• OK, it's on.
  • Please note that many, many Email Addresses used for spam, are not accepted at registration. Select a respectable Free email.

pre-existent frameworks

Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
192
#1
This will perhaps sound extremely arrogant at first but I think it is not an uncommon phenomenon.

Did you ever reinvent the wheel and come up with solipsism or existentialism or pantheism or holism or reductionism or something similar "on your own." when you were younger. (14-16 years old or so) only to discover the term later and say "Oh I had thought of something like that although I had never phrased it so elegantly. They hit the nail on the head!" I say "on your own" in quotes because even if you had never heard of existentialism you were still exposed to its influences through cartoons and music when you were little etc. Sesame street had an episode where they made fun of "Waiting for Godot." Hey Arnold had an episode about "No Exit." by Sarte

I think these ideas seep in slowly when you're young and you mull them over slowly at an almost unconscious level, thinking about different aspects. When I was younger there was a moment I remember when I was maybe 5 years old when I suddenly came to the realization that I was me and I would never not be me. It was a first brush with individualism and human lonliness and desperation, of course I didn't have the vocabulary, let alone cognitive abilities to sort through these feelings. Another time in the first grade a friend of mine rediscovered irony when we wrote short stories in first grade. "It was a bright and sunny day when the nice giant was kicked out of the town." He said aloud. I was stunned by the brilliance of it because by age six I had already seen 100 kids movies and knew damn well it was supposed to be dark and rainy when the giant got kicked out of town. Again, I didn't understand that there was a specific word for irony until I was in middle school. When I was ten I remember learning about negative numbers and simply not believing in them, in fact it's still a difficult concept for me to grasp.

When you are young you do not have preconceived notions about what irony is or about what liberty is or about what it is to be passive aggressive. In this way you rediscover each revelation in an entirely novel way, only to later find out the term or theory that explains this revelation.


Now-a-days I talk about theories with other people and what I thought was original is always reduced to "oh that's buddhism or pantheism you're talking about." It's like it's impossible to have an original idea, I start off with a trajectory from my home planet of my mind and maybe the trajectory is halfway between bitterness and nihilism but it's an emotional bearing fueled by thinking. The gravity of other massive ideas always pull my ship into their planets. I'll end up getting sucked into "nihilism" or whatever it is even when I set out with an original notion. It's easy for these predetermined entities of thought to grow and grow until I can't get an original thought out, it just gets absorbed into some other theoretical framework.

This happened to me with MBTI as I'm guessing it may have happened to some of you also. I am now no longer able to give a compliment without it being a manifestation of my tertiary Fe (I'm ENTP) if you know what I mean. I'll start out with a perfectly free and original thought/emotion like "I like driving in my car with the air conditioning off even though it's hot." and the thought immediately gets sucked into a pre-existent theoretical framework as I instantly label this thought as an expression of extraverted sensing or as a failure of mine to fight against Hedonism or as a deficiency in Dopamine making me cold natured. Whatever existent ideology is clogging up my mind gets fed more and more until it is crowded out by the next thing. I cannot invent my own puny theoretical frameworks like I used to in highschool when I was more ignorant of others' more well thought out frameworks.

I feel that in today's society people instantly blurt out their insights as a facebook status or a post on INTP forum or a tweet. There is simply not as much time to develop a truly unique and well thought out worldview, there's no time for meditation. I'm bombarded by new ideas on stumble upon or youtube or whatever it is. I'm not going to turn this into a rant about the attention span of our generation I just wanted to know if you guys have the same problem with pre-existent theoretical frameworks clogging up your thought processes until you settle on calling something post-modernist when it really had potential to be something else.
 

EyeSeeCold

lust for life
Joined
Aug 12, 2010
Messages
7,845
Location
California, USA
#2
Hmm. Resemblance is disheartening.

I came up with a few things as a kid and realized they existed already. But most recently I discovered pantheism and Taoism; I have documented these realizations on this forum at various times. My personal pantheism was refined after coming to this forum, although I came to the realization while still in high school.

