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Regarding Indoctrination

Thurlor

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I have heard many people excuse the behaviour of others by claiming that such behaviour is not their fault because they were indoctrinated.

A few things about that have always struck me as wrong.

- We see people who have escaped their indoctrination, so it can be done. Either they are special people or those who haven't escaped don't want to escape.

- Not everyone is susceptible to indoctrination. Do they possess (or lack) something others don't?

- Most of the people I know who make such excuses also seem to believe in free will. The two don't seem to fit together.


So, do you all see indoctrination as a valid excuse for behaviour? If so, how do you respond to the above points?
 

Cognisant

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Fuck no if you know you're indoctrinated you know what you're doing is wrong.

If someone apologized to me saying they did wrong by me in the past because they were indoctrinated that would be different, they saw the flaw in their behaviour and are trying to make amends for it. If it kept happening because they kept falling back into bad habits/mindset I wouldn't just accept their apology, I'd grill them a bit, I'd make them work for my forgiveness because after the first time they can't rightly expect me to accept their apology at face value.

But if they use being indoctrinated as an excuse in the present tense that's a scumbag, that's someone who's just trying to make you say you forgive them. They don't care whether or not you actually forgive them, they don't care about your thoughts or feelings, they're trying to manipulate you like you're a videogame NPC.

Edit: I missed the "of others" bit.
 

sushi

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fuck, thats a funny excuse. indoctrinated people usually are not aware they are indoctrinated.

Its like the winter soldier in captain america.
 

Jennywocky

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Everyone is indoctrinated -- we are all given a foundation and framework just from being born into a certain culture, a certain body, a certain time period. It limits the information we are given. So I don't fault anyone for what they're born into it, we all have a starting point in life.

BUT

we're responsible for examining what we've been given, testing it, learning from it, stretching it, pulling at it, determining whether or not it seems to make sense and is true, whether it leads to things that seem harmful or hurtful (although again, our definitions of such sometimes are affected by our culture), and so forth.

Just for personal examples: I was raised to believe in a particular religious faith, and i had no access to information to challenge that world view based on the location and time period. I disregarded some of the teachings based on what I saw as making little sense but otherwise accepted the stuff that made sense at the time. However, when I left that area and was exposed to other others as a young adult, then I found my views starting to change. It came from a drive to make sure that what I believed made as coherent a picture as I could formulate in life. So my views continue to change even a few decades later. I don't consider myself in a "fixed" state of being, even if at this point I believe a lot has settled out and what I believe now is in some ways very different from what I believed when I was 15. To me, that is taking responsibility for my own values and beliefs rather than just running with my indoctrination / starting point in life.

What is interesting to me is that you just need some kind of value system to expose the deficiencies in the worldview you are given. For me, my litmus test was rationality. For my mother (who seriously is one of the least cerebral people I know, and I'm not being condescending, it's just not how she operates), her value system is her sense of suffering in the world and who is being hurt. She was raised steeped in the same religious value system, but I've seen her quietly challenge the things she was being told because what was being promoted were things that hurt people she loved. So her values involved being true to people she cared about and wanting to alleviate suffering, versus voting a certain way or promoting particular religious values that caused pain. It took me some time to grasp that about her but in her own way she has also challenged her own upbringing and taken responsibility for her beliefs.

Anyway: I can see "indoctrination" as a reason, but I don't necessarily see it as an "excuse" especially if there are notable crux points where someone was in a position and even inclined to challenge their own views but just took the easy way out by embracing the familiar out of convenience or self-indulgence. I would be especially leery when the price to be paid for one's beliefs and convenience must be paid by OTHERS; I think one has to be paying the price oneself for whatever values one has.
 

Black Rose

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It is more important whether the indoctrination is conducent with critical thinking or not. Indoctrination is simply a belief system and that is not a fault. It depends on if everything actually works with reality or not. Some don't work, others do.
 

ZenRaiden

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How do you define indoctrination?
You seem to define it as something wrong. Which it always is not. Sometimes it is actually good.

I think indoctrination becomes a problem when it is used as solution for all types of problems.
Then it comes down to people who are not indoctrinated to see better more optimal solutions.

Life is too complicated to solve different problems with same set of things. Sometimes problems that exist need very different solutions.
 

BurnedOut

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I have heard many people excuse the behaviour of others by claiming that such behaviour is not their fault because they were indoctrinated.

...

- We see people who have escaped their indoctrination, so it can be done. Either they are special people or those who haven't escaped don't want to escape.

Escaping indoctrination is difficult but possible. Indoctrination happens on a regular basis in subtle ways. Do you find yourself going to youtube.com almost automatically when you know that there are going to be other websites containing other interesting stuff (and they usually do). This seems like a trivial example but it makes sense.

When someone says that they were indoctrinated while they did certain hindering things, it is okay to forgive them when you can see all the signs of genuineness - body language, phraseology, events that occurred etcetera.



- Not everyone is susceptible to indoctrination. Do they possess (or lack) something others don't?
They possess experience and/or antecedence due to accumulation of knowledge. It is possible to resist indoctrination. I myself have broken free from the indoctrination of the 'click your pic, expose your dick to everybody' culture due to perseverance which came at a social cost. But it was worth it.

- Most of the people I know who make such excuses also seem to believe in free will. The two don't seem to fit together.
Being free occurs after being taken. Valid ?

So, do you all see indoctrination as a valid excuse for behaviour? If so, how do you respond to the above points?
The Dhammapada of the Buddhist says 'There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels.'

Forgiving someone is difficult when they have transgressed you once. When they do it multiple times, it is better to let them go. But when someone has transgressed you under circumstances wherein they really were not thinking rationally, it is okay to accept them back. Either ways, in the time span of their absence/abusive, you would have forged a deeper/new bond with existing ones/ new ones.
 
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