you by chance experienced something similar? :D (rhetorical)

But to answer your question: yes. The part in the OP about the microscope was an attempt to visualize that feeling.
Sometimes I am lucky enough to experience this and it is total bliss. Every thing is dripping with meaning, with importance, with significance, with the overwhelming fact that these men, sitting beside you, or this room - or whatever else enters your visual field - are no different from that which, or those whom you read about in beautiful prose - their desires, their drives, their thoughts, their existential struggles - captured in literature, or seen in movies, but only as the other.
Now, I have those moments (dripping with meaning) all the time. What made this moment special was that it was also a shift in perception, physically. I could feel my body in a completely different way;my perception was changed both mentally and physically.
As the observer. But now they are noticed as being here right now, for you, in this transitory, but at the same time timeless moment. It is properly experienced as subject, and not mediated through second hand experience with you digesting as some removed observer. Because of this, every observed event being so powerful, it feels like being in a movie - Big Fish comes to mind - beautiful beyond words. In fact, it saddens me that I can't explain it, or can't reenter that mode of perception at will. I can only hope that some have experienced it and that my words somehow make them able to remember.
You can't explain it, but trust me. I know exactly what you're talking about, and I understand exactly what you mean. We should stop trying to explain it and start trying to figure out how to get back to that moment :)
I don't know if this is related, but I believe it is; in such a state, I could also notice how my conceptual scheme altered the way things, in this case, a face in particular, appeared to me.
I like to take it a step further and think how my thoughts (and subsequently actions) directly change both my perception and others' perceptions of the world. Quite literally, our thoughts - abstract, undefined, and irregular as they are - directly (or indirectly :confused:) impact the world around us and everyone else. That's a wonderful insight to truly understand.
I wouldn't call it hallucination. If that term is to be used at all, I would instead say that I am hallucinating all the time; belief projects appearance.
True, but what is to say when everyone sees the same appearance? Yes, your perception alters reality, but not usually as much as this sentence seems to imply.
This time I happened to notice that it does. Obviously, any intellectual exercise of understanding is not sufficient to become aware of it, or to create any real understanding. Agreeing with the proposition that belief projects appearance, or understanding through reason, or any act of imagination that it could, is not enough. It must be experienced.
I'm one to argue that every human needs to experience at least one moment like this in their lives, whether it be from meditation, use of psychedelics, or others. It's definitely worth experiencing.
 
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
5,026
#20
I'm wondering, did you ever get the overwhelming feeling of immensity caused by suddenly getting a sense of seeing reality like it is, in it's unspeakable, unfathomable wholeness, almost like you had been wearing foggy glasses since your childhood only now to have them taken off? Sometimes I am lucky enough to experience this and it is total bliss. Every thing is dripping with meaning, with importance, with significance, with the overwhelming fact that these men, sitting beside you, or this room - or whatever else enters your visual field - are no different from that which, or those whom you read about in beautiful prose - their desires, their drives, their thoughts, their existential struggles - captured in literature, or seen in movies, but only as the other. As the observer. But now they are noticed as being here right now, for you, in this transitory, but at the same time timeless moment. It is properly experienced as subject, and not mediated through second hand experience with you digesting as some removed observer. Because of this, every observed event being so powerful, it feels like being in a movie - Big Fish comes to mind - beautiful beyond words. In fact, it saddens me that I can't explain it, or can't reenter that mode of perception at will. I can only hope that some have experienced it and that my words somehow make them able to remember.
Can you relate to parts 1-4?: http://www.intpforum.com/converse.php?u=2306&u2=5841

This reminds me very much of "you 'know' automatically, consistently for an extended period of time and the insight is actually right; in fact dead on, repeatedly. The vibe says person X will shortly order the veggie sub with mozzarella for lunch and as if on command, it is so"
It's definitely worth experiencing.
What level did you reach? http://www.shroomery.org/6255/Trip-Reports
 
Local time
Today, 11:14
Joined
Dec 8, 2012
Messages
1,038
Location
L'eau
#21
Difficult to say, because the timing was a bit strange (we got up and left mid trip, as well as a funny "oh shit moment" when it was daylight savings and we lost an hour in the middle of the night).

I would say between 2-3. From what I've talked about with the others, they seemed around that area as well, although I had a bit more visuals than they did.

I actually just contacted my friend earlier today about doing it again, soon...

First experience was in early March.
 
Top Bottom