I discovered pantheism through the realization that all things are part of nature and nature is a part of all things. This has an effect on all living things - they are limited by the laws and patterns of nature, which, most universal, is death. Therefore I concluded simplistically: Nature is God.

I discovered Taoism as a sort of defense mechanism to control my surroundings. I realized that no one was safe from unpredictability, but amplified this to deduce that it is futile to seek any sort of control. While this is true, it is a fatalistic view, as the inability to escape unpredictability does not necessarily mean control is not manageable to a certain extent.

I think humans come to these similar frameworks because deep down we are similar in essence - the Introverted essence. The human condition never changes because we are the same where it counts. Our processual pipes will forever encode output with the original Human codec.
 

Moocow

Semantic Nitpicker
Joined
Nov 21, 2009
Messages
920
Location
Moocow
#3
Plenty of people think up the same ideas, but it's the first one to properly write about it that gets credit.
It's putting an unreasonable amount of pressure on yourself to have original achievements. "Originality" is just another framework that you've been indoctrinated into, partly because we study individual authors as if they are the original sources of what they write about.

Although, please be careful to ensure you are aware of the detailed connotations of each term like "nihilism" and "pantheism."

I suppose as an ENTP it would be harder for you to avoid thinking in terms of these general, summarized frameworks. I just learned recently that one of my big ideas is already known as structuralism. It doesn't stop me from appreciating what I'm doing and learning, for its own sake.
 
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
192
#4
Plenty of people think up the same ideas, but it's the first one to properly write about it that gets credit.
It's putting an unreasonable amount of pressure on yourself to have original achievements. "Originality" is just another framework that you've been indoctrinated into, partly because we study individual authors as if they are the original sources of what they write about.

Although, please be careful to ensure you are aware of the detailed connotations of each term like "nihilism" and "pantheism."

I suppose as an ENTP it would be harder for you to avoid thinking in terms of these general, summarized frameworks. I just learned recently that one of my big ideas is already known as structuralism. It doesn't stop me from appreciating what I'm doing and learning, for its own sake.
Yes being an ENTP means I'm constantly trying to be original and be recognized; being driven by an overwhelming desperation for everyone to recognize how awesome I am.
 
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
192
#5
Hmm. Resemblance is disheartening.

I came up with a few things as a kid and realized they existed already. But most recently I discovered pantheism and Taoism; I have documented these realizations on this forum at various times. My personal pantheism was refined after coming to this forum, although I came to the realization while still in high school.

I discovered pantheism through the realization that all things are part of nature and nature is a part of all things. This has an effect on all living things - they are limited by the laws and patterns of nature, which, most universal, is death. Therefore I concluded simplistically: Nature is God.

I discovered Taoism as a sort of defense mechanism to control my surroundings. I realized that no one was safe from unpredictability, but amplified this to deduce that it is futile to seek any sort of control. While this is true, it is a fatalistic view, as the inability to escape unpredictability does not necessarily mean control is not manageable to a certain extent.

I think humans come to these similar frameworks because deep down we are similar in essence - the Introverted essence. The human condition never changes because we are the same where it counts. Our processual pipes will forever encode output with the original Human codec.
Yes I think we are essentially the same in a lot of ways. Just interesting to me how words can be limiting not because they don't exist (if a word for something doesn't exist yet that's somewhat limiting) but also because they DO exist. If there is a word for something already it stifles the nuance of your own idea.

Oh well ultimately it's all a means of deferring loneliness for me at least.
 
Joined
Apr 5, 2011
Messages
69
#9
"halfway between bitterness and nihilism"

Endorphins were released when I read this.

Personally I have come up with (mostly when I was younger 9-17 [now])

"We can't know anything"
"inevitability theory,"
"it's all atoms man"
"Nothing, like, fundamentally matters"
"Where does the universe come from"
"But the universe can't just pop out of nowhere"
"How do I know logic works?"
"Maybe we can't explain everything because we're limited to 3d/ exist in a VR machine that isn't all of reality." Maybe the universe has different laws than those we can see.



Recently I read the idea, which I have never heard from anyone else before, that the universe cannot be infinitely old because an infinite amount of time would have to have passed for us to be now, in spaceyeti's blog and a lot more articulately than I have ever formulated it.


A few things off the top of my head which I rarely or never hear from others but probably will in Good time:

A lot of language is bullshit: Nothing is "good." There are things I like and there are things which are suited to tasks. No such thing as "deserving" "unnaceptable" "know." I'm even bothered writing this sentence by I. Instead of a theory of personal identity, I have a bullshit model to keep me sane, which basically goes, "imagine there's a soul." "I doubt therefore I think therefore I am" doesn't prove to me. How do "you" know "you" doubt? How do you know the feeling of doubt is different from the feeling of knowng. How do you know what doubt is without the context of a presupposed I?

Warning: stream of consciousnes. The following is up because I typed it out. Not sure how relevant it is.

I feel like I'm getting swallowed by standard definitions and standard ways of thinking by "common sense" The more I try to change my innefective thought patterns the better I do, the more accepted I am, etc, but frankly the worse I think. Compared to a year ago I write like shit but I get better grades because I have worked at taking the bullshit my teacher tells me seriously. The distinction between "quote something and say whatever the fuck you want about it and you will get marks" and "you need to provide evidence" is becoming blurred (that one not so much, but I don't have the self awareness to think of any that have already slipped in and all that other bullshit. I think part of the problem is that I'm integrating my emotions into my thinking to an extent so i don't just sit around and think (until I get to uni to study philosophy :D [fuck, there it is, "study" what a ridiculous word]). It feels like a betrayal. It is a betrayal. TL:DR the standard paradigms are slowly seeping into my mind.

Here's an example: I used to worry the world i saw was not real, that it was a vr machine or something, everyone some vaguely demonic entity out to torment me, together (yes I was bullied, lol) I now think of that as silly but really there's no reason to other than years of people (especially adults) telling me they "know" this is the real world, years of common sense.


For the record 0.9 recurring doesn't (shouldn't) =1.

(well it does in standard maths, because it is defined that way, but it shouldn't because it doesn't make sense that it does.)

"I feel that in today's society people instantly blurt out their insights as a facebook status or a post on INTP forum or a tweet. There is simply not as much time to develop a truly unique and well thought out worldview, there's no time for meditation. I'm bombarded by new ideas on stumble upon or youtube or whatever it is. I'm not going to turn this into a rant about the attention span of our generation I just wanted to know if you guys have the same problem with pre-existent theoretical frameworks clogging up your thought processes until you settle on calling something post-modernist when it really had potential to be something else. "

This should be higher up, can't be bothered to rearrange it for structure now though

Yes i do. It's something I'm very aware of. My view on the matter is don't settle. You don't have to. Maybe I'm only able to say this because I'm young: I'm certainly more clogged up than I was when I was younger. While I'm always rationally aware that I don't know there are many things I've psychologically accepted as fact I don't think I should have. I can't even name any. Properly embedded in my thinking system. Maybe all I'll have is frameworks in a few years. What a depressing thought. I think the important thing (to avoid this) is to always be aware that anything anyone (textbook, well documented field of research etc) tells you is a model to adopt at most, not a fact, traditions that it's easier to provisionally go along with than it is to think it all through for yourself.
 
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Messages
192
#11
Recently I read the idea, which I have never heard from anyone else before, that the universe cannot be infinitely old because an infinite amount of time would have to have passed for us to be now, in spaceyeti's blog and a lot more articulately than I have ever formulated it.
This is basically one of zeno's paradoxes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeno's_paradoxes

If an infinite time passed before now it was comprised of an infinite amount of instantaneous moments each of which was "now" or "the present moment" at that time. (1000 AD was "now" in 1000 AD) Meaning any moment along the continuum of infinite time presumably was the present at some point. Why can't the moment immediately preceeding our present moment be one of those points (the last point) on that continuum of infinite time. And if that were the case that would imply that this moment is "after" an infinity. The confusing point is that the next future moment will also be "after" an infinity, it will simply be after a slightly different infinity

There could very well be an infinite amount of time behind us and it still be now. Anyways infinities always trip me up so I could be wrong.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2011
Messages
39
Location
Vancouver
#13
I think that good teaching, writing art etc. should make me feel like I invented every concept. :D When something become clear rather than having it makes the process and concept feel native.

it seems less likely to me that I have more eureka moments than any other human in the history of the world. Once an idea reaches a level of popular penetration it is out there in the ether and we as modern people are informed by them without even being aware of it. Example: Market Capitalism defines more of the world than it did during the time of Marx. Modern left of center parties draw at least some of their governing philosophy from Marxism, or if you are old enough to remember the cold war Communist abroad influenced domestic policy which influences us. So an idea that was radical and unique becomes so much a part of the discussions that they are transmitted in tiny pieces everyday. Putting those pieces together rather than waiting to be told how they fit is what separates a true student from the rest of the world. Or so I feel.
 
Joined
Apr 19, 2012
Messages
454
Location
Florida
#14
I think that good teaching, writing art etc. should make me feel like I invented every concept. :D When something become clear rather than having it makes the process and concept feel native.
Don't know if you're still even around, but I really like this point. I have been trying to write more recently (short stories and such) and that is something that is really hard to do. To come up with a plot and characters that are illustrative of your worldview while still enticing and interesting enough to drive you forward through the story is really tough. I have such a huge respect for great authors.
 
Joined
Oct 23, 2015
Messages
1
#15
Don't know if you're still even around, but I really like this point. I have been trying to write more recently (short stories and such) and that is something that is really hard to do. To come up with a plot and characters that are illustrative of your worldview while still enticing and interesting enough to drive you forward through the story is really tough. I have such a huge respect for great authors.
For me, that's often been the easiest part of the writing/thinking/creative process is formulating my sociopolitical views into my work in an engaging way -or so I've been told by my mentors- but the problem I deal with (stop me if I'm in the wrong thread here) is when explaining and exploring my work, it's compared to everything under the sun.

"Oh, you simply must've seen or read about this ideal in order to formulate the basis for your work's ideology!" It bothers me simply because there is no such thing for me when I write, or map out a sociopolitical construct for my stories; I don't look into Dualism, Stalinism or any of the other isms often albeit rarely presented after I give my premise. I make it all up -that's rather to say, I refer back to my own observations of the world; not a prerecorded theory panned out by dead men-

at the worst, I'm often -and wrongly- compared to some franchise or series that I either know nothing about, or know enough about to completely avoid everything it's already presented. I feel as though it's done simply because I simply 'had to' have it as the basis for my work, or the train of thought in my work. It's honestly debilitating for me to constantly be compared to an existing construct; because I feel as though the individual making said companions has in their comparison barred any further access as to the uniqueness of the train of thought I've created in every case.

it's even worse that I feel as though I've been forced to shoehorn references into the discussion to avoid this problem of comparison. I will say however it makes me feel cheated and cheap, like I've sold out my work to appease some mass mindset of in individualistic cult of thought. When I use a comparison from a previously established construct; I honestly feel like I'm stealing it; and robbing my ideals of their own respective narrative.

lastly I should apologize for my lack of class, social media has hindered my thought structure -which is why I no longer use it.
 

Seteleechete

Together forever
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
1,312
Location
our brain
#16
Don't shoehorn references that you don't agree with and don't be bothered by shoehorning ones that fit, what matters is that you get your message across whether it already exists or not is irrelevant. Someone somewhere has probably thought of what you have thought( or something closely related).

One thing you can do is highlight the uniqueness of your work compared to the comparison though this unfortunately would probably have to be done in hindsight. Also some people are just not open minded enough to see the differences if such exist.

http://intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=22743
this thread might be of some minor interest.
 
Top Bottom